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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I may very well regret this in the morning.
Table of Contents:
Introduction
The Internet
Mission Statement
Moderators
The Old Guard
Newbies
Off Topic
Politics/Religion/Sex
Alter Egos
Where do we go from here?
Introduction:
This is just one man’s opinion and I’m not saying they are any more valid than any other member’s ideas. But I have been around here awhile and I have been active so please allow me a little leeway.
The Internet
It will help to understand my points if you use this analogy.
Think of the internet as the world. You hop on the highway, travel at the speed of light, and arrive at an address. Think of it as a typical house, on a typical street, in a typical town. You are invited in to this private house to sit down, chat, & enjoy what this unique home has to offer. It is not a podium in a public town square. It’s a place meant for a specific purpose. If you want politics, that’s two blocks down on the other side of the street. If you want to talk religion, it’s two houses down on the left.
And another thing about this house. It remembers everything you have ever said while you were in it. (Kinda like my wife! ;) )
Mission Statement
Ideally this site was meant to be about music, Ovation guitars, and the people who played them. And to be kind to each other. In the real world, after over 5000 members, and after many personal friendships have evolved, that ideal might vary. Just how much it varies should be a matter of concern, consideration and review.
Moderators:
This board is moderated. They were those two guys that opened the door for you when you came in off the street. They gave you a sheet with the ground rules for the house. This board is moderated so don’t be surprised if at times you are.... moderated. It’s not meant to be personal. It’s not an attack on your personal freedom of speech. It’s not a case for the Supreme Court. And it is certainly not an excuse to attack the moderator’s intelligence or way of life or accuse him of being a fascist nazi pig. He’s just the guy who is trying to keep a handle on what is going on in his house. He wants his party to go in a certain way. If you want the drunken frat house party it’s two streets over. The orgy? It’s three houses past that.
And there are other moderators that must be remembered and given the due respect and consideration. The folks at the factory, you know, the people responsible for the product that we love so much. The folks who’s job it is to run a professional, profitable business in a tough, competitive economy. They are the fine people who have given us unprecedented access to the purpose of our little club. The same people who taken some of our requests / dreams and made them into a reality.
The Old Guard:
Some members have been here a long, long time. To them even I am a “newbie”. The possible pitfall to that length of time at the wheel is that the Old Guard can fall into the “Heard it all before, Said it all before” mind set. Perhaps newbies would better grow into the club if one of us bit the bullet and answered the same question we have heard 2,398 times before about the tendency of the Ovation bowl to slip off the lap. I know it’s much easier to just say, “Do a search” but we have all had those type of questions ourselves at some time.
Let’s embrace those new minds full of mush and mold them to our liking. :D
Newbies:
Hopefully you were given a warm welcome soon after you first post. But be warned. You are coming fresh into a group with A LOT of history behind them. Be patient. It will take some time to get the feel of the place.
You may get the impression that the OFC is “clicky” and that there is an “in” crowd. Well… in a way you are right. But not “clicky” in the exclusion type of way and not “in” in a superior type of way. This is a group where members have traveled thousands of miles and have spent some big, big bucks to be with each other at many different types of occasions. This type of face to face gatherings breeds a higher level of friendship than can be had just out of a computer screen alone. So until you have made trips like that, or encouraged an OFC member through a serious illness, or anonymously and behind the scenes kicked in $20, $50, or $100 to help a family in need, don’t judge to harshly.
Off Topic:
With a group as old as this there has to be some level of off topic chatter to keep up the interest and because of the friendships that have grown. What concerns me lately is that the percentage of off topic stuff is rapidly growing. And much of it is coming from “newbies” who should still be more interested in the aspects of Ovation guitars than the mindless banter about _______ (fill in the blank).
You can say, “Well… don’t read it then!” The problem occurs when you have to pick through a number of posts to find one about guitars or music. And because the “Old Guard” goes off topic because of the level of familiarity, the newbies look at it as a free for all. Next thing you know we are looking more like a Howard Stern or Comedy Central fanclub rather than a guitar fanclub.
This can also happen mid-thread which makes it even harder for both the Old Guard and the Newbies to read and learn about Ovation guitars. For instance…. Andrew’s recent thread. Here a man comes on with a serious, heartfelt concern. It’s maybe one of the most serious threads written in the last 12 months. Within a few posts some suggests that someone tell a joke. From there the thread is a wash in extensive talk about the human digestive system. If I was Andrew and I checked back in to see how my serious thoughts were being received I just might find myself comforted with my decision to walk away from here.
Politics/Religon/Sex
Politics…. Please… not here. Despite the good intentions it never ends well. Go to the party 3 doors down. They love it there.
Religion…. More of a gray area. Praise and worship musicians are a big part of this board. And personally, I think they have been very tolerant. Perhaps tolerant to a fault with what goes on here but yet they stick around. I think the P&W members have shown much more care and consideration not to offend than the non P&W members.
Sex….. To be honest, as much as I love sex, I mean really love sex in it’s proper format, I’m getting tired of it here. The TV show Threes Company went on for years with T&A and sexual innuendo. I think the OFC makes Jack, Janet and Chrissy look like rank amateurs.
It’s not that I am offend or shocked, though I am sure some are. I’m more concerned with the bigger picture. How many women who would make a valuable addition to the OFC have been driven off? How many parents who have kids that are interested in guitars look at this board and say, “No way!” Do you post things that you would not want your wife or children to read? Do you post things that you would not speak out loud in a crowded shopping mall? If your response is, “Well if they can’t take a joke, than f&%k ‘em” please give it another thought.
Do you expect our friends at the factory to sift through all that nonsense in search of what features we might like for next years collectors series? Don’t you think it sad that and executive at Kaman cannot have his female secretary scan the board or him? Do you expect your requests and suggestions to still be taken seriously?
Now I’m not saying that we need to be reduced to the level of Mr. Rogers. There is nothing wrong with an occasional reference. But come on guys, let’s practice just a little moderation and consideration for others.
To sum it up, a “F^%$ YOU! YOU F*&KING F*&^WAD!” gets a smiley face while a simple “God Bless You” is looked on with scorn and suspicion. Is something wrong here?
Alter Egos:
We are probably not who we seem to be. Two reasons.
ONE…. When you read this you are perceiving it sifted though your own voice, ideals, agendas and prejudices. Most of you know me only as some flickering letters in a TV screen.
TWO… It might not be the real “us” making the post. Instead its that alter-ego, super-ego, Mr. Hyde guy. The guy who has had just about as much crap as he can take for the day and needs an outlet. The clown, the agitator, the tuff guy.
I have met a good number of OFC members face to face and have been surprised how different some of them are from their screen personna. And then there are some who are just what you would expect.
So..Where do we go from here?
First, thanks for hanging in with me. Instead of the usual 2 cents I have spent at least $189 and some change. I’m almost done.
Suggestions….
1) Let the moderators moderate. Expect the moderators to moderate. If need be, ASK the moderators to moderate.
2) If the owners of the house feel that they have to take you to task, be gracious. They will probably take the effort to do it in private. Respect that. They deserve at least as much respect as your best OFC buddy and lately they have been getting a hell of a lot less than that. I’m not saying that you have to kiss butt and worship at the alter of Miles and Al, just treat your hosts for what they are… your hosts.
3) Always concider the bigger picture. Take two steps back and think about what you are typing. Do you really want to say that to the folks at the factory? Do you really want member # 2874’s 13 year old daughter to read it? Is it really YOU making the post your crazy alter ego?
4) If 85% of your posting is not about guitars or music,is this really the place you want to be or is the OFC the only forum you know that will put up with it?
5) If the OFC makes you miserable and crazy and you are just not getting what you need, please….. walk away. It will be better for everyone.
6) Play your Ovation more often.
Thanks everyone.
I will now hit the “Add New Topic” button and hope for the best. |
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Location: Houston, Texas | Holy smokes! You expect me to read all of that?
Ok. But it better be good. |
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Location: south east Michigan | It's a MANIFESTO.
It's supposed to be wordy. |
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Location: ranson,wva | well done..that just ate up a good 3 1/2 mins to read..jason |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Well thought out and well written...which leads me to one smartass retorical question.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL BRAD!
j/k unless this is really BrianT using your OFC name. |
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Location: NJ | WHICH house was it again that's having the orgy??. . . |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Cliff,
Just look for Jeff W hanging outside in a tree! |
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Location: south east Michigan | :D
So far I'm pleased with the responce.
Thanks |
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Location: Vermont USA | Your a good man Brad. Well said
Paul (Pauly) |
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Location: SoCal | I read it and boy is my mouth tired.....
Well said Bradley. |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Very erudite, Brad. Thank you. I know something about group dynamics & social development, and true to form, and on schedule, this is it, folks.
People will decide, and they will reach a new equilibrium.
Just keep the dialogue open, and park your ego at the door.
AND, play your "O" til you reach higher consciousness, and serenity. |
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Location: Houston, Texas | Brad, you make some very valid points. Over the last month or so things have definitely moved a bit closer to chaos than I've ever seen it here. And that does tend to be self-perpetuating. However, the entertainment factor is something that makes this board sort of unique and I think we would all feel the loss if that disappeared. But I agree that things probably need to be toned down a bit.
Now if I could only get THE picture out of my head. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Brad, I like what you wrote...even if it is a little too PC for my basic nature.
..............................................
Or maybe the hockey analogy. (A Canadian, even one like me who doesn't follow hockey, can make hockey an analogy for everything.)
The moderators are the ref and line officials. It is their game to call, yours to play. Argue with, or touch the ref, you're ejected from the game.
If the ref doesn't see it, it's not a penalty. You can ask the ref, once, for a call on the play. Ask again and you might get a bench penalty.
Some hitting, spitting, and swearing is expected. But if it's caught on camera, you'll look stupid.
It's just a game.
It's the greatest game in the world.
The guy you punched in the heat of the game?
You owe him a beer. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | sHIRLEY yOU dIDn't EXpecT ANy sERIous REsPONseS. |
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Location: SoCal | Interesting that this could only go 11 posts before going off in an inane direction...... |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | I like the lyrics... have you put it to music yet?
Seriously, while it is entertaining to read through some of the OT stuff, it does tend to go on a bit too long. Maybe there should be a whole other section just for OT stuff - stick it under SELL/TRADE on the menu bar. When you look under the S/T header, you're pretty certain to come across posts about selling/buying/trading. The YouTube thread is a perfect example - even though it's only a single thread. You go there and you know what you're in for.
FWIW,
Mike |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | What JN said is what I would've said if I was better educated, and
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Interesting that this could only go 11 posts before going off in an inane direction...... It's now up to 15 replies and only one mention of guitars.
I've only been here for 16 months and only have 300 posts up my sleeve, and I think I'll ALWAYS be a newbie. I've gleaned a lot of information from other people, given information when I've known something, (rare, but hey...) and been thoroughly entertained by a lot of the off topic stuff.
I originally joined this board for information about my favourite possession, but now I find myself coming here for the entertainment value. I can't go somewhere else for that off topic banter as this board's got something that no other board has got, the OFC membership. What a bunch of silly, intelligent, welcoming, humble, arrogant and damn funny individuals. Oops, I left out GENEROUS.
And although I'm not a prude or PC, I can see the point about welcoming young children and females to the 'family' and I for one will in future endeavour to think more deeply about my choice of adjectives.
Bloody hard for an Australian, though! |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Wow! Life gets busy. I stay away for a while, and when I check back, Brad is posting a Manifesto? Brad you're not going Ova-bomber on us are you?
I am gonna have to start reading all the old threads to see what the hell happened. String tube accident resulting in a lawsuit maybe?
No serious injuries I hope! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Luv your heart, Brad.
That you took the time to write extensively to us, shows both, your commitment to this site and your expectation to be taken seriously as an active, concerned and might I add, cornerstone, member of this site which, is really the expression of a group of people who realize, the essence of this virtual community is made by people making REAL connections.
That being said..
I think the; "Don’t you think it sad that and executive at Kaman cannot have his female secretary scan the board for him?", is highly sexist?
Please, stop your assault on our female membership by relegating them to broad subordinate status... At least edit your Manifesto... As our female members may not be the same sort as we male members, but every bit, every bit*, our equals.
*(I was gonna say "every bit and more our equals," but I didn't want to offend the lesser bright of of our "species") |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Clever Brad, I had to go back and read slowly. That was your intention, right?
Re: final bracketed sentence.
Are you trying to infer that your president actually hangs here with us!?  |
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Location: GA USA | Gave me a thing or two to consider. Thanks for taking the time, Kid. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Brad, two words...
THANK YOU.
I will read it again, but I'd like your permission to incorporate it into a more complete "who we are" statement I've thought about for awhile. It will be credited to you as I think it holds more weight not coming from the founders.
I think one small addition to work into the house analogy is that inside the hosts house everything you ever said is laying out and will be laying out for everyone in the future to read and re-read.
Again, unlike the soapbox on the corner where once you say your piece it's forgotten, or at least no record... here, everything you say, positive and negative, every praise, every fowl word, will be here for years to come. There's nothing quite like that sinking feeling you get when someone qoutes something very uncomplimentary you said 7 or 8 years earlier in haste that had no validity 5 minutes after it was said... but here you are.. 8 years later, getting it thrown in your face. Trust me, it's not pretty.
Well again thanks for the thoughts and taking the obvious time it must have taken to compose. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Very thoughtful, Brad. You and Stonebobbo spend way too much time thinking. I'm glad that if somebody had to do it, it was you.
I have bought Ovations because of advice from this board, learned songs I gave up on 20 years ago because of help from this board, bought Ovations from this board, met up with a couple who happened to be in Boise, carried the Wooden Roundback to another board member and visited a few OFCers at their homes. Most importantly, this board is responsible for resurrecting my love for music that took a back seat to other things years ago. I have shared that love with my family and my 2 daughters now play guitar. All in less than 2 years since I found the OFC.
I didn't even mention the entertainment from reading what is often pure nonsense. I think it would be tough to find a website that has provided so much.
Now I need to stop. If I get as longwinded as Brad, he might catch me on the post count. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Uh, yeeah...(urp!) can someone pass me another Heineyken while this one plays out..?
Just kidding, Brad. As much as I'm as I'm probably as offensive as some and more than most, I would agree that sometimes all of us need to stand down and consider both our posts and our neighbors (including The Man) from time to time.
Good show. And I mean that sincerely. |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Mark - I didn't think about that aspect of it (long lost love of music) but that's the case with me as well. And like you, both of my sons are now playing the guitar - the older one has a show tomorrow at his highschool (all original songs) and the younger one is now a month into lessons and playing all the best parts of Layla, Crazy on You and Day Tripper.
And if I ever get the cajones up to sing I'll blame that on you guys too :eek: |
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Location: East Tennessee | Brad,
Thank You. I'm sure it took you a lot longer to write than it will any of us to read.
Miles or Al,
Could you put a sticky on this to keep it on top for a while?
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by Slipkid:
[QB1Moderators:
This board is moderated. They were those two guys that opened the door for you when you came in off the street. They gave you a sheet with the ground rules for the house. This board is moderated so don’t be surprised if you are at times, moderated. It’s not meant to be personal. It’s not an attack on your personal freedom of speech. It’s not a case for the Supreme Court. And it is certainly not an excuse to attack the moderator’s intelligence or way of life or accuse him of being a fascist nazi pig. 1
1 [/QB] I think I missed the post where I was called a facist nazi pig, but I have been called every other name in the book.
MOST not deserved. |
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Location: NW NJ | Thanks Brad. Really, Really! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Thank for the responce everyone.
It's late and I just got back from a fun open mic performance with BrianT.
I'll let this soak in and post more tommorrow.
Good night. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by alpep:
I think I missed the post where I was called a facist nazi pig, but I have been called every other name in the book.
I'm betting it was Jeff W ;) |
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Location: Waterloo, IL | I have found this house to be a very interesting place to come to for a visit. I have spent a lot more time sitting on the sidelines that I have taken an active part in many of the discussions. I come primarily for the Ovation/guitar/music related discussions. I have found some of the off-topic discussions to be amusing, but that is more of a sideline to the primary reason I come here. I agree that a separate room off to the side of the off-topic, humor related whatever would be good to have. I like the fact that I can come here and not have to be concerned about what I will be seeing, or worry that my wife might see something offensive.
I also want to thank Al and Miles for all that they have put into this board. I know they put a lot of time and effort into this board so that we can come here and learn, share, and have a good time helping others. Ovations are unique, as is this group. I like what is here and hope that it will continue to be a great place for all of us as well as any others that choose to join us here.
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Location: Yucaipa, California | Thanks Brad, I couldn't agree more. There seems to be a FratHouse tendency that has developed here over the past months that takes almost every posting to the gutter....(see the recent AKUS posting)...too bad. It's one reason I no longer post very often.... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by stephent28:
Originally posted by alpep:
I think I missed the post where I was called a facist nazi pig, but I have been called every other name in the book.
I'm betting it was Jeff W ;) |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Couldn't have said it better (or wordier) myself. Many thanks Brad, for your insightful post! :cool: |
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Location: SoCal | This is the only board I've ever actively participate in and I've been around since the early months. I doubt if there are more than 10 people with a 2 digit member number who are still active.
When you go back and read the old threads in the archives, it's pretty obvious that the board has changed over the last almost 5 years. In the early days, the discussions were primarily regarding Ovation guitars. We were learning from each other about the history of our guitars, and sharing ideas about where we wanted them to go.
But the board HAS changed, I would say primarily in the last 12-18 months. It's become more of a general discussion board talking about everything from music to world politics.
Is this good or is it bad? Part of the reason things have changed is that long time members took the time and opportunity to get to know each other, on the board and in person. I doubt that happens very often. I've made friends here that I hope will be my friends the rest of my life.
We have gotten casual with each other and it comes across on the board.
And I've watched newbies come on the board and wondered "what gives them the right to become so familiar with me so fast -- I don't know them and they're not part of the old group", only to discover that they were also people I was proud to know and call "friend".
I've had extreme kindness bestowed on me and I've been fortunate to be included in kindness to others.
But boards change over time. They have to. You can't rehash the same topics over and over again. We seem to have developed a frat house attitude. I've been part of it and have participated at times.
Maybe it is time to tone it down a bit. But the question does become, "where do we go from here, and how do we get there"?
Oh, and one other observation.... Brad, who to me is still a "newbie" is the personification of what's good about this board. He's gone over and above with 2 calenders, the OFC award, and is always posting positive things and making contributions. He comes to the OFC gatherings and participates. If he's still a newbie to me, well, he is one that I'm pround to call friend. Thank you Brad. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Thanks Paul,
But like the Manifesto says, "Take step back", and you'll see that the calendar and all the other things are a true team effort.
Your observations about the growth and change of the board is right on.
I certainly don't want the board to loose it's entertainment value. But when a longtime member like Mr. Chapman says "That's why I don't post much anymore", that has to say something. |
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Location: closely held secret | I've been without power since yesterday evening, so I just got through reading this thread.
Very well done, Bradley. You've eloquently expressed much of what I've been feeling lately, as did Paul. I've come to know a lot of members here, met many of them in person, and hope I can call them friends. I came here out of curiosity and stayed because I saw (and still see) some amazing, compassionate things being done by people for people they've never actually met (D'zilla, you're currently at the top of that list!).
Let's not lose what makes this house special. No one's mandating PC rules - all it really takes is a little forethought and self-control.
Originally posted by Slipkid:
But when a longtime member like Mr. Chapman says "That's why I don't post much anymore", that has to say something. May I point out that Mr. Chapman also plays a banjo and wears a tinfoil hat. |
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Location: NJ | There's a Shark up ahead . . .
I, for one prefer NOT to jump over it. |
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Location: Yucaipa, California | ....ok, that does it! Talk about reaching an all time low! When I'm used as a litmus test for anything (except delusional behaviour)...sheesh! Whadda place!
I did, however, read that the REAL reason for the "roundback" was to allow guitarists to use their guitars as parabolic deflectors...they focus and reflect the Government Rays back to the source. That and the "Hat" and you should be back to normal quite soon....just like me. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Originally posted by cliff:
There's a Shark up ahead . . .
I, for one prefer NOT to jump over it. That is the whole manifesto in a nut-shell. |
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Location: NJ | That's not really what I meant, but . . . .
. . . okay. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | This has all been very warm and cathartic. (That's a good thing!)
A little group chew on a tough thing, a little airing dirty laundry, a little kiss and make up.
MUCH better than thunderous edicts from on high.
There's a hockey analogy in here somewhere, but Brads beautiful monograph has much better legs...
(and THAT's called, a straight line!) |
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Location: closely held secret | Ah, go on, Cliff. Tip it over. It'll be alright on the other side. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Originally posted by cliff:
That's not really what I meant, but . . . .
. . . okay. Cliff,
If I was 180 degrees off on that, I'd like to hear more. |
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Location: CT | Originally posted by cliff:
There's a Shark up ahead . . .
I, for one prefer NOT to jump over it. "Jumping the Shark." Show biz lingo referring to Fonzie's water-ski jump over the shark pen. Meaning this show is headed for the toilet, just like Happy Days did shortly afterwards.
Excellent manifesto, thanks for taking the time. I think it was due. |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, | Brad,
Very nicely done. I have a feeling the OFC Member of The Year award is going to wind up back in Michigan for 2007. Place the order for the name plaque now ;) :cool: |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Phil shouldn't you have that in your sig?? |
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| Very nicely written, Brad.
But all the time I was reading it I could see a man in a grass skirt and a coconut bra writing it.........
See you in Ct my friend. |
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Location: Tennessee | Too bad this is the internet. Your treastise, Brad, is worthy of nailing to the door. |
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Location: south east Michigan | But all the time I was reading it I could see a man in a grass skirt and a coconut bra writing it......... :D
See you in Ct my friend.
:D :D :D |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Brad--
"Thank you" hardly seems adequate to express how much I appreciate the time and thought that went into the "Manifesto." There have been a few times when I wondered whether or not to keep reading the board, and it was because of the kinds of things you mentioned. But, my love for my Ovations runs deep, and this is the only place I know of to glean helpful information regarding them--and as an added bonus, to touch base with a bunch of wonderful people, too.
Still here, Karen |
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Location: Parrish, FL | Karen,
Thanks for suffering us fools and sticking around.
Brad |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, | DVD and Brad
I put the title in my signature along with someting else. I'm not very comfortable with titles. When someone calls me Mr. Wong I think they are looking for my father. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom:
There have been a few times when I wondered whether or not to keep reading the board, and it was because of the kinds of things you mentioned....
...Still here, Karen .
Good to see you're still here, Karen. I've promised myself to think more carefully about what I write here in future.
BTW, if you were Australian, your nickname would be Kaz or Kazza. |
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Location: Flushing, MI | I, for one, am madder'n hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.......
Just kiddin', just kiddin'....
Slipkid Manifesto eh??? Sounds like a song...
Do ya get the impression that I never quite finish what I start out to say........... |
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Location: GA USA | Then put it to music and submit it on the next CD, trag. |
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Location: big island | "Slipkid Manifesto eh??? Sounds like a song..."
to me, "Slipkid Manifesto" sounds like the rumblings of a new, worldwide, underground philosophical movement...and perhaps something that homeland security should investigate. ;) |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Brad, let me hasten to add my thanks. It's good to remember 'our story' of how we got here and who and what made it possible.
I remember hearing that this was coming for quite a while before it happened, and being lucky enough to get invited at the start. It took a while before I became active. I am one of those two-digit folks who are still around, and the reasons have changed (and I've never been part of any 'clique' of which I'm aware, other than The Thread-Killers).
A lot of questions I had about Ovations have been answered. I know where to go as new ones come up. I usually read posts by new members to see if I can be welcoming and/or helpful, as is true for many of us.
I also read posts where I see the user names of members who have become 'cyberfriends' over the years. I have learned from them, and have also come to appreciate their, um ..... 'unique'.... contributions. These days, my time here is more for entertainment than education, but I do learn something new every week.
Well, I'm already too long and boring, but I'll risk your yawns for a few seconds more. If you want to post something that may be religiously or politically offensive on this board and have no uncommon sense of restraint, start your own thread and make it clear from the get-go so others can ignore it. The moderators can pull it if it really doesn't belong here, or it can die the death of non-response. That can also be true for extant threads that someone screws up. Fire goes out when wood and oxygen are no longer supplied.
Thanks, again, Brad! And a blessed holiday season and new year to all. Let's put the kwan back into kwanzaa!! :D (If you didn't see 'Jerry McGuire, fuggedabodit.) |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | Thank you Brad.
Yesterday, after seeing Rosie and Donald and all the latest sex scandals on Fox (my laptop's homepage), I shot Fox an email. I let them know that I was looking for REAL news. If I wanted this crap I'd go to the grocery store and pick up the Enquirer!
Sortof how I've felt about the OFC of late. As I've posted guitar-related matters I've actually thought to myself "Is anyone gonna be interested in this?"
Another thought as I was reading your post:
We are all students AND teachers. As a pastor (and someone who's been around the block a million times) I have to remember that - no matter how "old" a thing seems to me - it's new to someone else who's hearing me say it. So those of us who have been here and done that have a responsability to others to impart this stuff. I want to be patient and willing to impart the info a relative newbie asks for.
The alternative is all us old-timers will die off with our Ovations and all the young folks with their Taylors will take over!
John <>{ |
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Location: south east Michigan | Thanks for the responces everyone.
And I hope everyone does not take this as a call for the OFC to loose it's edge. It just seemed that the board had taken on some different qualities as of late and it looks like I'm not the only one. I'm not trying to advocate a state of Politically Correct Nervona. After all, I am the one who wore the cocoanut bra. (And by golly if I'm called upon again to serve.... I will!) I just wanted to put a reminder out there that sometimes ya gotta "dance with what brung ya".
Merry Christmas everyone! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | We're entering our 5th year. People come and people go. A lot of the first active wave of participants don't hang around much anymore. I know a few of them who read but don't take the time to post anymore. That's cool. New folks come and seem to have all the energy and take off like rockets. That's cool too. Seems to me that it runs in about 12 month cycles. In a year a whole new crop of bees will be swarming the hive. Old farts like me and my schitzoprenic half-lover Standingovation with some 6500 posts are feeling flat worn-out. Anything of value that I(we)'ve got to contribute has already been delivered. So we hang around, pick on the underclassmen, chime in with a little factoid here and there and basically fill our days with lots of off-topic banter. Having once been a very active poster, to not post now would be a show of disinterest. So that's why I (and maybe other old farts kicking around the 5k club) don't seem so focused anymore. It's just natural. And Brad, You ain't seen NOTHING until you see what I dress you up in THIS year, you little tour-bitch. Here's to hoping everyone has a big fat happy holiday with with a GIANT CAPITAL X.
Dave |
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Location: ranson,wva | dave,you truly have a way with words..jason |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I just came out of the shower and the only way to get it out of my head is to give it to you!
The Slipkid Manifesto
To the tune of “Won’t Back Down”
V1
Well I been hang’in round Listen’in to you clowns
You’re talk’in bout Llamas and your scaring all the Mamas
Just to lift your post count
Just to lift that post count
V2
The board’s a Real Neat Place We like to meet Face-toFace
But when you talk about your bowels Then I’m throw’in in the Towel
And I won’t back down
I’m going to stand my ground
(light lead riff takes the Verse Line)
V3
I know I’ve had my thrills The Fishsticks were overkill
And though my pictures plastered all over this town
I won’t back down
I wanna stand my ground
Chorus
He-e-e-e-e-y Baby, did you read that post first
Ya-a-a-a-a-h maybe you better change some words
And I won’t back down
I wanna stand my ground
I wanna stick around
Ya, I won’t back down
V4
When someone says “Amen” You ought to call them friend
And if you want to fight about it Don’t stay in here and shout about it
Drop them a P M
Don’t make me say it again
And I won’t back down
I wanna stand my ground
Chorus
No he won’t back down…
No he won’t back down… fade |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | David, you're being a bit humble here. Towit: 2 OFC music productions.
"Anything of value that I(we)'ve got to contribute has already been delivered."
I think not. Thank you deeply for your continuing investment & dedication in this fellowship. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Dave you have given this place a lot.
You still have a lot more to give. The challenge is in how to keep moving forward. Encouraging us to record is a great contribution. |
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Location: Vermont USA | Dave do you own a dog when he sniffs you does he go in the back yard and start digging a hole? It's ok to be an old fart as long as you don't smell like one.
Pauly |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Paulcc1:
... It's ok to be an old fart as long as you don't smell like one...
Pauly THAT's a good one. I've always wanted a dog but I was never quite sure of something... Do they automatically sniff you or do you have to TRAIN them to do that?
Actually the wife and I are now empty nesters (except for 2 cats, and about 3 dozen guitars and ukuleles). We've talked about getting a dog. Unfortunately we are at opposite ends of the dog sprectrum. I've got a vision of a "man's" dog, ya know someone who will go jogging with me, camping buddy, play ball, etc. Maybe a Lab or Retriever. My wife's idea of a dog is a little Yorkie-thingy that you carry around in a pocketbook, put bows in it's hair and put under the seat on the plane when you travel. I'm having a hard time warming up to that idea.
Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | Oh Woody ya shouldn't have.
I mean really..... ya shouldn't have.
Looks like I'll have to look up the chords. :D |
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Location: closely held secret | Nice job, Woodford. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Am G C
C G F
Am G F
Am G C |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by Tupperware:
[QB] we are at opposite ends of the dog sprectrum. Get one of each. 'Your' dog might need a snack one day. |
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Location: Vermont USA | Lab or Retriever both are good dogs great for when grandchildren come over.
BTW you do not have to train a dog to sniff you they are on auto pilot when it comes to that
Pauly |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | i guess i am one of the first wave guys that has a hard time keeping up with cyberspace these days. the real world just keeps pounding the door down. i really feel i have a lot of amigos here i wouldn't have if i hadn't been part of the first wave. no matter how much i participate here these days what i have gained from this site in knowledge, friendship and allot of laughs is something that goes far beyond what is posted here.
it is a grear site regardless of the result of having so many members. kind of reminds me of life.
russ |
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Location: Massachusetts | I'm new to this forum, but I've been on other music forums, and I have to say that I'm pleased with the discussions here, I'm currently making an attempt to restore my old model 1112-2, and I'm confident that if I have any questions about it, or helpful hints that I'm able to contribute to someone else it will be a comfortable experience. Glad I found you guys. |
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Location: NJ | StickAround.
Don't be a stranger . . . |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | We've calmed down quite a bit from the events that led to the legendary (and classic) prose known as "The Slipkid Manifesto." (Now available in paperback from Harcourt/Brace/Janovich)
I think it was all the sugar around Christmastime... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Like my grand daddy used to say... wait long enough and it'll all pass. I wished he'd been right about that burning sensation I once had.
Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | This morning I revisted the "Manifesto" and the responces and came away with couple thoughts.
First, I kinda cringe when it's brought up as some sort of strick new by-laws to be adhered to. I did not intend it that way.
Second, I realize that it was written during a time when there was a lot of turmoil and unrest on the board. Kinda like a "Perfect Storm" type of thing. Now that things are quieter, parts of it seem a little over the top and unnessesary. But perhaps the next time things get a little weird around here those things will again apply.
More importantly, I'd like to highlite a few of the responces that enhance what I was trying to say.
seesquare wrote: People will decide, and they will reach a new equilibrium.
Just keep the dialogue open.
fillhix had a great hockey analogy: ..Some hitting, spitting, and swearing is expected. But if it's caught on camera, you'll look stupid.
AND...A little group chew on a tough thing, a little airing dirty laundry, a little kiss and make up.
MUCH better than thunderous edicts from on high.
JeffW said: ...is really the expression of a group of people who realize, the essence of this virtual community is made by people making REAL connections.
Wabbit said: Let's not lose what makes this house special. No one's mandating PC rules - all it really takes is a little forethought and self-control.
Dave said: So that's why I (and maybe other old farts kicking around the 5k club) don't seem so focused anymore. It's just natural. And the beat goes on...... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I drove past a Llama Farm the other day and realized that I have endured extreme mental duress and may require expensive therapy and suffer lifelong trauma.
Then I remembered that any attempt at declaring culpable deniability was eradicated by the permanance of the Internet Archives.
Dang, guess I'll just have to get over it and learn to play my guitar more better.
As I reference the "Manifesto" I do it in jest, Brad. We reached a peak of something and you touched on that which we knew was right.
I still like the Tom Petty song... |
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Location: NJ | ". . I drove past a Llama Farm the other day and realized that I have endured extreme mental duress . ."
That's funny, cause I get the same feeling now whenever I see wood veneer . . . |
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Location: Upper Left USA | So are we talking Class Action...? |
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Location: closely held secret | Probably not. I think "Class" is a prerequisite. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I just re-read it, and it's still valid. It should probably have been written earlier, but instead the thoughts of the entire manifesto were summed up into our original guideline... "Be Kind To Each Other".
Thanks for expanding on it. It's nice to know so many people actually do "get it." |
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| So we don't want "Classless Action" ?
Man that's not going to be easy. |
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| How is it kind to sell guitars to "friends" for over inflated prices and give crappy service in the process of it all...and then to bann another dealer for offering to sell the same guitars at a better price and to actually be nice about it? So, it is only being nice to one another when it protects the business of one of the moderators who makes his living selling seconds and over pricing guitars to a captive audience...and if someone comes along and points this out, then we blast HIM as the problem and bann him from this open board. Hmmmm....
As the US Attorney has put it in investgating this matter, it is restraint of trade based on a false claim made by Miles and Al. They claim it is an open board, free to the public, anyone can post or sell...the part that is NOT stated up front for all to see is that if you DO post in direct competition to Al, then you will be threatened and if that does not work, you will be banned. That is covered under US Code Title 15, chapter 2. Al and Miles will look good in Fed Prison Tans.
And by the way. Tony. as dealers we do NOT get to order which cases come with which guitars, they are sold as a package. If we order the guitar and the case seperate, it does NOT save money, it COST US MORE MONEY. The only guitar from Ovation that does not come with a case is an FRG, then the inside sales people normally will spec an 8158. Nice try to discredit a dealer, Tony. Oh, how much money have you "loaned" Al to help him place the orders for all these custom guitars? When a dealer has NO open credit line and has to provide a cashiers check with any order, someone has to be fronting him the money. I know, some of it is from the "deposits" he insists he must have from everyone, but not all of it.
If anyone is REALLY intersted in the state of the ofc/lost arts vintage (make no mistakes, they are one and the same), look no further than the lies told by the founders, and the self righteous, power freak god-complex exhibited by Miles. |
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Location: SoCal | He's BBBAAAACCCCCKKKKK! And needs to adjust his meds.
The term "obsessive" comes to mind. Paranoid, as well. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Here we go again... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I am so tired of crap like this.
And don't bother with the email campaign.
Give me a "C"! |
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Location: SoCal | C.... |
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Location: Upper Left USA | L
I
C
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by RoundBackSeller:
Al and Miles will look good in Fed Prison Tans.
gregory
you know tan is not my color, try mauve. |
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Location: NJ | f*cktard.
(sorry,Brad) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Tupperware:
Like my grand daddy used to say... wait long enough and it'll all pass. And just like herpes, it always comes back ...
Dave |
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Location: SoCal | Gregory's got to be a Democrat. He thinks we're all stupid, can't make decisions for ourselves, and he, like the federal government, can save us all. He just can't understand why we're all too dumb to see that he's here to help.
Again, obsessive and paranoid......
(anybody like the way I got my political statement in????) |
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Location: NJ | moody
NO POLITICS |
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Location: Houston, Texas | Thanks for the email Greg, but no we don't need to talk. Postings like the one above, not to mention your previous actions on this board have made it perfectly clear that you are not the type of person that I want anything to do with.
Please don't email me again. |
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Location: closely held secret | {nice one, Moody!}  |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Speaking of guitars, the Mahogany Viper I ressurected was a former "Property of the State of Arkansas Corrections Institute" according to the tag.
A lot of good music has come out of prisons. |
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Location: SoCal | "I hear that train a-comin, it's comin' round the bend....." |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Sure, Moody can't give us Political views but Witko can dish out medical advice?
We need to hear more from the State of California on the appropriate selection of Leadership!
Let's go back to Talk like a Pirate Day! |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Originally posted by MWoody:
Sure, Moody can't give us Political views but Witko can dish out medical advice? See what you mean, Mike, 'cause they're worth about the same... ;) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Hey, for what it's worth Moody don't know crap about politics. But I know a LOT about herpes.
Dave |
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Location: Upper Left USA | She had an infectious smile! :) |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | As this is NOT "open board, free to the public" it is a PRIVATE board in which people who "AGREE TO CERTAIN TERMS AND CONDITIONS" may use. Gregory is NOT welcome here because he was rude, insulting and threatening to me, and to my friends. He is not welcome no matter what name he chooses to use. |
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Location: SoCal | Ditto and Amen. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | P
R
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Location: Hiram, Georgia | It's like the guy who tresspasses over to his neighbors koi pond to go bowfishing, and then he thinks he's a great hunter/fisherman?...
Get a LIFE in the real world!!! |
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Location: big island | this thread is good for rubberneckers. like a little excitement from seeing an accident on the highway where you hope nobody got hurt but ya just gotta look anyway. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Most excitement we've had around these parts in weeks... |
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Location: NJ | So . . . .
. . . .
. . . whaddayou guys wanna do NOW?? . . . |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Go see your soup D'jour on the other post, Clifford.... |
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Location: SoCal | And by the way. Tony. as dealers we do NOT get to order which cases come with which guitars, they are sold as a package. If we order the guitar and the case seperate, it does NOT save money, it COST US MORE MONEY. The only guitar from Ovation that does not come with a case is an FRG, then the inside sales people normally will spec an 8158. Nice try to discredit a dealer, Tony. Oh, how much money have you "loaned" Al to help him place the orders for all these custom guitars? When a dealer has NO open credit line and has to provide a cashiers check with any order, someone has to be fronting him the money. I know, some of it is from the "deposits" he insists he must have from everyone, but not all of it. My, oh my, what a dubious honor to be singled out. No, I have no relationship with Al or his company other than being a WILLING BUYER plus two trades and as a FRIEND.
The poster is so loose in making unfounded claims concerning slander, maybe he should read what he writes before hitting send...course, the word is libel as it involves publishing of a falsehood that harms someone. Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word.
As to the cases, if he was referring to my comments about the 47RI that I got in the 8158-0...in a phone conversation with the owner of the guitar store, he specifically said he didn't have a 9158-0 in the store (or inventory) and that he has all of his Ovations and Adamas ship from the factory in a 8158-0. I accepted his explanation, different business model that I was used to, and only made my comments to make OFC'ers aware of the fact. I did notice that the seller now doesn't list "deluxe" in the included case description.
As the US Attorney has put it in investgating this matter, it is restraint of trade based on a false claim made by Miles and Al. Interesting, as most US Attorneys will not discuss any investigation WITH ANYONE.
Afraid this poster has merely reinforced my opinion of him.
As an aside...I have always gotten a fair price and excellent service from my Ovation/Adamas/Hamer dealer. Thanks Al. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | RE:
". . . whaddayou guys wanna do NOW?? . . ."
Leave work and play my guitar. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Assumptions????
Guilty until proven innocent???
I normally don't comment on this stuff but even tho the inferences look damning, it seems that every time some comments get posted along this subject, Greg automatically get the blame.
and now it's my turn to CLICK!
(and Al...I LOVED your reponse to the poster!...very classy very cool!) |
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Location: south east Michigan | Dear RoundBackSeller....
Please read the very first post in this thread.
Pay close attention to the part near the end which says...,
"If you're not getting what you need at the OFC... please walk away. It would be better for everybody." |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Nice to see we're over 5300 members!
and never had a fight!
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Stephen, don't get confused.
It's like "ketchup" or "kleenex". Nobody said this is the Gregory. The name is used as a generic term to describe any new member who registers and in his very first post lets loose with long diatribes of malicious statements and accusations against the founders of this site. It's a generic name used to describe a person who is hellbent on destroying the OFC as we know it. A general descriptor of someone who is so furious by rejection that the only solice they can find is to ruin it for everyone else. It's not anyone in particular, just a tag name for a general way of presenting ones self.
Dave |
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Location: Hiram, Georgia | Greg who? :rolleyes: |
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Location: NJ | It's like the term:
Don't be a "Dick".
This one is:
Don't be a "Gregory". |
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Location: big island | poor Dick Gregory. |
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Location: SoCal | Stephen,
Re-read the post that addressed me...either Bobby or Gregory. Now, in all seriousness, which one of the two do you think he is?
Frankly, I believe it is the reverse...accusations have been made by the "poster" and/or his family or "independent affiliated representative" that were immediately considered factual or, at least, given some measure of fact.
Think about it, how would you feel if someone was posting on an international forum about how terrible your business practices were and that you only advised products with high commissions? The offending individuals should extend genuine appologies or just go away.
I have seen most, if not all, of the emails. I have heard justifications for the horrible accusations. I continue to value my dealer.
Stephen, I am not including you in the above paragraphs. Nor am I including several OFC'ers of which I have had a number of conversations with.
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To reiterate, based on the price that I paid and the service received, I have no qualms about the eBay purchase of the 47RI from Brother Bobby. I just was surprised when I got a case that isn't listed as coming with the guitar on the OvationGuitar.com website. He saves a couple of bucks by getting the 8158, sells his guitars for a competitive price, etc. I'm not a dealer - but if I was, I would have a different business model. If I was to buy from his store (i.e., Martin), I would ask which case it came with. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | 
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Guys, lets not get off track into the rhealm of stooping to others levels. And I mean it. This thread is about Slipkid's original post, and it should stay in that general direction lest we be guilty of what we accuse others of being.
Trolls should be treated as such, and they will just go away. By troll, I mean the internet definition of which is just someone that posts on websites for turmoil they create. If no one responded, there would be no turmoil. Resist the urge if at all possible. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Tuppy, Cliff.....I stand corrected and the grasshopper kneels before the masters.
Tony, I never said I agreed with any of the post. IMHO it should have never been written. I only responded because several members associated the post with a "name". The majority did not which is the way I would have addressed it. |
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Location: Houston, Texas | Originally posted by stephent28:
I only responded because several members associated the post with a "name". The majority did not which is the way I would have addressed it. Except that I received an email from this person using the same user-id in his email address. Interesting that he didn't sign the email with his actual name, but in my case, there's absolutely no one else it could be. He did leave his phone number and I will PM it to you if you want to verify. |
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Location: closely held secret | Please understand that like Stephen, I'm not taking sides in this, but two things make me wonder. These aren't attacks, just simple questions.
Rick, I could open an anonymous email account and send Moody an email with your phone number. Exactly what does that prove?
Tony, why would Gregory give a rats arse what kind of case you received with your #47? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Why some people just can't leave a subject alone is beyond me. |
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Location: SoCal | I responded to absurd false accusations by the poster...especially as there are OFC'ers who would read it and wonder. Beyond that, this isn't worth the time. There has been no rhyme or reason to the OFC posting or late night emails with libelous charges, threats, etc.
Right now, I really don't care if it was the individual in question or someone else...whoever it is should be removed from the forum with no ability to sign on with another name.
Maybe it is time to have a legitimate screening when someone registers.
I think it is time to move on... |
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Location: south east Michigan | I think it is time to move on...
Yes...please..
I don't think I have another Manifesto in me right now. |
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| D'ya think he wudda posted like that on the Smith & Wesson board? |
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Location: south east Michigan | Originally posted by schroeder:
D'ya think he wudda.... Oh no!! :eek:
Even someome born & breed to speak the Queen's English can be corrupted to use.... CLIFF-SPEAK!!! |
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| I was just trying to make it easier for those who don't have English as a first language. |
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Location: SoCal | And Clifford thanks you for that....... |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | When this post was first presented, it was Brad's expression of resolving some egg throwing on the board. It served it's purpose during the "perfect storm". Personally I think that leaving it on, at the top of the posts, doesn't serve any positive purpose. It only invites posts like the tit for tat, that we're seeing.
Imagine a new Ovation owner, elated with his first Ovation, searching the web, finds us, and reads through pages of this post. Nice impression heh. I think its time to let this topic die a natural death. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | second that... |
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Location: NJ | Brad!!
Tommy's talking about tits again!!!! . . . .
(and tats) |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | Amazing how quick Cliff, can milk a little humor out of a post. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Yeah... Tommy has a point there.
IMO, the thread has served it's purpose. In fact, I'm amazed how "top of mind" the manifesto has become. I never thought it would have that effect. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Though, perhaps...the post that started this off-topic fun and those following could be split into another thread. Then we could ignore THAT one..or it could be closed?
Just 'cos I think the Slipkid manifesto is a good touchstone for us all. (sometimes me especially) That and the your blues name-generator bit which needs to be handy whenever a newby wants to find his/her/its true name.... :cool: |
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Location: Upper Left USA | The Slipkid Manifesto was to me, the kindly direct advice from a friend when you need it.
Let it go. Reference it when needed.
The Blues name post needs to be extracted and pinned. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Woody...2nd that. I never use it cause mine sucks eggs but I enjoy seeing it attached to others. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I have unfeatured... er de-featured.... unstuck... whatever... the topic, but will extract the first post and place it somewhere appropriate on the site.
Actually I'd love to use it on other sites or as the forward to a book on web development or something.. with all credits accordingly. One of the most insightful reads online in a long time, I'd like it not to disappear completely. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Unpinned I believe.
It is likely to be featured in the mini-series or the movie on the OFC... |
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The current state of the OFC / The Slipkid Manifesto