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Location: Central Oregon | I need advice. I've been playing "Windy & Warm" with a flat pick & one or two fingers for several years. It sounds fairly close but it's just not *right* so I decided to bite the proverbial bullet & try to learn to play it correctly (at least closer to correctly) with a thumb pick & three fingers. I've been plunking around for 50 years but I've never used a thumb pick in the past. (I can play "Classical Gas" reasonably well with no pick at all & my thumb & fingers get along ok.) I can do the alternating bass strings with the thumb pick, no problem. After considerable practice I can now play the melody with three fingers fairly well. The trouble starts when I try to do both at the same time. I get the ol' thumb goin' but as soon as I try to start playing the melody with my fingers my thumb stops. Every stinkin' time. I know it's going to be a matter of practice but so far I've not been able to get my thumb & fingers to work together. If I can get past this it's going to open up a whole lot of musical opportunities for me. Anybody got any suggestions to get my stupid digits to work together? (I've already tried pounding on my forehead repeatedly.) This is making me crazy(er). HELP!?
Btw, these guys don't seem to have any trouble--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO79-NIdsxo&mode=related&search= |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Nils,
First of all those guys play that song all day, every day of their lives. Pascal (in the middle) can play it and hold a conversation with you at the same time. Amazing. My only advice (from he can not play it at ALL) is just keep on practicing. You've been playing for 50 years. What's the hurry now? Come to the tour next month and maybe Tom can give us all a lesson!
Was that an Adamas II Slothead in the middle?
Dave |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Yeah ....but there are three o`them...how many are there o`you .... :)
Vic :cool: |
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Location: Upper Left USA | I nominate Nils as the Delegate (not delicate) for the Northwest!
Mov'in into the digital age! |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Nils, I have a similar challange with Anji...one of my favourite guitar instrumentals of all time. Getting the contrapuntal bass working with the melody of the fingers just doesn't happen for me.
So I play it 'my way' and say, that's my arrangement. Which it is. Still sounds nice, and gets the emotion of the piece across. (and it's getting worse as the apparent arthritis encroaches. gets to be a trade-off between enough tequila to dull the pain versus the loss of control and focus....) |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | No help here. I use a flat pick for everything, so the entire hand gets the credit for mistakes, not just the thumb. |
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Location: PDX | Originally posted by fillhixx:
Nils, I have a similar challange with Anji...one of my favourite guitar instrumentals of all time. Oh yeah! That one belongs in the "Best Acoustic Songs" thread for sure. Graham may have written it, but for my ear Jansch owns it. [/threadjack]
Keep practicing -- slowly -- stupid slow. Do it right slow and build speed from there. .02 cents.
_____
gh1 |
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Location: NJ | Just KeepAtIt . . . |
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Location: SoCal | Tommy Emmanual, in one of his instructional videos on youtube, says to just do the thumb part for 2 weeks to where it feels natural. Then add the lead. I remember an interview with Jerry Reed, where he talks about the day that he finally developed independance between his thumb and fingers, meaning he could play one thing with his thumb and something else with the fingers.
Now, having said that, I also play with a flatpick and fingers (as does Jeff W's hero, Richard Thompson). I hang out on the chetboard.com and every once in a while think about working on my thumbpick technique.... |
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Location: Tucson, AZ | ...just remember "digital" comes from the Latin word 'digitus' meaning FINGER. |
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Location: ranson,wva | ive been working at it for about 2yrs now(sloww learner) but im starting to get independence between my thumb abd fingers. i can pick with the thunb and 1 finger right now and im starting to get the hang of thumb and 2 fingers.....jason |
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Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Tommy Emmanual, in one of his instructional videos on youtube, says to just do the thumb part for 2 weeks to where it feels natural. Then add the lead. I remember an interview with Jerry Reed, where he talks about the day that he finally developed independance between his thumb and fingers, meaning he could play one thing with his thumb and something else with the fingers.
Now, having said that, I also play with a flatpick and fingers (as does Jeff W's hero, Richard Thompson). I hang out on the chetboard.com and every once in a while think about working on my thumbpick technique.... That's the kind of info I was looking for, thanks Paul. I know that practice, practice, practice is always the answer, but the right *kind* of practice is what I need & I think you just gave me a very important clue. I just started trying to do this a few days ago & it's been very frustrating. Usually I can catch on to something quicker but this is really tough. It feels like I'm trying to split my brain in half. (Which is a lot like trying to split a sesame seed.) I guess if it was easy there would be a lot more people doing it.
I'm reminded of when I first started trying to learn to play. I couldn't keep a beat to save myself. For weeks I tried & tried & tried & was just about to give up when suddenly one day, wham, I could do it. It was like a switch was flipped. Major turning point. It wasn't great (still isn't really, I tend to speed up, especially when playing alone) but I was on top of the world. I hope this turns out the same way.
Thanks to everyone else for the encouragement, I'll keep at it, practicing the finger picking & thumb picking separately until I can do both without having to think about it much. Then I'll try to put them together rather than trying to do it all at once. I think it would be a lot easier if I hadn't been doing the flatpicking with one or two fingers for so long. Actually it took a while to learn to do that too, but it wasn't as hard as this split-brain deal.
I'll check out chetboard.com. Can anybody give me a link to Tommy's instructional videos? I have a heck of a time finding anything on YouTube. I usually find things in there by accident.
Thanks gang! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I also play with a flatpick and fingers (as does Jeff W's hero, Richard Thompson). I don't care what you say, Moody, I'm NOT going to follow you around the country paying 50 bucks a show. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | But you're okay with following, right? |
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Location: SoCal | Jeff, your loss....
Nils, take a look at this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45vrY1Q3S7I |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I've gotta learn that finger-pickin' stuff, else I'm never gonna play Dreamboat Annie! (Or Dust in the Wind, or etc etc etc)
I keep practicing that stuff, then I get frustrated/despondent and grab my pick. Go back to something I learned 20 years ago!
I know that if I don't do what is difficult, I will never improve... I just wanted to vent. |
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Location: Alberta, Canada | Originally posted by Old Tele man:
...just remember "digital" comes from the Latin word 'digitus' meaning FINGER. I've gotten the digitus a time or two.
Evan given it a time or two. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My thumb works pretty well, but when I put a thumb pick on it, I have trouble. |
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Location: Central Oregon | Thank you, thank you, thank you Paul! That is EXACTLY what I needed! I have the thumb (boom chick) part down pretty good, now I can start working on the finger part in a way that will get me somewhere. Apparently there are more lessons, can you tell me how to get to them please? They don't seem to be consecutive. Thanks again, this will keep me busy for a while. |
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Location: Central Oregon | I found what I think is the next one, it includes how to play Windy & Warm. Now if I can just do it at some point. Thanks again! I've got to figure out a way to navigate YouTube better. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | ". . . I've got to figure out a way to navigate YouTube better . . . "
Use your thumb and fist three fingers... |
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Location: France - Paris | Hello Nils,
I'm the one between the 2 others. (hope my english is correct :confused: ???)
I play since i'm 15, (i'm now 45 with a stop for 20 years !!)
It seems you learn first bass line, then melody line and try at least to play the two at the same time. I'm sure you don't have stupid digits, but, to play that way you need to have 2 brains. :cool:
I think it's the most difficult way.
I always learn the 2 lines together on tab's. I need one week to memorize, and months to play it the best way. The only word i can say is : practice .... slowly at the beginning and faster every day .... |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | I wish you luck with it Nils. A couple of years ago I put down the flat pick, grabbed a thumb pick and vowed to play only fingerstyle for 12 months. A month later I went back to the flat pick...
These days I play some very bad versions of Windy and Warm, Freight Train, 9lb Hammer, Cannonball Rag and a poor man's Blackbird & All My Loving and a couple of others that shall remain nameless.
I guess I was too lazy. So my tip would be to not only practice but to be persistent. Just keep plugging away and try not to get discouraged.
Once again, good luck with it. Remember...boom, chick...boom, chick :) |
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Location: SoCal | I'm with Adamas player. I tend to learn a tune from tab all at once rather than learning the bass part then the treble part. But unlike him, I use a pick and fingers and it takes me months to memorize a tune and years to get it down.
I use a couple of different picking patterns for rhythm and solo playing (I think Clifford has commented in the past that it drives him nuts). To learn even the pattern, it took about 2 weeks of playing it over and over, one note at a time, with absolutely no attempt at rhythm. Then one day, wham!, I could do it with rhythm.
I've read where even the best players out there tend to learn new tunes one bar at a time... learn one bar, then the next, then put the two together. There are no shortcuts...... |
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Location: Central Oregon | Thanks for your input AdamasPlayer, it certainly looks simple when you do it. I don't think two brains would work out for me. I'm sure there's plenty of room in my noggin for several more since there's plenty of empty space in there, but I can't get my one brain to work right most of the time.
Thanks for the encouragement guys.(Including smartass remarks JeffW :) )
I'm painfully slow at TAB. I can read it but it takes me a while to re-learn it every time I use it. Every time I think about how simple it is, but I still have to figure it out again every time.
Once I can train my hand to have a split personality it would probably help to try to learn with TAB. For now, I've gotten to where I can do everything in that first Tommy E. video clip & it's getting easier every time I do it. I'm going to have to practice it a lot, but I can do it, at least for a short time. Once I get to where I can do it without having to concentrate so hard I'll try to move on to the next video of his that I found. I'm not sure how many instructional videos there are, but it will be a while before I can do even the basics of what he shows in that second clip .
I haven't had much free time since my last post. I had a dozen or so of my old biker buddies come from all over Oregon for dinner, picture swapping & general BS'ing yesterday. We had a great time. Everybody was gone a little after midnight. Today there weren't any broken beer bottles or bullet holes or people passed out on the lawn or police cars or anything. Times have changed. |
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Location: Central Oregon | After quite a lot of practice I have managed to make some progress. I have finally boom chick'ed my way to the point where I can keep my thumb going & play - tada! the first three notes of Windy & Warm. Over & over & over. After a few hundred more repetitions of that (or however many it takes) I will shoot for the next two notes. I must say it is getting slightly easier. In the interest of possibly helping someone else that is trying to learn to do this, I have found that I can practice without a guitar by moving my thumb (boom chick, boom chick) & moving my fingers at the appropriate times. (Although I don't do it in public!) Since I can already play the melody (with a pick) my left hand already knows what to do so it isn't really neccesary to practice what I need to learn. Boom chick, boom chick. I've also been playing the melody on the guitar using only my fingers while boom chick'ing in my head, so they're being trained as well. By the time I learn how to do this I might hate this song but I AM going to learn to do it! Boom chick, boom chick, boom chick..... |
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Location: Tampa, FL | My two cents (probably not worth that much)
I tend to learn the bass (thumb line) and practice that until I get REALLY tired of it.
Then I learn the treble lines that mostly coincide with the bass line (think of it as pinching the strings). After a while I start to get pretty tired of that so I start to think of the rythmically intermediate notes.
If a song is easy enough, and I get bored enough, I'll eventually end up with a recognizable rendition of what I set out to learn.
Caveat Reador:
I first learned on the banjo so a lot of my playing probably sounds like 5 string picking patterns with a REALLY low 5th string. ;)
Also, using my method, you will have to rework a lot of your left and right hand fingering as you progress through the process. I don't mind. It keeps me from locking into a single picking pattern (which I am very prone to do) |
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Location: Central Oregon | I can do it. Finally, I can do it. I'm slow & jerky & I have to stop & think from time to time but I can play Windy & Warm the way it's supposed to be played, albeit not very well yet. Thanks to everyone for the encouragement.
A special *THANK YOU!* to AdamasGuy! I didn't use tab like you did, but since I knew where pretty much all the notes were already (much of which I stole watching you & your buddies play, btw), I slowed it down to a sloooow crawl & did the bass & melody at the same time as you suggested, figuring out when & where the notes were supposed to go by ear. One string or two strings at a time or whatever. Once I got that down the 'boom chick' was there all by itself. I plunked my way through almost the whole song one part at a time tonight. (I'll have to go watch you some more to see what I still need to learn.) After three solid hours it's coming along remarkably well. Btw, I didn't realize it was three hours until my wife told me :)
As soon as I can get Windy & Warm smoothed out I'm moving on to Freight Train, Trambone, Wildwood Flower & a whole bunch of stuff I've been playing half-assed for years. I've already found clips of Tommy Emmanuel teaching the first two & Chet Atkins playing a whole bunch of stuff I've always wanted to learn.
Now that I have the basics of this type of playing figured out my guitar playing is going to improve tremendously. I know I'll never be really good, if for no reason other than I'm too old to get in the 30 more years of practice it would probably take, but I'll be able to get better than I ever imagined a few years ago. Thieving licks from YouTube is great! Being able to watch people play songs I've tried to learn for years makes a *world* of difference. I've been groping around blindly trying to do this stuff for a very long time. If I'd had YouTube 40 years ago I might be pretty good by now.
Damn, this is exciting! And it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. It wasn't easy, but I figured I was going to have to devote months to getting to where I am after only 5 days of serious work.
Yahoo!! |
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Location: France - Paris | You are quite right Nils, it's so exciting ...
keep on pickin' .... ;) |
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Location: Central Oregon | Yes, it is AdamasPlayer! Very exciting indeed! I worked at it for three more hours tonight, mostly on the first part trying to get it a bit smoother. Tonight I went out into my shop & played my 1612 plugged in so I wouldn't annoy my wife. It's still very rough & awfully slow but it's getting better. My shoulders were starting to cramp up & my fingers are really sore (even though I have pretty good callouses) but I'm definitely making progress. Sometimes when I'm getting it going pretty good (not every time for sure) I just have to stop & laugh & be happy that I can finally do this!
Thanks again AdamasPlayer, you & your friends were my inspiration. I kept telling myself "If they can do it I can do it!" |
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No digital co-operation :/