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Location: SE Michigan | So if the clamp-down on TAB sites pissed you off, take a look at this:
http://www.newcitychicago.com/chicago/4925.html
This whole music royalty thing is getting ridiculous. Don’t these people get the idea that if I cover someone else’s song it’s like free advertising? In today’s age of satellite radio and self-publishing I would think they would want all the exposure they can get for their music.
What if a bar-owner hires an artist that does all of his or her own material (or material that is not covered by ASCAP)? What if you play a song and switch some words around or change the arrangement a bit?
It’s really a shame. Lately I’ve been noticing fewer open-mic venues around the Detroit area. I wonder if this is part of the reason why? |
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Location: SoCal | ...if I cover someone else’s song it’s like free advertising? heck, they pay me not to play their songs :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: |
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Location: SE Michigan | almost every song that is recorded, as well as many arrangements of "traditional" songs like "Happy Birthday," fall under the jurisdiction of ASCAP or BMI, the other licensing agency. Fees are collected for music on CDs, downloaded music, radio airplay, jukeboxes, live music and theatrical performances, music played in bars, restaurants, elevators, cell phones, on television networks and in films. Even the Girl Scouts pay ASCAP a fee for music performed around the campfire.
So does Chucky-Cheese have to pay an ASCAP fee because people sing "Happy-Birthday" at their kid's birthday party? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | More insanity.
Suppose I go up and do a three song set at my local pub's open mic night. What exactly is the royalty I'm supposed to pay, and how do I pay it? As a practical matter, do they really want the paperwork hassles that would come from full compliance?
These guys are nuts.
Jeff |
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Location: USA | The bar or club pays a standard fee.
When you establish yourself, thats when they come after you.
http://www.myspace.com/styllheartandsoul |
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Location: Omaha, NE | What is a "standard fee"? Is someone supposed to keep track of every song played? If not, how are the royalty payments computed?
Jeff |
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Location: NJ | They pretty much base it on the amount of people that you can "potentially" expose the material too. They do the same thing with sports channels (like the YES Network). They calculate how many people may be exposed to it, and figure out how much you owe. . .
I may be wrong, but I believe that ASCAP/BMI get paid a fee when you have a juke box in an establishment as well.
I've seen a lot of places give up live entertainment because of this . . |
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Location: Upper Left USA | More reasons to play in church! |
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Location: south east Michigan | That's why they don't sing Happy Birthday at frachise eaterys.
At Texas Roadhouse Steakhouse you get a YEEE-HAA.
This open mic thing is nuts though.
Looks like we will have to go the way of the blind pig and the speakeasy. "pssst..Elvis sent me" |
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Location: East Tennessee | As posted by MWoody;
More reasons to play in church!
I like playing a lot of the old hymns, Public Domain. :D |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | This is why I've headed for trad music....if it has a copyright, I won't play it outside the walls of my home.
Roger |
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Location: nyc area | the Harry Fox Agency, in NYC is the organisation that collects royalties for artists that have songs covered by other artists.. there is a law that lets anyone record anyone elses songs, as long as they pay a small fee... I have a new jazz/blues standards cd about to be released, and i payed 8.5 cents a song per cd, which I was happy to do, its the right thing to do, as I will sell the cd... however, paying royalties for open mike performances is rediculous, IMHO |
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Location: Midwest | My Top 40 band was getting bugged by Assgap from the seventies until I retired in 1994. (they probably started bugging someone else) They never got a nickel, but they sure got some Club owners P.O'd. I guess with the "Win" for the industry against downloading music they feel they have some merit again.
We would alter our songs so they were not exact copies of the originals. Back then they didn't have a leg to stand on, now they have a podium... |
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Location: Avondale, AZ | Lately I’ve been noticing fewer open-mic venues around the Detroit area. I wonder if this is part of the reason why?
No Brian, it is because there is less talent in Detroit these days. They keep migrating here for the weather. |
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Location: Tennessee | I agree that charging a royalty for open mike performance is over the top. However, I can see the policy for a club that books a top cover band and charges to get into the club. There are a lot of bands making some pretty good scratch covering 70's R&B/Funk, Classic Rock, etc. If they're making a living off of other peoples IP, they should pay the royalties. After all, most of the people are coming to listen, dance and sing along to the songs. The band playing the music is just vehicle for the original song.
On the other hand, the situation reminds me of a similar situation when the IRS put their agents on a commission for collecting additional taxes from filers. Things got very nasty and those "agents" were dirty dealers. I had a very unpleasant rumble with those bastards. Congress finally woke up and rewrote the legislation, but not before a lot of otherwise reasonable people got screwed. Maybe ASCAP and BMI decided to hire some aggressive "enforcers" and put them on commission. |
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Location: south east Michigan | if it has a copyright, I won't play it outside the walls of my home.
That is sad.
Winston Smith was just 21 years to early.
Fahrenheit 451....15 years from now we will have to gather in a remote forest to verbaly pass music on from person to person.
Would Dylan not want "Blowing in the Wind" to be played? Would CSN&Y want to restrict the playing of "Ohio"?
Because today's manufactured, pansey-ass boy bands will never have enough quality material for even half of a greatest hits CD, do they feel they need to squeeze every penny out of "Hmmm-bop" to support them and their bling for the next 30 years??? |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | "pansey-ass boy bands"? WOW! Just for fun, what kind of beer do you drink? |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | WOW!!!! GO, BRAD, GO!!!!!! Can we throw Britney and Jessica in there for good measure????
EVENTUALLY (but probably not within my lifetime), all the music we love WILL BE public domain/trad when the copyrights expire. And Pete Seeger has got the right attitude NOW.....he never cares to do anything to restrict the playing of his songs.
Roger |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Originally posted by Slipkid:
Would Dylan not want "Blowing in the Wind" to be played? Would CSN&Y want to restrict the playing of "Ohio"? Apparently, the answer is yes. Otherwise they could both release the songs to public domain and allow unlimited playing royalty free.
If these artists were to actually live a lot of their own writing (i.e., walk the walk instead of just talk the talk), they would, in fact, release their songs to public domain and would refuse royalty payments, asking their royalties be spread over the bottom 20% of royalty receivers. However, please remember a great many composers have long ago sold their rights to their songs (remember hearing about the sale of the Lennon-McCartney catalog a long time ago, and to Michael Jackson, no less), and the copywrite holders are now investors wanting increased returns on their investments. |
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Location: SE Michigan | I found this quote from Woody Guthrie on another guitar forum:
"This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don't give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do." W.G. Also Ive heard that churches have to pay ASCAP/BMI fees because a lot of religious music is covered by copyrights, that is unless they only play the older non-copyright stuff. Seems strange because a church is (in theory) a non-profit organization. |
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| Nothing like shooting off your own foot! You have got to be Fuc&ing Kidding me!!!!!!!!!!
personally I say sue me!!!!!!!! I'd love to be the first guy to run this one through the courts!
These guy's are like little kids who because they are loosing want to take all the marbles with them.
I know there are copyrights but hey unless a cover band is milly vanillying the actual bands own music played through the system then I would say it is not an exact copy and considering the damage to the whole music industry from loss of equipment sales (Like Ovation Guitars) because musicians have no legal outlet to bother using them These idiots will destroy themselves to prove a point!
NUTZ! |
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Location: Ct./ USA | My creative blood is starting to boil. Fellow guitarists, write your own music then "THEY" can GO ......... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | It seems to me that if they just went after all the Elvis impersonators, they could fill their pockets with more than enough coin and they could leave the rest of us alone ... |
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Location: NJ | . . . but if THAT were t'happen Dave, we'd ALL be paying for Las Vegas' unemployment benefits . . . |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Churches pay a CCLI (Christian Copyright Licensing International) fee or they are suposed to anyway. We never did until we got a new music director and we are now copyright compliant. Even if I download songs from Music Now, we have to pay for enough copies for everyone in the band. |
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| Churches pay a CCLI (Christian Copyright Licensing International) fee or they are suposed to anyway. We never did until we got a new music director and we are now copyright compliant. Even if I download songs from Music Now, we have to pay for enough copies for everyone in the band.
Well now ain't that just the christian thing to do.. CCLI.......... Profit for the Christian's who write praise music for churches and their musicians who then use it to praise God.
Never thought it would cost money to sing in Church!
I am very sorry I know I am out of line here. there are a lot of Praise musicans in here and I do not belittle your music nor your faith....but copyright licencing for religious music that is being primarily used my musicians who are not making profit just praise in church????? I don't get it. Does not seem like the sharing community I always thought the chrisitans were.
I can't begin to imagine the Music police are going to start cruising bars to catch bands who have not paid the music mafia!!!!
I;ll tell ya what....I am not exagerating one little bit here...If they ever tell me I have to pay a fee to each band I wish to copy a song from with my band. And by the way Bands don't make a lot of money in bars or at events very much any more...so not much money to go round anyway. But When the day comes that they ask me for this payment I will never buy another CD again I will look for nothing but bootleg stuff and if they force the band into breaking up from the fines they will want to levey I will sell the equipment and never buy anything from a music store again. How many fines will it take to break the music instrument industry? How many bands do you need to keep from forming before giants like Gibson & Fender go out. Ohhhh I see these fines will only be enforcable in the United States right?
What a complete farce! I checked it is not April Fools Day but it sure seems like it.... this idea was brough to life by a FOOL somewhere.
Randy |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | These people don't realize that a song getting heard is what gets people to buy CDs and sheet music. All we have to do is STOP playing it and they might wake up(after the money dries up).
MIGHT.....
Writing your own is a WONDERFUL idea.
Roger |
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Location: Colorado | CCLI works - and it is not very expensive - it came about because so many churches no longer use hymnals - but rather reprint or project lyrics...funny - most of us have have no problem buying a book of music...or a hymnal - both of which in many cases - have secured the permissions...with CCLI your fees also provide an incredible resource for you - so IMHO it is worth it - and in compliance with copyright law...
Seems to me the way to go for performance rights is to charge nominal fees to pay for membership and unlimited performance rights. MattSmith got it right... just pay the nominal chrages...you end up feeling better - because you paid some one else - for their work...at negotiated rates - for recording..normally 2 cents to 10 cents per copy..not outlandish.
You can also seek the permission route...in my experience depending on the job/venue/audience...getting permissions are just a few emails away...it used to be a lot harder. About 90% of the time I have asked - the artists/publishers in the Christian realm have granted permission without fee. The 10% that ask for the fees typically are the ones truly making working wages off the stuff...and are expremely appreciative you've played within the rules.
As for me - all ya'll are more than welcome to attempt to make a living off the music I've written..Lord knows I haven't! |
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| As for me - all ya'll are more than welcome to attempt to make a living off the music I've written..Lord knows I haven't!
Well said! Very nominal fees are OK I am sure but the overall idea seems just so silly. One hand already washes the other here.
I would have to say Thanks for the offer to use your Music this is very nice but I do not know many bands now that make living from performing other peoples music as it is. Very funny way you put it though.....Almost all cover bands and many bands trying to break into the original music market have to keep their day jobs as it is now. The copyright police are wrong if they think small bands are raking in the dough from the use of this copyrighted material. The cover bands create more CD sales than the promoters do. The promoters should pay good cover bands to use thier music!
I remember back when I was doing this band stuff as a kid of 16-17-18 the money was good in the bigger bars you could bring in $500-$700 a night even more with a cover charge, and that was not bad for 1979 or so and up here in my area not anywhere near the metros...You played two or three times a week and you could get by on just the band money. Then the whole drinking age thing came into being the bars took a big hit and lost a lot of revenue so the whole Band thing became a finacial loosing battle. It was soon hard to get $400 a night and cover charges were tough to get a bar to accept. A 5 piece band with a soundman couldn't work enough to survive with pay checks like that. Acoustic Solo or Duo work was the best way to go and still is actually... Even now The money is not much better and this is 2006 man Inflation has not caught up with the band business. The project I am invloved with now has almost nothing to do with putting cash in my pocket. In fact I will have so much invested in equipment by the time I am on the road with this I will never see a profit return. Copyright charges are just another slap in the face for the musicians who are a big part of the musical instrument and equipment market.
Randy |
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Location: south east Michigan | Writing your own is a WONDERFUL idea Easier said than done.
The day I can write like Lennon & McCartney and Townshend and The Eagles is the day I can stop singing their songs. |
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Location: SE Michigan | A friend of mine used to have a bumper sticker that read "feed a band and not a juke-box".
It almost seems like all of these forces are conspiring to drive a stake through the small-show live music business.
I wonder if some day in the future everyone will have forgotton how to play real instruments and music will be syntheticly produced by computers (with of course the copyright fees collected). |
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Location: south east Michigan | Your frightening me Brian.
Please stop.
I do beleive that there will not be as many people playung an instrument in the future as there are today. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | "If it ain't live, it's jive" I wonder what the DJ's have to pay? Seems like every time I go looking for a nice place to spend the evening listening to music, there are far more DJ's than bands. |
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Location: New Hampsha | I used to work for a motorcycle shop and we had a radio playing in the parts department. One day an ASCrAP "cop" came in to the shop and demanded that the owner pay a royalty fee because the radio could be heard in the showroom and we were playing background music for the customers. The radio was turned off. Seems even "elevator muzac" is subject to fees! But I couldn't believe that there were people that roamed from store to store policing them for fees like that! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | You mean to tell me that a motorcycle shop full of mechanics couldn't figure out how to fit the radio straight up the guys arse? Dave |
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Location: NJ | I can see (to a limited degree) SOME of the basis behind the whole ASCAP/BMI-thing (although I WOULD like to know exactly HOW MUCH of these "fees" are going to the orginal artists, and HOW MUCH is going for ASCAP salaries, "administration costs", etc.).
And I'd also like to know:
I play a lot of obscure tunes (especially at solo gigs) that a lot of people might not be familiar with. I've had NUMEREROUS instances where people would come up and say "Hey! That was a GREAT tune! . . who DOES that??"
I've often jotted down the atist/title, and even the name of the CD that it's on . . .
So, . . when this person goes out the next day and BUYS the CD, . . what's MY cut on Promotion/Sales of the CD, and who do I send the bill to?? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
One day an ASCrAP "cop" came in to the shop and demanded that the owner pay a royalty fee because the radio could be heard in the showroom They will do the same thing for your music on hold. If you have a radion station or CD playing your hold music, you'll get busted. In fact, the MUZAK people around here used to call places just so they could get put on hold. If they found you playing bootleg hold music, they'd make their pitch for buying MUZAK.
There is one example that I know of that shows some rational thinking in this area: Technically speaking, most bars are violating NFL licensing agreements when they show football games on their TV's. At one time (I think this was 12 or 15 years ago or so) the NFL was threatening to start enforcing their licences, which would have required bars to pay fees. Fortunately, the beer companies (which represent an extremely significant amount of NFL ad revenue) wised up and realized they would rather have people in bars, watching NFL games and drinking beer than sitting at home watching and drinking milk. A little influence from the brewers, and the NFL backed off.
Jeff |
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Location: SE Michigan | I work in the telecom business and I have been round-and-round the music-on-hold ASCAP-Royalty business. Two easy ways to deal with the problem:
(1) If you are using a radio station, tell ASCAP that the music is interference and you have been complaining to the phone company for months to have it fixed. (Radio stations sometimes do bleed into phone systems). If they question you and want to examine your equipment tell them to go get a sheriff and search warrant.
(2) Tune your radio to talk-radio. That's what many of my customers have done.
Which has me wondering....If someone from ASCAP hassled you or a bar owner during a gig, tell them you wrote all the songs, and if they disagree, tell them to go ahead and file a lawsuit for plagerism. Something about these assholes makes me just want to F&@# with their heads.
And I'm not out to cheat any artists here. As has already been mentioned, I'll bet the average artist would be thrilled to have you cover and promote their material....it's the middle men and lawyers that are making the money. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Brad, one doesn't HAVE to be Lennon or McCartney or Townshend or Jagger or Richard or Dylan or Crosby or Stills or Nash or even Young to write good songs. I still aspire to it, haven't written anything worth a shuck, maybe I never will, but I still want to TRY.
I believe there WILL be as many people playing musical instruments in the future as in the past. They just may not be guitars. I've noticed a large number of older people taking up instruments as they retire...the instruments tend to be dulcimers, mandolins, banjos and autoharps....FOLK-type instruments.
Oh, and UKES, too.... :D
Roger |
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| Hey interesting............ Read What I said last...Then read what Cliff Said......He's doing the Gig thing right now!...... and his point is exactly my point! Good bands do more to promote music than the promoters do! .... If a good cover band plays songs and plays them well People will actually talk on the way home and plan on buying a CD of some bands song they heard at the event the night before! If your good enough to play fairly new music.... a Cover band can sell dozens of new CD's every night they play.
I am working on a brand new "The Syn" Song called Golden Age.....If I do it well people will ask us who it is....like they do with Cliff and they will buy this brand new CD.
Randy |
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Location: Utah | This may be due to the tremendous power ASCAP holds within the entertainment industry. Organized in 1913 after composers like Steven M. Foster died penniless while publishers made millions, ASCAP won a series of court decisions in the early 1930s that gave them unprecedented ability to collect fees and royalties for songwriters. I would venture to say that now instead of the publishers making millions with the composers dying penniless, it is ASCAP and the lawyers making millions while the bar owners and small time musicians are going penniless.
Sshhh, nobody tell Steven Tyler, but my son and I played "Dream On" just now, and the dog was listening, and we didn't pay the royalties..... |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by Old Applause Owner:
..... to write good songs. I still aspire to it, haven't written anything worth a shuck, maybe I never will, but I still want to TRY. Sure you can. Get Sheila Davis' books The Craft Of Lyric Writing, and/or Successful Lyric Writing. I'm also kinda partial to Jimmy Webbs "Tunesmith."
Everyone has at least one great song in them. You'll probably have to write over 100 to find it though.... |
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Location: North Idaho | Sounds like ASCAP has become an entity with too many employees trying to justify and keep their positions. Who regulates ASCAP? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by tdeej:
Who regulates ASCAP? I don't think anyone regulates them. By what authority would they?
The only 'regulation' they are subject to is the copyright law itself. They have no way of directly collecting money from you. They can demand a license fee (or whatever they call it) but if you refuse to pay, the only thing they can do is sue you. At that point it is up to the courts and their intepretation of copyright law.
I believe the copyright law should be changed to incorporate a two part test: Does the audience pay to attend and is the performer paid for performing? If both are "yes", then license fees should be paid. If either is "no", then no license fee should be paid.
Cheers!
Jeff |
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Location: ms | As I have posted before, I've been on the loosing end of the royalty situation. The first time somebody recorded some of my songs, the label told me they listed my songs with ASCAP. They had the words to my song inside the CD insert with ASCAP beside my name in the credits, but as I said the songs were never listed, after about a year and a half I figured this out. I was able to recoop the sales royalties, but not able to get the royalties for lost air play. We are not talking about a lot of money and the label was not being dishonest intentionally. It was just an oversight on their part and I was young and didn't know to follow up on it myself. That being said, I completely agree with OLD APPLAUSE OWNER AND NORTH COUNTRY that hearing cover songs can't help but make people, including myself, sometimes go out and buy a CD, I probably never would have bought without hearing the cover. |
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Location: ms | By the way, I failed to say it was a well known Christian label that my songs were with, even though they were not all Christian songs. All is forgiven and we live and learn! At least some people do. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I just heard that Powertabs was shut down last week. Merry Christmas. Reminds me of the time that we had to try to stop a store from playing pirated Christmas music on Christmas Eve. All the judges tried to hide, rather than issue and injunction. |
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ASCAP going after live music and open-mic venues