|
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Has anyone completely removed the clear (laquer?) finish from an acoustic? I'd like to redo my Matrix top if the process won't damage it. The rest of the guitar is in great shape as is. Comments will be appreciated. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Good question, Bucky. I've been wondering the same thing, for my Balladeer. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | need to know what the finish actually is on a matrix. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | Has been, can be done but to be done right it should be a factory job.
They have used several poly-epoxy type finishes. These do not work like a lacquer and any later layers or build ups will be visible.
When CT does a top they pull the bridge and neck, sand it down and reshoot.
You can sand it down with out neck removal but it will leave some tattle tales behind. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | What kind of finish to you want on the top, gloss, semi-gloss or satin? Is it a burst pattern? Why do you want to change it? Need details.
If it's changing a clear satin to a gloss that's easy. Anything else is harder. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | It's a polyesther finish and a bitch to get off. Leave it and buy the guitar you want. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Same for early 80's Balladeers? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6194
Location: Phoenix AZ | They should have made the old Ovation tops dual sided. That way when the first side got dinged, lacquer cracked, etc. you could just peel the top off the tupperware, flip it over and stick it back on. Thereby doubling the effective cosmetic life of your investment. Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | To augment Dave's post i would just like to add the following sounds:
"Phwoo-up"
"Phwapp-p-p-p" |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Woodster,
How many times did you actually open and close the tupperware container to work out the phonetics?? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | And whattaya gonna tell the wife when she asks what happened to all of the pudding?? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | Like Cliff says, it's a gift (curse). |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | If the final coat is a polyester, what would be the right chemical to soften it up? Acetone, MEK, aircraft stripper? The questions really concern damaging the top/tone of the instrument. I'm not a pro painter, but I do believe it's possible to improve the appearance of my 31 dollar, antique, deep bowl, Matrix. I already have all the guitars I want. This is a project to restore an old one. Like fixing up an old car. You don't go out and buy a new one, you redo the old, back to original. That's the fun of it. There may be some intrepid members who've already done some finish fixin', so, chime in. The repair job does not have to be "easy". Cheers! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | I have been using Aircraft Stripper and 50 grit to strip the solid bodies. Very stubborn finish to remove. Melts in your mind, and on your hands. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Buck,
What's the problem with the finish?
If no problem, then why do it?
If there is a problem, there may be a way to fix it without too much work. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Do the solid bods have a poly, or a laquer? I know it's a messy op. Those fumes really set you free. A fan will be used. That Matrix has an elevated binding, unlike a regular top. I'll try some chemicals (on the guitar) and see if I can come up with a slick method. There has to be a way to do the job, it's just a matter of uncovering it. Pun. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Buck,
Get the stripper and the sander and go for it. Your project will take longer than you think.
If you told us what the problem was there may be an easier fix.
Good luck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2177
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Buck, Is your Matrix top plywood? If so you'll probably want to just leave it as is and get a shiney new guitar (GAS attack :eek: ) and keep your Matrix all original!! The plywood top is extremelly thin so if you have to strip & sand to much.....you might wind up sanding thru the layers and maybe even end up with a guitar that looks like Willie's "Trigger" |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | I was thinking the same thing. I thought all Matrix had plywood tops. I think my manual even puts a positive spin on that. If you sand through the Spruce veneer, you're hosed. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2177
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Yep! ;) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Yes it's laminated. There are discolored cracks behind the bridge and a humongous crack below the hole. I don't feel any cracks inside so I assume the cracks are in the clear coat, and the top is ok. It's a cosmetics thing. Since the rosette is gone, I tried some solvents there. Wow, the finish is hard as a rock. Even lacquer thinner had no effect, and that stuff usually cuts anything. That veneer on the top is thin, looks to be less than .015". Maybe half of that.
I did cut the saddle way down and got the action lowered dramatically. It plays like a high end guitar now. I'm still debating what to do with the top. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | WoodGrain ContactPaper. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Sears Green Goblin Latex, best with a roller |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | I have some left over from Tony's Viper redo!
It has a few Oreo Cookie crumbs in it. Matter of fact, just throw some more crumbs in and make it look like an elite T or the old "polane" paint jobs!
Textured roller required. :rolleyes: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | best to use the ones for stucco... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | I played mine last night and it still sounds great. The $245 purchase price in 1977 equates to $786.75 today. Not a cheap guitar and we were really poor then. It doesn't sound or play as good as my others, but plays at least as easily as the Collector's and Balladeer and has better bass than either of them.
I'd play it like it is, Buck. The finish must be hard as a rock or mine wouldn't look as good as it does after 28 years. Put a new rosette on it and leave the cracks for character. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Buck,
If you do a search, you'll find that some people here have used stew mac glue to stablize the cracks. You don't want to do anything else unless you send it to the factory. It's not worth it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | I don't think stucco is a good idea, however, Cliffs' suggestion has crossed my mind. Never heard of stew mac glue, I'll check it out. Right now, Marks' comment about slapping on a rosette and leave it be seems reasonable. Good news is, after putting fresh strings on the cut down saddle, the old guitar sounds very, very good. The headstock had a serious gouge at the top. I filed it down, sanded it, used a mild abrasive compound, and buffed it back to sheen. You can't even tell it was doctored. I love plastic. Dave, did you find that rosette? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | You got a great sounding guitar. Even if you hadn't got it for a song. Pun intended. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Yea Mark, nobody wanted it, and I really did not think it was an Ovation either. Figured it was a cheepo asian knockoff. It does sound better than expected, and it's loud. I'm wondering why no one ever set it up right. The saddle was sticking way out of the bridge. I took off close to 1/4" off the bottom so you can imagine how high the strings were. I removed the single shim before working the saddle, sanded until it ended up with a slight buzz. Then I put the shim back in and lost the buzz. I figure The action is as low as it can be, which was my aim. After a couple of fixes, other than the cracks, I can't find a thing wrong with it. Looking at the neck, you'd think it was not played. That's not suprising considering the action was so high. Where is the serial # located on these guitars? I can't find one and I'm curious how old it is. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Thanks an4340, for the glue link. They have everything for fixing guitars. Fair pricing too. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | the finish is polyester, first coat and every coat. Solid bodies and acoustics. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Any idea why it cracks so badly? Many Ovations, wonderful instruments, have this problem. I'd rather have less gloss and greater durability. The finish is, perhaps, too brittle because of it's extreme hardness. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13984
Location: Upper Left USA | They have improved over the years but early on was thicker. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | Originally posted by MWoody:
To augment Dave's post i would just like to add the following sounds:
"Phwoo-up"
"Phwapp-p-p-p" Does it also say "Parkay"? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | The binding does resemble tupperware. Is that what keeps the tone so fresh? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | it was a brittle finish. Later they put more urethane into it so it was a 70 poly/30 urethane mix. What they use now is sooooo much better. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | Buck,
I've never had the saddle out of mine, but it has a nice low action. Next time I change strings, I may pull it out just to see if there are any shims in there. At least I don't have to worry about screwing up the pickup, like I admitted in the other thread.
The serial number is inside at the base of the neck, just like all the others. If yours isn't in there, somebody must have taken it out.
I'm amazed mine has never cracked, especially since it has spent most of its life in a really dry climate. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | I've worked the saddle, and or bridge, on every acoustic guitar I've ever had. If your action is good already it might have been setup right at the factory. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Sometimes a guitar is good to go, but more often than not it needs some tweaking. I think that sometimes a guitar gets sold because it won't play right, and the owner does not know how to fix it, or is not even aware that it can be made to play better. Most guitars can be improved with minimum effort, and a little know how. The Matrix I bought was barely playable. No doubt that's why it was sold for peanuts. It took about two hours to correct it.
Since I found this forum, I've purchased three more Ovations. Where does it end? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | I'm way ahead of you. 6 more Ovations and one Kaman "Monterey". And I'd have a lot more if my wife would quit spending money on things like new carpet and college tuition. I do have to admit to being a bit extravagant, but there are lots worse examples on this board. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3604
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | If you just want to refill the finish cracks, pour in the Superglue, and buff them level. That original finish is hard, and thick. I refurbished an old "O" someone had scratched the name of their band into, on the right lower bout. I sanded off the befouling calligraphy, and still had finish left!
There is some two-part epoxy paint you can get from Sherwin-Williams; surf over to their website and search under floor finishes. That's as close as I've found to the original factory finish. You still will have lots of sanding and buffing to do, though. As for saving the raised edge on the Matrix- good luck. I can't see how you could do a thorough stripping operation, without losing the binding. I converted an old Matrix into a resonator-style, but replaced the top to do it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3604
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Here's a note Tony Calman sent me last year, about finish repairs, ostensibly at The MotherShip:
"They use a water-based glue to fill, gradually building it up, then sand smooth (maybe building it up and sanding several times), then buffing. Finish is pretty thick so a little sanding should not be a problem...not sure ? 1200, 2400 ? Course for a real crack, I would assume that a little CyA (super glueA) would work...don't worry, CyA solvent will take super glue off of the finish easily and not even affect the gloss."
Once again, good luck! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Thanks for the tips. Is there any way to clean the dirt out of the cracks? The finish is not very dark and I suppose grime has been accumulating for the last twenty years, or more. The cracks have darkened from dirt and have become blackish lines. I'm kind of afraid of sealing in the dirt at this stage. I hate to think about taking the top off, and since the binding is in good shape I might try to get the dirt out, and then seal with glue, and buff. All these suggestions, in this thread, are beneficial to myself and others. These ideas are helping me determine my course of action, and others with similar finish problems are gaining valuable information. I thank all the contributors for their knowledge regarding finishes and remedies. The questions and answers found herein are important to the owners of vintage instruments. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Unfortunatly the top cracks in the matrix are in the veneer, not just the clear. They are not through the ply, so the top is functional. At this point, paint is probably the only option because sanding won't help. I super glued the cracks. For now, I'll just close my eyes and play it. Everything is tight and fully operational. The guitar sounds like a balladeer, a good one. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3604
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | As Jack Nicholson's character in "As Good As It Gets" queried, "What if this IS as good as it gets?". The song is just as sweet to the blind man, isn't it? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 400
Location: North Texas | Sure is. Well, I'm not blind, so I can't be absolutely sure, but my guess is yes. The old guitar sounds better than it looks, no doubt about it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3604
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | I'm learning to accept wrinkles, too. o^o |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | Chris, I just sent you an email, but it kicked back saying you were out of the office. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3604
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Paul, you must have used my office e-mail. I was on vacation the past week. I'm assuming the intended message (USMC/ACLU) got through on my residence email, though.
Thanks! |
|
| |
Refinishing