|
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Hey guys! My first posting-hope you are all well!
Just read cliff d's topic on strings...
I play out solo, and with another singer, and my playing is very percussive to fill things out and give the "illusion" of a drummer-I do a lot of "thumping" on the guitar/stings with my right hand, aside from normal strumming. My style works really well for the rock music we play (along with throwing in small "bass lines") and makes the music groove, but I'm busting strings left and right. I've tried mixing string sets (normally use d'addario ej38-lights, I think) with some heavier guages on the ones that often break, but that gets really expensive buying 2+ sets for each guitar each show. Have recently bought another guitar as "backup" to make it through a set (have an elite 12 and now adamas 12). Though I'm really demanding on the guitar, I'm not violently beating the crap out of it as hard as it may seem (in words), it's just the nature of the style. Of course, sweating gallons doesn't help either.
My question is, can I put a full heavier set on my 12's without killing the neck? Or is there another solution (Um, yeah, uh....John, be nicer to the guitar? Looooooove the strings). I don't know the "max" guage for these guitars, and don't want to hurt them.
Anyway, my Ovations hold up like dream, and I love 'em-been playing them for years. I also have a Custom Legend 6 string for the "tender" side of my playing!!!!
All the best to you all!!!! And thanks for any input! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | John;
It sounds like you and I have very similar playing styles (Pete Townshend meets Ted Williams).
So.........how many D'Addario "Player's Points" do YOU have!?!?!?!?!
I think I may have developed a solution:
I'm gonna have my Ovation fitted with small spools of raw string stock and feed it up through the saddle. Then when I break a string I can just "feed" it out like on a Weed Whacker! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | You'll be able to go up a gauge on your Ovations without a problem, but there's another approach worth experimenting with for 12-string. You could try custom-making a very heavy set, Starting with maybe a 15 or 16 and going to around a 68 on the low E, and tune down to A or B. Listen to Peter Case's recent albums especialy "Torn Again" to hear a 12-string tuned like that. Even though the strings are massive the low tension makes them feel like a regular set at normal pitch. It becomes a whole new instrument, you have to re-think your chord voicings somewhat, and the side-effect is that the strings will last for ages.
Paul
[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | First a question, are you playing acoustic with no amplification?
If so, maybe you should think about moving to an amplified sound, that will give you the volume you need and there are many ways to preserve the acoustic sound. If you are playing amplified, work on your mix.
And, of course, consider Paul's suggestion on heavier strings, and think about picks.
Cliff
When you perfect your string feeder, I'll have it installed on my son's guitars.
Bailey
[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bailey ] |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Bailey;
It pretty much happens in both circumstances.
When I play with the full-blown rock band carnation, I can pretty much "crank up" the volume more (thanks to the big, rubber "Feedback Buster" plug) to where I don't have to strum so hard. I've tried medium strings, but I just can't get used to the feel (especially when playing with my fingertips. Since I play with a very agressive, slappy, percussive strumming style, I use either very thin picks (.50mm) or my fingertips/nails. I've replaced my old, worn saddle/pick-up with a brand new one (thanx to Al) and while it has improved things to a degree, changing a G or a D string (or both) over the course of a night is pretty much commonplace. We've even factored in contingency "CliffString" songs into each set where someone else'll sing while I go off and do a quick change/tune-up.
It basically all comes down to my "gorilla" strumming style. Too much listening to Ritchie Havens and acoustic Townshend tracks. Pretty much the same as my bastard flute playing style coming from listening to too much Ian Anderson/Rasaan Roland Kirk and not enough Jean-Pierre Rampal/James Galway.
Overall, I have fairly skinny arms, but all this gonzo strumming and tambourine playing have given me a right forearm that looks like Popeye's........(that and probably too many years of waxing my rocket). |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Well, we're all trying to get our music out there. A few broken strings may not be as bad as not putting our all into whatever we're playing. I would definately say to keep banging away and get your music out there. That's the whole point anyway, to express the music you're playing. Anything that interferes with that, isn't worth changing. From what I've seen here, none of us seem to be part of a classical string trio. Maybe sweating, thrashing, breaking strings, is the best way.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Hey guys!
Thanks for your replys on this. Love your ideas. Cliff, you're pretty funny...I think we are pretty well "in tune".
All the best to ya! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2002
Posts: 9
Location: WA. USA | Hiyas :)
I used to have the same problem; Playing too hard, breaking strings etc when playing live.
I also blamed it on my "percussive" playing style when doing solo/duet gigs, Or "trying to keep audible" when playing with a 5 piece rock n' roll band. (Yes, I was plugged into a 100w 'Trace acoustic' amp for both).
Then one day a friend came by to show me a D24 Martin he'd just bought. We sat down facing each other to pick a few, (He with my Ovation, and I with his Martin), and right away, 2 things hit me;
1} The sound coming at me from my Ovation, was MUCH louder than I'd ever thought possible, and
2} I was hearing myself play the Martin clearly in spite of applying a delicate touch to a friend's guitar, (and the apparent volume of my own!)
As we played on, I saw that he too was playing carefully, But leaning over the Ovation frowning, and straining to HEAR what he was playing!
Here's what I learned after some more experimentation...
"FLAT TOP", or 'Wood body' guitars like Martin, Taylor, etc., project almost as much sound through the sides and back, as they do the front.
Ovation, on the other hand, projects almost ALL of it's sound FORWARD. The body (or Bowl), gives off nearly ZERO ambient resonance. (in fact, Most of what you hear while playing one is reflected back from the room you're playing in!)
So why doesn't an amplifier help?
Because it's usually located behind, and below you, and more importantly- Too close to you for you to hear it well!* (Borrow someone's wireless rig and step off 20 or 30 feet, THEN listen!)
*Remember; Speakers are designed to be heard clearly from a distance!
SOLOUTION:
There are a couple;
ONE; Use a "Hot spot" monitor. They sit on a stand [mic stand] next to, or facing you at ear level, giving you a better idea of what's coming out of your amp/instrument.
TWO; Run your axe, or amp through the PA, and have it fed to your floor monitor. Only make your guitar come thru louder than your vocal.
Beleieve me THIS WORKS!! In fact, after I started doing this I had several people comment on how much nicer my playing had become since I "Turned it down a notch on the volume"
(The fact is, I hadn't reduced the volume at all, But started letting the guitar do the work!!)
I guess what happens is that you 'trick' yourself into thinking you're playing louder than you are, and you ease up on the pounding and increase your technique because the sound is in YOUR face now, NOT your audiences!
I also started to sing better! It seems that having my guitar louder than my vocal coming thru the monitors, Gave me the illusion of needing to project over it (sing louder)!
I haven't broken a string since!
[1994 collector's, or 1983 Stereo Elite, Both using 10-50 Silk n' Steel, or 12-52 ga. Adamas, or D'Angelico]
Hope this helps! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Doc...
You may have a good suggestion there with the hotspot monitor. I generally play through my PA with no monitor, and the speakers are usually off in the distance. Most of what I generally hear is the vocal and some bottom end drone from the speaker (they're usually facing away from me toward the audience) competing with whatever "little" acoustic sound is coming from the guitar.
Perhaps I am heavier handed in an attempt to hear my guitar better. I've also noticed (since first posting this question), that I tend to be heavier handed at gigs as the result of playing standing up-which does affect my technique differently. Mix that with the adrenaline rush, and my strings don't have a prayer!
Thanks for the input. I was really considering buying a hotspot monitor (specifically) anyway for the last few months. Funny you should mention it. All the more reason to give it a shot. Thanks a bunch!
Peace,
Johnny |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15680
Location: SoCal | Doc:
That was one of the more interesting posts that I've read. Somebody else a while back (Miles?) said that if you want to hear what a guitar sounds like, have somebody else play it and listen.
This explains two other things I've noticed. I've got a buddy who plays a newer Elite (early 90's model) and I play a 1537 Elite. His always sounded better to me than mine did. Now I know why. I've also got a little Applause AA10 travel guitar. When I play it it sounds like dead meat, but when others play it, it sounds remarkably good for a small guitar (like meat that hasn't been dead quite as long). The reasons you give would explain both of these situations. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | In one of the bands I gig with regularly I play fingerstyle acoustic guitar in front of a loud rhythm section. I have to run my monitors as loud as possible, and a major benefit of this is that I don't "dig in" or overplay in order to hear myself. The downside of this is that loud monitors will encourage feedback in acoustic instruments, unless you have pretty serious EQ and you, or the engineer knows how to use it. In my experience in the UK, the majority of engineers at club level are deaf and/or clueless. I carry a pair of Galaxy Audio Hotspots as a back-up in case the house monitors are really crap, which in the UK is nearly always. I used them quite regularly till I realised they sound like shit and were pissing me off onstage. The bass response is deliberately limited to minimise feedback, which means they sound gutless. Hotspot-type nearfield monitoring is OK as long as you can live with the tone. The other option is to get your acoustic amp at head height. With a little creativity most of the smaller acoustic amps can be adapted to mount on mike stands or heavy-duty music stands, and the likes of Trace, AER, Ashdown etc. sound significantly better than Hotspot-type mini-monitors.
Paul
[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | i don't know how i missed this thread till now, but it is a gem. full of info i had never really considered. if i ever find the time and pesetas to try everything i have learned since i joined i might become more than a backwater cantina musician someday.
i have a couple of questions and comments:
where are the strings breaking and which ones. the nuts on my ukIIs (yep they're all guys) sorta sharpen themselves, being brass, and that is where the b and high e usually break as i do allot of blues style bending. if i am using 009's i am lucky to get 6 or 8 sets before the b or e breaks. a little needle file work on the fret side of the nut really helps and more than doubles string life. the severe bends in the lower register turn the nut into a shear. also paul t's "string this" tip gave me a great source for individual strings. i buy an extra b and e for each full set i order. much cheaper and easier than changing out a set that is sometimes only a day old.
has anyone experimented with using electric strings on an acoustic or visa versa? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | Russ
on my electrics I break a lot of strings. I have a very heavy handed technique. One of the things that helps me is to move to 10's or 11's and it takes me longer to break them. I too file the bridge pieces to knock down any sharp edges or pits. Another thing that I do is mess with the angle that the strings go over the bridge from the tailpiece that also helps. On a stop tailpiece guitar I sometimes wrap the problem strings around the tailpiece like you would a bigsby to change the angle this also changes string tension so if it bothers you the one string has different tension than another you will have to do it to all the strings. I am such a hack that it does not bother me.
you can use bronze strings on an electric but again they are usually larger gauges and if you are used to 9's you will not like it. as for electric strings on an acoustic I don;t think I would like that. once as a kid I mixed flatwounds with roundwounds and found that the vol difference between strings was staggering. I have not used flats for a long time but want to try them on one of my archtops or Hamer newports and see if I can simulate that jazz tone. I am not a jazz player by any stretch of the imagination. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Using nickel or stainless steel electric guitar strings on an acoustic is no problem, if you can find nickel strings in heavy enough gauges. The wound strings have a softer sound acoustically than bronze strings & you may prefer the tone. I have a Fishman Rare Earth magnetic pickup on my old Legend that I use for slide and use heavy nickel strings on that. You could put bronze strings on an electric guitar but it's not a great idea. Magnetic pickups need the ferric content of the string, which is greatly reduced in an alloy like bronze, so on the wound strings the pickups only "see" the core. Which is why I always use electric strings if I have magnetic soundhole pickup on an acoustic.
Paul
[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15680
Location: SoCal | My guitar teacher is a jazz player who mostly plays electric. However, he has a Custom Baladeer that he uses around the house. He put electric strings on it because he didn't have anything else around the house. It sounds surprisingly good. |
|
| |
Stop bangin' on them strings, damnit!
