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Location: Phoenix AZ | Please help me here. If you own a 1537, go open up the back and tell me what you see. I looked inside mine and I see a nice close grained spruce soundboard (it's even varnished on my older one). But looking towards the upper bout area, there is another layer of wood sandwiched to the soundboard. It's not spruce and it looks rotated 90 degrees to the spruce. It's very thin and tapered at the lower edge. So the bridge end of the guitar looks like solid spruce, but the epaulet end is a sandwich (plywood?). I thought I was seeing things, so I popped open the other 1537 I currently have and low and behold it's exactly the same. Are they all like this? Does everyone already know this except me? Are all Elite style guitars like this? Dave
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Mine has the same, completely flush with the underside of the spruce. I had noticed this before but figured it was well known. |
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Location: SoCal | looks to me like a solid top with unique horizontal bracing...might have reduced a number of finish cracks, etc., if O had a couple of thin horizontal strips between the bridge and bottom (under or over the vertical bracing).
interesting - "varnished on my older one"...now that you probably have new strings on it - any difference between the two? |
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Location: SoCal | flush? in other words, a two piece backing - one upper and one lower? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | By flush, I mean... mine looks like Dave's pictures but, in his photos there is a bit of an illusion which makes it look like there is a difference in thickness in the spruce and the 90 degree piece under the epaulet, when in fact there is no variation in thickness
....The underside of the lower bout is the same piece of wood as the top side, but this is not the case in the upper bout where the underside has the tranverse grain. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jeff, I disagree. I run my hand over the "joint" and you can feel how the upper bout gently tapers to a thicker overall thickness (sounds odd, but you know what I mean). I've nevr seen anything like this. May it's what gives the 1537 the "mojo". If this is limited to only the 1537, I can understand how it would be a bitch to produce and maybe why it only lived a few years. I also notice that my '83 is varnished on the inside of the soundboard and the '84 is not. But they sound identical. Dave |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Can you feel the seperation between the woods at the joint?
Does it look as tho they rabbieted the spruce and placed on the plywood and then thickness sanded the two flush or just taper sanded the plywood? |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Dave answered my question while I was typing it....He's magic! ;) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Dave,
I wasn't being clear, In your photos it looks like there is a lip where the pieces are joined, when, in fact (at least on mine), the joint is smooth and uniform thickness.
It is hard to tell whether the upper bout gradually thickens as it approaches the neck, because of the epualets, but it may well. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | There is no lip. They taper sanded the ply. Jeff, I'm almost sure it thinkens. As I run my hand along the soundboard it's nice and smooth until the "joint". You don't feel the joint but you do feel like your now going up a small ramp. Overall this is VERY nicely done. I just never noticed it before. Dave |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Confirmed. Using a modified cailper I was able to measure about 3/32 difference in the thickness of the soundboard. From the joint to the neck block. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Maybe (I'm guessing) they used the plywood for renforcement up near where they drilled all those weakening holes and leaving it nice and thin down by the bridge so the top could vibriate better!
The reason 1537's sound so good may be that the spruce top is much thinner than other multi-hole models but so thin that the area around the holes would snap and break easy.
I guess I should pull the cover on my Elites and take a look.......I'll be bakkk |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Hey guys, I just pulled the covers off the backs of my '93 collector and my standard Elite and found that the '93 (which btw sound fantastic!) has the same piece of plywood as the 1537's but that the standard Elite is one piece!
I'll posts pics as soon as I can downsize my camera from 1200 x 1600 |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | The Std Elite (bottom photo) has small pieces of plywood bracing the sound holes (not even tapered)
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Anyone have an Elite, Custom Elite or Elite LX they can look in and see if All multi-holes(except the economic Std. Elites) are constructed like the 1537's?
I don't mean to highjack this thread or step on Dave's discovery but now I"m curious too! |
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Location: Upper Left USA | 1778LX - Just a little bridge plate between the X brace. About 2" long. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Don't worry about hijacking the thread. Heck, this is kind of discussion I enjoy. Dave |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | :D Actually I'm trying to catch Cliff in # of posts.........and get way from Hal Jordan :eek: |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Thanks Woody, I'd forgot that LX's are X braced and not Quintad. |
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Location: NYC | I have a Std. Elite LX, and while I haven't looked in from the back, I noticed right after I bought it that there seemed to be an additional piece of wood by sticking a finger in from the top through the soundholes and kind of poking around. I figured that it was reinforcement for the top in the upper bout because it is routed out in order for the epaulets to be inlaid flush. The loss of thickness (and strength) is compensated for by the additional wood underneath. |
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Location: Rocky River, Ohio | guys,
ovation has advertised this in their catalogs in the late 80's, the one with 1758 12 string elite on the back cover..
on the page where the elites are showcased, it says REINFORCED WITH BURCH VENEER IN THE UPPER BOUT FOR OUTSTANDING HIGHS..
check it out..
ernie |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Ernie nails it! Great work. So much for multi-ply tops not sounding any good, eh? Dave |
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Location: Tennessee | Same birch that's used in the Adamas sandwich? That's a pretty good pedigree.
My 2000 with a ply top sounds damn fine too. I had the 1537 out yesterday and yeah, I'd say it sets a standard for ply top guitars. |
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Location: Rocky River, Ohio | thanks dave...
the ironic thing is that a couple of years later, when ovation introduced the new pearl white paint jobs, they had a one page ad for elites in all the guitar mags at the time...
if you read the ad, it talks all about the advantages of solid tops and the special braces on the elite that run parallel to the grain, and that laminate tops and braces that run across the grain make for a lower quality sound...
in a way it was false advertising as the elite had a veneer on the soundboard that indeed ran across the grain..check that one out...i think jerome probably has that ad in his scanned collection on his great website...
ernie |
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Location: Keller, TX | OK, my 2005 Custom Elite LX (which has the scalloped bracing) DOES have the accessory bracing around the holes. Similar to the bottom picture in Trboy's post above.
GREAT :mad:
Now we gotta put up with plastic bowls AND plywood tops! :eek: :D |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Al,
Does your Big "wood top Adamas" have this same transverse birch reinforcement? |
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Location: Tampa, FL | I had a Standard Elite that I noticed had what looked to be an extra lamination in and around the soundholes. I kind of thought it was for extra strength. There are some areas with very little structure in those multihole tops. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Dave,
I just looked inside my Applause and it looks like all the same grain pattern! Maybe we should swap since those non-continuous plywood models suck now? You can pick which one to send, just put on new strings if you would please.
Your Pal,
MWoody |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I was thinking the same thing. Instead of putting on new strings, I'll just slip a $10 in the case and you can buy your own. Send me your address. The guitar is ready to ship.
On the other 1537 I am trying a little experiment. I figured if the extra ply is good for the upper bout, then why not try it on the lower bout as well. I didn't have any decent wood around so I ripped the top off an old shiny bowl balladeer. I cut it to fit and am now in the process of gluing it to the underside of the 1537 top. I had to cut it into smaller pieces to fit through the hatch door. It's all clamped and the glue is now drying. I'll let you know how it turns out. Oh, while I was at it inside the guitar with power tools and all that ... I drilled out the bridge and made it into a pinned type. No more need for the string tubes.
Dave |
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Location: closely held secret | Congratulations, Dave. You've just built your first Fender acoustic guitar. That wasn't so hard, was it? |
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Location: boulder | mine has the reinforcing birch veneer ;) as well.
But how many 1537's (or other models) have black (wood?) curfling, holding the bowl to the top? I think most bowls have a white glaze/epoxy attaching the top to the bowl. curiouser and curiouser.
peace mike |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | My top/bowl attachment looks like a white plastic ring. You can see where excess glue has oozed out in a few spots. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | You guys are all depressing me. I just took my 1537 and 87 Collectors and tossed them in the trash. I don't want a freakin' ply top! I'm gonna go buy a Taylor..... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Paul, don't do that. Your '87 is probably OK. It's only the 1537's that are plywood crap. Dave |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Sausages, Laws and 1537's - three things you don't want to know how their made! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | After lusting for a 1537 and finally getting one, now I find out it's plywood. I really don't care why it sounds so good. My Matrix sounds good, too and I think it's plywood. I thought my 99 Collector's sounded good and it's plywood. Actually, I thought the Celebrity Deluxe 247 that I traded for the 99 sounded better, but it was plywood.
As far as I can tell, my Balladeer is solid spruce and my Classic is solid cedar. I can't open the back of those to see for sure, so I won't even attempt to burst my bubble. |
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Location: Keller, TX | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I can't open the back of those to see for sure, so I won't even attempt to burst my bubble. Got a tiny mirror and a flashlight? |
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Location: The Shop | We used to do the eppie backers that way,now we use the two cut to size backers that dont go under the bracing. The reason the backer is tapered on the older styles, was to make the bracing sit flat on the top.Hope that answers it. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Well, there you go. But what was the purpose of the backer? Stability around the soundholes or or enhanced high end sound (according to the marketing spew). Dave |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Certainly different layers of wood will affect how a guitar sounds, affecting stability and/or timbre; luthiers do it all the time:Just look at a flame top les paul or a carvin.
I have to tell you one thing though, when you guys are taking pictures of the insides of your guitars the first thing that came to mind was a guitar colonoscopy. |
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Location: SoCal | I have to tell you one thing though, when you guys are taking pictures of the insides of your guitars the first thing that came to mind was a guitar colonoscopy. Now I was thinking more concise than that but along the exact same lines.... My thought was "anal"..... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yeah, you should have seen the look on my wifes face when I walked into the room with a mirror and flashlight. Dave |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | ....and a miner's helmet. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Yes, ttenn, I have a mirror and a flashlight, but I'm not going to use them. As long as they sound good to me, I'm happy. They didn't come up with the saying, "ignorance is bliss" for nothing. I'm also finding out that "fat, dumb and happy" has a lot of truth to it, ever since I took a serious run at the fat part.
I was trying to compete with moody and Dave's sarcasm. I should know better. |
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Location: Waurika OK | This thread made me wonder, so I took the access cover off the back of my Elite T and it does have a reinforcement under the holes.
I wondered what it would sound like playing with the cover off, tried it and it was thin and tinny sounding, wouldn't think it would make that much difference. |
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Location: SoCal | Ya know, after reading all this, even tho' it's raining, I think I'll go out to the trash cans and see if I can retreive my 1537 and 87 C... maybe they're worth holding onto after all.....
Mark, you're an attorney. Sarcasm should come naturally. It's Witko that scares the hell outta me... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Paul,
Good news is it's Marine Grade Ply. Should hold up just fine in the rain.
....Hell, you could float to Baja on it, drift on to the beach and strum to the locals for margarita money. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Too late, I just picked up you trash for you.
In all serious like - I was just pointing out a curiousity about what I saw inside the 1537. Whatever the heck Ovation did with the birch sure as hell worked because I think we all agree this is perhaps the second best sounding wood top guitar that Ovation has ever sold. Those of us lucky enough to have one should be thanking our stars. Instruments like this don't come around very often.
Dave |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | and you can float to Baja on em too! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Paul, I found out by reading a trial transcript that sarcasm doesn't play well in print. Since you need to use a certain tone of voice to say one thing and have everyone know you mean the opposite, the appellate courts don't appreciate sarcasm when they read the transcript. The internet and emails have the same problem.
Dave is a true master, however. I'm still looking for the string tubes. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Mark, I have string tubes available. Email me if you want some. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | Mark, I knew an attorney once, who, you'd listen to and he'd sound brillant. But if you read the transcript of what he just said, you'd have no earthly idea of what he was saying. It's true and it was the damnedest thing.
Dave, you're right about the 1537's. One of the best guitars Ovation ever built. Regardless of how they did it.
By the way, I just had the back of my 87 Collectors open and it was the exact same way, with the birch (or whatever) in back of the upper bout. |
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Location: North Texas | When you read "solid top", maybe they're describing how sturdy it is. Like Moody said, who cares how they build it. When the sound is rich we benefit. After all, these guitars were designed by engineers in the first place, and we all know how they are. Plywood and plastic have always worked well together. I've got a wonderful chair made that way, but it sounds awful. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I don't think you should worry about it being "plywood". I don't know how many layers it is, but it doesn't matter. Think in terms of layering veneer for strength. Luthiers actually go out of their way to mix different types of wood to come up with a uniquely voiced intstrument: like the one here. |
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Location: SoCal | Is a solid top any less a solid top because it has braces glued to it? That birch bracing is no different...
What is different is a plywood top, that's formed from a wood mash under pressure to form a board..... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Dave, I don't need string tubes. As I said in that thread we wasted on string tubes, I'm going to try catheters next time. Since my wife is a nurse, I have access to a large supply. I just haven't got up the nerve to ask her yet. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | And the answer is:
It's a solid top. The veneer(adamas core material, birch) was 1 layer run cross grain to keep the top from breaking between the holes, either in production or in the field. It does improve the highs slightly but that is mostly marketing rhetoric ( I know most of you spotted that immediately).
Most guitars of this style have this reinforcement. |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | So after the discussion is all done....
1) I suppose the sudden surge in value will now decline after this topic and
2) It is probably too late, but I will gladly pay shipping and $5 for your trouble to anyone not wanting to pay the garbage fee for your servicable 1537. I do this with the same sincerity that you all offered to buy my 1537 for about six months ago (when I didn't know what I had) :D |
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Location: SoCal | Well, you can buy mine, but the top is rather soggy (it rained) and smells of doggy doo from being in the trash where I threw it. I think I'll just put it next to the radiator and see if it dries out..... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Paul,
Just send it too me. We're approaching our rainy season so it can acclimate gradually. |
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Location: NYC | I was just looking at the 2005 LX catalog, and there are pictures of the inside of the Elite soundboard. The intent was to show the scalloped bracing, but the reinforcement around the soundholes can be clearly seen. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Sorry it took so long for an answer. |
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1537 Has Plywood Top ???