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Location: Stratford, Connecticut | REALLY sucks about the You Tube lawsuit! All the videos I loved just pulling up to watch and then "see ya next time"... No more next times! They're all YANKED and if they're not, they're going to be soon! I noticed for certain things they're charging 1.99 for continuous views too.. but not downloading! Only viewing thru your account.... TERRIBLE... greedy companies! It's all OLD stuff, it's just ridiculous... but yet.. just like Metallica.. they do have a point. STILL STINKS! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Money is God. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Money is not god, but it will put you in the comfortable pews.. |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Money for intellectual property is good! Our society really seems to have hard time with this one. If you want free music, make up your own stuff. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | you added an "O" there, Gober. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Ever seen them KODA buildings...they`re shoveling in more money for themselves than musicians are getting...I`m just wanderig about when Appliance Manufacturers will charge us money for using those appliances..that`s what the music biz does..sell us an item,than charge us for using them...ever thought about that ??
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Enfant, 'splain to me how you 'paid' for a downloaded song.
How is it that the Music Industry sells you an item then charges you for it's use? You buy the cd, you own the right to the use of it, you do not own the right to sell or copy it for others use. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Enfant, 'splain to me how you 'paid' for a downloaded song.
How is it that the Music Industry sells you an item then charges you for it's use? You buy the cd, you own the right to the use of it, you do not own the right to sell or copy it for others use
I bought it,It`s Mine !!
U buy an Ovation guitar,do U pay for Using/Selling it ??
How would U feel when the manufacturer of your Amp/Combo-TV-Radio-Car-Clothes-Shoes-etc.would charge U for Using /Lending/Selling "their stuff"..
KODA claims that people earn money using/playing "their stuff",well,U make money driving your car to work,and U make money every time you use your instrument on a paid gig..
Did I answer U`re Question ?? was the List long enough ??
Vic |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Sue downloaders all you want... You will win a battle here and there, but as long as you're holding-on to the way things were before, YouTube and the like, you are going to lose the war. Artists and Owners of Artist's works are going to have to fundamentally change their thinking about the business or become obsolete.
The Daffy Duck ("It's mine all mine!") principle will not be long lived in this age.
I think of the radical idea, in it's day of 'The Dead' saying, "sure record and share our live stuff"
As things evolve, YouTube et al, will give Artists MORE control over their work (and away from the industry wrangler who suck-off most of an Artist's proceeds in the first place) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | and by the way....
Fuck ClearChannel. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by Enfant Terrible aka V-Elite:
U buy an Ovation guitar,do U pay for Using/Selling it ?? Actually, if you play for a living in a properly licensed venue, the club owner pays for you to be playing cover tunes.
I'm not sure that librarys don't pay a license fee for the right to loan out books.
The concept of intellectual property rights is has hard to explain to most folks as explaining property rights to communists and anarchists...and I'm sure not up to it. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | "As things evolve, YouTube et al, will give Artists MORE control over their work (and away from the industry wrangler who suck-off most of an Artist's proceeds in the first place)"
I so Agree !!
Vic |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Taking legal action against ones consumer is now and has been the record industries last grasp at survival. In this day, there is little "need" for a record company. More and more artists are releasing their own works. More and more stores are open to stocking these artists, and with Satellite and Internet radio, more and more avenues for exposure.
It's not totally there yet, but very soon, the Record Company as we know it, will be gone. Even now, they are more into producing "entertainers" than "musicians" and in many cases just taking established artists that are just not yet nationally known, repackaging them, and making them known to make a quick buck. They are grasping at straws. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Here-here, Miles. And let's not forget that it's those same record companies (by and large) who OWN the rights to artist's works that are claiming foul. |
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Location: Stratford, Connecticut | Guess I opened a can of worms eh? hahahaha I just LOVE the freedom You Tube and Napster had. I feel they both HELPED the artists.. but I guess hurting the record company is what the problem was... what a shame. |
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Location: big island | we can all make, mass produce and market our own cd/dvd productions at home on our computers and utilize peer-to-peer sharing utilities worldwide.
to borrow a phrase, "welcome to the machine" |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | It's not totally there yet, but very soon, the Record Company as we know it, will be gone. Even now, they are more into producing "entertainers" than "musicians" and in many cases just taking established artists that are just not yet nationally known, repackaging them, and making them known to make a quick buck. They are grasping at straws
Well Put Mr.O
And let's not forget that it's those same record companies (by and large) who OWN the rights to artist's works that are claiming foul.
Ain`t that the Truth
Vic |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Having made my living for a long while as a professional songwriter, I can tell you that we are ones that get screwed from both ends. Forget the ARTIST. What everyone says about record companies becoming obselete is true!
But, when a song is downloaded or a CD is sold, the total paid out to the writer(s) and owners of the said work is a total of 9.1 CENTS per unit (mechanical royalty). So if I wrote the song, I get basically 4.5 cents for the writer's share(s) and 4.5 cents is paid for the publisher's share (administrator, if you will); or if it is co-written, split however the writers agree(usually equal shares).
So if I co-write a song with one other person, make that a whopping 2.75 cents from the RECORD COMPANY. WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING THE RECORD COMPANIES FOR YEARS!! Then, if we have a big seller, we sometimes end up sueing the RC because they have done some fishy accounting.
You have to admit, that payment is a mere pittance for us, the writers, providing the very vehicle that the record company and artist use to make millions.
Then, we get people not paying us our pittance by file sharing, which is stealing any way you put it.
You can tell this is an issue that is near and dear to me, but for the last 5-10 years songwriters' mechanical royalties have steadly declined, when we've been the whipping post of record companies and consumers since the digital age.
I apologize if I came off as gruff in my original statement, but folks, FREE MUSIC IS ILLEGAL MUSIC. Not my opinion, it's the law. |
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| I still wish I could have had the talent and the luck of timing to have been a rock musician of the late 60's and became a creative force into and through the 70,s. For me this was the Hey-Day for Rock & Roll it was when the audiences were still in awe of the whole scene the record companies were still amiable if you were good enough and the music was as good as it ever got. Well as good as it needed to get for me anyway.
Facinating how it has all changed and it just does not seem to be the same thing at all now. I can't imagine any new kids having the same dreams like I did when I was young, it is all so complicated now. It almost seems like luck or false promotions instead of pure raw talent, attitude and drive...............and that my friends is not the way it should be.
Randy |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Go Goob! It's been over 20 years since I made a dime off royalties, but nothing got any better for the songwriter. (Some/many of us/them aren't pretty, can't play or sing that good, and are damned shy...so making a career out of performing is a non-starter.)
Northcountry; don't fool yourself. Rock \'n\' Roll is a Vicious Game. The record companies have always been vicious bastards. But they could be held to account....sort of. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Remember when all the Rock stations played an album at midnight? Then the record companies put a screeching-halt to that, cuz "everyone" (actually very few) was taping the whole album!
I understand Goober's point. But I've noticed that whenever someone gets a good thing going (the original folks and YouTube) someone is gonna stop it. Always happens... Never fails...
What ever happened to Guerrilla Radio?
And I'm always so far down the curve, that by the time I find something cool, it's over. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | I point to Mr O`s comment earlier,and Jeff W`s addition, I know some Musicians,compared to some of you,I do not know many,but they All Share the same Fate as Goober ,initially Goob ,U are Right,Stealin` Is Illegal,but made illegal by WHO ?!...by those that Steal of U ,..The Court`s never execute the Law,they execute their Interpretation of the Law, U know,if U would find it in your heart to play one of my songs,then I would be PROUD !..I would tell the WHOLE WORLD,.."Hey Everybody,Goober here is playin`MY SONG "..and I`d buy U a beer,it would make my day !.. :)
Yet U are Right,downloading without permission Is Illegal,and would be Major Troublesome.
No hard feelings Goob,I know U work Hard for Your money,U`re the One doin`the sweatin`,and there are those who enjoy their sailboat because of that ;)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Vic, I am NOT a performer/artist. I am JUST a writer: nne the behind-the-scenes people that rarely get credit and depend on people like you to be honest and pay for the music you use. We also depend on the recording companies to be honest and pay us our miniscule fee. :)
I despise the record companies just as much as a lot of people do, maybe for different reasons.
The system is broke with no good fix in sight, and some people just don't get the concept of intellectual property rights. :(
And I DO NOT sing anybody's songs...not even my own, 'cause I'm a really crappy singer even by Kristofferson standards. :cool: I had to get people like Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood to sing my demos for me (before they were famous, obviously).
Just my 2.5 cents worth. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Goober:
Having made my living for a long while as a professional songwriter, I can tell you that we are ones that get screwed from both ends. Forget the ARTIST. What everyone says about record companies becoming obselete is true! Imagine a world where there's one radio [audio monopoly] station. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Goober, I find the hardest part ,Is SongWriting, and U got Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood to Demo Your songs....You Are Worth Any Bit of that 2.5 cents.... :D
( Instead of sailboats I should have said SAILSHIPS ) ;)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Just your luck, it's a mariachi station....! |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | "Imagine a world where there's one radio station"
..and where Frazier Crane is the Host...
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Radio is different for us...that's performance royalties and we get paid by BMI, ASCAP and SESAC.
OK, I'm through with my songwriter payment school. :D
The problem with radio consolidation is that play lists have shrunk to an average of 40 songs played over and over and over....boring for the listener and bad for songwriters.
BAD FOR EVERYBODY...AND SCREW CLEAR CHANNEL. :) |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Goober, I hear ya.
There are some other points that factor in:
- I'm not sure there is any way to measure that if the majority of people who download and shared music illegally would stop doing so, would they buy the music instead.
- Of the illegally downloaded or shared music, how many are doing it just because they already own the CD and just want a decent mp3 and not really ripping anyone off, just saving themselves some time.
- And this statistic, if it could be derived, is probably the most important. How many downloads caused someone to be exposed to music they would not normally think about, and they end up buying an artists whole catalog based on hearing a shared download, or, they talked about it and at least caused someone else to buy the artists work.
All good questions I think, that don't have answers. I do think that if the record companies, and unfortunately the artists and song writers loose enough, the record companies or someone else
WILL build a better mouse trap that makes it better than it ever was for the artists and songwriters.
A proven marketing strategy is to offer something for free, that entices the consumer to buy something else. I think this is where iPod was heading, maybe they still are. Imagine if the large record companies got together and made their entire catalog free. But to play the music downloaded you need one of their nifty players. And this player is so cool, that everyone wants to buy one anyway. This is a little basic, but it's just one simpletons idea.
Maybe it's time the record companies start distributing downloaded music at a reasonable price and quality to where downloading music and paying for it, is actually easier than getting the free stuff.
Aside from it being cheaper, I use AllOfMp3 to download because the system is lightyears ahead of iTunes. The catalog is better, the quality is better, the interface is better and I can download in any format I want. To top it all off, I can download the entire index to use with their free standalone application to search and make purchases, then have it download the music later when I'm not using the computer. If iTunes did a fraction of this, it "might" be worth what they charge.
Finally, THE RECORD COMPANIES have turned buying a CD into a real crap shoot. My main reason for NOT buying a CD (or even downloading whole CD's) is that they produce ONE or TWO tunes that I am interested in. Granted this has always been true, but in the 80's and early 90's it seemed that there was always at least a couple of albums on the charts with MULTIPLE hits. Now it's hard to find an artist who has multiple hits, and to make matters worse... the "hit" doesn't sound anything like the rest of the album.
I'd bet if the record companies got back to the original idea of promoting music with the theory of the better the product, the more money they make, things would be better for everyone. Now it seems the record companies are only concerned with the "make more money" part, and they don't really care how they get it.
In watching this show called "Classic Albums" I found an interesting theme that great albums such as Fleetwood Mac Rumors and Nirvana's first album did not start out as classics or with the idea of a million seller being the goal. The idea was to make a great album that would sell enough to pay for itself. The record company that signed Nirvana "hoped" to sell 50,000 copies based on the fanbase, strength of the live shows etc...
Now I think the Record Company's are trying to make a hit of every album, even if it isn't. In the long run the consumer is being hurt, the artists and songwriters are being hurt and the Record companies are still making money, hand over fist.
===jumping off soapbox===
To the point..
"The system is broke with no good fix in sight" - Goober |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Originally posted by Enfant Terrible aka V-Elite:
Goober, I find the hardest part ,Is SongWriting, and U got Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood to Demo Your songs....You Are Worth Any Bit of that 2.5 cents.... :D
( Instead of sailboats I should have said SAILSHIPS ) ;)
Vic :cool: Garth got $30 a song to sing demos, and back then nobody liked his voice. This was about a year and a half before his first hit. Go figure!! :rolleyes: :) |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | And great points, Miles. I agree that there is a better way.....but there's one problem: YOU MAKE WAY TOO MUCH SENSE. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Mr.O:
Ho now,too much too repeat,I just say about your post :
I So Agree !! :)
(I wish Mr.O would take office in the U N ,and speak our cause ) ;)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Mr. O quote-- "the "hit" doesn't sound anything like the rest of the album."
I've had that happen in reverse... There are "hits" that kinda suc'd, but the rest of the album was good. I have an old Hooters (one hit wonder) tape that I found. Other than their Top 40 hit, the rest of the album is great. But the record industry wants the Artist to create a Hit, even if it doesn't sound anything like the music he/she likes to play. [Do your Job, Man!]
When all the radio stations play a "formula", they never play any kind of selection...
Musicians like Joe Cocker, Janis Joplin, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Croce, Jethro Tull, or anyone not adhering to the Formula will not be played... Nowadays they would not be played.
Aw, better quit now...
But y'all get my point. :mad: Smash The State in 2008! |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | " When all the radio stations play a "formula", they never play any kind of selection...
Musicians like Joe Cocker, Janis Joplin, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Croce, Jethro Tull, or anyone not adhering to the Formula will not be played... Nowadays they would not be played."
Aah...Janis Joplin..Moody Blues..them were Times..
now U`re gettin`me all Melancholic..I still do n`t have short hair :D
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Almost cut my Hair....
But I didn't and I wonder why,
I just feel like letting my Freak Flag Fly!
Cuz I feel like I owe it... To Someone! |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
- And this statistic, if it could be derived, is probably the most important. How many downloads caused someone to be exposed to music they would not normally think about, and they end up buying an artists whole catalog based on hearing a shared download, or, they talked about it and at least caused someone else to buy the artists work.
I mentioned this once before - while sitting at a coworkers desk, I "ripped" his Chieftains CD onto my laptop. Yes - at the time, I technically took it without paying. It could have gone three ways after that 1) I keep it and listen to it free of charge, 2) I don't like it and erase it or ignore it, or 3) I like it so much that I buy the original CD and about 8 or 9 other Chieftains cds - which is what happened.
Anything that exposes us to artists that we normally would not be exposed to is a good thing. Radio certainly doesn't do it anymore except for a few college or publicly funded stations, like WXPN around here. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Guys, this is precisely the kind of stuff that DVD " B4MD - Before the Music Dies " talks about. It explores all of these issues in the music industry and more... very fascinating stuff, and I'd recommend you check it out. They don't really have a solution, just an interesting exploration of the issue. Closest they get to a solution is moving to smaller artist-centric record companies like ATO Records, smaller radio, and encouraging the consumer to be more discriminating.
An interesting point, for example, is that up until now, the record companies have always been able to count on people cycling their personal libraries to the latest and greatest technologies. People replaced their 8-tracks and albums with cassettes. They replaced their casettes with CDs. Now people are replacing their CDs with digital, and the technology has leapfrogged their profit model and mentality.
I got my copy on amazon.com .
I'm not one to watch a movie again and again.. if people want to pass it around, I'd be happy to send it out for other people to view and enjoy. The more people who see how the industry works "behind the scenes" the better.
Shoot me a PM with your address if interested. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | dvd-- Okay, I'm scared now! Those people said exactly what I was thinking (and I ain't heard that before).
Sad but true! |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | OMA, the movie is like that again and again. It all falls into place and it really creeps you out when it all hits you in a 90 minute flick.
To quote Morpheus from The Matrix: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | I found the OFC from a music site while I was researching how to market my hold-out songs. I have always sold outright for cash. I don't know mail-box money yet. I started selling after mp-3.
Other back-home hippies did just fine. I'm getting cosmetic surgery (still healing right now) just so I can get out there while I'm still young enough to do it.
With concert tickets commanding insane prices, and writers losing at every turn, the only logical thing is that we do our own stuff and hope to hell people like the grass-roots. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Originally posted by jujurocks:
I'm getting cosmetic surgery (still healing right now) just so I can get out there while I'm still young enough to do it. wow. I'm speechless. that's it in a nutshell. |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | Because the world isn't flat.
Or saggy. Or wrinkled. Or self-depreciating. Or tired. Or lazy, old, stuck in a rut or out of shape.
Even us ol' hippies. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Touche! and don't get me wrong... I'm not criticizing you by any means. I just think it's a shame that the industry has come to this. As a music consumer, I couldn't care less what you look like as long as your music is what I'm into. But I recognize that appearance has a major influence on whether I ever have the opportunity to hear your stuff. |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | I'll be sure to post a good pic so any solitary soul (even on this site full of articulate, refined musicians) follows the link. :p |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | " With concert tickets commanding insane prices, and writers losing at every turn, the only logical thing is that we do our own stuff and hope to hell people like the grass-roots. "
True,though it`s hard to come up with somethin`"new"...I usually get the impression it`s all been " done " before..It Is Hard to write Songs..I mean somethin`like " L.O.V.E " was
an Original Concept,or " Bad to the Bone "..etc.
I wish I could come up with somethin`likethat :)
I hope your surgery will be succesful,perhaps U could put up a gallery and a link to one of your songs,I would Love to Hear what an " Old Hippie "
sounds like ;)
( I`m a senior hippie ) :D
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | I'll be sure to post a good pic so any solitary soul (even on this site full of articulate, refined musicians) follows the link.
Okay....U beat me to it.. :rolleyes:
Vic :cool: |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | Right on, my brother!
My "hold-outs" are new ideas.
Once I rebuild my studio, I'll re-record.
I suck on guitar so bad I wonder if I deserve my guitars, but I write great hooks.
You'll all have access to them in a few months.
I don't even own my other stuff (fluff) anymore. I sold them and can't take credit. Signed, sealed, delivered. Kinda sucks, but the bills get paid.
You all know. |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | The RC's take your babies and turn them into disfigured mutants that sell. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | DVD; That movie was "mayhem"....
" I don't even own my other stuff (fluff) anymore. I sold them and can't take credit. Signed, sealed, delivered. Kinda sucks, but the bills get paid.
You all know "
Aye Sister.....if only we did not have to eat ;)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | The kids have to eat. And live indoors. And go to college.
Thanks for understanding, Julie |
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Location: North Cal. mountains | ENFANT: Although I could not follow the link to your site, I did see you are in Denmark.
What is the music business like there? Do they appreciate local artists? Or are they into pop? |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Hmm...the music scene has developed tremendously overhere,during the past 10 yrs.it has escalated even,so many bars have been re-done to accomodate live music,and the quality has gone-up as well,mostly american style,jazzy,rap,rock,country is big,even on T V.. even stand-up comedy ,and then of course the dance bands,U know playing 60 ish,70 ish ,it`s in away easier to get gigs,pay is usually lousy,and then there`s " told og skat " ( Danish equivalent of the I R S ) so by far most moosies are part-timers,such as myself,there are those who live of it,but do be prepared to run around,Sweden,Norway, a quick small gig in Finland,Germany is stil the Mecca of Music overhere,they still like songs in their native tongue,same for France,of course there are New Danish ,Swedish,even Norwegian songs,but Few and Far in between,as one member from Finland once posted here ( can n`t remember who ) " I`ve been gigging around the world,but never at home "....so there,in a nutshell...U know :, It`s Hard to be a Profet in one`s own country ;)
P S . I do not have a site, I`m a klutz with computers,and my sons are allways busy,the Big Lad (23)is preparing for his exams,the Little Lad (16)has no time either ( he complains about walking the dog twice a day :rolleyes: ) but someday !! ;) .......sorry :)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Ain't tryin' to change nobody, I'm just tryin' real hard to adjust! |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
And this statistic, if it could be derived, is probably the most important. How many downloads caused someone to be exposed to music they would not normally think about, and they end up buying an artists whole catalog based on hearing a shared download, or, they talked about it and at least caused someone else to buy the artists work. I can only speak for myself, but I had pretty much tuned out of contemporary music around 1993 or so. I didn't get back into it until the original (illegal) Napster came along. Thanks to that, I got wired in to all kinds of new stuff. For a year or so, I was going nuts, listening to new stuff and (most importantly) buying CD's for the first time in years. I bet I bought 50 CD's that year. It was just more convenient: Once I found something I liked, I would buy the CD just so I had a perfectly clean copy (no someone's hack job CD rip) of the complete album.
Then they shut down Napster. Big mistake IMHO. Those guys are clinging in desparation to the past. They need to be looking to the future. |
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Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4833
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | There Is Great Disorder Under Heaven, and the Situation is Excellent!
Uncle Duke - Doonesbury (misquoting Mao)
Something will shake out of all this chaos....and something else out of that. People will get hurt and thrilled in the process.
Writers, keep on writing
Players, keep on playing
World, keep on listnin'
Keep on tryin', 'till we reach the highest ground...
(appologies to Stevie) |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Was n`t that Barry manilow who claimed " There`s music in the air " ...
Vic :cool: |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | No, . . . he just farted. |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Quote:
No, . . . he just farted.
:D
Vic :cool: |
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Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4833
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | In perfect pitch though! |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | . . and got a Grammy for it . . . |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | ..I just get given the Exodus.. |
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January 2004
Posts: 799
Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | Glen Campbell on drugs: "Uh..will there be any Grammy's in heaven?" |
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OT: You Tube LAWSUIT