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Location: SE Michigan | Speaking of a week at the beach, I was thinking, why doesnt Ovation produce a low-cost no-nonsense Adamas? I'm thinking along the lines of the Elite-T but with a graphite top. Keep it basic but include:
(1) Texured top, black will do,
(2) Deep bowl
(3) Decent preamp, the OP-Pro would do fine
(4) LX neck
(5) No epaulets, just holes
(6) Spare all the other bling to minimize costs.
A lot of players (myself included) would like a great sounding mostly-synthetic guitar that is fairly impervious to weather and humidity. But I just can't bring myself to spend $1800 to $4000 on a beach guitar.
Ovation could beat CA guitars, Emerald, and Rainsong to the punch. Come out with a poor-mans Adamas and spare all the bling. Oh-yeah, I would like to see it for less than $1000. If they could do this I'll bet they would sell like hotcakes. |
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Location: Midland, MI | I think it's a great idea and I would seriously consider buying an 'EliteT-ified' Adamas if it were at or less than a grand. OTOH, I wonder how much a low-cost (retail) Adamas would cannibalize the high-end Ovation market.
Obviously, a certain percentage of high-end O buyers would switch to the low-end Adamas while the rest would stick to the high-end O. But, what would that percentage be? 10%? 20%? More? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | That's an interesting idea, but I'm just not sure how low cost they could do it. What you described is very similar to the Q597 (bare epaulets, OP50, no bling). It was about as bare bones of an adamas as you could get and I still think it was selling well above $1500. Just a guess, but I think it would surprise us if we knew how much ovation actually paid for the tops. I bet it's more than you think. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | probably won't see a new one but an Adamas II for $900-1,200 is possible, even an Adamas II 12-str. And, outstanding. |
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Location: Midland, MI | I wouldn't take my AII to the beach, though, Tony. :)
The Q is discontinued, eh, Dave? Not a big seller? I only vaguely recall any discussion of it here...what's the deal-y-o on the Q? Good? Bad? Ugly? I saw that black one with the sparkle paint on the back hanging in the repair shop and thought it looked pretty cool. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | After seeing the size and make-up of the entire Adamas division at the factory, I don't see how they can do anything except custom orders and semi-custom limited models. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I can't beleive I'm saying this...
What if they made it off-shore??? |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Now, really;
Here we are, touting the virtues of the "home-made" Ovations over the others, and now you suggest that the Adamii have half-siblings, too?
The overseas Ovations can't help the reputations of those made here; some of the ones I've played certainly haven't. (They really deserved to be flung from Jeff's little catapult.)
After awhile, there won't be anything really special about owning an Adamas--and if that's the case, why bother?
(Just my "I-think-you-might-have-struck-a-nerve" two cents...)
--Karen |
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm disturbed by my own statement.
I am in a generally pessimistic mood today so things like this feel like they are just bound to happen someday.
I think I'll go to my songbook and see if I can find a happy song to play.
I'm not privey to the cost factors but I think Brian's idea has merit.
If I want to take one of my good guitars out of the house, the UTE is the one I'd be less concerned over. |
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Location: Tennessee | The cost of carbon fibre has gone through the stratosphere, and it's getting very hard to get. |
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Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Blame those Brazilians. Soon as their Rosewood was all chopped up, they started chopping down their carbon fibre forests.
And if they're gonna make Adamii offshore, may I suggest Australia as a site for the new factory??  |
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Location: Australia | I'll second that! :D |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I'm sure carbon-fiber is expensive...
But Why? Isn't Carbon the most common element on that planet? :confused:
Just thinking out loud... |
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Location: SoCal | Why? When you can get a textured top Adamas from Al or one like this...the one Serge is playing - he recorded two tracks on his CD (when loaned)...now, it is his in trade for another Kaman product. And, trade based on less than a $1,000 projected value.
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
I'm sure carbon-fiber is expensive...
But Why? Isn't Carbon the most common element on that planet? :confused:
Just thinking out loud... Supply and demand...
The following is from a Bicycling Magazine article:
"Last April, airplane maker Boeing announced that it had signed a $6 billion deal with Toray, the world's largest carbon-fiber manufacturer, to supply it with carbon to produce its new 787 Dreamliner. This seemingly unremarkable announcement was big news in the bicycle world, where carbon is in increasingly short supply. Carbon makers will likely never shut off supply to any industry, including bikes. But there are only six major manufacturers of raw carbon-fiber filament in the world, and adding capacity to meet higher demand is expensive and time-consuming. And with no miracle material waiting to take carbon's place, demand continues to grow.
The Dreamliner uses more carbon fiber than any plane in history. Each of the 60-odd 787s Boeing plans to build each year will use about 23 tons of carbon fiber and 35 tons of carbon-reinforced plastic. By contrast, Trek, one of the largest carbon-frame makers in the world, buys just 212 tons a year. Additionally, Toray's forecast of the carbon market shows the biggest projected growth--from 27,000 tons today to 40,000 in 2010--is not in aerospace, but in industry: for automobiles and structures such as bridges and oil rigs. Demand from the sports industry is projected to rise from 5,000 to 6,000 tons; if it increases more than expected, some industry will feel the pressure.
Close relationships with carbon producers help the big bike makers. Rachel Buszka, sourcing and materials leader at Trek, says that company's collaboration with carbon supplier Hexcel goes back 12 years, and the two companies work together to develop carbon-fiber products that Trek can use in its frames. But, she cautions, "If you haven't built a relationship, you've got problems."
While strong relationships will preserve supply, price is beyond any company's control. Transportation and raw materials costs are rising, partly due to oil prices.
None of the bike makers we spoke with professed concern about availability, or that they'd be forced to redesign bikes with less carbon. But bike makers have already had to agree to higher prices to keep the supply lines open, says Eric Koh of Taiwan-based frame-builder Martec, adding that some suppliers "have short-listed the number of customers that they will continue to serve." The situation isn't at the point where carbon models from small makers will disappear, but a continued shortage will definitely lead to higher prices, and fewer bikes on shop floors.
Also, carbon bikes may look different. One shortage area in the last couple of years has been the woven top layer that most of us think of as carbon fiber. Because it's largely cosmetic, many builders now paint frames and use a small section of exposed weave as a window into the frame material. On the high end, builders may leave woven layers out and showcase the unidirectional plies." |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Sounds strikingly similar to an article I recently read about the Sitka forests in Alaska running out of old growth for guitar tops...kind of frightening how quickly we gobble up resources, isn't it?
I like the idea of a low-end Adamas, but really, after playing a 1778T for a while, it pretty well comes close on its own to filling the bill nicely. Streamlined looks, durable finish, good elctronics, and very nice acoustic sound. I'd way rather spend $650 -$800 on one of those than over $1000 on a virtually identical guitar that says "Adamas" on it.
Personally, I'd prefer to stick to the vintage market. Like Tony said, you can get a very nice used Adamas II for around the $1200 mark, which is probably as low as we'd ever see a bottom-end version new for anyway. |
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Location: south east Michigan | It sounds like "supply & demand" will eventually correct any current shortage.
And the quantity a thriving carbon fiber top guitar market would use is the proverbial drop in the bucket. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Slipkid:
It sounds like "supply & demand" will eventually correct any current shortage.
And the quantity a thriving carbon fiber top guitar market would use is the proverbial drop in the bucket. Unfortunately, supply and demand curves don't always move like they taught us in ECON101. I say we need to have some sort of law passed to protect our domestic carbon-fiber producers from off-shore pressures (low-wage countries, dumping, etc.) and maybe offer tax incentives for people who buy products produced with this increasingly rare, expensive material. :rolleyes: ;) |
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Location: Snåsa, Norway | If you want a cheap and sturdy guitar, I believe one should look to other materials than carbon fibre or wood for soundboards. Why not look for plastic? An all plastic guitar may sound like this .
Maccaferri made a plastic guitar more than 50 years ago, and materials have evolved a lot since then.
I recently posted a thread on Cool Acoustics but noone here reacted. If the guitars they make sound good, it could be a possiblity to combine their plastic soundboard with the Ovation bowl. If massproduced and sold in large series, I believe they could be really cheap and yet have good and stable quality. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | There was some guy making guitars out of old cigar boxes on Ebay a while ago. Now if only we could find a carbon fiber cigar box... |
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Location: ranson,wva | 1 word...academy.
multi hole it and shoot it with a textured finish,add a opp pup and good preamp. use a applesauce or celb type neck......jason |
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Location: CT | ...I'll pass. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jason is right on. Spray the academy top and put in some decent electronics. BINGO. My damn academy sounds better than half the wood toppd ovations I've owned!
Dave |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jason is right on. Spray the academy top and put in some decent electronics. BINGO. My damn academy sounds better than half the wood toppd ovations I've owned!
Dave |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I know there's a carbon fiber shortage, but exactly what's it made out of? Is it made out coal? Oil? Graphite? Shale? Wood? What is the raw material?
Carbon itself is pretty common isn't it? A by-product of burning.
I know it's a fabric set into a resin, like fiber glass, but that fabric ...? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | According to Cliff the majority of the carbon fibre supply in the US has been seized by the gov't to use as armor reinforcement to hum-vees used in the Irag war.
Dave |
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Location: Upper Left USA | ...and by limiting the production of the fibres (think Oil Refinery) the price can be maintained at a high index to the production costs. Most processes are highly patented and controlled as well. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Actually, I read the same article ...
So Carbon Fiber's made from oil? |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Maybe one of those 'Adamis' guitars listed on eBay.
:rolleyes: |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Looked it up and unless somewhere here knows otherwise, it looks like it's made up of 90% of some sort of petroleum, and another 10% of either another type of petroleum or rayon. Rayon is made from cellulose.
Also, I read that a $26 barrel of oil would make $126 worth of gas and $1700 worth of carbon fiber. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Academy Beach Guitar!
YEah!
(Don't forget the Bronze alloy strings to combat rust!) |
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Location: CT | Where is this $26 barrel of oil you refer to? |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | You have to travel back in time a few years to about September 11, 2001, just before the "war on terror" began. I didn't say now. Anyway, you'll find it there. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Carbon fibre comes from the Carbon tree which is native to, well I can't tell cause it's secret classified information, and then if I did tell I'd have to, well you know the rest....
Ask Cliff. |
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Location: big island | congrats on # 7000, bill! |
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Location: Japan | Originally posted by HobbyPicker:
If you want a cheap and sturdy guitar, I believe one should look to other materials than carbon fibre or wood for soundboards. Why not look for plastic?
I recently posted a thread on Cool Acoustics but noone here reacted. If the guitars they make sound good, it could be a possiblity to combine their plastic soundboard with the Ovation bowl. If massproduced and sold in large series, I believe they could be really cheap and yet have good and stable quality.
They look at least somewhat interesting and I'd be interested in playing one sometime, but if having the roundback was the only reason I play Adamas then I'd just get an Ovation. |
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Location: NJ | I vote AcademyBeach.
Phenolic top w/integral bracing.
Cutaway w/multi-hole(bass only).
Water-resistant preamp with .125" headphone jack. |
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| My son has been using his MOB47 at the beach and everywhere else for over 2 years now.. it often sits in direct sunlight in 90+ heat and over 60% humidity, and he wipes it down and shakes the sand out of it before he brings it home..(amazing how much just blows in through the soundholes). it stays strung with elixir polywebs, and gets restrung at least monthly when he oils the fretboard and polishes/waxes the finish.
still looks and sounds pretty good.
but I would still like to see something a little more impervious to the abuse.
Glenn |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | My 2002 Collectors (laminated top with top veneer) is the best-sounding guitar of all my Os....it just RINGS. I'm not worried about what material twists and turns that KMC may have to go through, I'm confident they'll find a way to make Ovation guitars sound great.
Roger |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Option 2;
Buy a $100 Ovation from Craigs list or Fleece Bay
and damn the torpedos... |
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Location: Nashville TN. | I doubt a cheap Adamas would effect wood topped Ovation sales. Adamas appeals to some people, and not to others. Personally I perfer wood tops for sound looks and feel. Others perfer the Adamas.
(insert different strokes theme song) |
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Location: NJ | yup first we want cheap tv's and cheap dvd's and cheap computers and cheap labor etc.
so we send everything overseas to get built so we got our cheap stuff but it is just that cheap. the cheap it gets the more disposable it is.
sun morning i head a news cast about how the dollar is shrinking and all these cheap things in these big containers coming to a port city near you will cost more and more. Guess what I may see it in my lifetime when manufacturing is economically feasible again to do in the usa. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Al, I think you're onto something....I've been thinking the same thing.
Roger |
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Location: Midland, MI | ...self-edit and sent as a PM to Al...
If anyone wants to know what I think about the economy and the (lack of) intelligence exhibited by ...nevermind...edit, edit, edit...GRRRRRRRR
:mad: :mad: :mad: |
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Location: Upper Left USA | For Christmas I gave my Wife a bottle of Dumbperionne (sp) champaigne because she cherishes the two times she survived life struggles and bought herself a bottle as a reward at the end of those events. It had worth and to those who claim to have a pallet for it, is definately set apart from the others.
She was surprised and pleased.
I personnaly find a $5 bottle of Extra Dry Brut from Safeway just as satisfying.
So...
You can slap a fibre top on a GLS bowl and call it good but according to my pallet I would miss the finishing touches that make an Adamas what it is.
I do not want to see offshore manufacture of the carbon tops. The design is sound and if the specifications are met it will be a phenomenal instrument.
But it would be wrong.
If everybody owned a 63 Split Window Corvette because they started making them out of Korea it would not be a 63 Split window Corvette.
It could be a really fun Daewoo though... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I'll second what's already been said, they should bring back a variation of the ACADEMY. That damn thing sold for $189. and made no pretense that it was anything other than plastic. But damn if it doesn't sound better than all but a handful of the wood topped Ovations I've owned. Dave |
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Location: NJ | Gee . . . where've I heard THAT before . . . . . |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Just smile & nod Cliff.
If we don't let him vent here he'll be up a belltower in Phoenix before sunset.... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cliff:
Gee . . . where've I heard THAT before . . . . . |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | It's been said by a couple of people |
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Location: CA | Good explanation of carbon fiber at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
Sounds to me like they just can't make it fast enough to suit present demand (thanks Boeing). I'm sure that will change with time.
RE: Adamas — I'm sure I'm in the minority and may be struck dead by lightning for saying this, but I consider most of the paint jobs on Adamas guitars as being stupid ugly, especially the sparkly ones. Looks like someone smeared childrens toothpaste on then clear coated it. The guitar Serge is playing in the photo may sound great, but the two-tone scheme is hideous. (No offense). So I would also welcome just 'plain paint' Adamas guitars. That said, I also own a 1778T that I am absolutely in love with and can't imagine ever wanting anything more. |
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Location: Munich, Germany | Oddball, just wondering - did you ever own one of those uglypainted textured tops?
Just curious - I had the same opinion as you for years, collected only wood topped ovations - with exception of one W597, that I loved (and love) for the bare, glossy laquered carbon fibre.
Then I bought the 1581 Reissue - just because of collector's reasons - and thought it was pretty ugly. It hung about half a year unplayed at the wall, then I thought, this fugly guitar did cost so much - I should have to play it. Then I heard it's voice - and I fell in love with it.
Since then I am addicted to these matte, creamy coloured guitars. Okay, I still don't like the blue ones - but other than that - beige and brown are looking awsome, even the red I like in the meantime, and know what: The broccoli heads of the Adamas I and Slotheads, that I thought was the worst invention ever left the factory - I love them.
There is something about the voice of these guitars, that let you even fall in love with their looks. Although you always thought, they are the ugliest guitars Ovation has ever made.
Kurt
If you say now. well, most of the Adamas guitars in your collection are black - that's just because my collection is not finished yet! |
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Location: SoCal | Oddball,
Some guitars are great wall art where you admire the intricacies and balance of the grain, some are admired for how they play and the "voice".
When you go with a textured top graphite, not a lot of choices for the finish.
Whether the Adamas was finished in Sear's Green Goblin latex or the stock finishes, the textured top Adamas I or II is a superb instrument. Personally, I like the -7 Adamas II that I traded to Serge and the -7 Adamas I that I sold to Randy. I have two early -7's that I will keep.
Originally, I wasn't excited about the -2 of the 47RI. Since I got it, I have no regrets...a beautiful finish. For the -8, you almost need a timeline as the finish has changed over the years.
For me, instrument 1st, then appearance. So, I can't really be objective. However, a number of wood box players did the drool routine when they had a chance to play the 47RI.
If someone doesn't get excited about the Adamas, fine. I'm not through buying or trading...less competition. |
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Location: Japan | Originally posted by Koenig Kurt:
Oddball, just wondering - did you ever own one of those uglypainted textured tops?
Just curious - I had the same opinion as you for years, collected only wood topped ovations - with exception of one W597, that I loved (and love) for the bare, glossy laquered carbon fibre.
Then I bought the 1581 Reissue - just because of collector's reasons - and thought it was pretty ugly. It hung about half a year unplayed at the wall, then I thought, this fugly guitar did cost so much - I should have to play it. Then I heard it's voice - and I fell in love with it.
Since then I am addicted to these matte, creamy coloured guitars. Okay, I still don't like the blue ones - but other than that - beige and brown are looking awsome, even the red I like in the meantime, and know what: The broccoli heads of the Adamas I and Slotheads, that I thought was the worst invention ever left the factory - I love them.
There is something about the voice of these guitars, that let you even fall in love with their looks. Although you always thought, they are the ugliest guitars Ovation has ever made.
Kurt I used to look at pictures of the Adamas (back when there was only one model) and think how ugly they were with the carved headstock and bridge. Then one day I went into the music store and there it was, in all it's ugliness.
Had to play it, because it was there, and to this day I remember getting ready to play a C chord and thinking how ugly the guitar was, until half way through my first strum... I need this guitar!
Well my first Adamas wasn't to come along for another few years and just out of the blue, the Adamas II came out!
Same sound, same everything, with no ugly carvings, for way less money!
Now I just got my first Adamas I last month and my beautiful SMT is retired from stage life!
I'm already used to that damn headstock now and dreaming of a Slothead with cutaway... |
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Location: CA | I appreciate and take all your comments to heart about Adamas sound. I've lived a rather deprive existence to this point in that I've never actually heard or played an Adamas myself. Like everyone else, I'm sure I could learn to love the paint job if it sounded THAT good. And I could always close my eyes and pretend it was pretty.
I just wonder why they don't at least offer them in non-Barbie color schemes. I'm sure it's just me. |
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Location: Munich, Germany | Did you ever take a look at these:
1681 brown
1689 brown
1881 red
These colours are great - you have to see them in reality. They do not have those baby colour schemes.
Kurt |
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Location: NJ | don't feed the troll |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Oddball:
I appreciate and take all your comments to heart about Adamas sound. I've lived a rather deprive existence to this point in that I've never actually heard or played an Adamas myself. Like everyone else, I'm sure I could learn to love the paint job if it sounded THAT good. And I could always close my eyes and pretend it was pretty.
I just wonder why they don't at least offer them in non-Barbie color schemes. I'm sure it's just me. I didn't understand the hoopla surrounding the Adamas, either, Oddball. I mean, it's a guitar with a carbon top. Big deal. Then I schlepped out to the OFC Gathering in May and heard more Adamases (Adamii?) than I care to count.
A week later I was buying my own. It's the blue burst color that seems to be disliked by some, but to be honest, the only color I see when I play it is walnut or whatever the neck is. I watch my fretting hand, not my picking hand, eh?
You have to play one. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | troll: In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.
Sorry, I don't see any trolls here. Just somebody expressing an honest opinion. That's why there are different flavors of ice cream, right? |
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Location: NJ | dvd
as administrator I can see information hidden to all other members.
this week I like peach. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by dvd:
troll... Quit trolling, Dave. :p
I'm kidding, of course. Are you going to pSeries/Linux in San Antonio in Sep? |
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| Originally posted by Oddball:
I appreciate and take all your comments to heart about Adamas sound. I've lived a rather deprive existence to this point in that I've never actually heard or played an Adamas myself. Like everyone else, I'm sure I could learn to love the paint job if it sounded THAT good. And I could always close my eyes and pretend it was pretty.
I just wonder why they don't at least offer them in non-Barbie color schemes. I'm sure it's just me. the lightning bolt hits you with the first big open chord! or it doesn't... but I don't know of anyone that hasn't exclaimed wow!! when they play their first TT Adamas.
Glenn |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by alpep:
dvd
as administrator I can see information hidden to all other members.
this week I like peach. I always thought you were psychic. Millions of peaches? Peaches for free? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Eat a Peach. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by cwk2:
Eat a Peach. Name that movie and win a...uh, three Jim Dunlop Jazz Stubby picks (1mm, red lexan):
"I could eat a peach for hours..." |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by cruster:
A week later I was buying my own. It's the blue burst color that seems to be disliked by some, but to be honest, the only color I see when I play it is walnut or whatever the neck is. I watch my fretting hand, not my picking hand, eh?
You have to play one. I had never played an Adamas until last Saturday...
And I always thought that blue-reverse-whatever was Fugly.
When I played one, it sounded awesome, and I said, "I gotta get me one of these..."
The rest of the quote was, "...And I oughta get it this Ugly Blue, so everyone will Know that it is an Adamas!" Cuz I haven't seen another guitar that particular color. :eek: (not quite that shade of blue) |
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Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | OMA, gh1 had a nice one he'd sell you as of a month ago. |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1889
Location: Central Massachusetts | Mark, that is the very Adamas that OMA played at the shindig that you missed. YSBT!
Cruster, no they don't let me get out much. Would love to meet you at the River Walk but it'll have to be another time. |
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Joined:
July 2007
Posts: 325
Location: Texas | NOOO - a low cost Adamas???? bite your tongue and say 150 Hail Mary's. (I am not even Catholic) :)
A low cost Adamas is like driving a chevy and saying it is a Lamborghini!! |
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Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 841
Location: CA | Never saw that definition of troll. I don't see how I could be considered in that category, or for the life of me what Al Pep might see "hidden to the rest of you" that would make him think that. For the record, I'm not 'baiting' anybody. As pointed out, just expressing an opinion. This is a great forum with interesting folks and I'm just as concerned as anyone else that it stay that way. |
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Ovation should make a low-cost Adamas