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| Random quote: "Got time to breathe, got time for music." --Briscoe Darling. |
 Report on Music in China
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| Forums Archive -> The Vault: 2002-2003 | Message format | |
an4340 |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | A while back I promised to report on music stores in china. well, I only got to one, but have lots of observations on china. I'll try to stick to the ones dealing with music. 1) I got to Tom Lee music in Hong Kong. The silvercord tower 30 Canton Road is the corporate office. When I went there they referred to me to the closest store at 1 Cameron Lane in Tsim Sha Tsui, about a 5 minute walk, past the moseque. This is a store all US stores should aspire to, they had complete selections of ovations, martins, talyors, takamines etc. and a sales staff that left you alone with prices comparable to musicians friend. At the time there were only three people in the store, an english expat, myself and a chinese professional musician who stayed in the taylor area and watched us two english speakers peruse all the instruments, and interestingly we both agreed that the best of the lot was the adamas cvt. I think the chinese guy found it strange that we'd rave about this non-taylor guitar. I showed him how well it sounded plugged in with a touch of chorus and reverb. The english guy bought it, and I found a new bench mark to compare all the others. I also found the Takamine Santa Fe series to be a worthy instrument and confirmed the opinion of others on this board about taylors, that they are good guitars, but soul-less, or in other words, they lack the personality of an ovation or martin. 2)In Hainan Island I had the privilege of going to party in a very remote village. There were 750 people and they cooked the food in giant woks stired with shovels. Some of the people had never seen a real white man before, only in pictures. They had a band, 6 pieces and four singers, the 10 of them got paid only 1200 Renimbi or $160 us. However, I was told that this was a lot of money for them. The music was related to chinese opera music, which to my ear has an arabic incluence in the melody, and a simplified indian rhthym. The harmony is not as rich as in our western music. The most interesting instrument was a kind of huge samisen (when I can I'll post a picture). As for pop music there, there are a number of discernable types: Canto pop, that's HK music, not so bad, and at least better than mono-rythmic, mono harmonic and mono melodic rap/hip hop which really is crap ... oh wait that's another topic ... back to musical observations ... they have an indiginious music that's related to okinanwan music and in that vain I recommend Kina Shoukichi's album Peppermint Tea house, asian classics on luaka bop (two songs on there will blow you away, fire fly and subete no hito) and YASUKATSU OSHIMA's, Ari Nu Tu. You can get these pretty cheap at half.com. And I promise your soul will be happy. Well, that's my thumbnail musical sketch, of course I saw other things like how china is sucking the life out of hong kong, and the poor hong kongers are scared to death, and how the chinese would smilingly do (or are they doing it now?) the same to us if we gave them a chance, how women are treated second rate, how little girls go unregistered with out hope of an education, how if you're a worker you can never get sick or your job will be taken away ... but that's a topic for another board. To quote coleridge's wedding guest after listening to the ancient mariner, this trip made me a sadder and wiser man. Peace | ||
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| iconocoustica |
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Joined: July 2003 Posts: 181 Location: North Carolina | Thanks for the interesting read. Its always good to know that even 10,000 miles away an Ovation still sounds better than a Taylor Franklin | ||
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| sunny |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 51 | Your report on China is full of garbage. Sounds a bit racist & very arrogant. Are you really a wiser man after this trip? May God bless you! | ||
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| Tony Calman |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619 Location: SoCal | re: "racist & very arrogant" Enjoyed the report, didn't feel comment was appropriate but we have the liberty to voice our opinions. | ||
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| an4340 |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Well Sunny, I feel sorry for you. These were the things that happened to me and they are true. Have you ever been to a remote rural village in china? Do you know how cruelly they treat second female children, what happens if you get sick on the job? Or that rap is crap? If I said them inartfully I appoligise, but I'm bewildered by how you see my observations as racist. If someone is from china they are chinese, if someone is from england they are english ... oh wait, now I get it... you are trying to provoke a flaming, well you won't get it from me. For your edification here's a link to an article from yesterday's times. I suggest you educate yourself. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/26/international/asia/26MIGR.html Let me add: GOD BLESS AMERICA! | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I had wondered how Hong Kong was doing these days. I was there in the 80's for a week (Navy). I had a blast. My maid from when I was in the Philippines went on assignment in Hong Kong, so when I got there I looked her up and took her out to dinner. My "liberty" partner was a Chinese linguist (don't ask, I'd have to kill ya). His specialty was the local dialect and one of the funniest things was sitting at this outdoor cafe up on the hill and having everyone that worked there bring something different to our table. We finally figured out, they wanted to hear this slightly pudgy white guy speak fluent Chinese in their local dialect. We had a blast, got way better service than we deserved, and the girls were everywhere..... mostly because of him tho. I had the wildest taxi ride of my life that felt like I was in a James Bond movie, and only appropriate because I did go to "the Bottoms Up" which was in one of the movies. Went to a disco on top of the Hyatt I think... ordered a fruit cocktail for $75.00, that was special. And no, that isn't code, it was a large fruit salad, and no it wasn't that big, just that expensive. I did spend one day on the ship (required) and I still remember the music ROCKED!!!! I found a rock station, that wasn't playing anything I had ever heard before except for one Joan Jett song that I remeber. Lots of groups from Europe, but it was great to hear that much music, that I had never heard before, by artists that I never heard of. The best part was on our last day in port. That same linguist and I were in a bar and there were some Russian sailors there. I guess I should mention he also spoke fluent Russian. Anyway these Russian sailors were off of a "fishing" boat, the kind with antennae from one end to the other. Anyway, at a quiet moment one of them turned to us and asked, in perfect English, how it felt to be in the world's 2nd largest Navy. To which my buddy replied without missing a beat in Russian.. "It's ok, how does it feel to be in the worlds 2nd best Navy?" We hoisted a few beers and joked about how much trouble we'd be in if any of our superiors caught us talking to each other. I did a gaggle of shopping at "the China Fleet Club"??? before we left. I was just amazed when taking the Ferry to Kowloon, how many thousands of people there were, and it seems like every litte group or couple was from another part of the world speaking different languages. Hong Kong seemed to have it's own vibe, and it would be a shame for that to be lost. It sounds like it might already be gone. | ||
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| sunny |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 51 | "Some of the people had never seen a real white man before, only in pictures ... I was told that this was a lot of money for them. The music was related to chinese opera music, which to my ear has an arabic incluence in the melody, and a simplified indian rhthym. The harmony is not as rich as in our western music ..." Is it your first trip to China? How long did you stay? I worked in China as expat for over 15 yrs. Of course I had been to many rural parts of China. What do you mean by " our western music"? What is "arabic incluence"? Chinese opera .... simplified indian rhthym ... You said you were the first real white man they saw .... give me break. You are definately not the 1st white guy in China. It happened thousand years ago. They got shitty pay? Nothing new. Big deal. Most of us knew it already. " ... how china is sucking the life out of hong kong, and the poor hong kongers are scared to death, and how the chinese would smilingly do (or are they doing it now?) the same to us if we gave them a chance, how women are treated second rate, how little girls go unregistered with out hope of an education, how if you're a worker you can never get sick or your job will be taken away ..." What are you talking about? How is China sucking the life out of hong kong? how the poor hong kong people are scared to death? All these are total bs. China is saving Hong Kong with all kinds of special programs. Hong Kong is going down because of the dumb chief executive. Are you reporting something you read 30 years ago? Don't post something & exaggerate after you go inside Harlem later. We have our own problems here in the US, especially Brooklyn. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | sunny You might tell us what Ovations you own. and what part of the US you reside in. If your only interest is in criticising an honest story about Hong Kong, then you might not understand that there is free speach here, and foreign agents are not allowed to threaten the participation in free speech. You are participating in an area where you might find your ass hanging from a lamp post, so to speak, if you think you can use our systems to threaten people who speak out on subjects you don't like. Please announce your address and location for a checkout by the security people. We are sick of bombs from your ilk. Bailey | ||
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| an43402 |
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Joined: August 2003 Posts: 18 Location: blkyn usa | Look Sunny, You hate the United States of America, apparently live in a shoebox with no access to the outside world and are grossly misinformed. In brooklyn we have a few choice things to say when people say things like you did, and the one I choose is: Phooey! Let me tell you something. First did you read the article from the times, or do you want to keep yourself ignorant so you can have your "superior" opinion? Salaries have gone down 60 percent in HK since the hand over, jobs are flowing over to china where you can hire five people for the price of one, people in china work for slave wages, in civilized hong kong my brother in law, a pharmacist, if he takes an extra day off, has to pay his replacement out of his own pocket ... At the party, another brother in law asked the women, who by the way sit separetly from the men, who had seen their first white man for the first time, what they thought was the difference between a westerner and a chinese man. He also told them that I spoke hainanese. Anyway, he had a great laugh. And I had joy talking with the women even though I didn't understand a word. In the evening I bathed at the well in the starlight next to the rice field with another brother in law. It was magic. From what I saw the women had a hard life, working in the rice fields, handling the water buffalo and the men as far as I could tell did as little as possible. Anyway, I don't know why I'm prattling on with you. I tried to keep my comment related to music, I wanted to share with people on this board and if you don't know the difference between harmony rhthym and melody or what makes western music western or arabic music arabic, I suggest you crack open a book and/or listen to some music. I'm not going to bother to teach you. As I write this I realize that you are a simpleton. In the words of a sunday morning talk show host: Bye-bye! | ||
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| sunny |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 51 | an4340/an43402, do you have reading problem? Why did you say I hate USA??? You thought I was from somewhere else? I am right here in New York City. Grew up in Brooklyn; graduated from Tech 30 years ago. You think you are superior to other people. You think you know everything. You jump into conclusion easily. Alas, most uneducated young men have these problems. Thanks for teaching me how to learn rhythm. You think you know rhythm, but you cannot even spell the word correctly. You misspelled it EVERY TIME you used the word. And you asked me to educate myself??? Where did you go to school? Thanks for teaching me how to learn music. I studied classical music 45+ years ago. I go to Carnegie Hall & Royal Albert Hall regularly. I lived & worked in China/Hong Kong for long time. You think you are China expert after spending just a few days in China! I wouldn’t say Chinese opera is just some simple thing with simplified Indian rhythm. I wouldn’t call Chinese people uncivilized. Hong Kong’s economy has been deteriorating for the past few years. It is the same in other Asian countries & the US. Please explain how China is sucking the life out of Hong Kong & the people of Hong Kong are scared to death because of China. Wages have gone down. It’s the same in many countries. How did you get 60%? It depends on the market sector. My brother-in-law (QC, now SC) still makes a lot of money. In HK, high school teachers with 10 years experience make over US$100k. The 750k HK civil servants (more than 10% of the population) have the highest salary in the world. Mr. Tung, HK chief executive, makes over US$500k/yr - more than our president. Tax rate is extremely low - max is only 15%. Unemployment rate is high in HK, but we (USA) are not far behind. Where does your brother-in-law work in HK? He probably makes more money than his counterparts in the US. Some of my friends have been unemployed for over 2 years right here in the US? They don’t have the option (like your brother-in-law) to take an extra day off. They cannot go shopping during this tax-free week. Do you know that a lot of real US jobs are going to India? Ask Bill & Larry. Do you know 40% of Intel & Cisco’s revenues come from China? Did you read yesterday’s NY Times? The front page could teach you some new things about China. Did you watch Ch 13 last night? Let’s come back to Ovation. Ovation seems to get more respect in HK/China & Japan than in the US. Famous musicians often use Ovation there. Some of my Chinese friends (barristers, bankers, businessmen) & expats from UK & US, like myself, play Ovation, though they can afford more expensive guitars. What Ovation do you own? It’s silly to call someone simpleton when you are actually simpleton. | ||
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| sunny |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 51 | Bailey, what made you think that the an4340’s report on HK was accurate? You asked me what Ovation I owned. Ok, I currently have more than 20 Ovation. From 1687 down to 1111. What Ovation do you own? Suppose you’re black & an4340 wrote, a short trip to Harlem, that he was the first real white man they ever saw and that black music was nothing but some simplified Indian rhythm. How would you feel? If someone laughed at you because you couldn’t afford a $400 used Ovation on eBay, how would you feel? OFC has been gaining momentum & getting new members from all over the world, including China. Please be sensitive to other people’s feeling. Life is short. We should learn how to love & respect other people, other race, and other culture. | ||
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| moody, p.i. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664 Location: SoCal | "Your report on China is full of garbage. Sounds a bit racist & very arrogant. Are you really a wiser man after this trip? Sunny, you were the one who started making derogatory comments. So back off a little. That should go for everybody here. This isn't a pissing war, it's a discussion. Don't let your egos get into it. By the way, I can spell rhythm, just can't play it. Damn. | ||
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| sunny |
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Joined: October 2002 Posts: 51 | Paul, I just replied to an4340's report that was fraught with derogatory comments. | ||
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| cliff |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842 Location: NJ | "Two Chinese guys and a priest walk into a bar in Harlem, and . . . ." sorry. :) | ||
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| grrroovedude |
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Joined: February 2003 Posts: 299 Location: Netherlands | LOL, cliff Anyway, i've never been to China, nor to the US, but I'm a little surprised by the aggressivity some display in this discussion. Pleeeeze try to be a little bit polite & nice to each other, that's where it all starts, right? Lot's of positive vibes andsoforth. Martin :) :) | ||
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| Nils |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 1380 Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by cliff: "Two Chinese guys and a priest walk into a bar in Harlem, and . . . ." sorry. :) ...the bartender says, "I hear King Kong played ping pong with his ding dong in Hong Kong!" Well that really pissed off Wun Hung Lo, so he says to Father O'Flatulance... Nils | ||
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| Mr. Ovation |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7222 Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Sunny and whomever else is watching. I didn't see any derogatory comments in the original post. I still don't. It was full of opinion based on someones visit. I happen to think his opinion is valid based on what I see in the news, but that may be incorrect also. I don't find anything wrong with calling something simplistic. I hope people would refer to me as simplistic as I see that as a compliment. Are you offended because he compared one great ancient style of music to another great ancient style of music. These are all opinions and people are entitled to them. Instead of slamming someones opinion, and bragging about the number of guitars you own (because I always win that hands down anyway) I would be more interested to hear things like what Chinese Opera is. Where did it really come from. I listened to traditional Korean, Chinese and Japanese music and some Eastern Indian music, and other then the different instruments, I hear it all sounding very similar, much based on drone notes. I realize I know nothing about it, and would like to listen with a "smart ear". The only thing I get out of this thread is that someone was offended, and I'm not sure I know why. As a great man once eluded "music is fun, that's why it's called 'playing'" mkb | ||
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| an4340 |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389 Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Sunny You make it too easy pick you apart. I have to resist responding ... wait I think I can do it, yes, yes, I can do it. Phew! That was hard. If you want to see my meagre collection of guitars go to the members area. It's missing my samisen from okinawa. | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | an4340 had a great report from Hong Kong. Veterans of the Korean War have very little confidence in China taking over anything and making it better. We also know that China, even though they have tried to suck up to Americans, have one of the most vicious and pervasive intelligence workers, who spend their time insulting people like an4340. Nobody should think that the Chinese are the people referenced in a New Yorker cartoon of liberals in a hot tub, sipping their martinis and saying of the worlds enemies of America "If they only knew us, they would love us". We may be complacent, but we aren't idiots. Bailey | ||
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| alpep |
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Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10582 Location: NJ | I believe the business model is flood the market with cheap junk, make a lot of money and slowly raise the quality so that it rivals domestic made products. It happened in Japan, Hong Kong, Korea, Mexico etc etc etc | ||
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| Beal |
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Joined: January 2002 Posts: 14127 Location: 6 String Ranch | These two business men walk into a Hong Kong bar with an Ovation copy....... | ||
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| Bailey |
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Joined: May 2002 Posts: 3005 Location: Las Cruces, NM | and walk out with an agreement to produce 10,000 of them, to be sold in America as Orvations, (nobody will notice that small difference). The Chinese are determined to ruin our commerce in every way. | ||
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