|
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | more specifically, any mechanics that are good with auto electrical systems?
here's my dilemma (head hanging in shame as i relate this story... :( :( )
three days ago we purchased a 2001 honda accord ex sedan, v6, in amazing condition for having 85,000 miles on it. the original owner is a service writer for a local honda dealer. he sold it to his aunt about 4 years ago and she traded it in for an acura MDX last week. i figured i would have to get the timing belt replaced soon and i was able to verify with the previous owner that it had not been done yet. the original owner had professionally installed one of those faux security system lights that flash neon blue on the dashboard, operated by a toggle switch under the dash. the car salesman told me he did not think the unit was functioning. i noticed that the plastic part of it on the dashboard that lights up was looking quite brittle and the adhesive around it had turned to a yellow powder from years of hot sun exposure. i was detailing the car yesterday and decided to remove the unit completely. to enable removing the wire where it was routed along the windshield seam and the dashboard seam, i decided to simply cut the wire. major blunder! sparks and smoke and acrid burning plastic filled the car. i scrambled to undo the battery cable before the car caught fire. by the time the smoke had cleared enough to see, the entire length of the wire had completely melted leaving the residue everywhere it was in contact with. i slowly removed all the affected wiring which was attached to that unit. i found that it was soldered to the ignition hotwire and grounded to the dashboard frame. i reconnected the battery cable. the lights come on, the horn and power door locks work, the clock works, but the ignition does not. the dashboard lights do not come on. anything that would function by turning the key in the ignition, does not. the ignition light (at the keyhole) lights up and the warning buzzer sounds that the key is in the ignition.
it was all we could do to afford getting another car and the thought of towing it to the dealer is frightening. the car is in the middle of our driveway. the steering wheel will not release. i know i can unlock the shifter and move the car but since i cannot steer it that would be useless.
any constructive thoughts, guys?
mahalo. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 1421
Location: Orange County, California | There are fuses for everything in that car. My bet is you blew one of the larger ones located under the hood. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | hi fred,
yes, there are fuses everywhere! i have checked the ones i thought would be related to the trouble. i will go back and check 'em all. thanks. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | any constructive thoughts, guys?
What on earth makes you think you would anything else around here??? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | desperation, brad. desperation!
all fuses check out fine. under-hood, driver side and passenger side. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | ". . any constructive thoughts, guys? . ."
Yeah, . . NextTime, cut the BlueWire first . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Fuse would be my guess. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | I'm not a mechanic, but I sometimes play one on the weekend. I think Honda went to an electronic ignition by then. If all the fuses are OK, sounds to me like you may have fried the ignition module. That could be pretty pricey. :( |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Or else you fried the ignition.
Professionally installed? The PO is a moron if he attached ANYTHING to the hot side of the ignition switch without using a relay or at the very least a fuse.
I'm glad that thing didn't short out when your family was on the road somewhere.
I'd call the Honda service writer and politely ask him what he intends to do about it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | i sold my 1581-7 thinking i was going to recoup some of the funds to pay for the car. now it seems those funds will be fixing my blunder...yikes! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Your description is pretty vague...
The wire that burned up went from where to where?
When it burned, did it short out or burn the insulation off of any other wires? Can you see it from end to end? Can you see if anything else was burned in the process?
I have a hard time thinking you blew a fuse. If you had, the wire you melted would not have gotten so hot. A more likely scenario is that you fried your battery. It might have enough juice to light the dome light and run the locks, but can't send enough amps to crank the engine.
What happened is you inadvertently created a short circuit when you cut the line. One of the two ends you created made contact with the car's ground...while the other end was still connected (electrically) to the positive side of your battery.
Here's what I would do:
1) Trace the path of the wire the burned up. Look carefully for anything that got burned with it. If it was hot enough to burn off its own insulation, it was hot enough to burn through insulation on any adjacent wires. If you see any apparent damage like that, you're screwed: Suck it up and take it to someone who knows what they are doing. The risk of making this lots worse is too high.
2) Assuming that checks out, pull the battery and take it down to a auto parts store and have it tested. If my guess is right, you will find that you killed some of the cells in the battery and you aren't getting enough amps to activate the solenoid on your starter motor.
Good luck!
ps: I agree there is a chance that you smoked the ignition module, but I don't think that's the most likely culprit. That module would be well fused. You would have to try pretty hard to create a short that flowed around the fuses that protect it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | jeff,
the wire that burned went from the small plastic unit that lights up neon blue on the dashboard and is routed to where it splits with the hot wire (red) being soldered to the thick white ignition wire under the dash just under the steering wheel. the black ground wire was attached to the metal dashboard frame. it was also then linked to the toggle switch. the burning wires were next to a series of other wires running to a harness, however, there is no detectable damage to any other wiring save some melted residue from the unit's wires. what is evident is that the wiring was next to one of the large grey plastic harnesses and left an impression on the outside of it as well as burning into the plastic casing on a flasher unit. i have eyeballed all other wires and see no visible damage. what if i tried jumpstarting the engine from another car? would that work as well as trying another battery? if some of the battery cells were damaged would it still function from a jump? if the battery didn't have enough cranking juice, wouldn't the dashboard display (engine/SRS/oil lights, etc.) still light up when turning on the key? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | First, don't screw around with the existing battery...pull it out and get it tested. There is a chance (remote, but possible) that its in a pretty dangerous state (imagine a bomb filled with compressed hydrogen gas and nitric acid). I absolutely would not try jump starting the car right now.
Beyond that, it doesn't sound that bad. As long as the damage was limited to the one wire, you are probably ok.
Take the battery down to your favorite auto parts store. Hope and pray that they test it and find it is blown. If so, a new battery should solve your problems.
If the battery is good, however, you are in a world of hurt. That suggests this could be something far more difficult to troubleshoot. Lets keep our fingers crossed for now and hope it doesn't come to that.
ps: Even though I don't think you blew a fuse, you have double checked all of them, right? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | jeff,
mahalo. all fuses checked, re-checked and some checked again.
i'll take the battery down later when my wife gets home from work. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2004
Posts: 604
Location: Tampa, FL | Anybody think it's possible that, as an antitheft (or somesuch) mechanism, the short might have left the car's electronics in some shutdown state. It might only require something like a reset code to reinvigorate the brain. Seems unlikely that shorting Vbatt to ground will cause circuits to 'blow'. Lan-man, have you looked past the point of attachment by the ignition switch and checked for any possibly burnt wires between there and the battery. You might also check for power at the ignition switch (the light is not necessarily indication enough). I expect you are looking for another melted wire someplace that you have not yet found. I'm a little reluctant to believe that you toasted the battery, those suckers can push a lot of current while cranking. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | chatman,
thank you. i had considered an anti-theft mechanism that would require some sort of code. i have inquired about this and the only anti-theft system in this car is the one that is factory installed. honda says the only reset code is for the radio and that there is none for the engine. the aftermarket light-up system that fried was just a deterrent and not a functioning anti-theft system. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | I was thinking it might be a security system lockout, but the power door locks work. You might be right about the battery. I have my own tester and would check it. It sounds like something might have got fried on the way to the starter.
You can also get a nonstart condition with a perfectly good battery, if the solenoid sticks. I've had cars that stick on and off. Jumping direct to the starter would tell that. Modern cars have too many electrical systems for me to figure out. I liked my old VWs. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2007
Posts: 318
Location: Slightly northwest of Trader Jim | The wire from the ignition switch to the toggle switch maybe the starter solenoid start/run wire.This is the wire that energizes the starter when you turn the key,some of those after market systems only disable the start side of your ignition switch.You MAY BE able to connect the original ends of the factory wiring (with the batt disconnected) and be ok. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | Gway,
i do not see where any wires were ever disconnected to install the aftermarket unit. it was simply soldered onto a half inch stripped section of the ignition hotwire. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1486
Location: Michigan | Lanaki,Lanaki,Lanaki, I feel for you.
Most newer cars have computers & sensors that will shut down fuel and electrical systems when tampered with when someone attempts to steal them,but they do not start melting wires and burning things up when that happens.When fuses blow they immediatley shut down power and do not normaly allow wires to keep burning & melting and cause the extent of smoke that you say happened unless it was an improperly installed item that was added to your car.
I would take it to an automotive electrical shop first and pay them the 1 hour labor rate to run a diognostic electrical check to tell you what is exactly wrong with your car and then get it repaired by them or a Honda Dealer.
DONT TRY TO OUTWIT THE CAR MANUFACTUERERS AT THEIR ELECTRICAL CAR GAME YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTIME( LIKE THE RADIO CODES).
THEY SET UP THE CARS SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE ELABORATE EQUIPMENT THAT NORMALY THE CAR DEALERS CAN ONLY AFFORD TO FIND THE PROBLEM.
Lanaki get your car fixed by the Dealer and you will pay once and drive that car the rest of your life on that little island that you live on.
You should find a Honda mechanic who wants to learn how to play a guitar as good as you and trade off lessons with him.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!! GWB |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 629
Location: Houston, Texas | Check the owner's manual to make sure you know where all of the fuses are located. They are not necessarily all in the same place. Often there will be a block of fuses for all of the individual circuits in the car, and a seperate one either under the hood or in the glove box for engine and other high current electrical systems.
But, my opinion is that you probably fried what is called a fusible link. I'm not that familiar with Hondas but most cars use them. They are usually very near the battery and come off the positive side, and instead of a plastic type insulation they usually are a rubber type of insulation. Sometimes they are marked fusible link, sometimes not, but otherwise usually just look like a wire.
You'll need an ohm-meter or continuity tester to check them. Disconnect the battery first.
Ignition module should be fine.
Good luck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 1421
Location: Orange County, California | Grasping at a distant memory of a 10 year career in high-end custom automotive electronics. I was the electrical shop the dealers used when ever something aftermarket fried, (and I can beat radio codes :D :p :D :p )
I still say it's a fuse. It probably doesn't look like what you're used to seeing (little colored flat plastic thingy). It may look more like a relay. Some were even mounted on a terminal strip in the under-hood power distribution block with 10mm headed bolts. *If* the key was on when it happened, it could have cooked the ignition switch itself... Everything else is fused well below the current rating that would cause any damage.
Use a test light. follow the smaller (10awg) wire from the + side of the battery to the plastic distribution box. check both sides of anything attached to that "buss". You'll find something that is "hot" on one side, but not the other.
Important: Check with the ignition switch ON!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Hi Lanaki,I really feel sorry to hear about your troubles,my guess would be that a relay ( solenoid`s coil has burned up ( fried),now,the best thing to do,is to have it serviced by a competent mechanic/auto electrician,it might prove to be the best and cheapest thing to do,please,do not tamper with it yourself,at best you could make things worse,and on top of that, it could be LETHAL !! ,stay with us my friend,I rather like you`re hanging around with us...several of us said : Take it to the repair guy,he`ll know what to do ,Now ,that`s Solid Advice !! :)
Vic
Afterthought..having made a living in Electrics / Mechanics,every so often did I get to work on amps.where some one had tried to "fix it himself" wich resulted in that I,not only had to fix the original fault,but also the wellmeant repair..now look at this swinging lock-it.. you will go see the repairguy...repairguy..repairguy.. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | You sold what????
Randy, Randy, Randy...
Seriously, my friend, I will keep this in prayer...I know its tough but there is a reason why we all go through these things...it will get better!
Blessings my friend! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | i am elated to report my good news!
my wife has a co-worker who is the facility manager for her building and he is into rebuilding and customizing cars on the side. he came over with his continuity tester and found the 50 amp main fuse (under the hood) blown. i had previously taken that fuse out and the car's clock and lights quit working. i put it back in and those things worked so i figured that fuse was good. not so. i just returned from the dealership with another fuse and all seems to be well. so fred, you were right on. the battery also checked out good, by the way. whew! how do you spell RELIEF???
thanks for your prayers, mike. this man, named gil, is a member of the christian riders and rodders club and was more than happy to drive to our home and check things out for me. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1486
Location: Michigan | NOW LANAKI WILL YOU QUIT CUTTING WIRES WHEN YOU ARE DETAILING YOUR CARS!!!!!!GWB |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | If the steering wheel will not release that leads me to think its in the lock and key switch. The lock and key and ignition switch are not the same but a lot of newer cars have a chip in the key itself. This makes for a more complex lock and key switch, one that could be fried. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Fantastic! Congratulations on a happy result! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | :D ;) :rolleyes: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Quote GWB : "NOW LANAKI WILL YOU QUIT CUTTING WIRES WHEN YOU ARE DETAILING YOUR CARS!!!!!!GWB "
That`s Good Advice Lanaki...stick to throwing Coconuts at rich tourists :)
Vic |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Glad you got that worked-out! That was an educational experience, huh?
It's a conspiracy I tell ya! They intentionally make these thing so you cannot fix them yourself. I hate working on anything newer than 1979!
My Mom's '98 T-Bird died cuz one of the cells in the battery died.
Had to go buy a new battery. No jump starts.
Repeat! No Jump Starts!
Any old GM 350 will start if you can get it around 10 volts, (and some starting fluid) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Glad it worked out for you Randy! Now you can use the money you didn't spend on another guitar! :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Just a suggestion
I bought an '88 Toyota Tercel that I had to put back in usable condition and, at my age, air conditioning is essential. I bought the usual manuals from car parts stores but was still in the dark, and I am an ex helicopter mechanic. I took a chance and went to a Japanese repair shop and begged a little and they printed out from their computer connection a detailed control schematic that cleared up many of my questions and filled in some serious gaps in the schematics that were in the manuals from Chilton and Haynes.
BUT, you have to find a kindly subscriber to those databases who will help you.
Good Luck
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | bailey,
aloha friend! and congratulations on your 50th. wow!
the other day, when i almost torched our car, i went online (eBay) and purchased a cd-rom that includes anything and everything, all schematics, etc. for it.
mahalo! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Congrats, Randy. I had a blown fuse once that controlled the vapor recovery vents, so I couldn't put gas in the car. I went to a car website, where a mechanic told me to check the fuses. Who would have thought that a blown fuse would keep you from putting gas in the ca? I never would have thought to go to a guitar website. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Mark and Randi..study your cars in theory,by all means,but !!....do not tamper with them !!...instead find a competent mechanic,and become friends with him..your cars will run smoothly ,without a hitch,and you guys will stay alive :)
Vic |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Too late, Vic. I've been working on my cars for my whole life, at first out of necessity, and later as a hobby. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Hey Vic! My philosophy is to only buy OLD cars...
All you need to fix them is a Hobo Toolbox.
Pliers, Screwdriver and a Brick! :rolleyes: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | For all
Today's mechanics are the samw people who cook your hamburger, you probably won't die from a hamburger, but, a plane that has been maintained by these idiots???? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| I hate it when fred's right. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Old buddy schroeder
Who the hell is fred
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Schroeder probably meant Fat Freddy and Fat Freddie`s Cat...or was it Garfield....?.. :)
Vic |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| mtnbikerfred. He kept saying it was a fuse, even when all the fuses seemed to check out. He has this annoying habit of being right.
He's also smart, funny and great company, but I wouldn't want him to hear that from me. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Schroeder
My dad's name was Fred and my midddle name is Fred, that's why I asked. Mtnbikerfred would probably always be right.
Bailey |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| :D
But I still wouldn't want fred to read this.
Is there ANY chance you could make it to CT for the Tour? I guarantee I'll be there if you are. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by schroeder:
Is there ANY chance you could make it to CT for the Tour? I guarantee I'll be there if you are. Is that supposed to be an incentive or a threat? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| How cruel.
And me your biggest fan. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I just wanted to know so I could make an appropriately witty remark. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 843
Location: CA | Glad to hear the good news that the prob is fixed. For future reference:
* the steering lock is usually mechanical and will release when the key is ignition and turned to 'on' — even if there is no battery at all in the car.
* I have owned several Hondas and Acuras and personally will ALWAYS take them to the dealer. The fix is quicker, usually cheaper (really!) and I know it's done right compared with repairs done by corner mechanic who in all fairness have only general knowledge because they need to diagnose and quickly fix any brand of car.
* In my experience, about 80% of aftermarket alarms, radios, etc. are just slammed in as quickly as possible by people who don't know what they're doing. Or care. Your experience is a perfect example. Cutting a wire should NEVER have resulted in it frying. But whoever installed it probably bypassed or perhaps eliminated the unit's fuse. Even 'professional' installers often cut corners like this. |
|
| |
OT: any auto mechanics on board?