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Location: N W Ohio | Bid on abd won a 75 1117-1. Big brown showed up around noon today, my wife took delivery and brought it inside. Arrive home around six excited to meet my latest. Knowing it had been inside for quite some time I was feeling safe to open the package right away. I was shocked, it wasn't a package. It was shipped UPS case only with lable on the side and three pieces of packing tape wrapped around the case. The brown case was in real good shape other then what looks to be a fairly new crack on the edge. Now I'm real nervous. Removed the packing tape and opened the case. The guitar is perfect, not a scratch and looks like it's new. But' waite a minute, it's not a 1117-1 but rather a 1112-1. There are only acouple of small issues with the guitar that I'll discuss later. Under the circumstances , what would you do? |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I love my Ovations but I still don't speak fluent model number language. Just what is the difference between a 1117-1 and a 1112-1?
And just to head off Cruster, Cliff, Noah, Al, CWK2, Baily, Moody, Dave and numerous Pauls.... yes..I know the difference is five. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Ooh.
If you paid Legend price, get a rebate. If you paid Balladeer price call it good. If you paid Applesauce price, be happy. :)
Maybe you could contact the seller and explain that they were wrong, the differences between the two, the price difference and work something out. |
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Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | Cruster is correct 17 Legend 12 Balladeer. Paid $230 plus 40 shipping which is a rip if it's packed right unless you pay someone to pack and ship for you. Bare case Big Brown, wrong description. I'm kind of pissed,but the guitar looks new,and just put new strings on it(never have seen any as green as what it came with)and it plays and sounds great. Again, what would you do/ |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Steve,can you post the link to the auction? |
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Posts: 1673
Location: SoCal | Islander, You did not receive what you purchased. Your case was part of the purchase and it is cracked. The guitar is the wrong model#. The Seller said that insurance was included in the shipping/handling.
I would write him an email. Telling him that the unprotected case was cracked in shipping and that the guitar is the wrong model# (a lesser value which you did not want). See what he says.
He had it insured. If UPS just left it at your door, you can call them and tell them they left a damaged shipment. If you or the Seller contacted UPS on damage, UPS would pick it up for inspection by their Damage Claim people, probably deny the claim because the case was actually used as the outer packaging, and route it back to the Seller. The Seller states, "ALL SALES ARE FINAL. I DO NOT OFFER REFUNDS OR RETURNS". If UPS relieves you of the shipment and it ends up back at the Seller's door, is it a RETURN? He had the responsibility to at least pack the merchandise according to the minimum guidlines of the carrier that is used. His failure caused the situation where you do not have the merchandise that he shipped you. eBay and PayPal would probably back you.
Now let's get to the alternate selfserving universe of the FleaBay ScumBag Seller: "The shipment is the Buyer's responsibility once it is shipped", "No refunds or returns", retalitory negative feedback, etc. They try to intimidate Buyers to back down. If enough Buyers stand their ground, the ScumBags would not find it profitable and straighten up, or go elsewhere.
It depends on you. I decided to overlook two situations this last month and it bothers me. |
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Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | UPS is not likely to cover the case because they do not consider packaging to be coverable for damage. When a case is shipped without a carton, the case IS the carton. I have been down this road with them, and they would not pay for a case damaged in shipment even though they acknowledged the damage. |
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Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I received a guitar shipped in only its case through USPS. I was shocked that anyone would ship it that way....and even more shocked that a shipper would accept it, whether it be USPS, UPS or whomever.
Fortunately, the case and guitar arrived in good condition but I certainly wouldn't ship anything that way. |
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Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by Paul Blanchard:
UPS is not likely to cover the case because they do not consider packaging to be coverable for damage. When a case is shipped without a carton, the case IS the carton. I have been down this road with them, and they would not pay for a case damaged in shipment even though they acknowledged the damage. I'd put a ten-spot on that. UPS won't pay. The seller apparently said "no returns". I hope you like your guitar.
What the heck, as long as you didn't pay an outrageous amount of money you got a nice guitar that you apparently liked the looks of, enjoy it. :) |
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Location: SoCal | Nils, So if a Seller says "no returns" and the item you receive is not what they said, the Seller gets to prevail with misrepresentation? |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Nils:
What the heck, as long as you didn't pay an outrageous amount of money... $270 is not pocket change. We have members here that struggle just to acquire their one and only guitar. |
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Posts: 112
Location: WV | After a long hiatus from eBay I recently made several purchases and there is definately a difference in the integrity of the sellers. IMO eBay used to be more of a "community" for lack of a better term. Buyers and sellers acted in a more professional manner. Now it seems that buying is risky at best. Some of you may remember my recent trials with the CC057 I purchased last month. Right now I have been waiting 2 weeks on a Zoom PS 02 multi-track recorder. The seller has not contacted me or answered my e mails. Will it finally arrive? Maybe. Will it be as described? I hope. Yes there are buyer protection methods that can be pursued. But I ask myself if the savings one can get on eBay are really worth the aggravation? I'm leaning toward no. I think a good way to stop sellers from acting irresponsibly would be to pay half of the cost at auction end and the other half after receiving the merchandise. That would shift the balance of power and even the playing field. However all this depends on peoples ability to act in an honest manner. And call me cynical but THAT ain't gonna happen! |
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Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | Islander, for the money you got a great deal on a nice guitar. It's not the guitar you thought you were getting, nor was it shipped in a way that anyone would consider appropriate. but in the end you got a good deal. If you like the guitar, I would just keep it. If you are really disappointed then you should return it. If you paid using PayPal, you're protected. They are really good at problem resolution like this. Dave |
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Posts: 7247
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | As others have said, it comes down to... Did you get an unexpected gem by mistake, or did you not get what you paid for? Depending on how you answer that question should guide your next step.
I agree that the eBay community has changed. A few years ago, only the experienced folks got on eBay, and it was easy to spot fraud or just plain mistakes. Now it's worldwide and pretty much anyone can sell. I still think 90% or more is just fine. The last 10% is a mix of people that range from folks that really don't understand the Internet or even just buying and selling online, to probably 1% of actual fraud. But remember, a few years ago 1% was a really small number. Now 1% of the ebay community is about 20,000+ people if my math is correct.
Like anything else, there was a time when we left our homes and cars unlocked when we went out. Now we lock the doors, set the alarms, put the lights on timers, and carry firearms just to make a quick trip up the street to pick up the carry out order.
Welcome to the new world order. |
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Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | Taking this in a different direction, having played 70's Ovations, I think you got a better deal than intended. I personally prefer the sound of the 70's X braced guitars to the VT braced guitars.
$230 for almost any Ovation in good condition is dirt cheap. I'd email the seller, let him know, then post the appropriate feedback (but be aware that if he hasn't posted your feedback, then it will probably mirror what you posted), and get on with your life. You can sell your Custom Balladeer for $3-$350 easy if you market it well.
But you do have a terrific guitar at a cheap price.
Hey, some days you're the dog and some days your the hydrant. |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I'd go with standing O on this one. But some people are just plain crooks. I'm looking to get a replacement travel guitar, and I see sellers asking for more than the full purchase price on a well used instrument. It seems to me that the ebay community is out of whack and it's everyman for himself. I understand we can't do anything about it, but it's wrong and eats me up when i see people being unfair. |
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Location: south east Michigan | So....has E-bay jumped the shark? |
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Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | Maybe a little late and repeating what has been said, but - if it is a nice guitar (I have a "74" 1112 and it is a gem!) that price was not bad.
I would challenge the Seller on the cost of shipping. West to East coast for a 12 string in the case with mucho extra cardboard, packing, in a guitar box and with insurance is $45. Been that, done there!
I would leave Neutral feedback just to show you are pissed and to encourage potential Buyers to email you. Neutral doesn't cause as much retaliation but it makes a lasting mark. (Passive aggressive behavior, I know!)
If you can recoop $30 I would consider it a success and lessons learned.
I also recieved a solid body in a non-Ovation HSC wrapped in USPS tape with a sticker! Fortunately the guitar was to be stripped and refinished. Tony Calman has it now.
Tony- I am almost done with the replacement pickguard - It is silky-smoove! |
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Location: Midland, MI | I don't think they've jumped the shark (at least not sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads). I do think that any time someone starts selling books titled 'How to get rich...' for any given market, the smart/good/easy money has been and gone. IOW, eBay is being overrun by get-rich-quick schemers who see the only way to maximize profit as:
a) Overprice their product and hope a sucker buys it
b) Over charge for s/h and hope a sucker buys it
c) Grossly misrepresent the item and hope that the threat of negative feedback/retaliation is enough of a disincentive for the buyer to not report it
Of course, there are other ways of maximizing profit...offerring items for sale that the seller is not in possession of (there was a post on the HFC not too long ago by someone who purchased a Hamer from an authorized dealer who was selling on eBay...3 weeks out and the guitar hadn't shipped as the dealer didn't have it from the mother ship yet...to me, that's fraud...and NO, AL WAS NOT THE DEALER).
They haven't jumped the shark...but they may be doing warm up laps in the parking lot. JM!SHO. |
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October 2004
Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | After having some time to cool off, I'm not unhappy with the guitar and the crack in the case is small and probably not worth the hassle. The guitar is in excellent shape and the case would have been. I did email the seller to point out his mistakes. No reply yet. We'll see what happens. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | You were deceived and detracted from but you still ended up with a "value"!
Could have been much worse. |
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Location: Converse, Texas | The point is -- the guitar was NOT what was advertised and NOT what you bid on. |
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Location: N W Ohio | I agree that I still got a good deal. The guitar is really nice. But it still makes me mad at the same time. |
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Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | Islander:
Paul Moody is absolutely correct. You actually have a superior guitar than what you thought you were bidding on. The Balladeer with X bracing is better than the old Legends with VT bracing.
Even though you have cooled off, don't let this a-hole seller off the hook just yet. I'd demand a $40 refund for the following reasons:
1) the guitar was incorrectly listed
2) a 1117 Legend is worth about $40-50 more than a 1112 Balladeer
3) the $40 shipping fee was a rip-off
4) The item was shipped without a packing carton resulting in damage to the case
Explain to the seller that you will file a dispute with eBay and/or post negative feedback if he doesn't refund the shipping charge. Posting a dispute into the eBay system is effective because if the dispute is legit and not resolved, the seller's eBay status could be effected. It's easy to post a dispute. Be sure to list the above 4 items in the dispute.
I'd definitely keep the guitar, you really got a GREAT deal. Just don't let the seller know that you are satisfied. |
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Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | That pretty much sums up the email I sent him. |
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Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | Let us know what happens. |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | believe it or not he had to pay UPS MORE to ship the guitar without a carton than he would have in a carton.
just the way it is. |
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October 2004
Posts: 124
| islander,
$230 for 1112 (Custom Balladeer) in NEW condition!!! you still complain??? should it be $130? you should just keep quiet & play the guitar.
if u don't want to run any risk, buy from Al.
i don't think anyone here would sell you a like new 1112 for $230. Probably $350. |
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October 2004
Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | Mr. Adamas,
I agree, but it's the principal of the thing. I took the afternoon off today and have been playing this guitar for a couple of hours. It's a deffinite keeper but I still don't like being deceived even though I probably got the best end of the deal. |
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December 2003
Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | "I wouldn't exactly call it "missing work"."
Office Space
Hey Brudda, no worries. You have the right to be upset. You also have a nice guitar in your hands.
:cool: ;)
See what the Tradewinds bring! |
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October 2004
Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | Update: Seller responded to my email, claims from his research he thought his description was correct. I think he searched past Ebay auctions for a sunburst then cut and pasted the pictures and copy from one that sold for a decent price. I pointed out that if he unsure of a product he should research on the manufacturer's web site rather then Ebay. He did ask what I thought would make the transaction "right". I told him I thought a $40 refund would satisify me or we could let Ebay make the call. Yes I still agree that I got a good deal on a nice guitar but I can't let go of the idea that it was misrepresented. If it had been a real bad deal I'm sure anyone of us would be fighting it all the way. I just don't want to see this type of thing happen. |
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Posts: 1673
Location: SoCal | Islander, Looks like the situation will resolve amicably.
You were smart asking the populous here for advice.
Before getting into a fight, it is always good to stop for a sanity check. You found a way to avoid the fight and also feel good with the outcome.
I have always fought on principle, sometimes expending resources out of proportion to what others perceived to be the yield.
Some one mentioned feedback previously… I would never bring up feedback (positive or negative) when trying to resolve an eBay dispute. eBay has rules against threatening (or implying) negative feedback. |
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July 2002
Posts: 1900
| Islander, It might have helped to talk with the seller personally and try and discern his explanations. It's not your responsibility to make excuses for the seller's mistakes. If they were honest mistakes that is one thing, but if they were intentional then it was fraud and misrepresentaion on the part of the seller and he will continue to take peoples confidence as well as their money. By now Ebay knows all the scams and I have learned they may be inclined to side with the seller unless otherwise motivated...
Steve |
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October 2004
Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | Final results: Seller refunded $40 shipping charges. It took a threat of further action, he tap danced for quite a while but finally came through. Maybe next time he'll do his homework better and will become a better Ebay seller. I feel better, thanks for the support, you guys are the best! |
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Posts: 13997
Location: Upper Left USA | Excellent!
Now, let's discuss our fees! :eek:
Really, glad you got some level of justice! |
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November 2002
Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Islander let me tell you an ebay story, and what happened to my brother. He won an auction for a really nice Guild guitar with a hardshell case. The lady selling it was not a musician, and she said she was selling the guitar for a friend. Well all went well until the guitar arrived at my brothers house. The lady had shipped the case in one box, and the guitar in another. My brohter could not believe that she could not figure out to put the guitar in the case then pack it up for shipping. The case made the trip ok, but the guitar had a crack in the wood on the back. She told my brother that someone had told her to pack the guitar and case that way. Well to make a long story short, the guitar went back to her in the case and my brother got a complete refund. |
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Posts: 81
Location: N W Ohio | MWoody, thanks I'll respect you in the mail and the check is in the morning or something like that. Paul, all Ebay stories aren't horrible,just most of them. I think I'm done with Ebay! (till tomorrow) |
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Ebay let the buyer beware!