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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan | Killer acoustic tone – 20% substance 80% hype
I went today to a local guitar store to sample some acoustics for my next GAS fix (recently sold a guitar to free up some capital). Brad (SlipKid) went with me. We played numerous Martins, Taylors, and a couple Gibsons. We traded guitars back and forth and listened while the other strummed and picked. After about an hour I was completely disillusioned with the concept of “killer acoustic tone”.
Maybe I am deaf as a stump or something, but to me the high-end megabucks guitars hardly sounded any better than the middle of the road stuff. For example we closely compared a Martin D-28 to a HD-28. The HD-28 is about $400 more expensive and has scalloped braces, but I could not tell a discernable difference between the two.
I played a Gibson Southern Jumbo that was a beautiful guitar to look at (sunburst, yours for around $1800), but honest to God I think I have heard better sounding Seagulls. I played a Taylor 414 and a 30th anniversary 310ce-L30, which while nice guitars, did not (in my opinion) live up to their 4 figure price tags.
We both had to laugh when we concluded that the best sounding Martin on the wall was a $600 DM model, a guitar with laminated back and sides. I am not kidding when I say it sounded much better than the HD-28. We also tried an Adamas 597 CVT which sounded pretty weak (I own a CVT which sounds much better than this one). How can there be that much difference in a graphite topped guitar? It has to be the strings and the set-up. We also played a 30th anniversary Custom Legend which sounded pretty nice, and a Elite LX which also sounded decent, but quite honestly the Elite LX sounded every bit as good as the Custom Legend at 60% of the price.
My conclusion? Killer acoustic tone is more a factor of (1) strings, (2) the individual instrument set up and construction, and (3) the skill of the guitar player. I really think strings are probably the top factor in how good a guitar sounds. I have read all of the blather on message boards about Adirondack and Englewood spruce, Brazilian rosewood and forward shifted braces, and I think it is all a bunch of hot air.
I think some of the obsessive-compulsive types that dump thousands of dollars into high end and boutique guitars are really just buying fancy furniture. I think a decent $600-900 guitar with decent strings and a good set up can get to 95% of the sound of a $5000 guitar. And you know what, I have a really hard time detecting that 5% difference, let alone spending $4000+ to gain the 5% improvement.
I also reflect that when I listen to great guitar players, I notice their skill and technique, and I am hard pressed to ever recall thinking “what a killer tone that guitar has”. I tend to remember the skill of the guitarist. My advice to newbees, get a decent middle of the road guitar, restring it often, and spend the money on lessons.
OK dissenters, flame away!
Brian T
Adamas 597 CVT
1717 Legend |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | You went out and personally handled these instruments and came back with an opinion.
No flame from me! That's the right way to choose where your dollars and allegance go! |
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Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 398
Location: So. Cal. | I can totally agree with most of your experience. Every time I stop by a GC and play their guitars, the $5k ones don't sound all that much better than a $500 one. Usually the expensive ones have been there longer, therefore, dead strings and rusty fingerboards. The low end guitars are newer, possibly fresh from the factory and thus newer strings and better setup. All in all, I have seldom found a high end guitar from a store that I would die for. Contrary to conventional wisdom, I have better luck buying guitars sight unseen over the Internet personally. Lastly, the high end guitars do sound mucho better if everything is done right. Price is always a relative concept. When you have it, you don't mind spending it. When you don't have it, everything seems to be overprice (to me, at least). |
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May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Brian T
Without too much discussion, I have to agree with everything you said. A middle price guitar will do the job very well. The only reason to buy a high price guitar is that they will last for years and give very few problems when played hard. BUT, when I say high price I mean like a $1000 Ovation, a $6000 guitar is sheer folly reserved for the non player who wants to impress with flash not talent or the excessively rich who have no value of money. A black Martin helicopter will now hover over our houses with the firepower of a C-130 Dragon ship if they can find us.
Ba-- no no, my name is Alpep and I live in NJ with hundreds of Ovation $1000 guitars I don't even know anybody named BAILEY |
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Joined:
October 2004
Posts: 124
| Got the same experience. I already gave up judging guitars at local store, especially GC. Unfortunately, some people played a few poorly setup Taylor & Martin at GC and concluded that these guitars suck.
Taylor is expensive, but Ovation is expensive too! Just look at the cost, labor, time required to make the solid book-matched rosewood or maple wood on the back & side vs that for the molded "plastic" bowl. If the 30th anniversary Custom Legend has solid rosewood side & back, I think the price tag would be in the $4+k range (retail).
Ovation sounds different from all wood guitars like Martin/Taylor/Collings, and I like its sound & reliability. |
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March 2002
Posts: 873
Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | hi bailey,
i keep bumping into you after gigs. really fun tonight. philo is back and it's happening again.
in defense of guitars in a guitar chain store, the strings are usually far past their peak. it isn't policy to change the strings that come on the guitar from the factory. some of the coated strings are better, but i couldn't form an objective opinion before i had a fresh set on anything i tested. the expensive guitars often get played allot before they are bought and this compounds the problem for them. lots of sweaty sticky fingers and in a week or less the strings sound like crap. i go through over 100 sets a year just on my guitars (the ones i play the most) just to keep them sounding bright and lively. i understand the problem at a place like guitar center with hundreds of guitars. |
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February 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: Warren,Pa. | I think we're talking (in part) about the law of diminishing returns here. With Ovation,for instance, IMHO that point is hit with the Baladeer. I own a CL and a '97Collectors'. These guitars have beautiful appointments...and I REALLY like those extras...AND I could afford to pay for them. But if I think in terms of SOUND only I think a Baladeer has 95% of what my guitars have. If I talk about all-wood guitars, I haven't heard any guitar at any price that sounds much better than a Seagull S6, which can be had these days for $350 w/preamp. The biggest reason I bought a CL is because when I play out it's in a worship-leadind setting, and I've seen a lot of worship leaders with fancy-looking guitars that impressed me...so that's the route I took. Kind of dumb and unnecessary, but I love my flashy guitar. John <>{ |
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January 2004
Posts: 1225
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Many of the things that make the "high end" guitars so expensive have little to do with tone. I own two Martins, both of which retail for around $1,000 and I would hold them up against the "expensive" models any day. Martin tends to add a lot of bells and whistles to their high end models. Things like mother of pearl inlays, hand carved rosetes and fancy bindings are nice to have if you can afford it, but it doesn't make the guitar sound any better.
I also have a $600 baladeer special (mid-bowl) which is one of the best sounding acoustics that I have. My friend who has a Taylor, loves this guitar and wants to play it every time he comes over. |
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September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | It was fun searching for a guitar with bkok999 (a.k.a. Brian) yesterday. Since Brian already has a couple Ovations, the quest was to find a good wood guitar, no matter what the name. In comparison, that low end Martin sounded real nice.
And Brian...what is a "bkok999"? It sounds like some mysterious secret agent type code.
"Theres a man who leads a life of danger" |
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Joined:
January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | When I went looking for an acoustic back in January, I handled every guitar I could. High end J200's, low end Applause. Everything from everyone I could find... Guild, Ibenez, Taylor, all the imports from Fender and such. Even Martin... which I have personal reasons for not liking.
Gotta say, there are medium low end guitars that play and sound very very well. Some of the same models are not as nice though... there seems to be great inconsistancy in production.
On the high end....I gotta say, the Martin neck did nothing for me. All had terrible setups too, and all had what seemed to be heavy gauge strings. The Gibsons did nothing worth $2800 for me. Taylor was all show, very expensive, and just didn't seem to have that much "more" going for it. All the Taylors played well though.
I played an older textured top Adamas - but it was deep bowl (not comfy for me) and I wanted something new. But it clearly had "the feel" and "the tone". By luck... I got to play a freshly setup SMT, and it was pretty close in feel (doesn't have quite the low end, but thats to be expected), so Al got one for me.
Its hard to critically judge and play and listen in a store. What you hear, and dont hear, are going to be way different than in a studio quiet setting. But how many of us play in studio quiet settings? Feel is feel. So... I dont think you can really do any better than trying out everything, keeping an open mind... and go on what feels good, sounds good, and fits your $$$ situation.
Having said all that... ya know... Tacoma makes a hell of a guitar for the price, with some interesting woods too. |
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March 2002
Posts: 15683
Location: SoCal | This goes back to a thread/discussion we had a couple of months ago. It's the player, more than the guitar, that determines the sound. I will sound the same on a $600 guitar as I would on a $6,000 guitar. Which is to say, ok, if you're standing in the next state. A professional, someone like Temp, or Goober, or Serge, will also sound about the same, which is to say, brillant, regardless of what they are playing.
IMHO, it boils down to what puts a smile on the player's face when he/she picks up a guitar. As I've said before, I play Ovations for a variety of reasons, with unplugged sound being but one of the variables. It's a big one, but it's only one. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | Re:
"Tacoma makes a hell of a guitar for the price, with some interesting woods too."
Very underated and easily looked over guitar. Like Ovation they have some wonderful design characteristics that shine through even into their lower end Olympia models. I like the single upper bout soundhole as much as I like the Elite multihole concept. They do seem rather vulnerable with all that soft wood all around. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | It all depends on your own set of ears and what benchmarks they have.
example. My first amp was a black face fender princeton reverb. It was because that was the only way they came back then. I still own that amp and my ears are way used to listening to that particular sound. No matter how far I get away from Fenders I always seem to go back there because that is the sound I have the most experience with. BTW I still have that amp.
Guitars on the other hand, I started with a real POS made in holland acoustic and then my first elelctric was a POS marvel from japan. They were both horrible guitars. I later got a kapa continental (yes the teardrop shaped one) which at least had hofner pickups in it and then I got a hofner violin shaped guitar with built in fuzz!. next came my les paul with HB's. I loved that guitar and always gravitate towards guitars with hb's because that is the sound I hear in my head.
As for acoustics I went from a framus, to a made in japan epi, to a yamaha and a couple others then I found a 1934 epi archtop and a martin d 35 both around the same time. eventually got into the adamas guitar when I wanted something I could amplify when I played acoustic out.
The thing to remember is that all these guitars served a purpose and they are not necessarily better than one another just different. |
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February 2002
Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | In the last two years I have heard two acoustic guitars with undeniably killer tone, and perhaps the best sounding guitars I have heard, period. Both were made by James Olson, and it would cost me between five and ten thousand dollars to get one.
The fact that these guitars were being played by Phil Keaggy and David Wilcox just might have had something to do with the sound.... ;) |
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September 2004
Posts: 11
Location: usa | i don't think the high end stuff has gotten noticeably worse (there were always duds.) the budget guitars have simply gotten appreciably better. ever play a blueridge br-160?? |
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May 2004
Posts: 338
Location: Toronto | I happened to stumble upon a Tanglewood acoustic a few months ago. These hand build guitars come from Japan and just hit the Canadian market.
It retailed for $450Cdn (that's about 5 bucks US :D ). I can honestly say that it was the nicest sounding acoustic I had played in some time. It was far nice imo than the Taylor 914, or the Gibson J200.
Once they import them with a pick-up - I'm gonna get me one!
Dano |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | This goes back to a thread a few months ago regarding whether there are ethical issues in looking at guitars at GC's and then buying on the internet or elsewhere. Over the last three years I've bought and sold about a dozen guitars on eBay before I found the two that I love-an '83 1537 Elite and an '81 1619 Custom Legend. During that time I spent many hours in total at the local GC trying eveything out. I also owned a Taylor 410 for about 9 months and played it daily. No matter how much time you spend trying out guitars at a GC or other local shop, there is no substitute for taking a guitar home and living with it for a few months. That's the only way to know if you've found the one that you really want. Every guitar brand has variations in the final sound of identical models. My advice is to be patient, buy something you think will be good based on what you've read about here or played at a store, and then buy on eBay or from someone like Al Pep. Then live with the guitar for a few months. Keep it if it meets your expectations, or if it doesn't sell it on eBay and try again. It takes some time, but if you already have one decent guitar you will be able to look around and get the most value for your hard earned money on a guitar that you absolutely want to keep. |
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February 2004
Posts: 171
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma | Unless I was trying to make an "investment" in a guitar for appreciation purposes I wouldn't spend mega bucks on a guitar... To me it's like being a carpenter and having a platinum hammer... A good steel one will do the same work at a cheaper price... I also agree that the player makes the biggest difference....
Gerald |
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Joined:
January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | Hey well... case in point on shopping vs buying.
I got the low end SG a few months ago. Always wanted one, and my old Guild SG knockoff (actually a better guitar) is getting to the point where it needs a serious refret... I'll probably just retire it while its still can pass as playabel...
Anyway, GC $749, no case, no bag. MF was $649 with bag, and WMS was $679 with Gibson hard case AND bag.
Went back to "my buddy" (right) at GC, and the best he said he could do was $699 with the bag, and $120 for the hard case. I mean.. we're not talking $25 or even $50 dollars here folks. Those mailorder prices include shipping too!
The "deal" at GC would have been around $869 out the door, while the WMS deal was $679 to my door....
Ya know, when I go to anyone... its not my custom to say "sell it for this, and you've got the sale". What I do is say.. "I've been offered one for this price (whatever), how close can you come to that?". Then its up to them. If they want to REALLY be nice, they'll beat the price. If they have been selling well at the high price... maybe they dont want to even come close for me. Maybe they'll price match, maybe they'll split the difference... who knows until you ask. At any rate, they know the market, they know I'm in the market, and they certainly ought to know their competition. GC would have gotten the sale if made an effort. They didn't even want to price match the MF price, which is odd, since they're one in the same company. |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Isn't MF and GC the same company? If it is they don't care which pocket gets the money, just so long as it's one of their pockets. |
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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan | One other observation about "killer acoustic tone"; nothing sounds worse than an out-of-tune guitar. I have watched some pretty sorry performances played on great equipment that sounded terrible because the guitar was out of tune.
I think the built in tuner is greatest guitar enhancement since the truss rod. Many times I pick up my Adamas CVT just because the tuner's right there and I can be playing in moments without dragging out and puttering around with a meter. Slipkid and I have found we can both tune at the same time using our built in meters. It's also great to be able to discretely and easily check your tuning in the middle of a set. Tuning is critical to any sound, let alone "killer acoustic tone". Its hard to understand why most of the high end guitars (that come with built in electronics) lack this important tool. |
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September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I pity the fool who picks up the house guitar at an open mic night. |
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May 2004
Posts: 295
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | The reason I bought my Martin 00028EC was primarily because of its killer tone, so I don't think it can be said that "killer tone" is a myth (although defining it is somewhat subjective). Some guitars have it, and some don't.
Last weekend I tried about five different Martins in a store. None of them sounded as good as mine, and one, a Diane Ponzio jumbo, just didn't sound good, period. It had a dull, muddy bass sound, and just didn't project. That surprised me, because I thought a jumbo body would have a big, booming bass and a lot of resonance. And this jumbo cost about the same as my Martin ($4,000 Canadian), so I would put it in the high-end category, price-wise.
The lesson I took away from this is, try before you buy, especially insofar as acoustics are concerned. Don't go by brand name alone; there's too much variation in sound quality. Having said that, I contradicted my own advice and ordered an Adamas, but, it's an acoustic-electric, not an acoustic, and I sought the advice of the OFC before ordering, and the consensus seemed to be that it's one guitar you're pretty safe in buying without trying. |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | It's a funny thing, you'd think the big jumbos would sound huge and they don't. Ever heard a great big sounding J200? Me neither. The smaller bodies seem to have more balance and projection. |
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January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | CWK2... you know they're the same company... lol... but the one thing that comes into the mix is the local salesman, and the local market. If the market is hot, you know how prices tend to lift locally. Just the way it is..... |
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The myth of killer acoustic tone
