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Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Well, I have figured out why my Glen Campbell 12-string has "action issues". It has a warped neck! You can see it visually from the top of the headstock looking towards the body. If you remember Mark1960's post about his '96 Collector's guitar in December....mine has a very similar twist as his. It's twisted towards the treble side, away from the bass side.
I went back in the archive and followed cwk2's instructions on checking neck flatness....I found with a feeler gauge that the gap at the 5th fret is .020" at the 11th string (lowest E - .047), and the gap is .008" at the 1st string(high E - .010).
At the 12th fret, the clearance to the lowest E string is .130" (a little over 4/32"), and clearance to the highest E string is .100" (a little over 3/32"). The saddle is set up rather low (2.5/32" from the bottom of the 12th string to the top of the bridge) on the bass side already, although there is some room to play with on the treble side. The nut looks about as low as it could be on the bass side.
The action on the treble side is good, but the bass side action is a little too high for my taste!!! I like the sound, though, and it is playable this way. I'd just like to tweak the action on the bass side as best I can.
Now...what do you experienced, wiser heads think? My thinking is that maybe I could tighten the truss rod a bit....and install a new saddle to raise the treble side up to compensate so that side does not buzz. But I'm not experienced, and have never done anything like this. Willing to let a luthier do this if you all think this is too tricky for a novice.
Or....should I bother????....am I asking for more trouble???? It sounds very nice now(high action on the bass side sure does help give a nice bass presence :) ).
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String |
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Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Try Ovations directions -
To Check for Warp or Bow in the Neck
1. Hold the 6th string, E, between the nut and first fret with your left hand; with your right hand, hold the string againt the fingerboard at the 13th fret.
2. Check the clearance between the bottom of the string and the top of the 5th fret.
3. The clearance should be minimum .005 to .015 depending on the string gauge. It should not be more than .032 (1/32 inch) or the neck has a warped condition and must be adjusted at the tension rod.
4. Check the clarance of the first string, E, in the same manner.
5. If either E string touches the 5th fret the neck has a bowed condition and the neck must be adjusted at the tension rod.
Ok, I'm gonna admit I've never set up an Ovation. However... I have set up others with great success. There ought to be "some" relief in the neck, like they say about .005-.015. On an electric you can get by with even no relief if the neck is really flat (as in non-wavy), but usually you need .002 to .005 which really isn't much. Since acoustics are played harder - they need more releif.
Using a capo at the 1st fret helps when you need the extra hand to work the MAGNIFIER lens, or loup, and the WIRE feeler gauge. Using flat feeler gauges is much harder then using wire gauges. If you dont have wire gauges, you can make some from guitar string cutoffs like .009, .010, .015 etc etc from unwound strings.
The main problem with all necks - but especially acoustic necks because of the way they're connected, is the effect of "rise" (or fall too I guess) at the fingerboard above about the 13th/14th fret. This is because the fingerboard is not part of the supported neck at that point. On electrics like Fender's, the same thing happens but a few frets higher, and generally not as much (usually fixable by fret leveling).
This much I know from hanging out with some super neck guys locally - but... as it is, I'd not try anything more than a truss rod adjustment myself. Both of the guys I know that do this sort of thing tell me to untension the strings, make the truss rod adjustment, then tune to pitch again and see how you did. Its much easier on the threads of the mechanism and on the wood of your neck that way.
Then again, I'm not sure if your neck has an adjustment, or not. |
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Posts: 2177
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | CharlieB,
Good advice but I think you misunderstood Roger's (aka OAO) problem! You gave him info to correct a warp or bow - Roger's neck is twisted!
I've got the same problem with my Pacemaker 12 #1615 (same 12 fret/slotted headstock neck except for the GC 12's binding) and I spoke with Kim Keller about it Friday and Kim said about the only thing to do for a twisted neck (on the old slotheads) is to replace it!! (approx $450+ for a new neck :eek: )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mike :cool: |
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Posts: 2177
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Roger,
The way I fixed my Pacemaker is first I removed all the shims from under the pick-up/saddle then I took a tapered wood shim (the type you use to shim a door or window) and placed one of the original shims over the wood shim as a template and with a razor I cut the new tapered shim to size. With a couple of light passes over a piece ot sandpaper to get the correct thickness I wanted I installed only the wood shim under the saddle and retuned.
I got lucky the first time in that I didn't have to do anymore shimming and the action is pretty low with no buzzing. Just make sure that you keep the taper straight & flat so that the pick-up contacts the shim flatly - plugged in mine sounds even & balanced with no dead spots or hot (louder) spots!
* * * *
Good Luck.........Mike :cool: |
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Posts: 1498
Location: San Bernardino, California | Sometimes adjusting the relief will help a little with a twisted neck. Not much, just a little. |
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July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | CharlieB, thanks for the directions...I did download the Ovation manual and looked at it while I did the measurements as well as using cwk2's directions.....
Mike, you are right, my GCs neck is twisted...and I suspected that the "correct" fix is to replace the neck.....I may still do that eventually, but I'm looking for a cheaper fix to just make it more playable now. After spending $400 on the guitar, I'd rather not spend another $450 on a neck at this point. If that is the only alternative, I'll probably leave it the way it is for now.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Well... twisted it is.
There is another fix for this, and a good luthier - not a tech, can do it.
Basically it would be a neck plane and refret.
Set up the neck on a neck jig, pull the frets, plane it back true, reslot it, and refret it. I should think the same fret wire tang size would be suitable. If its a bound neck, the binding is gonna look "thinner" on one side, but it may not be noticed unless you look for it.
I'd be willing to bet you can get that done for way less than $450 (I'd guess about $250 or so, maybe even less). Nice thing is you can spec your fret crowns too - for instance if you like the wide/low gibson frets better.
The trick is... finding someone to do the work. Check references. |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Ya know... just shoot me.
I just took a look at the GC 12 string. OMG the inlays on the neck... if that neck needs much more than .030 taken off its gonna just screw the inlays (which are probably about .050 thick).
I'd still suggest a good luthier, one that know how to really make measurements (I'm talking with a straight edge and dial indicator). If you gotta remove and reset the inlays... jeebs its gonna be a ton. Not worth it when you can get a new neck for $450. But, ya wont know unless you ask. |
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Location: SoCal | Roger,
Is that the one you just got on eBay? Ouch! |
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July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Tony, yep. No more eBay guitars. This is one of those cases, though, that I am not sure I would have caught it even if it were in a shop or guitar show before I bought it. I don't usually sight down necks(NOW I will). I didn't notice it quickly because the guitar came with .012" or .013" strings on it and I figured the action was due to that. After I changed to .010s, I thought it was a relatively simple truss rod or saddle adjustment.
CharlieB, I appreciate all your thinking....but I'll go for the neck replacement before the neck replane, etc. I just KNOW the guitar wouldn't be "right" after all that....too many chances for a mistake! And I don't have a known good luthier in the Detroit area at this point.
However....my fear on the neck replacement is that Ovation would replace it with a current standard 12-string neck, which is NOT a slothead. That is NOT acceptable. I'd rather fiddle with it, get it the best I can, and leave it original.
Now granted.....I don't think Ovation makes a 12-string with a 12th-fret-at-the-body neck....so I am not sure what the replacement would be. Maybe some of you that work at Ovation could enlighten me.
Trboy/Mike's solution is along the lines of what I was thinking....and, BruDev, I had absolutely NO illusions that a truss rod adjustment would help more than a little. At this point, I need everything I can get, though!
The UP side is that it is playable, just not butter smooth on the bass side(no "Smoke On The Water" for this guitar).
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String |
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Posts: 420
Location: On the beach in Southwest Florida | Good luck Roger. Sounds like you can improve on the problem inexpensively, but "the real fix" is expensive. |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | My guess is Ovation could make you the same neck, its just a CNC setup. Those inlays might go tho. |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Roger, It ain't that bad. Try this,
Tighten the truss rod a bit till the treble side is .005 or so. It will still be a bit twisted but might be playable enough that it won't matter that much. Should also bring the action down closer to 3 and 2 or 3 1/2 and 2 1/2, the latter was the factory spec at the time. If you want it lower, pull a shim from under the saddle. If there aren't any you could sand it. Remember what you do there is 1/2 at the 12th fret. If it still doesn't play well call the factory. At the most you're looking at .010 or so twist. They can take it back there, pull the frets, sand it flat, fefret and you're all set. No big deal. |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | cwk2, guess what I just did before getting online now?...I tightened the truss rod a half turn just to see what it would get me.....
After retuning it, it got me .005"(was .008") at the 5th fret on the treble side and .013"(was .020") on the bass side. And it comes out to 3.5/32 on the bass side at the 12th fret....
Nice, butter smooth over the first 8-9 frets(the whole neck actually, on the treble side), VERY playable!!!! Just have to not do songs that need to use the upper frets on the bass side so much. For a chord wacker like me, that isn't hard.
DAMN, there's no substitute for experience(yours) is there???? :) You were dead on!
I just did this an hour ago....I'll check it tomorrow to see if anything has changed. Thank you for the advice!!!!!
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | curious...always thought the 5pc neck was almost impervious to "the twist."
what can cause it? |
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July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Tony, on my GC, it is up right below the headstock. The lower part of the neck appears pretty well straight. The half-turn of the truss rod appears to have taken a bit of the twist out.
Right below the headstock would be a stress-riser due to the change in cross-section of the neck there, so it would be the logical place. There would be the least thickness of the outside neck pieces to resist the twist at that point.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String |
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Looking for advice on a warped neck......
