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Location: Tampa, FL | So I've heard about this lack of respect thing. I've experienced it elsewhere. Can somebody tell me how it originated? Is it nothing more than 'Ovations are different and change is bad'? Or 'It doesn't sound like my (insert biodegradable brand name here) therefore it is bad.'
I had a storeowner in SLC tell me, "You can like Ovation necks, and you can like their durability, but nobady can say they like the sound. I'm a small guy so I can stock what I like." He didn't carry any O's but he did have some kind of Daisy thing. I didn't (and don't) understand what he meant.
Can somebody enlighten me or is this one of those, "If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer" things? I really don't get it. I tried a bunch of guitars in that SLC store, and I wasn't overly impressed with anyting he had. From Tacoma, Gibson, Alvarez, nothing seemed special.
I've done the same in a local GC. I'm missing something here. |
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Location: Tampa, FL | Even over at Guitar Talk they will accpet Rainsong and CA, but Ovations get a bad rap most everywhere you go. I'm not getting it |
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Location: SE Michigan | I think the public respect level of Ovations is on the upswing. I see a lot more interest and hear a lot more buzz about Ovations these days.
But the big issue most people have is the "plastic bowl". If it was made out fozzilized Walrus Dung people would love it. You can tell them it's space-age lyrichord all day long, to some it's still plastic. The bowl used to be a virtue, it was thought to add to the sound ( I think it still does, particularly straight out in front of the guitar).
I think the other big issue is when Ovation started flooding the market with cheap plywood top Korean models that appear identical to the high end US made stuff. Many guitar snobs base their narrow opinion on strumming a cheap plywood top model. I think this is where the "Ovations dont sound good" stereotype came from. I have to admit I have heard some Korean models in particular that sounded pretty sorry. Most people who dismiss Ovations have never really played (or listened to) a high end model.
That and the shallow bowl models...a shallow bowl is no more intended to be "acoustic" than say a Gibson ES335 is supposed to be an acoustic, these are really meant to be plugged in performance guitars.
I hope Ovation will do more to differentiate their high end from low end stuff. And they are focusing on recovering some of the unplugged mojo that was lacking in years past. Try a U681 or a 2005 collectors model and see for yourself. |
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Location: Midland, MI | When I bought my 1868, I tried *every* guitar in the local mom and pop's acoustic room. From $79 Jay Jr. 3/4 size boxes up to the incredibly expensive (I'd say overpriced, but I'm a feckless chav so it doesn't count) GibMarTayDers. After leaving there, I went to the local Guitarget(tm) and tried everything within reach in their acoustic room. I went back two days later and bought my Elite, a 15 year old super-shallow bowl Ovation. To me, it sounded the best. I like the sound, even unplugged. It's even and balanced across the strings and up the neck like nothing else I've played.
The storeowner in SLC is entitled to his opinion, certainly, but as Kant would have it, perception is reality. Therefore, in my reality, the storeowner is grossly misshapen. Er, mistaken, too. Out of touch with reality, as it were.
It has been my experience, over the last year or so, that many of the people who are most vocal in their opposition and denigration of Ovations have never actually played one. It's kind of like me bashing the Gibson Les Paul (actually, I have played several, including the seventh or ninth...I can never remember...'Black Beauty' ever made, which *was* incredible...and I'm not talking about the later 60s triple humbucker stuff) and never having owned one. Highly entertaining for me, but not of much use to anyone else.
Having played and judged by your own criteria, you are missing nothing. Well, unless you want to get into the merits of transcendental idealism as opposed to objective realism or something like that, which is what the whole freaking anti-Ovation thing boils down to in my opinion. The 'salad bowl' crowd are overrun with Hegelian's, I tell ya! "Ovations suck! Taylor's are better! Here, buy a Martin!!"
;)
(edit for speling) |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | During the 70's, O's were played by almost all the rock performers. At the time they were only real acoustic/electric. The 80's saw Tak's and soon Taylor's, become popular. O's started producing shallow bowls, and allienated tradionalists, and newer guitar players. Many on this board swear by the deep bowl. The development of the LX guitar, is a milestone, and unplugged it sounds just as good or better than fancy Taylors (I know I have a fancy Taylor and the LX Legend, sounds just a good, and easier to finger). The reasons for lack of respect are: Many players are stuck on all wood guitars; They haven't played deep bowls or LX O's: They may have picked up a Celeberty, and judged all O's as such.
Tommy
Tommy |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I think it it's a combination of at least two things.
As Brian T said: "when Ovation started flooding the market with cheap... Korean models that appear identical to the high end US made stuff. Many... base their narrow opinion on strumming a cheap plywood top model.
Then - the Marketing end overshot the Flagship and nearly swamped the boat. Today it seems that the Flag is back on the mast and directs the ship. Is that clear enough?
And - In my late teens I was turned off from hearing some of the louder/treblyer Shallow bodies played by Inflated egos (lead guitarists) with little concern for anything but their sound. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | To me the acceptence problem amongst tradionalists is the bowl. Keep everything else the same and use a wooden box body and the damn thing would be much more accepted and sell better. Even if it sounded worse! Think about it - people spend tons of money on wooden box guitars that in our opinion are "inferior" to ovations. Why is that? Because they hate the fucking plastic bowl! I would suggest that Ovation should just build a wooden "fake box" with the bowl still built inside of it. That way you have the best of both worlds. All the benefits of the bowl parabolic sound reflecting non-braced blah blah, BUT from the outside it is a wooden box. That sucker would sell like hotcakes!
You'll never win any arguement based on sound. I don't mean to say Ovations don't sound better than a lot of other guitars. What I mean is that we hear what we want to and sometimes we hear with our eyes. A guitar with a plastic bowl isn't going to sound good to most traditionalists no matter how good it sounds. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | BrianT I think said it the best and I have some additions to that.
1. "Sound" is very subjective and to many folks that mid-range only, hollow "wood" tone to many people, especially the older bluegrass, early blues, and classical folks, is the "correct" sound. To me that's a guitar with limited range. This is a major hurdle to the tone folks.
2. I'd say most soundmen, and many studio engineers don't know what to do with an Ovation so when most people hear an Ovation, it's that thin plinky sound you get when you try to tweak an Ovation to sound like a wood guitar.
As someone else said, most of the folks who talk "tone" have never played or heard a high-end Ovation. The vast majority just say "it rolls off my leg" so I'm curious what that crowd is going to say now that the countour bowl is here. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | I was at one of the Detroit area Ovation dealers Thursday afternoon that also carries Martin, doing "guitar-tasting". I found that the 1771-LX they had, with OLD STRINGS, sounded similar to a Martin D-16RGT with NEW STRINGS. And it sounded BETTER than the D-35 they had with old strings. An Ovation that sounds like a Martin???? Those who know the history know why.
I agree, I think it is the plastic back. I've run into that several times...."Tupperware", "Plastic Guitar"...etc.
Maybe they should try a new line of fake wood finish bowls, kinda like the Martin X-series???? (which have a fake wood finish on Formica on the sides and back)
Roger |
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Location: Corvallis, OR | All of the above reponses are reasonable, but I suspect the issue is often simpler. ANY group tends to look down on the "other" group. Chevy drivers make jokes about Fords, (I wouldnt get out of an electric chair to sit in a Ford ),Steeler fans curse Packers, guitar players love a good joke that teases bano players, and examples are all around of racist thinking .
And our bias is easier for us to accept if we can find some label or obvious handle to focus our attention. (such as "that round back")
But my point is, *our tendency to do this is not based on logic.*
Except for the Ford Chevy issue :-) |
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Location: Tampa, FL | I'd like to thank respondents. You all bring up some great points. My experience started in the early 70's with a Balladeer (I think) but then gaps to last year so I missed some of these things. Back then I ran into a few all wood bigots but they were predominantly classical guitarists. I think the advent of the Internet (thanks Al G.) has allowed 4fingers lots of little enclaves of "Us" model to proliferate.
I'd like to think BrianT's right about regaining respect, I know that people that have seen me play seem to like the sound and the appearance.
Standing O's got a point, a fellow I have performed with is a very accomplished classical guitarist. When I asked his opinion of my Adamas he immediately started off on the sliding off my lap mantra. So then I let him try my 2005 Collectors. The kid could make the instrument sing, and, when done, handed me back the guitar with a "Now that's what I'm talking about look." Felt kinda good after that.
Mr. O's observation about the subjectivity of tone points up one of my personal issues. I like the way my O's sound (even the much maligned 6591) but it does sound different. Then again, I guarantee my classical buddy's Taylor sounds different when I play it. I know my 2005 was suddenly fixed in his hands.
Again I'd like to thank all that responded. This has been helpful.
A little OT:
MWoody, your soldering license is hereby revoked. Please turn in your soldering iron at your earliest opportunity. While it may be appropriate for chewing gum... "The bigger the gob, the better the job" is not your typical solderers mantra. :D |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
BrianT I think said it the best and I have some additions to that.
1. "Sound" is very subjective and to many folks that mid-range only, hollow "wood" tone to many people, especially the older bluegrass, early blues, and classical folks, is the "correct" sound. To me that's a guitar with limited range. This is a major hurdle to the tone folks.
2. I'd say most soundmen, and many studio engineers don't know what to do with an Ovation so when most people hear an Ovation, it's that thin plinky sound you get when you try to tweak an Ovation to sound like a wood guitar.
As someone else said, most of the folks who talk "tone" have never played or heard a high-end Ovation. The vast majority just say "it rolls off my leg" so I'm curious what that crowd is going to say now that the countour bowl is here. Miles, I know this is your board and all, but I must respectfully disagree with your first point. Sound is not subjective. We like to think its subjective because most people "know what they like". But, having spent a number of years working with both speaker engineers and classical music sound engineers, I have learned sound is most definitely not subjective.
Good sound comes from an object which reproduces as wide a spectrum of the source sound waves as possible. The best audio speakers reproduce the widest spectrum. This is readily accepted in the audio industry. During the sixties, seventies and eighties, most recording studios used JBL's as their reference monitors. This was not because these speakers reproduced the widest spectrum, but, originally, these speakers were the best available small speakers which could be placed on ear level bookshelves inside studios. So, they became the standard, not necessarily the best sounding, speakers. You knew that if you walked into any studio, and they used JBL's, you could count on a consistent sound. Your mind compensated for the deficiencies your ears picked up with these speakers. But, since you always heard the recorded through these JBL's, everything was right with the world, at least from one studio to the next.
I liken a wooden box guitar to these JBL monitors. It is what everyone expects to hear. Not necessarily the widest spectrum, but a consistent spectrum.
Clearly, you can hear more reflected off the Ovation parabolic round back than you can reflected around a box guitar. And, serious classically trained musicians pretty much always prefer an Ovation to a box guitar. My take is that people who say they don't like the sound of an Ovation, are simple small minded musicians who are content to hear guitars as they've always heard them rather than as they could possibly hear them. |
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| When I first met our current guitarist there were a few of us jamming at a mutual friends house. We were quickly introduced from across the room, and the fact that I was primarily a bass player was mentioned. I did not have my acoustic bass then and you need to know, these guy's are real good and they all have great guitars. Out of the group of 6 Arron was, hands down, the best in the room. I had my 1587 with me and after a few songs Arron walked right over to me and asked to play my Adamas. He has an acoustic dou and another Band project and he teaches guitar, this is how how makes a living. He looked my guitar all over noticing for the first time the carving work and then he played it! He thought because I was working primarily on bass that was the reason I had one of those great looking but crappy sounding cheap plastic guitars! He had never seen an actual Adamas Guitar only the Celeb's or Applause. And he is at the level that his $3,000 Taylor is the sound quality he is after. He was very impressed and asked me more information and after we started a sound comparison he and I both aggreed the sounds these guitars have are so close in direct competition that considering the looks of the Adamas he aggreed he would have gone the Ovation route instead of Taylor if he could have found one of these to try first!
Ovation does not have enough of an Adamas Market inventory out there to capture as much of the higer end market that is there. And the fact that Arron saw mine and thought it was an import Ovation this is proof most people bass their opinions of Ovation upon the only guitars that are usually available at the guitar shops. And although I think some of the Celebs are pretty well made and sound dam good they are not and should not be Ovations only example that is hanging on the guitar shops walls! Everyone who is an Ovation dealer should be required to have at least one or two of the high end American Made Ovations available.
This is why I think Ovation has a stigma of cheaper lower quality sound.
When you have something that even after thiry years is still considered radical; it has to not only match the traditional product that it is competing with but it needs to literally bury it for it to become acceptable! Ovation was doing this in the early years but somehow it petered out through the late 80's & 90's?
Today Ovation has this huge import thing going and It's reputation and apperance is taking on a slightly cheaper motif. Only the guy's who know these guitars like us have the opinions like you here in this forum! Personally I would say that Ovations need/greed to compete for the cheaper guitar market has overshadowed the great reputation they were buiding up in those early years! And they will from now on always have a small core of musicians who like their stuff but a public that has no knowledge of Ovations true genius. Now that's just my humble opinion.
And I am often wrong.
Randy |
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Location: Orlando, FL | When I was ready to buy my first decent guitar in 1974 I knew I wanted an Ovation. I had been seeing Pete Townsend Ovation ads and thought they must be cool. (hey I was 16). Ovations seemed like unique guitars and I wanted something different than everybody else. I got a 1112-4 and loved it! I still do. My best friend at the time had a Martin. In our group of friends and jammin buddies, everybody pretty much acknowledged that he and I had the best acoustic guitars. Of course, I always liked mine better. Back then I never really ran into anybody who didn't like my Ovation.
I got out of playing around 1990, but when my wife coaxed me back into playing last year, I started looking at Ovations right away. I could not find one I liked, I was very disappointed. Now the Ovations at the Sam Ash and GC here are typically very low end. I started to get the idea that Ovation had just gone downhill. I finally found an expensive Guitar Shop out on Disney Property that had Elites and Adamas models. Oh man, finally I got GAS.
The Ovations at Sam Ash and GC were severely outclassed by lots of other guitars in stock. Big price difference on many of them, but I wouldn't have given the Ovations a second look if I didn't already own one I loved. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Think about this:
If Ovation charged more (say $3000) for their higher end guitars, I bet they would sell better. People don't want to buy inexpensive top-of-the-line guitars. Get rid of the bowl and double the price and they would have more respect and more sales. How's that for marketing. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | If the stores only carry the low end Ovations, they don't compare well with the more expensive guitars in stock. If the chain stores here had carried any nice Ovations, I would have been thrilled. But anyone trying what they have at any given time would probably want a better guitar. |
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Location: Maryland, USA | I don't have a guitar center, unfortunately, I've never played an Ovation Acoustic, but want to play one incredibily badly.
I went to a guitar store called Hot Licks (very big, not sure if it's a chain). And found they had no Ovations, I played a D-18 and loved it. I then found a local Martin dealer in my area who had the D-18 for $1300 (HOt Licks had it for $1850). I'd like an Ovation (acoustic) eventually, but I don't know if I could ever like something more than my D-18...it just sounds perfect on Pink Floyd's "Wish you were Here" acoustic solos.. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | If you do a lot of live playing you may in time find that an A/E Ovation would be very good to use. But I must say that I agree with you, for acoustic only it'll be hard to top the sound of your D18. FD14 and some Adamas models will come close. I've got a D18VS and as hard as I try (and as much as I buy) I just can't top it for pure out acoustic sound. Dave |
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Location: Maryland, USA | the D-18V (Vintage Series) is what I played at the Hot Licks...I said it wrong, that was priced at around $2500.
The guitar that was $1850 was the D-28.
From there I went to the local Martin Dealer, and found a D-18 and an HD-28V.
I played them both for around 30-60 minutes, and decided I liked the sound of the D-18 more (even though it was less expensive). It was vibrant, it was booming, it was what I sought for in my acoustic guitar :) |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I have a 1995 Martin D18GE - golden era, sounds and plays very nice. People talk about how loud the Martins are but to me, the Adamas are much louder. Not sure if I think it sounds better either....different but not necessarily better. |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Standingovation:
If Ovation charged more (say $3000) for their higher end guitars, I bet they would sell better. That's pretty much the statement that almost got Moody tarred and feathered at the Q&A. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yes, it's contraversial to say the least. The issue is that within reason, a lot of people (maybe the majority) when they buy a top of the line guitar want others to know they paid top of the line money for it. A guitar that sounds like $3k should cost $3k. I know that's anti-logical and as an average consumer I want the best deal I can get. But remember, the 0.01% of the population that buys top of the line guitars is not your average consumer. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | I still firmly believe that if more people had the opportunity to play Elite and Adamas models they would have a better opinion of Ovation and would probably at least consider one over a more expensive wood box. If someone sees a really beautiful $1700 guitar they will probably check it after they play their $3500 dream guitar. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Dave, Although only 0.01% buy top of the line guitars, a majority of guitarists want to check 'em out, just to see what the hype is all about and to dream a little. Then they tell their friends to go check out that beautiful Martin (or whatever) down at XX music. I think (and I could be wrong) in a music store most people will check out many guitars, usually the ones that look pretty and the ones with the big price tags. |
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| Standing O see your point, but with that said this answers back to the fact that Ovation is loosing ground in it's "respect" department. At least from musicians. I am sure Ovation is doing quite well in the cash sales department.
Randy |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Designzilla:
a majority of guitarists want to check 'em out, just to see what the hype is all about and to dream a little. Yup. I agree. Somehow the same store that does not carry high end Ovations does seem to carry high end Martin and Taylor. Therefor the natural conclusion is that M & T are the "best" guitars. Plus it helps that almost every professional musician of any note is playing one.
Originally posted by northcountry:
with that said this answers back to the fact that Ovation is loosing ground in it's "respect" department. I'm not sure if they are losing or gaining ground, but the fact is that they are far, far behind. Don't let the enthusiam of us fans here in the club fool you, in the grand scheme of guitardom, we are playing tupperware. Btw, I' think Kaman is the largest musical instrument distributor in the country, so why mess with success.
That being said - I do in fact love all my Ovation and Adamas guitars and have the upmost respect for those who make and sell them. I just wish we could somehow help to change the perception.
Dave |
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Location: SE Michigan | I think the most effective (and maybe the most difficult) thing that Ovation needs to do to get respectibility is to get their guitars in the hands of some top artists.
In the 70's it was Cat Stevens, Heart, Geln Campbell, John Lennon, etc...Look at how dominating Ovations were in the 70's.
Can you imagine what it would do for Ovation sales if you saw Eric Clapton, Sheryl Crow, John Mayer, Chris Martin, Billie Joe Armstrong, etc.,etc., playing Ovations on their videos and at their shows? GC would not be able to keep enough of them on the walls. I dont know how you get celebs to play your guitars though, other than maybe make the very best guitars that you can. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | It was those Pete Townsend Ads in Guitar Player Magazine that first got me interested in Ovations back in the 70's... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Found it:
"MWoody, your soldering license is hereby revoked. Please turn in your soldering iron at your earliest opportunity. While it may be appropriate for chewing gum... "The bigger the gob, the better the job" is not your typical solderers mantra."
We have talked. I am bad. I will not make microwave Popcorn in a small office or solder unless extreme need arises. |
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Location: Massachusetts | I posted over on the AGF about my positive impression of the Collectors because of the contoured bowl. Most over there just immediately dissed Ovations end of story.
A few were open minded and said..it's your flavor of ice cream enjoy so to speak.
Others surprisingly said they USED to be loyal to Ovation but not anymore because they prefer the all wood tone.
Personally, I love the sound of my Gibson Songwriter Deluxe but it doesn't play as easy as the Collectors. When recording them I can get the Ovation to sound fairly close to the Gibson tone by adding more bass and mids in the eq.
Up until the contoured bowl(even I got pissed at the roundback design..hence my Gibson) people didn't like the bowl cause it doesn't rest flat on the belly and it slides off the leg and sounds plasticy.
To my ears the contoured bowl ends all that and I sincerly hope wood snobs get to play and try one.
Sadly, we aren't going to see any contoured bowls for a long time. I don't see CL in the stores anymore at all anywhere and that is the first place they are being put.
And finally, yep go to GC and the Adamas and Collectors are at roof level and made in Korea crap is right in front. People walk right past.
Maybe Ovation should tell GC to put the high end stuff, even a few, in the rooms with the Martins and Taylors. |
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Location: south east Michigan | ***Maybe Ovation should tell GC to put the high end stuff, even a few, in the rooms with the Martins and Taylors***
Yeah...that will happen when Al starts playing Grateful Dead songs.
I put my 2 cent in on that thread. I thought long & hard before I did. I tried to be reasonable, fair, and balanced. You can guess how far that got me. |
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Location: Tampa, FL | Just as in a train wreck, I had to go look...
Actually, I was a little surprised at how even tempered most responses were. There were the brainless responses of course, but at a lower rate of appearance than I would expect in the population at large. I thought the response was fairer than I expected. Although, I wonder if Mr KamanSucksAss is a counter-troll attack in repsonse to CorvairFan initiating a veritable troll first-strike into the pristine all-woodlands. |
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Location: NJ | DoubtIt.
Those guys just tend to keep their NarrowMinds to themselves . . . . |
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| I think the answer is, at least in part, the Emperor's New Suit. People have got far more money these days and they can be convinced that they really need the extra bling of more exotic/ more tightly grained/ more inlay/ more whatever. They do not buy for value like us old codgers do - the best example is PRS guitars. The base models are as beautifully built and sound identical to the $10,000 plus Brazilian/Paua/Artist models. All the bling does NOTHING for the guitar, yet people buy them in the 1000s. Look at how many Custom Shop guitars Gibson and Fender sell every year. Yet I would bet that not one guitar player in 10,000 could hear the difference between a production model and a custom shop model.
Ovation's problem in this context is that they don't have the ridiculously overpriced in their range of guitars. You know that your 2005 collectors/U681/AdamasI sound and play WAY better than the money they cost, but increasingly these days people don't believe their ears they believe the marketing hype put out by guitar companies.
Seems to me that Ovation need to be a little tougher with dealers and insist that they stock a minimum range if they want to do business - and they need to REALLY differentiate the USA guitars from the imports. That way the reason for paying a premium becomes clearer. It's been mentioned on several threads lately - Ovation's marketing doesn't do the guitars any favours at all. |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | Yea, the Celebs do detract from the Usa O's, especially when they're on the same wall. All those custom acoustics with all those fancy woods, are really eye candy. 90% of the sound of an acoustic guitar is determined by the top wood. The mid-bowl, is much easier to hold and finger, than those clunkly wood boxes. The final point is that Ovations, are made for guitar players, and not guitar makers. |
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Just a little respect...