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| When I got my 1771Lx last week, it's action was way high. I took a shim out. Today, I thought, it still plays a little hard so I took the other one out. No buzz whatsoever. It wasn't so long ago I got a 6751 and had both shims taken out. Are most Ovations set high for a reason? |
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Location: North Carolina | I tune my guitar very low and so I get severe fret buzz with tight action. I have 3 shims in place on my guitar with a pretty good amount of relief in the neck. Makes it harder to play but I've gotten used to it. Different strokes for different fokes. ;)
Franklin |
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| Hmm...Didn't think of low tuning. |
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Location: south east Michigan | My guitar came with just one shim. The set-up that came from the factory could not be improved upon. |
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Location: NJ | I never changed the factory set up of any of my guitars. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Al...I can't tell if your kidding or not! I think we all have seen some awful setups on the showroom floor. |
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| Originally posted by Slipkid:
Al...I can't tell if your kidding or not! I think we all have seen some awful setups on the showroom floor.
He must be serious. I didn't see one of these ;) . |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I shim. I play with Med. gauge strings and with no shims...Buzz-o-matic...
or Snare Guitar :D |
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Location: NJ | seriously all my O's and A's have the factory set up, but I tend to like the manly higher actions and heavy strings |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | My 1858 elite came from the factory set up played some perfectly. I have however Played a few Standard EliteLX's ad Balladeerlx's where the action seemd a little high at the store. The strings were nice and it rang good it was just set up a little high to my taste for a 6 string. Of the ones that I've played in the stores I did have 1 Balladeerlx set up perfectly. so it must be the shims. Only thing i can figure. |
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| Since I mainly play an electric, I like it as low as possible with no buzz. The 6751 was playing easier than the lx, just didn't seem like that was right. |
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Location: Irvine, California | My opinion on this is that if you change the original setup, you disagree with the guys at Ovation and I think those guys have way more experience in how a guitar should be setup then at least my-self. I play elecric guitar too and playing a harder accustic actually makes my fingers stronger and better to handle to electric guitar. I would reccomend that you work to get stronger fingers instead of taking out the shims.
Remember: Playing guitar isn't for everybody. You need strong fingers and yes...your fingers are supposed to bleed. ;-)
But hey...that's just my silly opinion. |
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Location: SoCal | The other thing to keep in mind is that when you lower the action you also decrease the tone. |
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| Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
The other thing to keep in mind is that when you lower the action you also decrease the tone.
How does that happen? |
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Location: Midland, MI | How does that happen?
Well, you see, there's a lot of tone stored up in the bridge. Not many people know it, but tone is volatile. When you disassemble the bridge to get to the shims that you want to remove, a lot of it just evaporates into the surrounding environment.
That's why when you play in the same room you change your strings in your guitar sounds better than, say, playing it in the bathroom. Antoher bit of trivia: removing the strings reduces tension on the saddle, which makes for a tiny little gap between the saddle and bridge and then...yep, you guessed it, a little more tone leaks out.
So, there you go. It's supposed to be this big secret, and MWoody and cliff will probably swing by and get Bailey then come over and beat me to death for telling you, but...well, you seem like a nice enough O-fishy-and-otto. I suppose worse case, they make both of us 'ride the llama.'
EDIT:
I just read what I posted and it struck me...great name for a member duet: O'Fishy and Otto.
Or maybe it's the wine. |
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| Oh, I see. I guess if I plugged that great big hole up in the front of my guitar I could keep a lot of the stored up tone to stay in my guitar? Where's my glue gun... |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by kkyle:
Oh, I see. I guess if I plugged that great big hole up in the front of my guitar I could keep a lot of the stored up tone to stay in my guitar? Where's my glue gun...
See, now that's what a lot of people think. But, then again, a lot of people are wrong. As an aside, whatever way you see 'the crowd' heading, go the other way. Doesn't matter what the circumstances, you'll come out ahead in the long run. But, I digress.
We were talking about losing tone. Tone is stored up in the bridge. The soundhole on the front of your guitar is called, what? Right a soundhole. 'Why is that Uncle Crusty?', you ask. Well, because that's where the sound comes out. Clearly, if you glued up your soundhole, you would do nothing more than keep the sound all bottled up inside the bowl. I can't imagine that'd be pretty when it finally busted loose...all those D-7#13aub5majDomPerignon chords coming out at once, clashing with the ChristMasdec25 augmented flatted fourth fifths. Not pretty at all.
See, keeping the sound plugged up in there isn't going to do anything to keep the tone from leaking out of the bridge. Two different things. Apples and Chevrolets, my friend. Sure, sure, tone is what makes the sound, well, sound so good. But, don't think that keeping the sound in will save your tone. No siree.
Just ask StandingO. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | I was in a large music store in Nashville and had a lot of time to play a lot of instruments. I have commented before the LX is set up higher than the vast majority of guitars. The majority of the Celebrities had better string action. I just think their choice of this high action is a mistake. Because I think many people will not deshim but will go on to the next guitar with the better action. Why not make that action lower and put a shim in the case for those who want to exercise their fingers. |
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| Originally posted by 45flint:
I was in a large music store in Nashville and had a lot of time to play a lot of instruments. I have commented before the LX is set up higher than the vast majority of guitars. The majority of the Celebrities had better string action. I just think their choice of this high action is a mistake. Because I think many people will not deshim but will go on to the next guitar with the better action. Why not make that action lower and put a shim in the case for those who want to exercise their fingers.
Tone leaking out of the bridge, losing tone by lowering action aside, my sentiments. |
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Location: East Tennessee | Hi,
As originally posted by cruster " Your guitar sounds better than, say playing it in the bathroom"
I've never tried that!!!
To shim or not to shim THAT Is The Question.
Have a Great Day. :cool: |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | The purpose of the shims is to improve the action, just like an electric guitar bridge. As we know,that's what Ovation describes in its owners manual. Tone? That's a new one on me. Obviously you don't want the strings to buzz against the frets, but slight changes in action should not affect the tone at all. My guess is the Ovation sets their action high, so the owner can remove a shim or two.
Tommy |
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Location: Midland, MI | I was kidding about the tone leaking out of the bridge. Obviously, tone is stored up in the nut. |
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Location: closely held secret | Looks like the nut might be leaking, at this point. Or maybe it's the wine. Or maybe the nut's leaking wine... |
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| Originally posted by cruster:
I was kidding about the tone leaking out of the bridge. Obviously, tone is stored up in the nut. Tone in the nut? I always heard tone was in the fingers. See, if you cut your fingernails, tone decreases because you're letting little pieces of it fall on the floor. If tone was in the nut, no one would ever have that operation to keep from having babies. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Back to the original question, I suggest there is no one answer. These guitars are individuals that are handmade, and are affected by aging and environmental factors. You may have the same model number and same brand/gauge of string but have a different number of shims depending on your personal preference and playing style and how these interface with the extant neck angle on the guitar.
Just my modest, as always, opinion. |
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Location: SoCal | Tone is influenced by the angle break over the saddle. You want a good break angle instead of the saddle being so low that there's only a small angle.
The other factors involved with tone from a higher saddle is that you can play the guitar harder and use heavier strings, both of which contribute to tone.
However, there's a trade off with playabiltiy. Most people want a guitar that's easy to play. My 1537, my main 6 string, has action higher than some people would like. To me, it feels like an acoustic, not an electric. I use medium gauge strings, and while I could remove one more shim, I don't. It notes perfectly up the neck. I've tried it with one more shim out and it loses something.
It's a very personal thing with no right or wrong answer. Mike Wong likes the action on his guitars to be higher than mine. Others like lighter strings and lower action.
Whatever floats your boat... |
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| Moody, thanks. I'm a weenie now, think I'll add the shims back one at a time when I feel I can produce greater, consistent fret pressure. |
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Location: UK - Canterbury Kent | I have 1778LX and removed all three shims bit by bit. Each removal was an improvement, with no buzz. I may have lost some tone, but it is much easier to play and after two hours, your fingers are not bruised. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I'm with Moody on this one.
I have two 1537's both with Mediums strings and factory set-up that sounded remarkbly similar. I pulled a shim out of one and left the other as is. There was a definite loss of tone and also a bit of string buzz. And to my surprise the lowerd action didn't really make a lot of difference to me while fretting.
The shim went back in. And I can crush walnuts between my thumb and forefinger. |
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| String height makes a huge difference to the tone and volume of an acoustic guitar - have you ever been close up to a $20000 classical guitar.? You could drive a Hummer between the fret and the strings at number 12.
If you plug in, or if you're not trying to fill a concert hall then the effect is reduced. But 90% of acoustics are played 90% of the time around frets 1 to 3 where a higher action is much less noticeable - result is a loud, sustaining, clear ringing sound. That's why most manufacturers set them up that way. The exceptions are those that are trying to tempt younger electric players who are used to skinny necks and very low actions on cheesecutter strings.
Gary Moore said he couldn't stand PRS guitars - they were just too easy to play.
Malmsteen (classically trained) said that on the 3G tour neither Satriani nor Vai could play his guitar cos the action was too high.
Like Paul said - it is personal preference, but there is a real difference. You pays your money and makes yer choice.
And no - I haven't taken any shims out. |
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Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by schroeder:
[QB] But 90% of acoustics are played 90% of the time around frets 1 to 3 where a higher action is much less noticeable - result is a loud, sustaining, clear ringing sound.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
actually, more pro players balance where they play on the fretboard more evenly, to utilize more of what's there.
i don't think it's fair to generalize the instrument based on how many beginners/novice-level people play.
there is A LOT more to the guitar than strumming open position chords...IMO |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I like the action as low as possible without buzzing. I normally keep the action right about at Ovation's factory specs as described in the manual. That seems comfortable to me. It's a personal thing, but I don't want to play a 3 or 4 hour gig with a guitar that's hard for me to play. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I saw my name mentioned somewhere in this thread - I have no idea why. But just because you're full from the roast beef doesn't mean you have to turn down the cheesecake ...
I have seldom if ever had to deviate from the factory setup wrt number of shims. In the few instances this was required I lowered or raised the action using shims until the action was where I liked it. In the case of one guitar this placed the saddle way too low to get decent tone and on another the saddle was so high (6 shims) that it would not keep from falling over. Both of these guitars were 30+ years old and both had to be sent back to the factory for neck resets. Both are now perfect, although I sold one of them. A sharp break angle over the saddle is essential to transfer the vibration of the string into the bridge, which in turn vibrates the soundboard causing waves inside the body (the deeper the body the better) and those waves pump air (and sound) out of the soundhole. This is in addition to the soundwaves made directly by the soundboard vibrating the air between your ear and the board. Want to experiment? Detune a string by a 5th and what happens to the volume? It goes way down due to less pressure on the saddle. Dave |
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| Hmmm...if you lower the break angle you'll lower volume. I guess if you lower break angle you'll also lower the amount of energy transfered into the top which would affect tone.
As long as the saddle fits the contour of your bridge slot you should be good though.
If you want to lower the height of the saddle but still maintain the break angle, you could always file your pin holes, of course that doesn't work with pinless bridges. ;) |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | One thing I have noticed on many guitars not just Ovations is the string height at the nut being way to high. I don't kwow why guitar makers do this. What a difference it makes when the nut slots are cut to give nice low action at the nut. |
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Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by Legend-LX-Fan:
One thing I have noticed on many guitars not just Ovations is the string height at the nut being way to high. I don't kwow why guitar makers do this. What a difference it makes when the nut slots are cut to give nice low action at the nut. because it's impossible to raise the nut slots if someone want them higher(for slide, os those who enjoy pain:-)) it is not, as you mentioned, a problem to lower the slots. |
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Location: Omaha | Legend-LX-Fan beat me to it - I had to lower the action at the NUT, and while I was at it, I wanted the strings spaced a tad wider than factory specs, so I went with a new nut altogether (black graph tech, which looks very cool on an all black O, BTW!)
I'm always experimenting (with the shims, string gauges, and truss rod adjustment), not quite there yet.
For me, one of the issues was how hard the O seemed to play in the first 3/4 frets (the "money frets"); so I started lowering the action at the nut. THEN I started working with the shims and truss rod. I also suspect part of it for me is the shape of the neck on my L777 Legend; I may get brave someday and remove some of the 'V' to make it more of a 'C' shape...that will also change it's feel to something I'm more at home with...
...and on and on and on...
:cool: :confused: :rolleyes: |
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| Not to overstate the obvious, but you do know that the truss rod is to adjust neck relief, not action. Right?
Certainly once you adjust the action you may need to tweak the relief, but truss rod adjustment should be fairly rare in the grand scheme of guitar "fixes".
I only adjust the truss rod to back it off for a little buzz, tighten it up if the intonation is out in the middle of the neck.
Also it may need a 1/4 turn when you change string gauges due to the change in string tension. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | That's not that obvoius to many people. I took one of my Martins to have the action lowered a bit and the first thing the guy reached for was the truss rod wrench. Needless to say, I didn't let him touch my guitar. I ended up sanding the saddle down just a little and a little more and....ruined it. I picked up a bunch of blanks and practiced until I was able to compensate the saddle and get the height right. Ovations are so much easier to adjust! |
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Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by John B:
That's not that obvoius to many people. I took one of my Martins to have the action lowered a bit and the first thing the guy reached for was the truss rod wrench. Needless to say, I didn't let him touch my guitar. I ended up sanding the saddle down just a little and a little more and....ruined it. I picked up a bunch of blanks and practiced until I was able to compensate the saddle and get the height right. Ovations are so much easier to adjust! glad you took it away from the guitar butcher...
the truss rod is not actually for adjusting the action, even though it does that in effect. too bad he didn't know that :eek: |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Let me add to this mess of a thread:
If you're going to play your guitar, it should feel and sound the way YOU like it. Factory setup is inconsistent. My 1778T came absolutely perfect (for me, at least) from the factory. Super low and no buzz. My 6778LX is set up different (from the same factory). There's probably different individuals setting these guitars up to whatever seems best to them. What I did awhile back was, to get an education (from the internet and other sources) in truss rod & saddle adjustment. This way you are assured to get a guitar that's comfortable to play, and sounds good. While there might be a slight tone vs. comfort issue by changing the action, IMHO, you'll play more, and even be more creative, on a guitar that's comfortable to you.
Joe |
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Location: SoCal | Factory setup is a generic, one size fits all. The reason for the shims is so that each guitar can be adjusted to suit the player. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Of course each person needs to have his guitar set up to suit himself. I tried taking out shims on three of my guitars and ended up putting them all back in because the sound suffered too much. That nasty break angle over the bridge thing got me.....
The only one of my guitars that I might like to lower the action on would be the 2005-ES....I wonder if the action was set as high as the factory dared for good sound???....because it sure has it(high action AND good sound)!!!!
Roger |
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Location: Australia | Maybe it's different in the US where the factory deals directly with the retailer but it's certainly not the case here.
The other day I had the opportunity to play a bunch of high end O's that had just landed (Adamas 12 fret, 2005 Ltd, a number a number of new LX models and a Al Di Meola) and all the setups were either bad or awful.
I'd also say I've never heard a flock of O's the sounded better acoustically.
....that Di Meola is calling my name, that thing rang like a bell. |
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Location: Norman, OK | 'Why is that Uncle Crusty?', you ask. Well, because that's where the sound comes out. Clearly, if you glued up your soundhole, you would do nothing more than keep the sound all bottled up inside the bowl. OK Uncle Crusty..... If your theory is correct then that would mean I need to take my power drill and a 1" forstner bit to my guitar in as many places as possible to maximize the sound output...BRILLIANT!...I'm going to go test your theory immediately....I'll let you know how it works.
:D Mike O |
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Location: Norman, OK | Seriously though, I appreciate the recent comments on this thread as I have been debating whether to lower the action on my new 1984 collector. I was not aware there was an impact to tone so I think I will leave it alone as the tone is great as is. Also curious if shim material plays a factor in tone? I assume all shims are made of mild steel?
Mike O |
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Location: SoCal | The shims on your guitar are made out of a pressboard, like a circuit board. Next time you change strings, pull out the saddle. Experiment with it. |
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Location: Norman, OK | Thanks Moody, I've never been brave enough to tear into one yet,Ive been afraid of damaging the wire leads to the pickup. But I did just get the owner's manual from Ernie so at least I've got an idea of what I'm looking at. Maybe I'll experiment on my Celeb first...Interesting material choice, I would have thought they would use something fairly acoustically transparent like metal.
Mike O |
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Location: SoCal | When you pull out the saddle, first, gently push it up from inside the guitar with the connecting wires. It's pretty easy.
Now, what I've always been a wuss about is adjusting the truss rod in the neck. Never felt comfortable doing that. |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Just to add to what moody said, if it's the "Original" old/new pickup (for lack of a better description), you can lift it straight up from both sides and gently move it aside. Take some Scotch/invisible tape and loop it sticky side out. Now take the tape and lift out the shim. I just finished doing this to my 6778LX. I took off the strings and removed both shims (a mistake). When I restrung the guitar, I noticed it was too low. I loosened all the strings, removed them from the posts, and gently lifted one side of the saddle/pickup, and put one shim back. Now it sounds AND feels great. My advice is to take them out one at a time. What should have taken 30 minutes, took a lot longer. This would be the only benefit of bridge pins.
Joe |
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| The sound hole is to let air flow and pressure change, not where the sound comes out.
The top moving like a speaker cone is what makes the sound. Of course it moves backwards too so you do hear some sound reflected from inside. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I thought the sound hole was so you could dust out the inside of your guitar. Dave |
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Location: Detroit area | I thought it was a place to store picks... |
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Does anyone actually leave the shims in?