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Location: Phoenix AZ | You know, I suspected this for about 6 months. My own ears tell me so, and yesterday two other people came to the same conclusion.
I have a cutaway Adamas I (1587-5) that has always BLOWN ME AWAY as far as acoustic unplugged sound. To my ears, from the players position, it always sounded better then my Slothead 47RI. Deeper, louder, clearer, crisper. Yesterday I played both guitars for two musician friends of mine, and then THEY played the guitars to me.
Conclusion was unaminous. The 1587 was chosen by all of us. Now I realize that judging what you hear, or trusting what others hear is HIGHLY subjective and about as relivent as decribing the taste of ice. But my question is ... is the 47RI (or it's original brother slothead) REALLY the best sounding adamas? I think that it SHOULD be and probably 95% of the time it IS. But the mind does strange things. I wonder if the pricetag, the visual beauty, and the historical significance of the slothead guitars clouds our ability to hear it objectively?
Not trying to step on any sacred (slothead) toes here. Maybe my case is an isolated one, strings, whatever. Or maybe my aural capacity is just all screwed up from listewning to conservative talk radio. Believe me on a scale of 1-100 these guitars are both in the > 95% category. I just wonder if anyone else has had any similar observations.
Dave |
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Location: Athens, GA & Gnashville | From my experience, your results are not surprising. It has been my experience that bridge placement has always been more important to the sound any given guitar design than the headstock angle or type.
A lot of great sounding slotheads have 12 fret neck placement to the body. Coincidence?
Also, I am a big believer in individual guitars that just naturally standout from the crowd. This so obvious that I feel stupid typing it. But, I feel stupid a lot! :cool: |
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Location: SoCal | That's interesting. The other thing to consider, is that as consistant as the quality is in Ovations, there are going to be variances from guitar to guitar. Some guitars, that shouldn't sound good (like your Academy)sound damned nice.
There are also string variances and just day to day quirks. I have days where certain guitars sound great, and others where they don't. I can't explain it.
I do know that last October, when I was at your house, your 47RI sounded better to me than any other guitar you had there. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | I think "best sounding Adamas" may be hard to get a lot of agreement on. I bought a 47 RI because everyone who played one seemed to agree it was somethng special. It's certainly the nicest Adamas I've ever played - but that's not saying a lot. I wouldn't be dissapointed if there was an Adamas everyone said sounded much better and a 47. I would still love my 47 and just really want to check out the other guitar.
If your 1587 sounds better than your 47, I'd say you have some great sounding guitars! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | What sounds "best" is so subjective. I don't have access to many guitars other than my own and I have tried to obtain a variety of Ovations. Sometimes the Ute sounds best, but sometimes I just don't like the Adamas sound as much as the traditional Ovation sound. There are many days when the Folklore seems like the best sounding guitar.
All our perceptions are clouded by other factors. I have trouble listening to the Folklore without factoring in what I great deal I got on it.
When I visited Dave his guitar inventory was different and he had recently purchased the Norman Blake. Although he was enamored with it, I wasn't and I wasn't all that impressed with the FD-14, in part because I couldn't hear how it was that much better than the Folklore I had just obtained. The guitar I thought sounded best was the John Lennon, which Dave recently sold. Reviewing Dave's guitars in a 1 hour visit is kind of like running through a museum and trying to do a critique of the art, however. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | My point actually was not meant to compare guitars. I was trying to pose the question what happens if all other external influences are blocked. If we had no perception of what the guitars looked like, how they felt in our hands, how much they cost, etc. would our ears hear things in a less biased way?
Dave
PS - Moody, I didn't have the A1 cutaway when you were here.
PSS - Talk about subjective! The same two people who agreed with me on the great sound of the 1587 also listened to some of my other guitars. Upon hearing the Collings remark from one person was "steller", and from the other "very ordinary". |
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Location: Colorado | Would surprise me...designed and built in the mid 70s verses later...a lot can be learned..even with the re issues - they were replicating something from 30 years ago. I'd like to think I play better now too...unfortunately - not the case. |
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Location: Colorado | I actually meant to say ---Would NOT surprise me...too quick on the click |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Can anyone really listen objectively? If they could, I wouldn't be trying to convince a jury of something this week. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Dave, it could also be the type of strings. I have kept records of my string changes for a few years on each guitar and come to the conclusion that they make a huge difference in the sound.
My 47 sounded good....but somewhat dull and a bit lifeless until I found the strings that brought her to life.
and like someone else mentioned, there is always a few guitars that become "special" regardless of the make, model, or price associated with it.
From a consistency standpoint of sound, build quality and mojo, I think the slotheads are probably the best.....but I also feel that there are more than a few individual guitars that give it a run for its money. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Hoo boy, here we go. The best sounding guitar? Of course, it's one of mine. Sometimes I think my 1614 sounds as good or better than my 1681, untill I play the 1681 again, then I play the 1614, then the 1681....etc...etc......... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | It is really hard to compare guitars like that. Is the 1587 broken in? Is the RI broken in. One of the reasons the original slotheads and specifically Cliff's sound so great, is they have been played for so many years that the tops vibrate and radiate REALLY well. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by Goober:
From my experience, your results are not surprising. It has been my experience that bridge placement has always been more important to the sound any given guitar design than the headstock angle or type.
A lot of great sounding slotheads have 12 fret neck placement to the body. Coincidence :cool: Dumb Question from the Uninitiated-- It is often said (and this makes sense), that the best placement of the bridge is in the center of the lower bout...
If that is true, why aren't more (if not All) guitars made with that configuration? :confused: |
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Location: SoCal | Same reason that people want cutaways.... more frets to play. Once you go to 14 frets, to keep the scale right, you've got to move the bridge. |
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Location: Scotland | That's why I ordered my Custom Folklore as a 12-fret cutaway |
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Location: SoCal | And why I bought a 1773LX and sold my 1674.....I went from 14 frets and so so sound to 12 frets and very good sound.... |
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Location: NJ | tuppy has tin ears
why listen to him |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Slotheads give a big heavy mass,was n`t it Leo Fender who discovered ,that by increasing the mass of the head,it would increase sustain due to prolonged vibrations through the neck ?! :)
Vic |
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Location: SoCal | Well said, Al.... |
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Location: Buffalo,NY | I don't know the two guitars that you are referencing as I have never had the opportunity to play or hear them . What I do know is that sound is very subjective especially when you are expecting a certain guitar to be "better " than another.
One of the best way to get around this subjectiveness is to listen to both guitars in a blinded fashion . I have done this with a number of amps and speakers and was really surprised how much my expectations influence my hearing. When done in a blinded fashion , I came to a different conclusion on a number of occasions.
I now try to just close my eyes and trust me ears. So if an inexpensive guitar sounds beter than a more expensive model, so be it and I'm not afraid to admit it any more !
But even doing this has its pitfalls because of the effect a room has on sound. But it still helps tremendously when you can't see what is being played and have to rely on only sound.
Regards,
Tom |
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Location: big island | i suggest conducting a blindfold hearing test with the participants and several different guitars at this year's tour. perhaps just to see if folks can recognize the sounds of the different guitars. |
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Location: SoCal | As I mentioned earlier, when I played Dave's 47of47 I thought it sounded better than anything else that he had at that time. That's part of the reason I'm getting an OFC guitar.
As everybody knows, I've played an Adamas I 12 string ("Big Blue")for about 11 years. I've always thought that it was the best sounding 12 out there. But I've never purchased an Adamas 6 string. I've played plenty of Adamii I's and II's, but I've always just assumed that I'm a wood topped kinda guy.
But in playing Dave's 47of47 next to various wood topped Ovations and other box guitars, I kept coming back to it as the best guitar he had. And I was surprised by that. I thought for certain that his custom built custom legend slothead wide neck would appeal to me greatly. But it sounded tame next to the 47.
Now I'm looking forward to playing his Adamas I cutaway. But I also know that what appeals to Dave doesn't always appeal to me. So we'll see... |
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Location: big island | i know that it would not be completely fair to judge a guitar by how it sounded on the tour dvds, however, i was unimpressed by the UTEs i heard and the 47RI. i decided to not buy a UTE after watching the video. the player was fabulous, but i heard "lesser" guitars on the video that sounded much better to my ears. no offense intended to those who love these guitars. just my ears doin' the talkin'. |
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Location: ranson,wva | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
It is really hard to compare guitars like that. Is the 1587 broken in? Is the RI broken in. One of the reasons the original slotheads and specifically Cliff's sound so great, is they have been played for so many years that the tops vibrate and radiate REALLY well. i play my adamas about a 2-3hrs every day. i figure in 25-30yrs it will open up..lol
ive only played 3 slothead adamas's but i have owned several slothead ovations and in my own opinion they just sound better. anyone who has doubts is more than welocme to play my old folklore at the tour...jason |
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| Dave's comments regarding the #47 reissue is a subject that I have wanted to address since purchasing one a couple of months ago. Not being a fan of the color red, I purchased the guitar solely based upon the "rarity" factor, and the "hype" that this guitar has received from other owners.
Up to now, I have reserved my comments in an effort to not offend anyone who thinks his #47 reissue is the best guitar produced, ever. However, now that Dave have dared to broach the subject, I will offer my observations.
Does the #47 reissue sound good? Absolutely. Does the #47 reissue live up to its' reputation. Probably. Is the #47 worth the price it commands? Certainly. Is the #47 reissue a "keeper"? At this point, I think so..
But, does the #47 reissue "blow me away"? No.
It is an extrememly balanced guitar that sounds good in any position and on every fret. The worksmanship is superb, and without a doubt on-par or better than that which I've seen in 36 years of collecting Ovations. And, in my opinion, tonally, it will rival any expensive all-wood guitar of any brand.
Several weeks ago, though, I acquired a 1981 Adamas I for half the price, that sounds as good or better than the #47, and it actually plays better than the #47, as difficult that that may seem.
But, it isn't really just or equitable to compare the two, because they are two completely different guitars. I like both of them for different reasons.
The bottom line is that tone is subjective. What sounds good to one guitar player may not sound good to another. And, to purchase a guitar sight unseen, based upon the recommendation of another person is a gamble any way you look at it. That's the reason that most of the guitars that I have purchased on eBay have been sold on eBay. |
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Location: NJ | I'm thinking more "galvanized aluminum" than "tin", Al . . . |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | A few of us had the opportunity to play and hear some very nice top-shelf models this past weekend. Included were two original slotheads (#42 and #43), a 47RI, an original ADI, a UTE, a 2080, an FD-14, at least one custom-made boutique 12 string, and I'm not sure how many others. From a player's perspective, I loved the 47RI and Fugot's #42. From a listener's perspective, they all sounded really great, especially in Elginacre's hands, but what really stood out was the remarkable projection of the 2080/12. Everyone present generally agreed. For pics, see the PEDPAFH thread. |
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Location: big island | muzza posted a youtube clip on the youtube thread last night showing an oriental guy playing a #47. the guitar sounds very nice and articulate in this clip. the guy does a nice job of playing a JT song. sheesh! check it out just to see his other adamii. |
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Location: Colorado | It's tough to A/B guitars...thanks for the nice words professor...there was a day I was much much better...maybe I'll start playing again...my point is..I've heard the same guitar in two very competent players hands - and guess what - it sounds different...has to do with pressure, precision, and mostly subjective preference...I listen for jangle, sustain, one that can stay-stay-stay in tune, balance, individual note definition, for A/Es - I need very quiet electronics, and gigable ruggedness...#43 has never - and I mean never failed me... I have heard other guitars, and currently own a couple which probably sound better - I'm sure if I put 20 years of playing on my Collings SJ, I'll love it too...but it can't have the yahoo stagehand kick the crap out of it an it not show a scratch and still be in tune. Dave is also right - and I've never met him or his collection - there are certain Martins which really sound great...so does #43 - I think we all at the Boulder get together were just priviledged to have all those guitars in one place..4 slotheads...one Ghia...5 new friends...great day. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | The Adamas sound does change overtime. I know mine has. Maybe wait 5 years for another comparison. Might be a fairer contest. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Huh? I thought a big selling point of the adamas concept was that you didn't have to wait around for years and "hope" your guitar would open up. Out of the box, they were supposed to sound exceptional, and STAY that way. Confused.
Oh well, lost in the shuffle is that both guitars that were compared were outstanding. Ones a 9.5 and the other is a 9.6. Not enough difference to fuss over.
Dave |
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Location: Tidal Mudflats of Virginia | Tup,
Glad to know that after two months, you're still off your medication and stirring the pot :)
Now, back on topic, #9 is still in tune since day one, after 7,000 miles, 8 countries, in and out of air conditioning to hot balmy humid tropical island weather. A little sand in the bowl, one island chief that couldn't stop grinning and played the crap out of it for 3 straight hours.
I have absolutely NO doubts, regrets or beliefs that I bought less than an A#1 quality built instrument that has many more years of joy inside!
As a side note, the Tornadoe also did very well and was well received as a "cool sounding electric guitar" especially out of a little Roland MicroCube. Thanks again ;)
Tim |
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Location: Colorado | That was my point Dave...I don't think #43 has changed any since the mid 80s....and Darren's waveform monitor at the mothership showed its signature had not changed...It has been very dependably great sounding....I ha ve not experienced any noticeable change or "opening up"
mark |
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Location: Japan | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Can anyone really listen objectively? If they could, I wouldn't be trying to convince a jury of something this week. Many can, and it will generally show in a personality that exhibits a natural sense of fairness.
If the facts are presented without spin or prejudice and the jury keeps their own preferences out of the decision making, no convincing necessary. |
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| Have yet to have the privilege of playing one of the slotheads, so I can't speak of them. But I am now the proud owner of four Adamas 1's. Two 1587's one with "Duel Side" sound holes and one with the "Single Side" set. Also a 1687 (Tony's) and a 1688 cannon.
Of the three 6 string guitars the 1587's are the best sounding to me acoustically. the duel side hole version winning that match-up. The 1687 has a slightly deeper sound to it and to me just not as rich acoustically. I found this odd actually?? but it is much better for some of the lower tunings I use. closer to the Baritone Adamas I wanted like the one Cliff has. So it is all a wash anyway. Each has it's perfect use for me.
The 12 string is a complete monster! I can overpower a whole room of acoustics with it!
Plugged in the 6 strings are all the same and each one is a traditional guitar killer. No doubt!
The fact that I have the cutaway option in the 1587's I had no need to own a $4k Adamas. I'll take these 4 Adamas 1's on stage for a long long time and be very happy with my decision not to go for the slothead.
With that said! It kills me every time I see one though, they have got to be the coolest dam looking guitars made. And the collectors value makes them a very, very good investment. Not very partial to the glitter, I think it was overkill, but they are certainly head turners, and I still hope I get to play one someday just the same. It would be hard to turn down an even trade for my new 1687-7 and one of my 1587's for one. !! These old textured top guitars are the greatest guitars made. But I sure won't be putting any more money into them, My hands have been filled.
Randy
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The best blindfold test we ever did was at a NAMM show and it was the 65 D-28 that lives at Ovation and an Academy with steel strings. They werer judged to be equal. The listeners really didn't know what was being played. Funny what your ears can do, galvanized or not.
I've kinda stopped doing the comparisons to find the best. I can't figure it out anymore. There is a level that is good or not but then I think it depends on many other things. An example is the Tak EF360SBG, the Merrill C-28, the 39 D-18, and another mahogony dread i've been playing. They are all A level guitars yet over the last month each one has been the best at some time when I picked it up and compared to the others.
It is interesting too that I never really loved the CW-28 Collings that Dave now owns. I tried really hard but never got there so sold it to him. I really like the Merrill but I think to his ears the Collings has an edge and the Merrill is a cut below. It's what keeps it all interesting. |
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Location: East Tennessee | Originally posted by Tupperware:
Oh well, lost in the shuffle is that both guitars that were compared were outstanding. Ones a 9.5 and the other is a 9.6. Not enough difference to fuss over.
Dave Very true. A lot depends on the strings, who is playing the instrument and the listeners ears.
Kind of like Olympic Diving or Skating competitions. 9.5785 or 9.6125.
Golf is so much easier. Its Birdie, Par or Bogey. |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | I haven't done a side-by-side A/B comp yet, but I owned a 1581 for a while that was spectacular, though it was only marginally better than my 1881 shallow body. The main difference to me was volume and bass end, which the 1581 deep body obviously had a lot more of. Absolutely awesome guitars, and both with Optimas were spectacular plugged.
That being said, the most incredible sounding guitar I've ever played on its own (without comparison right there) was an Adamas 1680 12-fret slothead. I don't know what the exact combination was that made the difference, but boy was that an incredible sounding guitar. Just to compare, I played every $3000 Martin, Taylor & Gibson in the room, and the Adamas just blew them away. Without comparing side by side, I'd say the 1680 was by far the best of the Adamas I've played, including the 1581, 1881, a couple SMT models, an older ADI, and a 2080.
If I were to custom order an Adamas at this point, it would probably be a 12-fret slothead cutaway...get the best of it all. |
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Location: Bangkok, Thailand | i owned 1587-5 and 1581-5
For my ears, 1581-5 (Adamas II reissue) sound better to me. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cwk2:
It is interesting too that I never really loved the CW-28 Collings that Dave now owns. I tried really hard but never got there so sold it to him. I really like the Merrill but I think to his ears the Collings has an edge and the Merrill is a cut below. Yeah, that's funny. You played the CW for me and then the Merrill and I thought you were out of your mind. 'course I wasn't gonna say anything until after we made the deal!
I'm thinking that I should just "rate" the guitars like they do the spruce. AAA, AA, A and the definition of those is pretty loosy-goosy. Goal would to to own all AAA's and one B to bring to the beach.
Dave |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The rating system is good but it will change from day to day. Some days a AA, some AAA, and some A. But that's what keeps it fun. |
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Slothead NOT the best sounding adamas ?