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Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | Yesterday I was tuning my Custom Elite when I noticed that if tuned at the nut, playing at the 12th fret resulted in a moderatly sharp note.
All strings were sharp at fret 12, some more so than others. Is there something I can do? |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I'd like to know too, because my 1777LX is a little sharp at the 12th as well. |
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December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | Is the action high and is the neck tension set right. The bridge position is set at a median distance to try to work with all string gages. Better sharp than flat.
how do you get all the way up there anyway? |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I bend my elbow. Roughly the same technique Cliff uses to get tequila to his mouth. |
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December 2004
Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | The only thing I've done is remove one of the shims; otherwise, just as it came from the factory. I have Elixir mediums on there now, but want to go back to lights. Action is about right, a little high. Haven't checked the neck tension. Give me a few minutes to change the strings and check the neck. |
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July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Almost all my Os are a touch sharp at the 12th fret, whether I've removed a shim or not. I was suspicioning that it was not that out-of-the-ordinary.
Roger |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | My 6778LX is spot-on along the entire neck. I was surprised to discover the 1777LX wasn't. I spend a fair amount of time in the higher frets when I'm not playing solo. |
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December 2004
Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | OK, I changed the strings back to Adamas 1818E lights. A little better, but still minimally sharp at fret 12 on all strings. Not bad.
Checking the neck tension...
Ok, so it is a little bowed. Pushing down on the first and thirteenth fret, strings 1-4 touch (just barely) fret 5. So I need to tighten the truss rod a little, right????
I've only had this guitar <6 months. Should the rod need adjustment so soon? |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | It probably needed it all along, Tommy. I have mediums on my Legend, but I had lights on it before and it was sharp at the 12th. I probably need to adjust mine too. Do we tighten or loosen to un-bow it? I can never remember. Besides, I'm at work. |
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December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | Originally posted by ttenn:
OK, I changed the strings back to Adamas 1818E lights. A little better, but still minimally sharp at fret 12 on all strings. Not bad.
Checking the neck tension...
Ok, so it is a little bowed. Pushing down on the first and thirteenth fret, strings 1-4 touch (just barely) fret 5. So I need to tighten the truss rod a little, right????
I've only had this guitar <6 months. Should the rod need adjustment so soon? It sounds to me like there's not enough relief in the neck and the truss rod should be loosened. |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Generally speaking, once the action is set by adjusting the bridge, the nut and fret height, the truss rod will need an adjustment seasonally. The guitar is made of wood and it expands and contracts with the seasons. The months between adjustments is irrelevant. I imagine it's getting cooler in texas now, so that will have some effect. Probably in October when it gets less humid, you'll see some changes too. Then when winter sets in, it'll change, and then the next adjustment probably won't be until late spring. |
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Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | Originally posted by an4340:
Generally speaking, once the action is set by adjusting the bridge, the nut and fret height, the truss rod will need an adjustment seasonally. The guitar is made of wood and it expands and contracts with the seasons. The months between adjustments is irrelevant. I imagine it's getting cooler in texas now, so that will have some effect. Probably in October when it gets less humid, you'll see some changes too. Then when winter sets in, it'll change, and then the next adjustment probably won't be until late spring. Well, it is 100 today. Tomorrow is predicted to be 103. "Cooler in Texas" comes in February. :cool:
I'll adjust the neck and see what I've got. |
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December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | tten:
I checked the Ovation owner's manual and your neck is a bit bowed. The fix is to LOOSEN the truss rod. Start with about 1/4 turn. |
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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Well, I've been in Dallas during August, October and February. I'll just say that in August it's hot like Africa. In October it was just warm, in the 80s and in February it's cool. It could be just the times I went there. But a guitar will respond to temperature and humidity changes. In Brooklyn it seems like I have to make adjustments three times a year, once about two weeks after I turn the heat on in late October (I also throw in a humidifier into the case), then about two weeks after the heat is turned off, and then during the summer when it's hot and humid and I don't need a humidier. Reminds to make sure my hygrometer works. |
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Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | I should have thought of this sooner.
The LX's end up with a taller distance to the top of the fret because there is no need to remove 1/4 of the fret material when evening the fretboard. The difference is the extra stretch of the string when you press it into that difference.
Try placing the harmonic or "barely" pressing down on the string.
You'd think they might have to use a lower fret wire to compensate (for something they no longer compensate for). |
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March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Our weather here is sure boring. It got windy Friday night and down into the 50s, but was back to 81 yesterday. Rained a little Friday night for the first time in 90 days. May need a humidifier though. Anybody got any extra water? |
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Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Not in Virginia... |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Now, does the new neck system on the LX's work the same as the Kbar??? |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | This is annoying. I've loosened (counter-clockwise) the truss rod at least 1/2 turn - no change. I know I'm going the right way to correct for bow, because the strings are all going flat.
If I tune the open string, it's fine up to the seventh fret. When I get to the eighth fret, it starts going sharp, getting worse as I go up the neck. Just for giggles, I tuned it at the 12th fret. Same thing, when I got down to the seventh fret they started going flat.
Any ideas? |
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September 2003
Posts: 782
Location: Waurika OK | Waskel,
If you have too much bow in the neck, tighten the truss rod, that will make the neck straighter and the fingerboard flatter, it will make the strings go sharp.
I use a 24 inch straigh edge on top of the frets between the 3rd and 4th strings and then use feeler gauges to get the neck about .012 of bow between the stright edge and the 7,8,9th fret.
If the action is high it is possible to get good intonation using the harmonic at the 12th fret, but when you press the string down onto the 12th fret it will be sharp.
Did I make that clear as mud? |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by xnoel:
Did I make that clear as mud? Absolutely, Noah. :eek:
Yes, the action is a little higher than my Elite, but I've got it down to one shim. I can try taking it out, but I'm getting awfully close to the bridge. I figured if the intonation was sharp above the 7th, then it needed more bow to correct it. I've loosened it, but it's not having any effect.
Perhaps this is why it looks like it used to have an FRG sticker in the bowl. |
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Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | Set the truss rod. Took out the final shim to lower the action per the manual. Still a little sharp when fretted at 12. However, in tune when harmonics at 12, but that should since you are just halving the wavelength of the string. The change in intonation may be from the string tension change when fretting, but you HAVE to do that. Seems like that would be built in.
Actually, it's not much of a change, but enough to notice if you are looking for it. I always heard USA O's were "spot on" with intonation.
Still love the Custom Elite tho. |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Tommy, that is what's frustrating me. My Elite IS spot-on. All the way up to the itty-bitty frets at the top, perfect. Yet I can't seem to adjust the truss so it doesn't go sharp above the 7th. Tomorrow I'll pull the strings off and take the last shim out, I guess, and see what that does. |
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June 2004
Posts: 580
Location: NW NJ | Waskel:
I just spent several hours over the last week adjusting the LX style truss rod on the 1778T. The truss rod was way too tight when I got it and there was zero relief at the 5th fret when you fretted 1 and 12. I was getting buzzing whe I really dug into it during tunes like "Days of Elijah", etc. It took more partial turns of the truss rod nut that I thought it should to get a little bow into the neck so I could get to the factory spec relief at the 5th fret.
I started out maikng little adjustments like the manual suggests, and nothing seemed to be happening. I wondered if the truss rod adjustment was just there to make me feel better rather than actually doing something. Then I said to myself, "Self, lets crank that nut a few good turns counter clockwise and see if anything happens at all. After about a half a turn, which was relatively effortless, the adjustment started to require some "work" on my part to get it to turn. THEN it started letting the neck bow a little. To be true, three 1/2 turns was too much, but 1.5 - 2 after the nut got hard to turn was about right for mine. Tuning is good, no buzzing and I could remove a couple (of the 4) shims to get the action nice and low. It is sweet and in tune now. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Ok, I got it. Robbie, I didn't try what you did, only because I could already see the bow - and my action was getting too high, and I only had 1 very thin shim left in there - mine only came with 2 of the medium shims. Bear in mind, this is a used LX, plus there is evidence of an FRG sticker being removed.
So anyway, I looked at the situation - action too high, neck obviously bowed, intonation sucks at higher frets - and started loosening the truss rod.
When I got to where there was barely a noticable bow, I stopped and retuned - perfect all the way to the 15th. I rarely go above that on acoustic.
But looking back at the original symptoms, loosening the rod did not seem to be the logical solution. Therefore I've concluded that the mechanics of guitars are not limited by physical laws.
Or, alternatively, this was an FRG because my truss rod is in backwards.
Thank you all for your suggestions and experience. |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | On some guitars, you have to give them a day for the wood to bend into shape with a truss rod adjustment. If you are playing right after you twist the rod, the next day the tuning won't be true. Take it easy. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Ok, thanks! |
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September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | This thread is kinda spooky.
I've never used a humidifer. Michigan goes from 99 and humid to -12 and frigid. I do not have air conditioning. I keep my guitars sitting out on a stand. The only thing I've ever had to do as take some material off the thinline saddle. After 34 years, when I ran out of saddle material to remove, it was off to the Mothership for a neck re-set.
But perhaps I ramble.
My experience has alway been that Ovations are able to handle a reasonable amount of enviromental adversity with no problems. An intonation problem is pretty tangable, but is it possible your overthinking the other things?
Just askin'.
In all my time here I don't remember a thead that went in the direction this one did. |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | By spooky do you mean scary? I guess it should also be noted that a guitar is a tempered instrument. |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | "tempered"???? as in stressed???? |
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March 2005
Posts: 417
Location: Cicero, NY | Oh oh...I think I remember where this went last time... |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I don't know what's so spooky about it - I just got done watching "The Sixth Sense" - now that's spooky.
This guitar has had a very slight intonation problem in the upper frets since it arrived a week ago. My Elite has never had an intonation problem. I tried to solve it in what I thought was a logical manner. I was mistaken, apparently, as the problem is now gone, solved by doing the exact opposite of what logic told me to do. |
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November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | ...."as the problem is now gone, solved by doing the exact opposite of what logic told me to do".....
...didn't Castanza do that in a Seinfeld episode |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | "Every decision I have ever made in my entire life, has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I wanted to be. Every instinct I have, in every aspect of life, is it something to wear, something to eat, it’s all been wrong" - George Costanza |
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Intonation off?