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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | Most of us who trade on eBay and use PayPal have a simple personal account. These are the accounts that don't get charged the 2.9% fee for received payments. BE WARNED, if PayPal screws up YOU lose because you don't qualify for PayPal's "Seller Protection."
Here's what just happened to me:
I sold an item on eBay for $150. The buyer paid via PayPal. I got notified of the payment, checked my PayPal account to verify that the funds were there and then shipped the item. FIVE DAYS LATER I get notified by PayPal that the funds were reversed due to suspected fraudulent activity on the buyer's account. PayPal then charges back on my account the amount of the transferred funds and informs me that I don't qualify for seller protection. PayPal did nothing to get the money back from the buyer, who started this whole thing with the unspecified fraudulent activity.
So here I am. Even though PayPal took five days to notify me of the reversed payment due to unspecified fraudulent activity and I did absolutely nothing wrong, I'm out the value of the item, the cost of shipping it, and eBay's fees. And the kicker is that the allegedly fraudulent buyer gets away with not paying for the item which was promptly shipped.
I've just learned the hard way why many eBayers will not accept PayPal.
PAYPAL SUCKS!! If you want to see a whole plethora of PayPal horror stories, just type PayPal sucks into your google search and watch how many sites you will find. I used to think that these sites were from a bunch of crackpots, now I know that they are for real. |
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Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | That's a drag and I feel for you. My biggest gripe about Paypal is that they choose to operate as a 'bank' when it suits them and as 'not a bank' when it suits them. Generally, whenever they have to make that call, the 'customer' gets screwed somehow.
That being said, I've been using Paypal since SEP 2000 and have never had a problem (selling or buying). I have a Premier account, although I couldn't tell you what that means.
Can you track down the buyer from the address? Call the authorities? |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Mitchrx, was the buyer "confirmed"???? That is one clue that maybe all is not as it should be.
I agree, PayPal is not one of my favorite organizations, either. I just love watching them suck 3-4% of my gross away (I have a Premier account, too). :eek: Unfortunately, I got tired of answering "Why don't you take PayPal?" questions, and watching auctions go begging because I didn't take it.
A Personal account means that you can't take credit or debit card payment and that they can't charge you anything for the account. A Premier account means that you CAN take credit or debit card and that they CAN take 3-4% of your gross(whether the buyer pays by credit card or NOT).
Roger |
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Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | 3-4%?!?!?!?! Man, that explains some things. So, what the 'Business' account they get 10%? Or still 3-4% but a monthly fee? |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | PayPal has fees. With fees come a certain amount of protection. I add these fees to the price of my items. I too have been using PayPal for several years. The worst that has ever happened was they froze my account for a couple of days due to some unusual activity. They just wanted me to prove that I was really me because someone was accessing the account from different parts of the country. It was me, I was travelling at the time, so I was actually impressed they were watching.
Keep in mind, this scenario can happen with a check too. Someone can send you a Cashiers Check even, you get the money, you ship the item, then the check bounces.... goodbye money. It's another scam, but it works. Paypal is not worse than anything else, and little better than most in my opinion. |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Miles, PayPal is certainly entitled to make a fair profit on their service, and that isn't my complaint. It's just that every way that the rules can be slanted in their favor, they ARE. I think that is what the general gripe is here.
My personal gripe is that they even take their 3-4% fee on transactions that do not involve a credit card, which is supposedly the reason they need to have the fee.
As far as adding their fees to your item....eBay will NOT allow you to add your PayPal fees to the auction cost....just try it!!!! If the buyer complains to them, you will be disciplined.
Roger |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | The thing that really pisses me off is that PayPal sent the money back to the guy who was allegedly fraudulent. That just makes no sense. The fraudulent a-hole wins and the honest guy (me) loses. I don't understand how PayPal can first notify me that the funds are received and then take five days to realize there is a problem. That kind of problem should be noticed before PayPal ever acknowledges a transfer of funds, not five days later.
I don't buy the analogy of a bad cashier's check that bounces. A cashier's check is just a piece of paper until it goes through the bank. PayPal works off of electronic transfers of funds through verified bank accounts. If the funds aren't there no transfer can be made.
I posted this thread so that others are alerted to problems with PayPal's business practices that might only be encountered rarely but are still blatantly unfair. You can be sure that PayPal collects hundreds, if not thousands, of times more fees than it pays out through it's seller protection policy.
Also, keep in mind that PayPal is now owned by eBay. Even though PayPal is entitled to make a profit, the entire PayPal service now functions to make eBay easier to use, thereby increasing eBays profits. |
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Joined:
September 2004
Posts: 165
Location: south of munich, Germany | to avoid such problems:
do transfer the money from paypal to your bank account before shipping... it takes just a few days, but you should be safe. |
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Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | The problem with that solution is that the friendly folks at Paypal will still debit your account for the amount. You then have 90 days to pay back the money and make the account current. Can't use your account until you have cleared the debit.....and oh yeah, if you don't pay it back within 90 days, they will turn you over to a collection agency.
Been there...done that....coughed up the money against my better judgement but I didn't want the bad credit rap against me. Paypal sucks but I still use them because they are better than the alternatives. |
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Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | curious whether PayPal has a stipulated time period as to withdrawal of funds...
looks like you should buy using PayPal, sell using cashier's check or money order. that is, unless it is a Wells Fargo money order. |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "As far as adding their fees to your item....eBay will NOT allow you to add your PayPal fees to the auction cost....just try it!!!! If the buyer complains to them, you will be disciplined."
What I meant was... If I need lets say $100 for an item, I just make the reserve $105.00 or whatever I think will cover my costs. That's my choice, ebay has nothing to do with it.
As someone else said... PayPal has their flaws, but overall, they are the best game in town. I wish there was competition, but frankly, there just isn't, especially with eBay owning PayPal, I doubt there ever will be.
Like many other things, if everyone does buisness honestly, it works well. I guess that's the goal, and we must give them credit for going after fraud. They miss on occation, but they save people 1000's of dollars each month too.
Like anything.. the good with the bad I guess. |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | Sorry to hear about your issue with PayPal. I have a love/hate relationship with them, the latter being due to circumstances like yours.
But PayPal has made it possible for people like me to have a global business. Like Miles, I simply conside the fees to be part of the cost of doing business.
Your situation is a genuine hassle. I would first call PayPal and once you get a real person demand to speak to someone higher up the ladder for the purpose of finding what can be done. It may be nothing, but at least get one of the administrators to go on record.
Your final recourse may be to file a fraud report on the buyer via USPS online. You may at least get your item or the money back. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | So far my experiences have been good and I quickly succumbed to the constant "hints" to become "verified". I was shocked and appalled to find a 10 day wait when a verified Canadian Buyer made a transfer to me!
It does open up possibilities for commerce. They are one way, no doubt. As for fees - Using Visa has fees as well as a certian amount of insurance.
Just don't apply for the Credit Card - get a home equity line of credit instead. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | I received a notice from PayPal today that the buyer paid me again, but this time with a credit card. In order to accept the payment I had to upgrade to a "Premier" account and pay the 2.9% fee, which will now be applied to all future payments that I receive via PayPal.
I guess I'm now eligible for the protection policy, but I now think that I'm just protecting myself against PayPal's mistakes.
Regardless of the fact that my situation appears at this time to have turned out OK, I still think that PayPal is taking advantage because they are the only game in town.
The bottom line is that PayPal makes mistakes. If you maintain a personal, no fee account, their mistakes can become your loss and you have limited if any recourse against them. |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Mitchrx, another fine example of PayPal's stacking the deck for themselves...their answer to anything is "you must have a Premier account" (which now allows them to help themselves to a minimum of 2.9% + $0.30 of any of your payments).
You could have refused the credit card payment and forced the buyer to pay you using another method, as long as it was in line with your stated payment methods in the auction listing. Before I finally gave in and upgraded to the Premier account (because PayPal was making it so hard not to), I had to do that constantly.
Miles, you are of course quite correct in that you can bake the PayPal fees into your minimum auction price, but it sounds like you operate in three-digit prices, where you might have a chance of doing that.....my auctions are in the lower double-digits and there is absolutely no chance to do that. I wouldn't sell the item.
There ARE many things that PayPal does right, and I myself have never had any trouble with them. But it's all the things they do to "force" you to hand them as much money as they can, that leave the sour taste in my mouth. If a real competitor comes along, they could be in trouble, from all the ill-will I hear about them.
Roger |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | when i started on e bay (during the dark ages) I got credit card service for my business. People would buy from me saying wow I bought from you because you are a legitimate business and take credit cards.
Now I don't and never have and never will take pay pal and people say You are not a legitimate business you don't even take pay pal!!!
I can't win.
I just don't need any more pals taking my money and giving me more paperwork. |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by Mitchrx:
I received a notice from PayPal today that the buyer paid me again, but this time with a credit card. In order to accept the payment I had to upgrade to a "Premier" account and pay the 2.9% fee, which will now be applied to all future payments that I receive via PayPal.
I guess I'm now eligible for the protection policy, but I now think that I'm just protecting myself against PayPal's mistakes.
It's a bit of a PITA but you can make them change your account back to a 'Personal account'. I did. I was tricked into 'upgrading' too, pretty much the same way you were. Basically - "Here's the money & you can have it IF you upgrade". Chickenshit outfit (imo) but the only game in town. |
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Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | I'll join the bash Paypal parade. They truly suck. For a long time I sold items and had a note in the ads that said I would take Paypal but only if the buyer paid the fees. That worked for a year or so until the Paypal police caught up with me. The flashing blue light; I had to pull over my monitor... Can't do that anymore. There were no penalties other than a sternly worded email. But, you can charge a 4% packaging fee across the board and then offer a 4% discount to anyone who pays cash/check. (The discount for cash was actually Paypal's suggestion, by the way.) They are really quick to reach into your wallet; too quick! |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | This is a lot like the Cable Company!
What they need is some competition!
Unfortunately, they have already legislated that option out! |
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Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | OK, maybe I'm the odd dog here, but I think PayPal offers a great service and they deserve every bit of the 3-4% that they charge the seller. If you don't want to pay the fees, then don't offer PayPal as a payment option on your sales. It's a free world. If you can find a similar company that offers the same or better service for less then use them.
BTW Miles,
"As far as adding their fees to your item....eBay will NOT allow you to add your PayPal fees to the auction cost....just try it!!!!"
You are correct, but it is perfectly "legal" to get around this issue by offering a "discount" for paying my money order.
Dave |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Dave and mitzdawg, you are correct that you can do that, but with the low-cost items I sell, I would be "rewarded" by seeing my items not sell. Very few other sellers of my items do that and I would not be able to get away with it.
I would just rather see PayPal only collect the credit card fee when a credit card is used. THAT is my gripe.
Roger |
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PayPal Warning-Must Read!!