contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?
alpep
Posted 2007-01-08 4:45 PM (#121310)
Subject: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
I have been thinking about this lately. I really like the contour bowl, but I am not so sure I want to see it on the entire line and the imports. In fact I would prefer that it was limited to only the upper level of the USA Ovation and Adamas guitars.

What are your thoughts? I think that the contour bowl is more comfortable and sounds great but I am not so sure I want to see it on all the line. Much like you would not expect a 5.0 liter in a ford focus.

IMHO I always thought that some things should remain features only avaiable on upper end instruments. Since the bowl is so integral to the Ovation design and sound I would understand why they would want to put it on all the instruments but then where is the mystery? where is the stuff you long for in the catalog and lust after because it is only affordable and obtainable to the few who can get it?

Did I hit the mark here or am I off the mark? what do you think?
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cliff
Posted 2007-01-08 4:54 PM (#121311 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: NJ
I'm with you, Al.

As great as the ContourBowls are, I think they should be some type of "upgrade".

I hope the ContourBowl doesn't become the NEW "epaulets" . . .
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Jason_S
Posted 2007-01-08 5:00 PM (#121312 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: ranson,wva
i played mike's at your place when i picked up the adamas. it was comfortable but...it just didnt have the same feel that im used to. im with you's guy's. make it available on the high end line but also still be able to the the traditional roundback...jason
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Slipkid
Posted 2007-01-08 5:01 PM (#121313 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: south east Michigan
Al, I like your thinking and I'm with you.
However, you just can't keep a good idea down forever. Before Ovation had to fight both the "plastic back" and the "slip off the lap" syndrome. The contour back will take of the second issue.
I think the contour back will eventually catch on with the Guitar Center type people and they will push for them. But GC will want them on the lower end models because that is where their Ovation market is.

signed.... Deep Bowl Brad
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Tupperware
Posted 2007-01-08 5:06 PM (#121314 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: Phoenix AZ
No secret that I am a huge contour bowl fan. But I also know a little bit about branding and product differentiation. I was going to say "marketing" but you would have made fun of me.

IF IT WERE UP TO ME ... I would use the bowl as a differentiating factor of USA vs. Import. USA Ovation/Adamas get Contour Bowls and imports get Roundback Bowls.

Ovation has tendency to try to "blur the lines" with things such as Celebrity "Bowl manufactured in USA" and the recent Ultra "Assembled in USA".

Dave
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mtnbikerfred
Posted 2007-01-08 5:07 PM (#121315 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: Orange County, California
Save it for the Custom LX, & certain Adamas models and/or make it an Optional Upgrade on the other USA Models. The sooner it goes to the Celeb line, the sooner we'll see foreign knock-offs, and if you thought the patent for a composite "round-back" was hard to defend now, wait till they find out all they have to do is dent the middle in a little...
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Jeff W.
Posted 2007-01-08 5:22 PM (#121316 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub
I am a Roundback fan. My Roundbacks are far and away the most comfortable to hold and play. I have nothing against the CB, but it would not be my first choice. As an option on "High End" model, fine by me... as standard on certain high end models, fine... I certainly don't want a Contour bowl 12 string Ute, however...
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MWoody
Posted 2007-01-08 5:32 PM (#121317 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: Upper Left USA
I'm with Dave. a line of separation needs to be made.

I have also found a way to "tip" my contour the way I like it - like the roundbacks!
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schroeder
Posted 2007-01-08 5:34 PM (#121318 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 4413

I don't like contour bowls, I like roundbacks. The medium bowl is (to me) the most comfortable, easy to play guitar body ever designed. I also love my shallow bowl, and I may have mentioned before I quite like the ute and its deep bowl.

If they actually ever do put the contour bowl on all the American models, then I'll be buying used from then on.
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Jeff W.
Posted 2007-01-08 5:38 PM (#121319 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Originally posted by schroeder:
I'll be buying used from then on.
I'm so glad you didn't say, "selling"
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Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1
Posted 2007-01-08 5:43 PM (#121320 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 1017

Location: Budd Lake, NJ
I agree that the contour bowl should be upper end of the line, too--there should be something that's reserved for those made here. If my shoulder were up to playing a deep bowl, though, that's what I'd order--very time. No mid-depth, no contour--for me, it's the deep-bowled ones that really say "Ovation" to me, not the others. The others don't evoke that "Oh, wow....." reaction nearly as much. (Of course, Gertrude is to blame for all this deep-bowl preference on my part.........)

--Karen
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45flint
Posted 2007-01-08 6:00 PM (#121321 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 555

Location: Wooster, Ohio
Is the Contour Bowl patented, it doesn't say that it is on the Ovation site? Does the contour bowl cost more to produce? I would doubt that it does. I think that the market will dictate where the bowl is used. Unless there is a cost factor I don't see how in the long run you will keep this feature only on high end instruments. If it is looked at as a positive and the cost is the same it will work its way down the food chain. Bear claw tops, abalone inlays etc, cost more and will not move down the chain.
Steve
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2007-01-08 6:00 PM (#121322 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: SoCal
I hate it when I agree with Dave but he's right. The contour bowl should be a point of differentiation, not just something that goes on everything. And it should NEVER go on a foreign built Ovation. It should be premium in nature.

Now, having said that, I'm not a fan of the contour bowl. I like the mid depth and deep bowls. But then I'm an old fart and I'm not the one Ovation is marketing their guitars to......
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Beal
Posted 2007-01-08 6:13 PM (#121323 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: 6 String Ranch
Tough call, I think that everybody's right. How's that?
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Waskel
Posted 2007-01-08 6:15 PM (#121324 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: closely held secret
I want to know what they did with the parlor bowl molds.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2007-01-08 6:47 PM (#121325 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
I have a 2005-ES, plus several round profile mid-bowl guitars. My vote would be to leave the contour bowl available on the Legend and above (it's already there anyway). But not on the Balladeer and certainly not on the Celebs and Applause. There has to be SOME differentiation for the premium U.S. models.

Maybe a different shallow-bowl version contour for Celebs, exclusively. And then DON'T put that on the U.S. models.

Roger
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colt357
Posted 2007-01-08 7:29 PM (#121326 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Originally posted by cwk2:
Tough call, I think that everybody's right. How's that?
How's that? I believe that is a grand display of diplomacy. Nice touch!

Dave
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John B
Posted 2007-01-08 7:53 PM (#121327 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey
I'm with Al and Dave on this. The contour bowl should be a "higher end" feature, however, I also believe that the traditional bowls should be available for the high end models as well. I don't think Ovation would want to discourage fans of the roundbacks from buying high end models. Lets face it though, if the contour bowl becomes very popular, they'll start slapping them on $300.00 Celebs in no time. Other companies do the same thing as Ovation with respect to "blurring the line" between the high end and entry level stuff. Look at the Fender Stratocaster for instance. You can get a "Squire" model, a Mexican made model, and a USA model. To the untrained eye, it's hard to tell the difference between them. These companies make a lot of money selling cheap imitations of their "real" stuff, and who can blame them? If they don't do it, someone else will. It sucks, but that's how it is.
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alpep
Posted 2007-01-08 8:11 PM (#121328 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Location: NJ
Just a point of claification. I am in no way advocating getting away from the Traditional bowl. I like it, in fact I even told my sales rep, they need to make some more shallow bowls that sound good acoustically so they can sell some of those guitar. I am postitive it can be done you just need the right combination of design and engineering.

I know that the sales reps are probably screaming for the factory to build EVERYTHING with the contour bowl so that they can walk into stores and demonstrate how they no long slip off your lap etc. BUT there is always room for tradition (would you mess with a D 28? hell no!!!)

As usual, I refer to the lost loves in my life and how I think about the unobtainable ones more often than the others. So the point is if you can get something at every price point, why bother with an upper level.

I was hoping this thread would spark some interesting discussion and it has. My ulterior motive is that knowing the boys in bloomfield read us that maybe it will help spark some discussion pertianing to how "the great unwashed" think about this topic.

I worked with a guy that bought a jag. The first thing he did was take off the wire riims and put on some goofy ugly aftermarket wheels that looked like they belonged on some high school kids' acura hot rod. Totally took a classic look and make it ugly. I still want the wire wheels on my guitar, and keep the aftermarket rims for the imports.
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Beal
Posted 2007-01-08 8:19 PM (#121329 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: 6 String Ranch
Al, the wire rims would look good on your truck.
Can you get them from this guy?
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Stevechapman
Posted 2007-01-08 8:41 PM (#121330 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Location: Fayetteville, NC
Just offer the Contour Bowl as an option on higher end USA Ovations and teh adamas line, however if someone bought lets say a Legend and wanted the contour bowl on it simply pay for teh upgrade..ala special order. Don't phase out teh tradional roundback. too many people still like them.
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Slipkid
Posted 2007-01-08 9:03 PM (#121331 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



Joined:
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Location: south east Michigan
Anyone else remember when "cruise control" was only available on high end, luxury cars???
Maybe I'm just being cynical tonight but I gotta think the contour bowl will be more market and profit driven than by any sense of tradition or country of origin.
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2007-01-08 9:09 PM (#121332 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



Joined:
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Aren't we getting just alittle Elitist here?
Some folks buy what they can afford... Does that make them less of an aficionado (dedicated fanatic)?

[Gee, how can I hide my name when I post this?]
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CrimsonLake
Posted 2007-01-08 9:19 PM (#121333 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145

Location: Marlton, NJ
I agree with Brad. If the contour bowl is going to help them sell more guitars than that's what they'll do. I also agree that there is a place for all of the different bowl types. I happen to like both the deep bowl and the contour bowl. I sold my shallow bowls to people who prefer (or need) those.
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worshipleader
Posted 2007-01-08 9:58 PM (#121334 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 580

Location: NW NJ
Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Aren't we getting just alittle Elitist here?
Some folks buy what they can afford... Does that make them less of an aficionado (dedicated fanatic)?
I dunno, I kinda like my Elites ... and my attitude :D
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worshipleader
Posted 2007-01-08 10:04 PM (#121335 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 580

Location: NW NJ
Originally posted by MWoody:
I'm with Dave. a line of separation needs to be made.

I have also found a way to "tip" my contour the way I like it - like the roundbacks!
Mike - How do you get yours to tip. I figured out a way on the 2080, but I'm always looking for a better one!

I agree with the line of separation notion as well. But I'm afraid what I want and what Ovation will do are diametrically opposed. I bet in the not too distant future New Hartford turns into a custom shop and everything else comes from Asia, or wherever the next cheap labor force rises up. If that happens, I think we'll have lost something very, very special. Don't know how many new axes I'd ever have the urge to buy again ... :(
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Slipkid
Posted 2007-01-08 10:22 PM (#121336 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: south east Michigan
Geez Robbie... Your harshin' my buzz! :cool:
That sure would be a worst case senario.
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alpep
Posted 2007-01-08 10:36 PM (#121337 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10581

Location: NJ
Originally posted by cwk2:
Al, the wire rims would look good on your truck.
Can you get them from this guy?
nope the guy sold them long ago and I was not aware of it.
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MWoody
Posted 2007-01-08 10:54 PM (#121338 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



Joined:
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Location: Upper Left USA
Q: Mike - How do you get yours to tip? I figured out a way on the 2080, but I'm always looking for a better one.

A: I wear a strap, hold the instrument up at about 2 O'clock and right forearm the bout until the contour edge digs into my ribs.
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ignimbyte
Posted 2007-01-09 1:11 AM (#121339 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 812

Location: Hicksville, NY
In an interview with CF Martin IV that I read a while back -- when asked about the quality of the low end Martins with the high end ones -- he replied that he had said to people that the D-15 was the best bargain in the world, and that it's basically the same as a D-45 without the pearl inlays. Basically, it's "the same" guitar.

IMHO, in addition to the famed round backs, also make the contour bowls available to all high and low end Ovation and Adamas guitars. If the same quality control and the treatment to building, for example, a low-end balladeer is the same as that of a high-end custom legend, then that assures the buying public that every Ovation that they get their hands on is a very high quality instrument -- regardless of price. :)

here's the link about that interview with CF Martin IV:
http://www.modernguitars.com/archives/001426.html
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Tony Calman
Posted 2007-01-09 1:33 AM (#121340 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Location: SoCal
My D-15S (slothead) arrived today at Al's (trade plus $'s for Al's 2006C). The slothead D-15 is far and above the standard D-15. For a lower end guitar, the D-15S is a great guitar for the $'s.

As to the D-45, guess that is a good marketing statement...D-45 buyers won't be dissuaded, 1st time Martin buyers will be encouraged. Or, maybe he is admitting that the D-45 is overpriced?

Gee, if CFM IV decides to sell the D-45 "plain jane" for $1,300, I'll take a couple.

Going back to the topic...I would rather have a deep bowl non-cutaway...however, if a cutaway, I don't care. I go from a deep bowl to a contour and I don't notice the difference in playing position or comfort. Course, I wear a strap. Not sure of other guitars with the contour, but have been impressed with the projection and voice of the 2005 and 2006 Collectors. As to the Celebs, it should improve the guitar - however, side-by-side, doubt if the Celeb will ever be at the same level of a USA Ovation. The answer of separating the two lines is the logo...I see the Celeb as a Kaman guitar, not Ovation.

And, doubt if I would buy a non-textured top with contour. Cvt & SMT are great guitars but not in the league of an Adamas I, Adamas II, or U681T.
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lanaki
Posted 2007-01-09 1:42 AM (#121341 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: big island
from what i am hearing about the blueridge guitars from china, CFM IV is probably admitting the D-45 is overpriced.
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brainslag
Posted 2007-01-09 7:08 AM (#121342 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: CT
What's with you people? 5 years ago did you guys buy USA Ovations instead of Celebrities because the bowl is different? No. The materials, build quality and sound are superior. Let them put contour bowls on the lower end guitars if they want to. It's the same freakin' plastic bowl, with a DENT! I'm not going to ditch my Custom Legend for a Celebrity because it has a contour bowl. The same things that steered us to USA O's before will continue to do so if KAMAN put contours all over. For me, I'll take the round bowl any day. If I saw 2 otherwise identical Adamii or Custom Legends hanging on a wall, I'd take the round back any day.
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worshipleader
Posted 2007-01-09 7:11 AM (#121343 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: NW NJ
Originally posted by MWoody:
Q: Mike - How do you get yours to tip? I figured out a way on the 2080, but I'm always looking for a better one.

A: I wear a strap, hold the instrument up at about 2 O'clock and right forearm the bout until the contour edge digs into my ribs.
Yep, that's what I do too. Great minds? Thought maybe you might have come up with a new system to rival the popularity of Standing O's string tube or reflecive bowl paint breakthroughs ... :)
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Trader Jim
Posted 2007-01-09 7:46 AM (#121344 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: South of most, North of few
"If I saw 2 otherwise identical Adamii or Custom Legends hanging on a wall, I'd take the round back any day."
Right with ya, Brainslag!
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worshipleader
Posted 2007-01-09 7:47 AM (#121345 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: NW NJ
Originally posted by Slipkid:
Geez Robbie... Your harshin' my buzz! :cool:
That sure would be a worst case senario.
Yeah Brad - harshed my own buzz too! :(

My heart hopes that they don't do that, but with the quality and features of the celeb line continuing to more closely mirror those of the US line, what is the most likely conclusion? I think the thing that bugs me the most about the possibility is losing even more American hands building American things, in American plants in America.

I really do applaud Kaman and Martin (only because I've seen their operations on their tours - Taylor may be in the same situation) for doing so much to keep jobs here in the US plants. All that automation we see in the factories is a huge way the companies use to keep the plants open here. The machines are really good at doing the same thing over and over again with nearly 100% consistency. Over their useful lives, they are much less expensive that people to do the same job (by huge multipliers), and they do it consistently. On a global scale, the cost of raw materials is reasonably the same country to country because we have a global market for most materials. Labor, on the other hand varies widely which is why business chases cheap labor around the world for products that require a significant amout of human labor to produce. Look at clothing and electronics - NOTHING is made here, or any other developed nation for that matter. Automobiles on the other hand can be made here because the factories are SO automated. I think guitars fall in the middle somewhere. For a manufacturer to keep US guitar plants open, they have to really want to. I really hope Kaman wants to...

On the bright side (if there is one to my doomsday prediction), as global business continues to chase cheap labor around the world though, someday we'll be the cheapest labor force in the world and everyone will be wanting to do it in America again. It's just getting there that could be painful. :confused:
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Artist
Posted 2007-01-09 9:35 AM (#121346 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?



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Posts: 793

Location: Texas
I think is time for a well designed wooden bowl.

Maybe flamed maple with a spruce top might sound the best, like the great arched top and back guitars, but any wood combination that they can find to build a top model wood roundback will catch the attention of many that prefer an all wood guitar.

And make it expensive.
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Tupperware
Posted 2007-01-09 10:10 AM (#121347 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


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Location: Phoenix AZ
BINGO !
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ChatMan
Posted 2007-01-09 12:14 PM (#121348 - in reply to #121310)
Subject: Re: contour bowl ? or no traditional bowl?


Joined:
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Posts: 604

Location: Tampa, FL
Originally posted by worshipleader:
...
Mike - How do you get yours to tip.
...[/QB]
I've found it effective to increaase the convexification of my front.

On a more serious note, I think Brainslag makes an excellent point. Before the contour bowl there was no diffrentiation between the bowls attached to USA models and models from elsewhere. The attempt to differentiate based on bowl shape would seem to be driven only by "because you want to" rather than "because you need to" or "because you should." From a business perspective, I expect the customer will differentiate Ovations as they always have, they'll buy what they think they want.

On the other hand, the contour bowl does offer a simple, slam dunk, so-easy-even-a-GC-drone-can-do-it answer to the question "What's different about his one vs. that one?"

Personally, I don't care a lot for the contour bowl, I really like the round-back deep and mid bowls. In terms of sound I really prefer my deep bowls but that IMO has much more to do with the top material (cedar and cracked spruce with A braceing vs. ES with LX bracing) than bowl shape. For me bowl shape is all about comfort and there, again IMO, the round bowls are preferable.

YMMV
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