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Location: SoCal | I was in the local GC today and as usual, the USA Ovations are high on the wall (they had a good selection of LX's -- you just couldn't play them without help getting them down) and the cheap ones were down low. This time I tracked down the store manager and asked how come I could play $3k Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, etc, but the only Ovations I could play were cheap imports? Hell, they've had an LX 12 string up high in corner for about 4 months. Nobody's going to buy it if they don't know about it and can't play it.
He told me that this was a problem to him as well, and that the corporate office dictated that the guitars were up on the walls in areas by price breaks. Cheaper guitars down low and more expensive ones up high. That doesn't explain the high end acoustic room. I told him that quite honestly, I've got Ovations at home that would knock the socks off of most of what what in the high end room (1537, 87 Collectors, Big Blue). He suggested that I call the Guitar Center corporate office. So I thought I'd pass along the number. If enough of us call......
818/735-8800
Let's make a few phone calls and complain. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | What explains the high end acoustic room is that everybody knows that the classy Martins, Taylors and Gibsons deserve their own room!!! (finger down throat gagging)
Seriously, it's obvious that if you can't play a guitar, you won't buy it, and that is probably why the high-end room exists. That logic worked on me when our local GC accidentally put their first 2005 Collectors in with the Martins/Taylors/Gibsons. If I couldn't have played it, I wouldn't have bought it.
They put the second 2005 Collectors up high....and it's still there, five months later......
Roger |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Interesting response. My local GC has all the Ovation LX's mounted head high and chest high when you walk into the acoustic room. They have a wall full of them with the cheaper models on floor stands. Across the room is the "high end" room which has the Martins, Taylors, and the new offering in the sub $1000 range, "The Pinnacle". |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Think of the high end room as high end in price. If Ovations cost $1500. - $3000. they would be in that room. I personally think Ovation would sell more of their upper end guitars if they charged more for them. If the Custom Legend cost $2500. it would get the credit it deserves. As dumb as this sounds, to the vast majority of buyers an Ovation can not sound as good as a Martin because it doesn't cost as much. Dave |
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| Just increadible ain't it? Logic goes right out the door when it comes to Ovations. We have three local shops that sell Ovations Two have dealership status one is a great little mom & Pop shop that always seems to have some interesting used Ovations Ric's and Gibsons! Not quite sure how they do this. Anyway the two "dealers" have a similiar setup as GC they have an acoustic room no Ovations in there! THey hang outside in the same area as all the used electric & acoustic guitars. The other store has Ovations but they do not have a seperate section like all the Martin,s & Taylor's The Ovations including the one Newer model Adamas they have hang in a line with the low end traditional and even the cheaper Fenders and etc.
My take on this ....IF anyone is listening at the Mothership???????????????? Send your salesmen or perhaps Corporate reps out to as many of your dealers as you can and shake the proverbial monkey tree a bit! I'll bet Taylor and Martin make sure these dealers do not put their guitars in poor sales areas. In fact I'd bet these reps have gone as far as to suggest to these dealers to set the Ovations off to the side and make them look like second rate equipment.
That's just my take on it,
My real problem is all the idiots who sell on ebay that only accept Paypal only as a payment option????? How stupid is this??????????????
Money is Money, what is the hurry? Why would anyone limit those who may want to bid by not accepting all normal forms of payment. Yes I have a Paypal Account but I do not keep much of a ballance in there. Just baffeled by this phenomenon!
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Randy,
If you've dealt with a lot of the idiot buyers on ebay, you know it's nice to get the dough right away. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Randy, I'm not trying to second guess your opinion wrt PayPal. But I don't follow your logic. You HAVE a PayPal account. But you don't keep much balance in it, that's fine. But if you win an auction and pay by money order, you have to go to the bank/store to buy the money order, right? So why is it any harder to instead just transfer that money into your PayPal account and complete the purchase using PayPal? Just curious, not trying to question your motives. Dave |
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Location: Tennessee | Do as Moody says and give them a call, or ...
email them. I had some issues and sent of a couple of nastygrams to the senior execs and I got nearly instantaneous response. These guys were on it and gave me a lot more confidence in Guitar Center as an organization. In fact, I bought some more stock as a result and it has tripled in 5 years.
So try these: Marty Albertson - CEO marty@guitarcenter.com
Maxx Galster - EVP of Stores mgalster@guitarcenter.com
Peter Schuelzky - SVP of Regional Sales pschuelzky@guitarcenter.com
State your opinion clearly, succinctly and try not to inject emotions into it. These guys will respond and get on it. They may not give you the anser you want, but they will listen and do the right thing. Chances are, they have no idea this is even an issue. It's our chance to make it one. Customer opinions mean far more to them than anything Ovation's marketing and sales team can ever express. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Standingovation:
to the vast majority of buyers an Ovation can not sound as good as a Martin because it doesn't cost as much. Dave Yup. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Ours are almost all on one wall. There is no high end acoustic room. They are mixed around. The only problem lately is that they have so many cheap guitars on stands, you can't get to the ones on the wall.
I just figured that even thought the policy is to let you pick up and play whatever you want, they wanted you to ask for help to reach the really expensive ones.
Played a nice old Balladeer today. Great sound. |
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| Well Again I don't keep much of a balance in there I actually got robbed once! Yep Paypal made good on it but it took about three months to get my $350 back! No matter what anyone thinks about modern technology, firewalls and security protection; when you money is gone and they make you prove you had it, and did not take it yourself you'll have the same low opinion of it as I do in a hurry.
My point is nothing to do with easier or not I think we all know it's easier to use electronic funds transfers. My problem lies in the fact that if your selling a product why in gods name would you limit who can buy it?? I mean if your a guitar shop and a guy comes in to pay for a guitar and all he has is a credit card....well would'nt it be stupid not to be set up to take credit cards? and if you are set up for it would'nt it be even dumber to not accept them?
I mean really, there are still many many people who do not have a paypal account. If you found an Ovation on ebay and the only payment they will accept is bidpay... would you question the seller about taking another form of payment (hell money is money right?) or would you sign right up and get a bidpay account. I feel the seller has a foolish policy myself.
Now if your insinuating that all people who use money orders are shifty then your mistaken. And yeah I have had to wait for payment many times but only very rarely have they not shown up in the end. The other problem is it takes three business day's to transfer money into the account. By then the seller could have his money order cashed.
Just my thoughts bitter as they may be. Makes for conversation I guess.
Randy |
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Location: south east Michigan | I bet the GC executives would beg to differ with the opinion that Ovations are not well displayed.
This display is just outside of the acoustic room but it has it's own "steel wall" backdrop, informational plaques, and is placed in a high traffic area. I bet that GC is very happy with the under $1000 nitch that Ovation covers for them. And I bet Kaman is happy with the volume going to GC and MF.
As much as we want to find an AD-II or an Adamas on the wall, GC is just not interested in high end Ovations. The local store manager told me as much. Think about it. Do they want to have an AD-II that sells for $1500 next to an 800 series Taylor that that will sell for more than twice as much? If the folks who would never think about buying a guitar that is not in the "high end" room were given the chance to do a fair comparsion the people in Hartford would have even more to handle.
I had an idea to set up and man an "Ovation Fan Club" table for a day at our local GC just to see what responce it would get. But on a second thought it would be kind of "out there" a step and a half to far.
Now if you address a real problem....I got my holiday season Elderly catalog. Ovation has only one half of one page. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | But Brad, how exactly is someone supposed to get to (what appears to be) the Elite LX and the Legend 12 LX hanging on the wall ??? Those are probably the nicest two guitars in the photo, yet are totally out of reach. Luckily the Celeb 6 string is front and center, not to mention the double neck. Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | I know we are not happy with it. But they are.
Want to spend an a few hours at an Ovation Fan Club display table with me???
"I'd love to change to world...but I don't know what to to." |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Brad, that looks very similar to our store, except there are 2 rows of Ibanez on the floor. They have too many guitars. I'll have to tell them that so they give me a couple. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Sorry Northcountry, I know it pisses you off but I am one of those "Paypal Only" Ebay sellers. You may be honest and straight up, but there are so many scams, and variations on scams, and twists on the variations. Paypal when used with a Visa card = protection. It's like an Ebay condem.
As far as Guitar Center and their display practices go, they would sell and display horse turds if they could make money at it. Do you really think they care whether they sell a Taylor or Squire or a Celebrity or a Legend? They are retail whores, all they want is cash flow.
The only thing we can do at the OFC is talk to store sales people and encourage people to try out the higher end O's. The rest is up to the mother ship, and I am beginning to wonder how badly they (the mother ship) wants to sell high end O's. |
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Location: North Texas | Too many Os. I don't think I'd wade through that pile. They all kinda look the same, anyway. In a way, I think the display cheapens the product, visually. Guitars R Us store. |
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| No problem I'll get over it I often just do not bid on those auctions. It ain't like I take the time to email every seller about it. It generally just seems funny to me that a seller would limit the amount of bidders on an auction??? The whole point is to make money or it would not be for sale? Right? If you have two or three people who can't or won't bid because you don't want to wait for a money order then your simply loosing money. Now that's bad business sense. As the seller your protected already? I don't see the issue if you sell something the buyer has to send you the money beofore you mail the item. So how can you get scammed? I've sold hundered of items some for over $10,000 on ebay? Money orders cash just fine for me?
Anyway, no matter, it's just an observation that leaves me confused but then again many things often do?????
Man hard to get to or not those Ovation sure look good in a group like that! Impressive to say the least.
Randy |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | BTW, last weekend I ate at Chumley's in NYC. It's a former speakeasy and pretty nice place. The first thing you see when you enter is a sign that says "Cash Only - NO Credit Cards". Didn't seem to hurt their business at all. I don't have a problem with "PayPal Only" on eBay and 99.9% of time prefer it. I think it's the safest method of making and receiving payments. Other will disagree. The potential buying market on ebay is so huge that I doubt PayPal Only auctions turn away much business at all. Dave |
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Location: SE Michigan | Northcountry, the reasons I dont want money Orders are:
(1) I have to wait for the buyer to get a MO, then wait for snail mail to deliver it. All this time my item is off the market and the buyer may back out, and I am left waiting.
(2) Money orders can bounce, I have read numerous accounts of sellers getting screwed, that even a week after deposit a money order has a problem and bounces.
(3) When I do get a money order, I have to go out of my way to go deposit the damn thing into my bank. With Paypal I can move funds around right from my laptop.
(4) People who dont have charge cards and Paypal accounts usually represent the bottom of the economic barrel (bad credit scores, etc.,). Not to be a snob, but I only want to sell to people who will pay promptly and hassle-free.
A fast easy sale and prompt payment along with the buyer and seller protection is well worth the small percentage paypal charges. |
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Location: SoCal | At my local Guitar Center (La Mesa, CA), they have US Ovations in the acoustic room, courteous and helpful sales staff, etc. They will take anything down from the wall for me. Sure, in 2004, they had the 30th Anniv CL way up high - didn't take long before it was in a very prominent position (eye level, eventually sold five.) The 30th CL bumped a couple of nice older Martins. Sure, the "high end" room has Martin, Taylor, and a couple of Gibson but you get to it through the acoustic room. And, I notice a reluctance of many to spend any time in the "high end" room. US Ovations have the majority of space in the acoustic room.
They have several small "quiet" rooms where you can take the guitar into.
Sure, have to walk through an obstacle course of amps, guitars on stands, and kids playing Fenders, Epiphones, Ibanez, Celebs, etc. to get to the acoustic and "high end" room.
When Ovation has come out with a display (i.e., the LX), placed it in a prominent position near the acoustic room. At least several of the sales staff go to NAMM each year and have checked out the Ovation offerings.
So, don't have much to criticize...especially when I haven't bought a guitar from them. Yet, as Al knows, I have bought a number of O's & A's from him.
GC is a business...majority of guitars are in the $300-$600 range. Yet, they give us a fair amount of quality space to display guitars in the mid to upper range. Don't blame the retailer for placing the US Ovations to Martins in a more controlled area (acoustic & high end). None of us would want to buy a guitar that was scratched by 12-18 year olds that spent their Saturday afternoon at a guitar store.
Only critique of this store is that there are no Adamas...a U681T or a reissue would have been a good measure against the Martin/Taylor grouping. Yet, with reissues limited to 100, may not have been practical for GC to bother.
Again, although I would like to see "our" guitars take a more prominent position, I haven't bought from them. Wonder how many OFC'ers would... |
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Location: Le Havre (France) | Hello everybody !
It is fun to read you complaining about the difficulty to access to an Ovation hung too high on the wall or behind other stuffs !
Why is it funny ?
Because in France, when you enter a GC with the thinking of "today I'll test a LX / let's try the new Collector / how damn could sound the Adamas anniversary models", well the best attitude is : keep out ! Stay in the street !
Because you'll be very disappointed !!
There is no Ovation (I don't even mention Adamas :D ) in french GC !
When you find one, it's low price enter models...
There's nearly only one shop where you can see Ovation and Adamas guitars : it is in Paris.
For example, I never played the 2005 Collector ! Because never seen !
Last WE, I was very happy because I had the chance to play on two Adamas Anniversary (1581-5 and U681T-5).
Finding an Adamas in a GC is like finding a pearl in an oister !!!
:D
EDIT : by the way, I agree with Tony. I bought all my guitars out of GC's. My post was just to try to show you how it is on the other side of Atlantic ;) |
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| Had to edit that one! Enough is Enough!
Brian you might want to edit your comment about those who are not as economically uppercrusted enough to have a paypal account! Not Cool Dude. I'll leave this one at that. whistle, whistle, whistle,..........
So anyway how bout those Ovations in the store?????????
Randy |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I just bought 2 guitars from GC after being a regular visitor since the first of the year. Both were low end guitars for 2 beginners. They don't really try to sell the O's here. I could probably sell more when I'm in there than they do. They don't tune them either. I tell them I'm going to start charging them to tune their Ovations.
Most of the salesman are kids who like the electric stuff. They also sell to a lot of kids and beginners, so they cater to their market. |
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Location: SE Michigan | I have an idea, from now on when any member of the OFC visits a Guitar Center, lets make it a point to ask to play one of the higher end Ovation models from up on the wall, then when the sales person leaves the area, put it in the high-end acoustic room! If we keep doing it maybe GC will just give up and leave them there!
And Northcountry, I dont know what I said that is offensive, you were the one all upset about Paypal-only. I am just telling you the truthful reasons why sellers do this. And it's not about being upper-crusty, it's about being responsible! Almost anyone can open a Paypal account. |
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Location: Las Vegas | Guys, I think primo positioning in musical instrument retailing is every bit as much bought and paid for as it is in everything from the grocery store to the drug store to Tower Records. Didn't use to be that way, but it is. Calling Guitar Center is a waste of time, it's Ovation that has to "claim" the primo space down lower from Guitar Center with whatever "means" they have at their disposal. You can rest assured that better positioning at Guitar Center and other retail outlets is definitely "available" for the right "discounts" and "deals".
Les |
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| Well Brian if you don't see your comment as rude or offensive then my friend it is you who are, how did you say it........"The Bottom of the barrel"
That comment speaks volumes to me about your character!
We have lots of people in here as members and many who visit here who do not have a paypal account! Nice for them to see what we Ovation elitests think of them! Well what you think anyway.
I have spent somewhere around $20,000 on guitars and almost all of them were paid for by money orders? Funny never thought those guitar dealers thought poorly of me when I sent them 5 or 6k at a time. But your last comment seems to elude to the fact that you speak for all those who sell on ebay. You don't speak for me and I have passed $100,000 in sales over 6 years or so never once! not once did I have trouble with a money order. I am sure I have more experience selling than you do. My marketplace is across the board. And I have held checks for people too, nothing wrong with that it is a service and part of the cost of doing business and what people do to be HUMAN to one another.
You want the fast easy payment! Not a nice world we will be living in when we all give up and want the fast easy way out.
One guy who sent me a check was a local senator. He happened to not have a paypal account. Stereotyping is something a bigot does!
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Tony, I've bought FOUR of my Os from my local Guitar Center:
2004 GCS-771-C Balladeer (cedar-top, Guitar Center only model)
2002 Collectors' (bought used)
2005 Collectors'
2005 1771LX Balladeer
Roger |
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Location: SE Michigan | Northcountry, or I guess I should call you Randy, I can see I touched a sore area with you, I have sore areas as well. I also feel an obligation to give good advice to the less-experienced viewers of this forum.
But that said, when you deal over the internet you don’t even have a face to look at. You cant judge someone by how they are dressed, or by the car they pulled up in, or by the companions who come in with them. On the Internet you only have a few numbers, and it's common knowledge that the Internet is loaded with scammers and non-paying low-life’s.
I used to get really mad when I was younger when I could not rent a car without a credit card. Now that I am older I understand that I was asking the rental car company to trust me with their $20,000 investment and they don't know me from Adam. Getting a credit card used to be a right of passage. I think I was 25 before I finally got one (and they screwed me on the rate at that!). Now even the Poodles from the other thread can get a credit card provided they have a real address.
I have worked many years to obtain a stellar credit rating. I pay my bills promptly and protect my reputation. And I reap the benefits of my diligence in better mortgage rates and better credit card deals. If some upstart teenager wants to bid on my $1000 + Ebay guitar auction, he damn well better have a Paypal account and hopefully a Visa card as well. If he doesn’t I hope he treated his dad nicely and can borrow his Dad’s Paypal and Visa card (I did sell a guitar to a 16 year old this way once).
Dealing in the electronic marketplace requires electronic credentials, and Paypal is just such a credential. Any Bozo can walk into a post office and buy a money order, it tells me nothing about the person. You are free to do as you please but my auctions will continue to be "Paypal Only". I have had people ask me to take Money Orders, even after I clearly posted PAYPAL ONLY. My thinking is that if this person does not have the means or the initiative to set up a Paypal account, I probably don’t want to do business with them. This is my right, and there is nothing elitist about it.
PS - never leave funds in a Paypal account when they are not needed....bad things can happen as you found out. Also you can instantly fund Paypal with your Visa card, which is how I buy things. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | OK, you two. I'll mediate for a large fee.
Our GC doesn't have a high end room, so maybe I'll just go in and take the good ones that are way up there and move them down to eye level or below. I actually haven't noticed any pattern at ours. The Celebrity Deluxe that I bought my daughter was proudly displayed at the front of the room. Unfortunately it wasn't close to being in tune. When I next came in it was among all the other brands.
I've already agreed to retire and go to work for GC at minimum wage. I'll only be 3 times the average age of the rest of the employees. I bet that doesn't fit their marketing strategy. |
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| Well you go ahead and look down your nose at the people who you have prejudged.
I'll give them a chance to do the right thing.
Considering, In my vast exprience so far, I have only had a couple of real nut jobs to deal with through ebay and both of them were sellers who did not send the item! I think most of those without a paypal account are people just like the rest of us.
I do see your point about the electronics market and I'll give you your experience selling what you sell. I just will never understand why you would limit your payment options when you say it's because people who have to buy a money order are lesser people? I'll bet you have not had a bad money order you just think you will. I look at Paypal as a necessary evil. You look at it as a status symbol, yet any idiot can get one? Logic is weak.
Anyway back to my earlier comments I may be wrong I often am.
No need to mediate just took me a while to unberstand why this seller only accepts paypal. I see now it is not a business decision it is a character flaw.
Your welcome to call me Randy or anything else you want by the way I alwasys type my name in my messages. Thanks for new perspective on auctions like these.
Randy |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | The seller (or retailer) always has the right to limit their payment options. Remember, the freaking OLYMPICS don't even take American Express !!! As a buyer I ONLY look for auctions that take PayPal. I'm not going to hastle with going to the post office and all that crap. If you don't take PayPal, you don't get my bid. Simple as that. That's a personal choice that I make, and others can choose differently. Dave |
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| Rather than move the guitars to the high end room, just go in and ask to play the ones up high on the wall. If someone does that everyday I guarantee they will move the guitars down low. |
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Location: NJ | I basically refuse to deal with PayPal because their Customer Service is atrocious.
After spending an entire afternoon contesting charges on my PayPal account that I DID NOT MAKE with assorted inept fuckwits on their staff, I ended up cutting my losses and paying them (about $125), cancelling my credit card, and refusing to EVER give them my business again.
Stupid people annoy the piss outta' me.
When a company can find it acceptable to have a minimum-wage ignoramus (mis)handling their customers, I vehemently refuse to give them any further consideration. |
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| Dave this is great ! Never said I had a problem with this. If you don't accept Postal Money Orders. (and by the way we all still go to the PO all the time) My problem is if you don't accept them because you think people who have to use them are dirty and bottom of the barrel.
Paypal has, and is, going to take one more human aspect of life away from the humans who live it!
Do you charge your customers the paypal fee's too? Must be nice. Priority mail, free boxes, laptop in bed, hey if you could get one of those peole who have no money (you know the ones who don't have a paypal account) I'll bet you could get those dirty people to pack you boxes for you for a little food!
NO business expense at all!
Your right I'll admit it!
Paypal is the way! I see it now. No more going to the bank and all that hassle that is a real hardship, and for Brian no more dealing with those lesser people. You guy's have set me straight YOU WIN!
Randy |
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Location: NJ | oh boy
I don't take pay pal. I almost signed up a couple of months ago but then a close friend had 3 bad experiences in a row. Personally I don't need the aggravation.
I look at it from the other perspective randy. any subhuman with a 299 e machine cable to their trailer can get a pay pal account. Me as a legitimate business who paid to have credit card service set up is now frowned upon because I don't take pay pal. So do I lose some business??? probably.
That is why I had a secure server page set up so I can accept payment that way. This insures that those who want no personal contact what so ever can achieve that by clicking on my link and providing their information.
I struggle with the pay pal question all the time. |
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Location: NJ | oh boy
I don't take pay pal. I almost signed up a couple of months ago but then a close friend had 3 bad experiences in a row. Personally I don't need the aggravation.
I look at it from the other perspective randy. any subhuman with a 299 e machine cable to their trailer can get a pay pal account. Me as a legitimate business who paid to have credit card service set up is now frowned upon because I don't take pay pal. So do I lose some business??? probably.
That is why I had a secure server page set up so I can accept payment that way. This insures that those who want no personal contact what so ever can achieve that by clicking on my link and providing their information.
I struggle with the pay pal question all the time. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Randy, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Some people prefer human intervention (go to the PO buy a MO, lick the envelope, hand it to the nice lady behind the counter, etc. That's fine. I can say with absolute 100% certainty that I have not be inside a PO in a few years and don't miss it at all. I buy stamps at the grocery store check out. But all this is not the point. I've made almost 400 transactions on ebay and the overwelming majority have used PayPal. Check, my auctions and you will see that I state PayPal is PREFERRED. I will accept MO but I try to discourage it because it's a pain in the ass for me. And yes, I eat the PayPal fee. And on a $1500. guitar that's a pretty sizable fee (about $30.) but I just absorb that as the cost of doing business. I won't say I have never purchased using MO, but again it's a huge hastle for me and for the most part I don't even look at auctions that don't take PayPal unless it's really something special that I have no other option for. For me PayPal is like a "slush fund". Money comes in, money goes out. Buy one, sell one. As long as keep the buying and selling pretty much in balance it's all just internal transfer and almost doesn't seem like real money.
I totally respect that you don't like PayPal or prefer not to use it. And I certainly do not think anything less of you or others with similar attitudes. And that's perfectly fine if you resent sellers that insist on PayPal. But that's there right to do so. Personally I resent restaurants that insist I wear a shirt and shoes. But that's just me.
Peace, Dave
PS - We all have our opinions. I respect yours and only ask in return that you respect mine. I use PayPal, I love Republicans, I don't believe in God, and the best sounding acoustic guitars I have ever heard are not made by Ovation. There you have it. |
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Location: North Texas | I like to buy from Paypal people because there is a record of the transaction, and a chance to recover funds from a shifty seller. With a money order, which is like sending cash, if the seller does not send the item, the buyer is SOL. I can't fly up to Jersey because someone beats me out of forty bucks. I can't say that I like Paypal, but I use it for nearly all my Ebay transactions. If a seller won't accept that kind of payment, the item has to be something I really want, at a price I really like. Cheers, Buckaroo |
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Location: SE Michigan | Sorry folks, this is too much fun to leave alone. Another factor in favor of Paypal is the "confirmed shipping address". With this feature I have some degree of proof that I am shipping to the legitimate owner of the account, and that the account has not been hi-jacked. On more expensive auctions I insist on a confirmed Paypal address. This process requires that you have a bank account, then Paypal actually makes a small deposit to prove that you are the account owner. It's actually pretty smart.
So why not have a Paypal account? I guess if they pissed you off in some way (Cliff and Randy) that is your right. The other reasons are less appealing to me as a seller (and as buyer as well):
(1) You don’t have a bank account.
(2) You have been blacklisted due to prior misconduct.
(3) You are a lying cheating smelly scammer
(4) You don’t have an email address or a residential address
(5) You are too lazy to bother setting up an account.
(6) You are a passionate political protester vehemently opposed to Paypal's oppression of the masses.
And all of these reasons (except that Paypal pissed you off) make you a person I don’t want to do business with over the Internet. Maybe someday you’ll get your life together and start moving up from the bottom of the barrel. Get a job, get a haircut, save your money, open a bank account, pay your bills on time, find a nice girl, soon your life will be better and then you can bid on my guitar.
Look, Paypal is Ebay's tool to make sure (as much as is reasonably possible) that people don’t get screwed. If you want to play on Ebay you should have a Paypal account. Do you go to Canada and bitch at them if they don’t take U.S. Money? Ebay is just a little side thing I do. If I could accept charge cards directly I would, but so far the best thing going for me is Paypal.
One final thing, buying over the internet with a money order (or check) is even more foolish. When you put your MO in an envelope and drop it in a mailbox, what assurance do you have that you will ever see the item or get your money back? To me this is incredibly stupid. |
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| I know I got a little crazy in here and I appologize for contributing to messing up this thread. I was taken by surprize by the bottom of the econimic barrel quote! That is unfair and borders on bigotry. I am surprised that it was not simply corrected instead it was defended.
Anyway Thanks so much for accepting my money through a bank check or money orders Al.
I would not own a few very, very nice Ovations and Hammer guitars now if you did not.
Paypal is just supposed to be a tool for people to increase their sales and to do business quickly (when needed). It is not supposed to be the banking system we all live by. Nor is it supposed to be a guide for judging the economic status of others!
But Like I said at least three times now "I may be wrong I often am"
Peace Love Dope
Randy |
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Location: Las Vegas | Originally posted by cliff:
When a company can find it acceptable to have a minimum-wage ignoramus (mis)handling their customers, I vehemently refuse to give them any further consideration. And not just ANY minimum-wage ignoramus, but most likely a very nice Indian in India named "Elvis" or "Heather" making WAY below US minimum wage.
(Really happened!)
Les |
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Location: NJ | the fact that pay pal and e bay is a monopoly disturbs me also.
when I was contemplating getting pay pal a good friend e mailed me. they take/took pay pal. they sold 4 items to 4 independent buyers all with confirmed addresses etc. Each person claimed they did not get the item. each person got a refund, my friend was left with proof of delivery but with no $$$$.
let me make this analogy. You go to a restaurant, eat a meal some 19 year old bim with her hooters half hanging out gives you the check and you hand her your credit card.
I sell something on e bay and I am a legitimate business yet you tell me you don't want to give me your credit card number over the phone.
I can't figure this one out.
A part of the equation is that when e bay was in its infancy and I was selling on it, the fact that it was a small community of computer owners and internet users made it rather elitist and safer. Now with cheap computers and connections, it lends itself to scams and riff off artists. It really makes it difficult for legitimate vendors to do business.
believe me I have been ripped off by buyers AND sellers!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Location: NJ | ". . get a haircut . ."
. . now I'M offended!!!
:D |
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Location: SE Michigan | Al, I nearly had one bad Ebay sale where the guy paid, I shipped, the FedEx tracking number said delivered, and the guy says he never received the package. Luckily later FedEx found the package. Now when I ship I require signature verification of delivery.
And I have no problems giving a legitimate business (such as yours), my charge card info. I really don’t have a problem giving my charge card to the big-boobed babe at Hooters (as long as she has washed her hands). With a charge card I am not libel if someone pulls a scam. Worst case I fight with the charge card company a bit and close the account.
As far as Ebay and Paypal being a monopoly; hey, it's their business! There are other on-line auction sites and other payment-proxy services. No one is forcing anyone to use Ebay or Paypal. Ooops, except for me, that’s right, if you bid on my Ebay auctions you must use Paypal. But hey, you could just buy your guitar from Al! |
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Location: SoCal | Unfortunately, I will almost always give a 19 year old bin w/ her hooters hanging out, my credit card.... |
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Location: Las Vegas | My take? I laugh at Paypal-only sellers, then I take my hard-earned "bottom of the barrel" money elsewhere. I've spent well over $150,000 on musical gear and furniture off eBay in the past seven years, every bit of it paid for by USPS money orders. If a seller can't cash a USPS money order when they're at the post office fulfilling orders, or deposit it in a trip to the bank, or mail it there if they're too lazy to get off their ass, that's their problem.
And a USPS money order is BETTER protection for the buyer than Paypal, that's for sure. I've had three "lost" (or stolen) money orders replaced over that time. The stories on the web of buyers being screwed by Paypal are legion.
Limiting oneself to the instant gratification of electronic fund transfer is not only elitist, it's just plain bad business. Anyone who can afford to limit their audience, deserves (and gets) a vastly limited audience.
And as credit card rates get higher, and more and more folks get overextended, and more and more options (bankruptcy) are erased by legislation bought and paid for by credit card companies, you paypal-only sellers can watch your customers further dwindle down to a tiny percentage of the market.
But by all means, cater to the rich; that's the ticket to the top, baby!
Les
P.S. I've found that most paypal-only sellers will actually take a money order if you contact them via e-mail and have a stellar eBay record. I've bought about five items this way; only one seller actually completely refused. You have to realize that eBay provides all sort of "incentives" that almost border on coercion for sellers to promote and go "all Pay-pal." |
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| Thanks you know I have and I will continue to buy from Al Thanks.
Paypal and Ebay will monopolize everything if it continues! Then you see just how they dictate what fee's you will pay for their god like service!
Paypal; I will continue use it reluctantly. No problem with you Dave at all if it is "prefered". In fact this makes perfect logical sense! You ask your customers to use it but accept other payments as well. Thanks...by the way....
I think "Paypal Only" rules are the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and anyone who judjes me on the vehicle I drive or the banking system I use is ignorant! And a bit of an Asshole actually. HEy just calling it like I see's it. And I sure don't want to do business with them through my paypal account or otherwise!
I paid cash $9,600 for a brand new 4x4 ranger with all the toys last year and I drove in with my old work truck all rusted out with a beat up trailer, in tow, to the Polaris dealer.
Wonder if that fool was hoping I did not come in the door when he saw me. If he did.... He was wrong! Was he not? How Bout people who are Black Brian? do you have your preconcieved notions about how much they have to spend before they walk in the door? How bout people in wheelchairs....they must not have a lot of money right? They have all those doctor bills right?? Do you see my point Your comments were mean spirited so I am just sending a little back.
So I guess that's the end of my part in this. Sorry Brian really I did not know you before this exchange, and I still don't, but I have learned enough to dislike your character very greatly.
Again not that anything I think matters to anyone, but it is, what it is!
Peace Dope & Love
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Location: SE Michigan | OK, OK, Les and Randy, you've got me feeling bad now. I've never been called an elitist before. The truth is that if someone took the time to call me or email explaining some special circumstance I would probably accept a money order. But I would not ship for 15 to 30 days until I was absolutely certain that the money order cleared.
For years I fought using charge cards, direct payroll deposit, and online banking and bill paying. Now I embrace them. I love being able to manage my affairs from my computer. I hate going to the bank
So I confess, one of the main reasons I don’t want a money order is because I'll have to get dressed, risk life and limb driving my car to the bank, then wait in line with all the other non-elitist low-life’s to deposit the stinking thing! Then wait a couple weeks to be sure you don’t report it as lost when you try to scam me.
There you have it! I am a lazy elitist oppressor of the economically disadvantaged!! |
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Location: North Texas | Most sellers will take any kind of payment if there is a good communication between the parties. The protection of money orders is only for the money order itself. Once it's cashed the protection is over. If the seller is a sleeze, and does not honor the transaction, what can the buyer do about it? Yes, a money order is the best kind of payment, for the seller. Not so great for a buyer. When I send out a money order, there is always prayer involved. The system is tilted towards the seller anyway. I think the item should be recieved before the money order is sent, but it does not work that way. If a buyer is expected to have faith in the seller, why not vice versa? |
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Location: NJ | ebay existed pre pay pal and it will exist after pay pal |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Just to be clear - everything I have posted here relates to ebay auctions with unknown buyers/sellers. I have no problem giving my credit card over the phone to legitimate businesses like Al. Or to waitresses with exposed hooters. Dave |
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Location: North Texas | I think Paypal will exist as long as Ebay does. Ebay owns Paypal. The company gets a piece of every transaction, every step of the way. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Geez Randy. It's not an issue where the moral fiber of the republic is at stake. Get off your high horse.
You will concede that there is fraud and scams on e-bay...right? Remember Hector? Is it okay that someone would only do business, where there is a level of risk, within a certain comfort level? By your remarks, when someone asks to see your drivers license number when you cash a check you should be outraged that your honesty is being questioned ...when you pay with a check at Sam's Club and they run it through a verification service you should be livid that they would want to see if you have had a history of passing bad checks. How dare they judge you!
You mentioned about how everyone should be given the opportunity to do the right thing. Does that mean I should leave my car door unlocked with my guitar in the front seat so I can give someone the opportunity to do the right thing and leave it alone? Do you lock the doors to your house at night? You have likened a "PayPal" only policy as an obvious "character flaw". Are the other examples also a flaw?
You have based your arguments on "uppercrust / uppity folk" vs the "lesser / dirty" type. These devisive, stereotypical descriptions all have come from you. And, although he does not need my defense, you have gone and made it personal and impuned the character of someone you do not even know. Such attacks usually speaks more to the person making the comments than the intended target itself.
PayPal is just a way some people preffer to do informal business with each other. Big deal. It's does not speak to the issue of prejudice and moral values or the lack there of. Why it pushed your hot button and turned on the sarcasim machine, I don't know.
And for me,trips the post office are few and far between. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by Buckaroo:
I think Paypal will exist as long as Ebay does. Ebay owns Paypal. The company gets a piece of every transaction, every step of the way. I do not agree.
there are some functions of pay pal that are contrary to the way credit cards service is set up. some day they will get sued or the feds will come down on them and it will be over.
pay pal acts like a bank and they are not |
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Location: closely held secret | Dave, Brad and Al, thank you for your glimpses of sanity in this thread. I wasn't going to get into this, but Randy, maybe you should leave the 'dope' out of more than just your sig. What business is it of yours how people conduct business on Ebay?
You accuse Brian (whom you don't know) of holding attitudes that you are the only one espousing here. Bigotry, racism, elitism? Because he doesn't want to risk his money doing business the way you think he should? I suppose banks are racist and elitist because they won't loan money to someone with bad credit?
You keep going back to Brian's 'bottom of the economic barrel' statement. I won't go into how typical it is for a certain segment of our society to go ballistic at statements like that. Hello? IT'S THE TRUTH. Some people have money and some people don't. Some people are scammers and some people aren't. If you want to gamble your money to find out, that's your business. Who are you to judge those that choose not to?
And finally, let's not forget whose broad-minded, fair, balanced statement set this conversation into motion:
Originally posted by northcountry:
My real problem is all the idiots who sell on ebay that only accept Paypal only as a payment option????? How stupid is this??????????????
Money is Money, what is the hurry? Why would anyone limit those who may want to bid by not accepting all normal forms of payment. To answer your polite question... because they choose to. And you can certainly choose not to business with them. THAT is your available form of protest, not trash-talking members of this forum because you disagree with it. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Thanks guys, it's nice to have friends. I was starting to think I really was a bad person. |
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Location: closely held secret | Cause you hang out with a guy who wears fishnets? Naw... |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | From my experience the Bim likes to be tipped in cash. She'll remember you next time.
Speaking of cash, I had one dude send me an envelope stuffed with cash by mail for his purchase. I really prefer PayPal. I wondered why he trusted me so much, it would've been so easy to say, no, never got the cash. I sent the item to him. But that's setting yourself up for a disappointment. |
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Location: south east Michigan | There are those who do business (as in dabble here and there), and there are those who are IN business on e-bay. PayPal may serve one better than the other. |
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| Well, when it comes down to it all, ebay and paypal and money orders, etc, are only as honest as the people who use them...I pay for small ebay purchases with a postal money order by certified mail, and large ebay purchase by certified bank wires, which get there immediately. I inform the sellers in advance, and if they don't want my business they can cancel my bid, simple...
Steve |
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Location: North Texas | I'm not defending Paypal, by any means, and I don't care who uses the service, or does not use it. Al, what are you disagreeing to? Ebay owns Paypal. They work hand in hand. Yes, they are monopolistic, but then, so is Microsoft, the NFL, and the film industry. I don't see the feds stopping them. As for the credit card companies, they are some of the worst, most crooked finacial manipulaters on the planet, but we do business with them. We have to. The revenues of Ebay, Exxon, General Electric, or what have you, are enormous, and, therefore, they can do whatever the heck they want to. They've got the gold. I don't like Paypal, or Microsoft, but I use Windows XP to make online payments via Paypal. I'll send a money order if I have to. Cheers |
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Location: SE Michigan | Steve commented "I pay for small ebay purchases with a postal money order by certified mail, and large ebay purchase by certified bank wires"
But wouldn’t a bank transfer require the other party to have a bank account?
What about the poor skid-row bum with no address trying to sell his Collins Dread?
Or the poor Indonesian street urchin who wants to sell his Adamas Slothead?
Don’t you see that requiring them to have a bank account oppresses their right to be poor and disadvantaged? The United Nations needs to pass a referendum protecting the rights of the poor and disadvantaged to scam the elitist western Paypal-using nations!
After all, it's our fault they are poor! If we did not thwart their entrepreneurial projects to scam us wealthy westerners, (by using Paypal) maybe they wouldn’t be so poor! We are a bunch of heartless greedy bastards!
By the way Randy, all of my auctions are US ONLY!! NO INTERNATIONAL BIDDERS!! |
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| ...that was all 'tongue in cheek' right?... |
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Location: SE Michigan | Oh no, let me guess, Steve is from Indonesia or his best friend is a skid row bum and now I've offended him! Sorry Steve!
Of course I am being sarcastic!
My point is that the people who object the most to processes that thwart crime are usually the criminal’s themslves!!! (or at least people very sympathetic to criminals)
It's just like the need for a National ID card or surveillance cameras, the people who object the loudest are usually the people with something to hide!
Oh-oh....now I've gone and done it! |
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| Perhaps not but it sure is some funny shit!
I think Brian would make a great spokesman for Ebay & Paypal?
Life is so damned short, we barely have time to live it and sneak in a passion or two, like music. Don't waste time like I just did, it tires you out and it just annoys the pig.
Randy |
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Location: SE Michigan | Oynk! I think I'm annoyed. |
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Location: North Texas | I can't remember if I'm for, or against it. I forgot what it was we were talking about. Anybody got a program? |
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| Now that's funny!
I think what happened was Brian lost another guitar sale because he would not let some kid send him cash?
But I could be wrong I often am
Randy |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | No more offers to mediate. You need a referee. I keep checking to see if there is something about Guitar Center in this thread. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Personally, I will never accept a third party, cosigned severence check from the former brother-in-law of a former Enron employee ever again! |
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Location: SE Michigan | "I keep checking to see if there is something about Guitar Center in this thread"
The discussion about Guitar Center moved to the "Ovation & Guitar Center -- An Alternative View" thread. We are discussing great topics of a critical social nature here.
So who here supports giving the Hooters waitress their Visa card? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Only if she lets me swipe it myself. |
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| Hey BrianT, I'm cool with your sentiments, it's just been a long thread and I didn't want to miss the context of it all...I'm not a big ebayer but I know an ebay business is whole new ball game in comparison with just being a casual buyer...I was told by one seller that sending him a postal money order was sufficient, that I didn't have to bother with the certified mail/return receipt...but, better safe than sorry...I've known buyers who got scammed buying fishing lures/bait and tackle, and ebay wouldn't do anything about it...so,I don't think I could handle losing hundreds on a guitar...
Steve |
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| Amazing Steve! Once again it's the bidders that get scammed more often than the sellers, you mentioned this yourself, yet my point seems to elude some in this thread??? Curious...??? confusing?????
Steve;
this guy would not only, "NOT" let you bid on his auctions because you have no paypal account. But he feels your at the IN HIS OWN WORDS WORDS.....The Bottom of the econimic barrel because you have no Paypal account......yet your "cool with his sentiments" I am a seller also have been for longer than Brian have perfect feedback and would be happy to do business with you and would not expect you to have to ever email me for permission to send a money order...........I am baffeled.....and at a total logical loss.................................. You win Brian! Paypal is the only payment I will accept from now on and yes people who do not have paypal accounts are dirt! They seem to like being insulted???
Like I always say I could be wrong I often am.
Randy |
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Location: SE Michigan | OK, even I am starting to weary of this thread. I am not stating categorically that people who lack Paypal accounts are social or economic dirt bags, rather, that lacking a Paypal account when you are an active Ebay-er TENDS TO INDICATE, that maybe the person in question does not have all their pieces in play.
I don’t have the time and I don’t want to exert the effort to weed through the minutia of every detail of every bidder’s peculiar circumstance. Just as the rental car companies use credit cards as a quick indicator of economic responsibility, so I consider Paypal a quick and general indicator of a bidder's ability to complete a smooth transaction. Plus it protects both parties and it's convenient. But we all know there are no absolutes in this life, so of course your mileage may vary.
As far as the economic bottom of the barrel goes, someone has to be at the bottom. It's simple reality. I hope things improve for those at the lower end of the spectrum, but I have problems of my own and a family to care for. Good luck with your future Ebay transactions. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | We tried to get it back on track, but no. Then I really thought we could derail it again with the swiping your card at Hooters stuff, but nothing appears to work. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I think we all agree to disagree. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Okay...Because Randy said so, let's say that Brian "won".
Let's move on.
As a point of order I move this thread be closed...dead...kaput!
Do I hear a second? |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | I second it. Let's remember we all like Ovation guitars. We don't have to agree on anything else.
Roger |
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Location: south east Michigan | I have a second....
All in favor say ..aye!
(one will do) |
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Location: Cicero, NY | AYE! |
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| Ahhh crap!........Aye! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Motion carried!!!
This thread will now be allowed to sink deep down into the OFC archives.
Let's all go over to Hooters! |
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Location: closely held secret | Hey, I think... uh...........guys? Weren't we just talking about...Hello? Hmmm.
Where'd everybody go? :confused: |
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Guitar Center -- bah