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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | I have an interesting situation...
My Adamas (with the fake-man on-board tuner). Tunes easily and maintains tuning pretty well...however...
The intoantion seems to be pretty bad, specifically the low E and A strings. If I tune the open E for a green dot on the tuner and fret at any position, I am sharp. Pretty dramatically so. If I tune fretted/capoed, things are significantly better. String age impacts this mildly.
My intuitive thinking on this is that perhaps the nut is messed up in some fashion, causing the string length to vary (by possibly altering the contact position). Anybody think this is reasonable?
The distance from the saddle side of the nut to the saddle contact point is 25 1/4 on the high E and 25 7/16 (approximately) on the bass E. The action is pretty close to w2's description in the nearby 'setup' thread.
String brand seems to have no effect. I have used, without noticing any significant improvement, D' Addario, Adamas, and WebString (kind of generic). In each case I use light gauge.
Also, is there a correct orientation for the saddle (pre-emptive observation - yes, it is predominantly oriented across the bridge, under the strings). It does appear to be pretty much symmetric. |
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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Have you tried the harmonic at the 12th fret? Have you had someone else try the guitar?
Remember fretting has an effect on sharpness. Check the string heights and if the frets are excessively tall.
You might find this useful:
http://www.pjguitar.com/article1.htm |
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Joined:
January 2004
Posts: 1225
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | The 12th fret harmonic is the best way to check it. If you are using more pressure than is needed to fret the strings, it can make them fret sharp also. That said, the intonation on most acoustics is not perfect. On a traditional acoustic, you could have the saddle re-shaped or "compensated" for intonation, but I'm not sure if that can be done with an Ovation saddle. Anyone? |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | The numbers mentioned recently were for nylon strings which are higher than steel string.
Nylon, 4/32B and 3/32T
Steel 3/32B and 2/32T although some like it 3.5/32 and 2.5/32
Electrics 2.5 and 2
These are what I like, you may like it slightly higher or lower depending on your playing style, guage of strings and all the rest of those variables. |
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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | The harmonic thing would not seem to be very useful , other than to check the tuner in some fashion. If the fundemental mode of the string is 'in tune,' is it possible for the first octave to be 'out of tune?' But I did try this and it does appear to be in tune at the 12th fret harmonic when the oepn string is in tune (The same holds true if I capo it at the first fret but now the octave fretted string is in tune as well as the octave harmonic.
Also, I have tried varying pressures while fretting, but at the lightest touch (resulting in a totally dead sounding string) it is still very sharp. To the extent that even I can hear it. At the twelfth fret, the sharpness is indicated on the tuner but I can't really tell much difference between the fretted string and the harmonic. But that is pretty unreliable, I proabably spent too much time sitting near the steam turbines on the sub. I don't trust what I hear too much, otherwise I'd have to give up the guitar...
I did remove the saddle at one time. Is there a wrong way to replace it? |
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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | If the harmonic at the 12th fret is correct, then forget worrying about the saddle. The problem is with fretting. You gotta do the next two things, have someone else play it, have him give you an opinion on the fret heights and you should check the string height above the frets, particularly the low e above the 12th fret. Let us know what happens. |
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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | I had a local music store owner try it with an eye towards perhaps handing it over to a local luthier. His opinion was that the action was fine and in fact the instrument seemed overall good. Then again, he was a bluegrass player :eek: . Amongst my circle of friends I am probably one of the more accomplished musicians which just means I need to find a different group cause I'm not all that good. And I was specifically evaluating my fretting technique wen I mentioned varying pressures. I'll find some testers and get more information... |
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Joined:
January 2003
Posts: 1498
Location: San Bernardino, California | A couple of possiblilites.
1) If the nut slots are cut for a smaller gauge string than you are using then the strings will sit higher in the slot causing the string to stretch when you fret. The closer to the nut the worse it will get.
2) The nut slots may not be cut deep enough. Same symptoms as above.
If you have #1 you should be able to see a gap under the string in the slot. |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | when you fret at the 3 fret you should see a gap of .002 between the string and the first fret, not touching but veeeeeeery close. |
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Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | So I changed the strings last night and...
It made a pretty big difference. I'm trying Webstrings XL-Light. This is the first time I've tried strings this light. The string sizes are 50w, 40w, 30w, 23w, 15, 11. The intonation is now extremely close, my hamfisted fret technique does cause issues but at least if I am very attentive, the instrument can play in tune. I also noticed the the slots in the nut were discolored (roughly half the nut width) on the E, A and D strings, Looked as though someone had burnished bronze onto those slots, like maybe the string wasn't held properly. I'm pretty sure now that there is something unusual about the nut, which means that at this point I'm out of my depth/skill set. Time to find someone that does this for a living. |
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Intonation