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Location: Vernon, CT | Hey OFC Fans,
IMHO Jim Croce in the short two or so years he was with us before his death wrote and cranked out some really awesome guitar classics. I would rank him as one of the best acoustic guitarists in our time even though he was not able to go on and give us nmore fantastic music. The only electrics he ever used was a microphone for his singing. His guitar was straight acoustic with no amplification of any kind. He was unique and he played Ovations. Not sure of the one in the pics of him but check out the website http://www.classicbands.com for information in Jim C. as well as many other classic rockers. Play On!
John L. |
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Location: SoCal | Did Jim Croce write some great tunes? Hell yes. Fantastic song writer!
Was he a great performer? Again, hell yes!
Was he a great guitar player? Ah, questionable. He was a solid rhythm player, and accompanied himself well, but great, I don't think so. |
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Location: Converse, Texas | I have his DVD. Very good. |
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Location: Powder Springs, Ga. | You forgot the most importnat thing about Jim and what made him great...he's was Italian!
Bentman |
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| Wasn't he a Martin player??? |
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Location: Powder Springs, Ga. | On this site he's playing an Ovation.
http://www.hotshotdigital.com/tribute/JimCroce.html
But Martin made Jim Croce Honored Commemorative Edition Guitars
http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2000/Martin-Croce.html |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | The photo of Jim in the "book" shows him with a sunburst 1117 Legend. |
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Location: NJ | Most (if not all) of Croce's "lead" playing was played by his guitarist Maury Muellheissen (sp?).
I think Croce was just starting to get into Ovations around the time prior to the "I've Got A Name" album. Prior to that, it was pretty much all Martins . . . |
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Location: SoCal | Martin will build a "commemerative" model at the drop of a hat.
I've got the dvd that Craig mentioned. In it, both Jim and Maury play both Martins and Ovations. Interestingly, the Ovations are better suited even to the non-plugged-in stuff they are doing. The Martins sound good, the Ovations sound better. |
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma | Early on Croce played a Gibson songbird and also a gibson 12 string of some type... Maury (his lead guitarist) started with him playing a Martin D-18... Then they played both D-18's and D-28's... He started playing Ovations because at his live gigs it was easier to plug in rather than mic a Martin... On the three albums most people are familiar with ( I got a name, Life and Times & You don't mess around with Jim) ... I believe he and Maury both played Martins in the studio... But his Legend is shown in many pictures being played around his house... He was a hard working guy trying to make it playing his music and from what I've read he loved guitars but to him they were mainly just tools of the trade... (as if you couldn't tell.. I'm kinda of Croce nut) |
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Location: East Tennessee | moody is right Martin will make a special edition if someone famous even looks at one of their guitars in a music store.
With the dime inlaid at the third fret will make the guitar worth 10 cents no matter what. :D |
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| .....meaner than ajunkyard dog....
Poetry. |
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| The Martins sound good, the Ovations sound better! ;) |
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Location: Vernon, CT | Mr. Moody there are those that will disagree with you on that one. For example Eric Clapton is considered to be legend in his own time. However, there were a few years when he actually sucked in concert during his drug heyday and someomne else did all the hard riffs he was known for. Nowadays is a lot different. My point is this: all kinds of factors weigh into being in determining what is a great guitarist and I think you're being short sighted in your judgement.
John L. |
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Location: SoCal | "Mr. Moody there are those that will disagree with you on that one."
John, call me Paul. And it's fine to disagree with me. It's what makes this board strong. But I'll stand my my assessment. While Croce was a great songwriter and perfomer, he was just a so so guitar player. I'm not ripping him, just stating a fact. There is no recording ever made that indicated he was a great guitarist. No hot licks, no nothing. In an Acoustic Guitar story on him from a couple of years back, it said that he met Maury in the studio, playing backup for Maury, which (and this is in the article) was a bit of a joke because he couldn't hold a candle to Maury as a guitarist.
He was a great performer and an even better songwriter who died tragically before his time. But he was really only a fair guitar player.
Lastly, you made the comparison to Clapton, regarding EC during his drug years. Are you saying that during the early 1970's when Croce was making a name for himself, he was on drugs, hence his not great playing?
John, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you as I always enjoy your posts. Feel free to disagree with me and prove me wrong. Or just say that in your opinion Croce was a great guitar player. I'll let it go there. |
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Location: NJ | neither Martin or Ovation are coming after me to make a commerative model.
maybe I need some better friends |
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Location: Midland, MI | No hot licks? NOOOO hot licks? What about 'Roller Derby Queen?' Huh? How about...oh, I don't know, 'Speedball Tucker?' You want licks? Try 'Operator' Mr. Funny-man!
Ok, maybe not. :D |
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Location: North Carolina | I grew up listening to Jim, and feel like I know every word to every song he ever published(Try me). But, I'm a beginner, so my opinion of whether someone is a great guitar player or not means nothing to anyone but me. However, I don't think that you have to play hot licks to be a great guitar player. In my opinion, playing the right note at the right time makes you a good guitar player, and I think Croce was a good guitar player. However, he was a great song writer, and I think his playing complimented the songs he wrote. Nothing too fancy, but real and heart felt. Unless someone else comes along to change my mind, Jim Croce will always be my favorite singer/song writer/ guitar player. And he had a great sense of humor!
"...he wore them skintight body velvet shirts,
that cat could knock you right into the dirt,
and if you got you no money, or you try to get funny, that mutha you gonna see..." |
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| Jim's brother actually lives down here in Indian River County(Vero Beach) he's an administrator for the county hospital,met him,Richie Havens and Arlo Guthrie at the Indian River Festivals/Save the Lagoon benefits. have worked with Arlo on 4 of the events over the years (attended 8 or 9) was a big deal and great show till some of the multimillion dollar retirees complained about the "noise" on their precious John's island...(so much for the environment but then whole acres of mangroves and marsh/flats disappear overnight on a regular basis around here but noone knows what happened to em'). Jim's brother does have some early works on cassette which he graciously gave copies of to another friend of mine at the hospital. gonna give him a call and see if I can get a copy or two. Arlo is involved with the Kashi ranch down here and also has a residence in Sebastian on the Indian river.(old fish cannery that he's converted to a home and studio).. hope Mark still has the tapes gonna call him tomorrow..
Jim, Cat, and Glen are the reasons I fell in love with Ovations in the first place.
God Bless,
Glenn |
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Location: Midland, MI | Arlo rulez.
EDIT: 335 epi project? What is that all about??? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Hey now....don't forget the AlPep commerative model, the TB100 Artist! |
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| RE: epi/335 project (sorry for thread twist)
I have a Beautiful 1998 Ebony/Ivory Epiphone es335 set neck ALL!epi hardware and electronics are gone. replaced nut w/wilkinson roller and string tree, chrome grovers, gibson usa pots, bee resistors and vintage caps jumpered in, aged nickel gibson PAF's, switchcraft 60's era shorty switch, B/W speed knobs, flatwound chromes,
waiting on:
(currently shipping) 3ply black/white flamed birch pg,
Schaller Nickel roller bridge(just won) shipping w/in the week.
considering Schaller Les Trem unit,
hoping to find:
Kahler or Schaller Stud mount 220? 2200? trem unit that doesn't require me to dig a hole in the body.
the one with the fine tuners pretty rare piece of hw) ties down to the bridge and tp studs combo trem/bridge assembly,
may go to Duncan's on the pickups waiting for the rest of the HW to arrive and to do all the tweaking of the pps and different setups b4 I make a decision tho,
Gonna be a pretty nice 335 when I get her finished at about 1/4 the price.
woz's son should have rec'vd the other custom pg
I was going to install by now. Hope Beau Likes it
kinda like it w/o a pg tho don't know if I'll install the birch or not.
Brett down @ Howies is gonna do some binding and HS work for me gonna bind the f's and maybe cut the hs and replace w/different headplate.
Having fun with it and with all the mods is turning into a real screamer. B4 pics are in the members section.
others soon to follow.
God Bless,
Glenn |
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Location: WV | Don't want to take this topic into the "The Best I Ever Heard" zone but I guess I will. Dave Mason in a one man acoustic show at the old Stanley Theatre in Pittsburgh, mid 70's. Also Stephen Stills solo in Columbus around the same time (I think). Those years are kinda blurry ;) What I'm trying to say is that the "Best" is a very subjective opinion. Hell, I grew up with a guy that probably could have played with the best of them on any given night. I prefer to just enjoy good music and not analyze it too much. OK I'm going to go now. I have to call Martin back about the Commemorative Model they want to make for me........ |
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| Best, Worst, Most Famous, recognized, or unheard of... It's Music. Gift,Art,Language,expression, praise and Legacy to all in our circle.
Kinda why I like this planet.
God Bless,
Glenn |
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Location: Isle of Man, UK | Art rocks!
You're right, Glen. I like art, and it's fine that some people don't like some things. Let's face it, if that's the case, there's a danger that we'd all be listening to nothing but the Backstreet Boys. Nothing wrong with them per se, but variety is the spice of life!
Taking for example, the Rockabilly 3-piece I play with. We have some tracks suggested by the double-bass player that are classed as "Psychobilly" (classic rockers, but with way overdriven guitars). Not my sort of thing, but none of us have fallen out over it!
Yet. He'll learn!
As to Mr Croce (vainly trying to stay on topic!), I have the great pleasure of singing Leroy for a Big Band, and that's a truly great song. I'll be looking deeper into his music when my wallet has recovered from 3 recent O purchases...
Cheers, all.
JB |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Croce wrote some good stuff, but the real guitar genius was his side man Maury Maulhausen (sp?). he played some great acoustic riffs. I'm not sure how long Croce played Martin vs. Ovation but for some reason I think of him more as a Martin player, I guess because of the LP Cover. On the DVD he seems to play more Ovation. Anyway, good stuff no matter what name is on the box. Dave |
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Location: Atlanta, GA. | There was a special about Jim Croce on TV several years back. I remember his wife saying he wrote a lot of his best tunes in a very short timespan (2-3 weeks) trying to make a recording session deadline. or something to that effect.
Most of my Croce is on 8-track, and an LP or two... |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | No Question About it, Jim Croce was amazing. Now as far as guitarist's goes I'd say he was very good but he would have probably told you thatwhile he was a solid rhythym player maury complemented and added to the arrangement. Jim was a songwriting machine and gave a variety of styles in his music from the acoustic rock-n Roll of "Rapid Roy" to the smooth mellow sound of Time in a Bottle. I wish he was still here. |
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Location: New York, NY | I was never crazy about "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" and "You Don't Mess Around With Jim", but "I've Got A Name" is one of my all time favorites.
"...if it gets me nowhere, I'll go there proud."
That is SUCH a great line! |
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Location: North Carolina | " I was so afraid to touch you,
Thought you were too young to know,
so I just watched you sleeping.
Then you came and said to me,
the night is cold it frightens me,
I could sleep so easy next to you.
We spent the whole night talking,
You said you'd like to see the sun rise.
But in the gold of morning,
was nothing that I had not seen in your eyes.
hmm-mm hmm-mm"
(From "A long Time Ago)
That, my friends, is poetry! |
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Location: North Carolina | Sorry for the wasted space, but this should be my 20th post.
"Well he musta thought I was a Rockafella
or an uptown man of wealth.
He said now boy I got the car that was made for you, and it's cleaner than the board of health." |
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Location: Converse, Texas | Paul:
Isn't Mr. Moody your dad?
I agree with Paul. Croce was a decent rhythm player and a GREAT songwriter. |
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Location: Vernon, CT | Paul,
A healthy debate is good and agreeing to disagree is fine. That's what part of this great website and exchange is about. There are probably some guitarists I think stink or are not so good IMHO that others would take offense to. But that is okay with me. It would be boring if we all agreed.
John L. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Good timing. I just started playing my O again after many years, bought 2 more since Christmas and learned "I'll Have to Say I Love You". Croce was one of the reasons I got my first Ovation in 1977 and I tried to learn that song for my wife then. I couldn't figure it out, so learned "Time In a Bottle" instead. After 28 years I still love the songs he wrote. There's a nice little booklet about him in his double CD. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | A Favorite JC lyric:
Well I had just got out from the county prison
Doin' 90 days for non-support
Tried to find me an executive position
But no matter how smooth I talked
They wouldn't listen to the fact that I was genius
The man said, We got all that we could use... |
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Location: SoCal | John L, I can disagree with friends all the time. Still friends. Being around people who agree with me 100% is boring.
Last October my wife and I were down in San Diego and had dinner at Croce's. Met Ingrid and she bought us dessert. A very nice lady. Back in our hotel room, I picked up my Deluxe Balladeer (which I brought to serranade my wife), and started relearning I'll Have To Say I Love You In A Song. Jim Croce wrote strong, powerful tunes and beautiful ballads. He was terrific.
In fact, at the last OFC gathering, I seem to remember in the hotel lobby, some of his tunes being done. And everybody joined in. |
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma | It's so great to see the appreciation of Jim Croce and Maury Muehleisen.. (and yes that is how you spell his name)... Although there is dispute about his specific skills, I will say that if you can play both the lead and the rhythm lines you can play just about anything..,.
Great to see the love man.. |
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Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma | Another thing for all of you who want to learn the music and the lyrics of Jim Croce... Get on ebay and find a music book... "Jim Croce: His Life and Times"..... You won't regret it.... the last copy cost me about $25... I've bought about 4 now and given 3 of them away... ( I lost my first one)... The narrative and the music will serve you well... Great lyrics, great music... |
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Location: Tennessee | My daughter recently gave me a disc she thought I'd like ... a new artist by the name of Adrian James Croce (album of the same name). Remember the curly haired tot on the album "Photographs and Memories"? Yup, the kid is grown up now. The liner notes thanks Ingrid. My daughter had no idea of the connection to Jim Croce ... in fact, she didn't know who Jim Croce was. A few spins on the turntable and she recognized a few of the tunes ... and then of course remembered the Ovation I pointed out on the wall of Croce's in the Gaslamp district of San Diego when we ate there a few years back.
Pretty good album. Sort of Wallflowers/McCartney/Fastball/with a bit of Buddy Holly thrown in. But unique it its own way. I've been playing it a fair bit and it stands up both musically and artistically.
P.S. She also gave me the new Paul Westerberg. Pretty good kid, eh? |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | Jeff W,
Workin' At the Car Wash Blues...
What A great Song.. Fun, Upbeat..With a great hook.
You're right..Great Lyrics. |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
My daughter recently gave me a disc she thought I'd like ... a new artist by the name of Adrian James Croce Interesting. I knew he had been singing for a while, and, I think, writing his own songs. But, as a young child, he was always known as "AJ". (I never even knew what the "AJ" stood for!) |
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Location: NJ | I was QUITE surprised when I found this over the weekend, as I thought I'd lost it YEARS ago:
I'd done this when I was NINETEEN (egad!) years old.
Approx. 11" x 14" pen & ink on cold-pressed illustration board.
The image on the left is the original drawing in colour(s) and has been pretty much damaged/discoloured from years of musty basement storage. The one on the right is an 11"x17" b&w Xerox copy made from the original when it was new.
Ironically, the Xerox has seemed to fair better.
The middle shows a highlight of the signature (which probably isn't too legible at this piss-ant size/resolution) which was completed on my birthday 2-24-NineteenSeventyFIVE!!! (oy!)
Oddly enough, I'd done this BEFORE I even OWNED my first Ovation (which I didn't get till the following year). The Croce "pose" came from a photo inside of the "I've Got a Name" songbook that I pencil-sketched onto the board and then "stippled" with tiny ink dots with a small drawing quill. The main foreground was done in black, the sky/clouds in blue, and background landscape in yellow/brown/black inks.
I'd venture to guess having this much "intimate knowledge" with an Ovation (at that age) helped to solidify the decision to actually buy one a year later . .
hmmm . . . maybe for my "50th", I'll have this tattooed onto my back . . ;) |
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Location: SoCal | Cool drawing. If you do have it tattoed, a number of us would be willing to come watch and cheer you on. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Very cool. It's alway nice to find a "lost relic"! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I'm a bit concerned that Cliff was drawing naked pictures of Jim Croce.
...regardless of how well its done |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Yes, but the guitar is very tastefully positioned. Kind of like Inspector Clouseau at the nudist camp... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "Does your dog bite?" |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
I'm a bit concerned that Cliff was drawing naked pictures of Jim Croce.
...regardless of how well its done I was going to ask about that, but I was afraid of what the answer might be. |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
"Does your dog bite?" That's not my dog. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | He could drawing one of you playing at the factory at this very moment. |
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Location: closely held secret | !!! How did you know I was at the factory??? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | :D |
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Location: East Tennessee | The guitar playing Jim & Maury did was exactly what acoustic guitars should do. Add to the lyrics, not get in the way of them.
"Time in a Bottle", One of the best songs he did. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Maybe I'm missing something here but I was also a huge JC fan growing up and one of the reasons I fell in love with the music was the lyrics were great, the licks (Maury's) were killer and the progressions were insane. I remember trying to get my hands around some of his chords and thinking that he just HAD to be one of the greatest to structure a song progression.
So despite the fact that Maury playted all the quick stuff, I'm gonna have to fall on the side that says he was pretty darn proficient.
Just another .02 cents. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Originally posted by Waskel:
Originally posted by Jeff W.:
"Does your dog bite?" That's not my dog. |
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Location: Evansville,IN | I'm sorry to say I never got to see Jim Croce live. That is the true test of a guitar players ability. I liked most of his songs, but you know how they fill in recorded music. :rolleyes:
I have seen Arlo Guthrie, Gordon Lightfoot, James Taylor, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. All were good, but just never had the opportunity to see Jim Croce. I'm sure he put on a good show also. :D |
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Location: Venice, Flo | Sometimes it is not the skill level that makes a great guitar player. It's what he played, how he played it and how it grabbed our soul. I don't think "hot licks" is the end of all measurement that we should focus on. Jim Croce's songs are so memorable. The licks's are there simple and to the point. |
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Location: SoCal | Just to add my final $.02 here, meatpill is right. I don't think Croce was a hot guitarist, but he was one helluva musician and made great music. The guitar was just a tool he used to get the music out.
I've got an uncle who used to play guitar. Only knew 7 chords, but he made great music. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Glad you bumped this one, meatpill, so I could get in my 2 cents after I got back in town. I have spent a lot of time learning the Croce parts to a lot of his ballads, both when they were new back in the 70's when I started playing and recently when I got back into it. When I discovered tabs, I downloaded all that I wanted to learn and the only one that is right is the first line to Time In a Bottle. Even though they all sound so simple, tabbers get them wrong.
I think Jim was brilliant with his lyrics and his simple melodies on guitar. Consider that he wrote, "I Have to Say I Love You" overnight for his wife. It took me forever to get that one down note for note.
He does a basic chord progression on most songs that you can easily follow at least the base note, but then I always get lost when the singing or violins come in. I'm still working on a few missing measures of "New York's ..." that I can't pick up despite watching it over and over on the DVD. "Dreamin' Again" is another work in process. Then back to "Operator", which I gave up on 30 years ago. I could spend the rest of my life learning to play the songs he put together in a few short years. |
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Location: SoCal | Mark:
I may have some of those tunes in a music book. If I do, I'd be happy to fax copies to you. Email me off the board moody.pi@cox.net |
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Location: Cicero, NY | I have a fairly large book of his as well if you're missing anything. Can't recall the name of the book but it was pretty complete and you (and anyone else who might be interested) are welcomed to copies. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Thanks, guys. I have his sheet music of his songs. Got it 30 years ago and didn't find it to be of much use. I'm a stickler for playing exactly as recorded and the sheet music was all arrangements that didn't match what I knew. It's a little tougher with a CD than when I used to pick it up off tapes. I'm going to go back to my original method of recording on my old Sony reel to reel and play it back at half speed if I have to. I also used a Norelco cassette player. (One of the original cassette recorders.) The nice thing about it was it had instant rewind. I used to wear out those rewind switches, but I still have both decks in working condition. |
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Location: NJ | Tascam makes a small unit that'll allow you to slow down a CD track (down to half speed I believe) without changing pitch. It's designed for learning solos . . . |
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Location: SoCal | There's comparatively cheap too. About $250... |
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Location: closely held secret | Try some inexpensive software called "SlowBlast" first. $20. |
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Location: Venice, Flo | You can also get SlowGold. http://www.worldwidewoodshed.com/ Computer software to slow down the music without changing pitch. Also, I reccommend Guitar Pro 4 http://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php for the Computer. You can tab you own or others music and have the computer play it back. Slow it down, loop particular bars, etc. There is also a web site where people they mimic what they hear from various artists in guitar pro format. Thousand of songs. http://www.mysongbook.com/
YOu can import or export midi, tabl as many tracks and instruments as you need. The voice lines usually sound cheesy. But as a learning/practacing tool or writing your own music - it is great! A fantastic training tool. |
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May 2005
Posts: 120
Location: Gardnerville, NV | The Tascam unit is available as "A" stock closeout for $97.00 from http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/catagories.html
I've done business with them in the past with good results. |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12754
Location: Boise, Idaho | My old reel to reel already does that with the flip of a switch. Amazing what 1965 technology can do. |
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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
My old reel to reel already does that with the flip of a switch. Amazing what 1965 technology can do. Your 1965 R/R can do half speed and maintain pitch? You're right, that is amazing. I can't think of any analog way to shift pitch and retain any semblance of the original harmonic relationships. In our DSP world it's almost trivial, but back in the old days it would take, at the least, a number of analog operations to pull off. Simply playing at half speed isn't quite the same. Although you might be able to do something pretty strange by playing the tape half speed and accompanying with a six string bass :eek: |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12754
Location: Boise, Idaho | Obviously, the notes a lower at half speed. Back in those days my ear had no problem translating that back up to the right notes on the guitar. I used to have about a 5 octave range with my voice then, too, but that went away somewhere. |
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Jim Croce - One of the Greatest Acoustic Guitarists!