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Location: Warren,Pa. | Coming back from the tour sold on the concept. I heard plenty of Ovations with this soundhole configuration, and they sound GREAT. So I got to thinking...I can take my StdElite LX and put something up against the back of the treble soundholes and maybe get the same effect. What should I use??? Has to be flat black. Opinions??? John <>{ |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I think Al sells some kinda plugs that fit in the hole to dampen the sound. |
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| Couldn't you just use feedback busters? Just a thought. |
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| Great minds....... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | :D :cool: ;) |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I thought of those, but I was thinking of something I'd keep in there regularly. When I look at those holes I can't really see the bowl...it just looks like flat black in there. If I took a piece of...say...Formica and put the BACK of it up against the soundboard attached with a couple of dots of Goop. I think THAT would look just like what it looks like NOW. I could remove it if I wanted to, but it wouldn't draw attention to itself like the feedback busters would. I guess I want function without changing the way the guitar looks. |
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Location: closely held secret | I don't see how you can put a sheet of anything glued in behind those holes and not affect the movement of the top. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I only say this based on my observations, so you probably heard something more informative on the tour. My observation is that when there's no treble sound hole, there's less chance of feedback, the bass is more pronounced because the lack of a port for treble sound to get out attenuates the treble. So if your primarily playing acoustically, the holes on both bouts would be the way to go. If your gigging, then go with holes only on the bass side. I'm curious what they said. Thanks. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | The issue is not just feedback. I think it varies by guitar, but on a few that I have experimented removing the treble holes makes a heck of a difference in the unplugged sound. For some reason especially true on supershallow elite and adamas and deep adamas. I own identical adamas II deep bowls one with holes on both bouts and the other on the bass side only. The difference in sound is significant. I don't know all the physics, but my ears tell me its good. Dave |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | They said the first time they made a guitar with only bass soundholes they listened and said "that's really cool!". How scientific was that!? Anyway, I'm gonna do it. My OP Pro doesn't have a notch filter. So, if eliminating the treble holes makes feedback less likely that's OK with me. By the way...I've NEVER had feedback with this guitar. Why is that? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Have you ever plugged it in? |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I'm such an idiot! |
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| :D
Tacoma and several boutique builders have built them off-centre (always on the bass side) for years. I played a maccaferri gypsy guitar once with the D hole turned sideways and stuck up on the top shoulder like an insane smiley. It looked awful but it sounded really good. I can't think of any reason why it should work, but it obviously does. Perhaps W2 has some inside info.
I've also seen archtops with just an f hole on the top side. |
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Location: Waurika OK | Why don't you try the feedback busters as a temporary experiment and if you like that, then proceed to a more permanent fix.
Or you could just buy an Elite T. Not a fancy guitar, but good playing and sounding one. |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | Al is sending me a set of Airlocks. |
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Location: Scotland | Theres a scientific explanation as to why the single epaulete guitars sound the way they do. Soundhole size in relation to the volume of air in the soundbox affects the guitars Helmholtz frequency. This is somewhat of an oversimplification, but a slightly smaller soundhole given the same air volume will produce a slighlty lower Helmholtz frequency and consequently a perceived lift in bass response. No soundhole, or a larger soundhole has the opposite effect |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | What a friggin' know-it-all! I got yer helmholtz frequency right here, buddy!
Actually (and Paul is a dear friend of mine), there's lots of smart technical people in this world but somehow Professor Temp has a way of making this stuff understandable. Even to someone like me.
Dave |
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Location: NJ | If you look through some of the pics of the Jam at the ski lodge, you'll see a couple of Master Keller's Adamas acoustic bass. It has it's soundholes in this configuration, and the SOUND of this thing is absolutely PHENOMENAL! |
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Location: closely held secret | Thanks, Paul. That explains the great bottom end on the Koa's.
In your opinion, is the fact that the single-hole had more bass response because of the single hole or because it was a 12-fret? |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Waskel:
In your opinion, is the fact that the single-hole had more bass response because of the single hole or because it was a 12-fret? I don't think any instruments sound can be attributed to a single factor, it's always a sum of the parts. |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I don't think any instruments sound can be attributed to a single factor, it's always a sum of the parts. Ooooohkay. I guess what I'm asking is (in your opinion) would the multi-hole top with the 12 fret neck be likely to have as good of bass response as the single hole with the 12 fret neck? |
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Location: NJ | If you're talking about those koa models, I think that they BOTH had "bass-only" soundhole(s) . . . . and Darren told me that the oval hole was specifically designed to move as much air as the multi . . . |
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Location: closely held secret | Yeah, the multi was bass-side as well. Just wondering if the 12-fret neck was the key to the difference in sound between the two. |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I REALLY like to have an explanation like Paul's. I also heard enough evidence on the tour to absolutely convince me that this works. I heard Johnny's 12 string at the jams and...well...never heard a 12 string sound like THAT before! The airlocks are THIS poor man's solution for the sound. ALMOST as important to me is the cool look of bass-only holes. Maybe someday..... |
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Location: Tampa, FL | Master Templeman, you mention only volume and opening area as variables. Since you mention this is a simplified explanation, I expect you assume a general similarity in box shape and dimensional ratios. What I'm curious about is do you know if placement is much of a factor? Or is placement pretty much discretionary and the designer can place the opening as he chooses to optimize other factors. |
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Location: Scotland | The shape of the soundhole is pretty much an aesthetic consideration, on oval hole or round hole, or for that matter a cluster of holes wont make much of a difference tonally as long as the size is a constant. Placement is another issue, moving the hole/holes away from the centre of the top allows for a greater area of soundboard to vibrate. The Shape of the box can be another variable, in that boxes with parallel surfaces (eg dreadnoughts) can promote standing waves whose frequencies are related directly to the box dimensions. The lack of parallel surfaces in an Ovation bowl will distribute the standing waves more evenly. I've often thought that this could be one of the factors that contributes to Ovations signature sound. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Interesting to me...last year prior to the new MEII1598 coming out (which is the newer version of the Melissa Etheridge 12 string Adamas with one set of soundholes) I saw Melissa's ME1598 (original ruby version) very close up. The soundholes on the treble (string) side were plugged in with wood painted flat black to seal 'em up, in order to sound closer to the newer model...and still not be so obvious. Apparantly she was not 'ready' yet to play the new one publicly, so she modded the old one for performances in the meantime.
Anyway...
Johnny |
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| On several upmarket guitars (and I do mean UPmarket - John Montleone and several classical makers) they offer a port in the side - top shoulder - so that the player hears what the audience hears. It doesn't appear to affect the front projection at all, although nobody's ever let me play one to find out. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Waskel:
[/qb] Ooooohkay. I guess what I'm asking is (in your opinion) would the multi-hole top with the 12 fret neck be likely to have as good of bass response as the single hole with the 12 fret neck? [/QB]
My guess would be that they'd sound pretty similar, all things being equal, which they rarely are. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | So the removal of the lower bout soundholes increases the base response while decreasing the treble response. From the above, I get the vibe that most people want to give up some high end for more bass. I'm stickin' to my preferences though, holes on both sides for pure acoustic playing and holes on one side for amplified.
PS: Thanks for the explanation PT |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
My guess would be that they'd sound pretty similar, all things being equal, which they rarely are. Paul, I was going to tell you that you make a lot more sense when you type than you do when you talk.
Now I'm not so sure.
Have you ever considered politics? :D |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | Paul, Sometime I wouldn't mind reading a post with a more thorough explanation of the Helmholtz frequency. I know I'll get comments about being a geek, but I'll also bet I'm not the only one who wants to hear more. Maybe a link to save you some time...but then it's fun to hear it in YOUR words. Tks, John <>{ P.S.- Thanks for being so kind to Lisa on the tour. That was her first time rubbing elbows with the BIG guys and she's got enough inspiration to move her playing 10 levels higher. |
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Location: NJ | John;
If you do a search in the archives for "Helmholtz"
(narrowing the search down by searching only Master Templeman's post - by entering his Member #), you'll find a quite nifty, descriptive post that he did a couple years ago (if I remember correctly) . . . . . |
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Location: Scotland | John, I pulled these off the post Cliff mentioned
http://www.hesston.edu/academic/faculty/nelsonk/PhysicsResearch/Gui...
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.web.stuff/billington/air.html
they explain some of the acoustic physics of guitars in relatively simple terms |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | By "relatively simple" I take it to mean you think even I could grasp it. |
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Multi-Soundholes, bass side only