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Location: Texas | I was in my local guitar shop the other day - they had a few ovations. I sat down to play and he questioned my decision to switch from collecting Eletrics to collecting ovations/Adamas guitars. He said he can't give away the ovations he has. I told he could just load them up in my car and I would take them off his hands - I came home empty handed though. :D
My question to the OFC - Why isn't ovation doing more to get their guitars in the hands of well known artist - In the 70's and 80's they had the market - Loggins and Messina, Heart etc.
The only well known player now is Mellisa Etheridge. Kiki doesn't count - I can beat a guitar all day too and I don't have to be a good guitarist to do what she does.
They basically let Taylor and Martin take over. Most of us have some very expensive guitars. If Ovation/Adamas doesn't return to the table and get their market share back, what does that mean to the value of our guitars in the future? |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | maybe artists are richer, and they afford to play on better / more expensive guitars?
maybe they want some "bling" that ovation doesn't deliver? come on, those "leafs" are crappy. old folk guitars from polish mountains had those leafs, and if you pay few thousand dollars for a guitar you want something that not only plays great but also looks good.
the other thing is that i prefer older ovations. i own '79 legend and neck is great for me. On my CP2002 (i know - celebrity) neck is mediocre at best. it's not profilled well.
i've played on a 4 ovation guitars in Polish shop (yes, we have a dealer for a few months!) - 2 celebs - 44CDX, CS...257?? and one elite LX and one Adamas 2080, and none of them were as easy to play as my legend.
Celebrities were set up awfully, with strings 5.5 mm over 12th fret and intonation way off
Elite wasn't much better, neck wasn't adjusted d there was a lot of buzzing, not to mention not working tuner in electronics.
Adamas was good, guite playable, but to be hones - for Polish price of 13,500 zl (it's my 9 months wage - about 4,500$) it's waaay too much. for about the same price there is taylor 914CE which is superior to this Adamas (to my ears).
i don't think Ovation need better artists, they need to make better guitars.
ps.
what is fair price for mint-condition 1986 Collectors? |
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Location: south east Michigan | I know it.
You know it.
We know it.
After almost 4 years of talking about it.
I know there's nothing gonna be done about it. |
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Location: Texas | You might have some good points but no one in the 70's and 80's had a problem with the leaf epis. I think it makes it a very special guitar from all other guitars whether it be Martin or Taylor that all look the same. I don't think it gay's it up as someone on the boards mentioned. :rolleyes: I know that remark about Taylors and Martins will get me killed lol - but it is true...they can use exotic wood and put some bling on it but they still all have the same basic design.
Old folks guitars because of the leaf epis? People can be like sheep....if one popular guitarist plays Taylor - they all play Taylor. Ovation and Adamas has some excellent high end guitars that can make some Taylors and Martins cry with their booming sound.
Celebrities and Applause are in a world of their own - Koren made- you can't compare those to the higher end models.
The problem - if you sit back just because you have the market - the market will take you over. I know- the company I worked for had the market share for 40 years and thought they could not be touched - well, they got touched - badly - for the simple reason, they were complacent with their marketing.
Ovation could get it all back by getting out there and getting endorsements from well known players. These younger players :rolleyes: could be introduced to these guitars and fall in love with them - just like everyone did in the 70's and 80's. Marketing people....marketing!!!!!!
Fair price for a mint 1986 Collectors - 600.00 and maybe a little more.
BTW - can't you purchase a guitar from the US - I know the shipping can be high and you have to pay customs - but wouldn't you still save money? |
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Location: Texas | Skipkid - maybe letters to the powers to be would help. I might be living in a dream world but someone has to shake that tree. These guitars are too damn good for them not to be in the hands of the top performers. |
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Location: SoCal | Vision, look thru the archives. You'll find this subject discussed ad nauseum..... |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | i've played on one '86 collectors and i love it.
in poland there is one in mint condition for $1200.
if someone on board would have one for sale for less i'd think about it, but i haven't found any on e-bay or sth. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | On the Ovation site, they have a video of Lacuna Coil.
Don't know where they are from, but they look like they are from Portland. :rolleyes: Or Seattle, some Caffeine-Junkie place. So I downloaded a bunch of their music. (listening now) It is listed as Gothic Rock. So I guess they will get famous, then commit mass suicide.
Anyway, I guess the PR boys got a clue.
BTW-- They ain't half-bad. Chick's Voices! :cool: |
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Location: Texas | Old Man Arthur - maybe I am out of touch but I never heard of Lacuna Coil. I will have to check it out however, this is not a house hold named guitarist. Help us Mother Ship!!!! LOL |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | Lacuna Coil IS famous. I've been on 2 their concerts in Poland |
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Location: Texas | I am sure he is but is he in the US? Jan Ackermann is an incredible guitarist from New Zealand - one of the best but how many people in this country know him? |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | i don't know if they're famous in USA, in Europe - they're. I've been on their concerts in '00 (??) and in '05, and i wait for another.
for me, if it comes to gothic they're in 1st league |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I can't believe I'm about to write this for the nth time, but here goes...
Ovation will never, ever break out of the malaise that thay have been in for the last 25 years until they get rid of the fucking plastic bowl. It is the one single thing that the majority of buyers state as their reason not to buy ovation. "It slips off your knee, it's doesn't sound woody, it looks cheap", whatever. Doesn't matter if those comments are true or not. If that's the reason someone isn't buying your product then you need to either live with it or do something about it. If you want to compete with Martin, Taylor, and the likes then you need to level the playing field. And don't give me this bullshit about parabolic acoustics and blah, blah, blah... To my ears (and I'm the one with the credit card in my hand) it's all a bunch of bullshit. I do (and have) owned plenty of guitars and if I rank them according to acoustic tone and "desire to purchase" from best to worst, the top of the list is dominated by the wooden boxes. So don't tell me you need a plastic bowl to make a guitar sound good. It ain't true. Quality control is another huge issue. The quality of some of the guitars that make it out the shipping door is just appalling. Would some paid endorsees help? Probably would. But I agree with a previous poster on this thread, better off to put your efforts into building a better instrument. If you truely want to be considered side by side with the likes of Martin and Taylor than do the obvious thing - build a similar guitar of similar quality. I know that Ovation has the skilled workers to do it. Get rid of that damn plastic bowl and buyers will give Ovation a serious nod. Otherwise it's just the roundback homos and oldtimers like us that'll be keeping the lights on.
Just my personal opinion of course.
Dave
PS - Get rid of that damn plastic bowl. Please. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Vision, go to the Ovation homepage, they got a clip of them sitting in an art gallery or someplace do a little gig. They're pretty good. And I'm hoping that they are getting FREE Elite T's.
edit-- My bad, it is a fancy shopping mall, and they are signing guitars and such. I had earlier seen Celebrity's on eBaaa "signed by Lacuna Coil". And I had never heard of them. I also have an attitude about signed guitar. I just wanna play the sucker, I don't care who signed it. And just cuz Melissa Etheridge signed a Celebrity, it is still a Celebrity. Now if she wants to give me a signed MEII...
Oh yeah, their music is on Underworld Evolution. (vampire/werewolf movie) |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | i think the best thing some company should start doing is inventing better bridge for acoustic guitar. i have yet to play acoustic guitar that has perfect intonation. when i can move saddles under strings, i can always set my electric perfectly, but on acoustic i have to learn how to avoid out-of-tune areas or sth.
examples:
Crafter ED50-CEQ:
differences between natural harmonics on 12th fret and pressed string on 12th fret:
E-0,22hz+ A - 0,17 hz+ D - 0,43+ hz G - 0,11-, B - 1,4 hz - (!) e - 0,33 hz-
Ovation Celebrity cp2002:
E- 0,11 hz +, A - 0,27 hz +, D - 0,16 hz +, G - 0,16 hz +, B, 0,3 hz + e - 0,67 hz +
i haven't tested my Legend yet, and it has old strings now (almost 2 months) but i expect average results from this guitar.
PS.
about comparing Celebrities to higher end models:
in Poland, CDX44 costs 4000 zl (over 1,500$) and CS257 costs 3299 zl (about 1200$) so they have to be competitive with higher end Yamaha's - CPX / APX, Furch guitars (Czech hand made guitars) and others, and they fail miserabely. i would buy CDX44... but for 1500 zl (500$), not 4000. |
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Location: Texas | Old Man Arthur, I did see their clip - they are good - when Jefferson said they were gothic, I almost cringed :) But they don't look gothic to me. I love Underworld - I will have to watch it again to hear them. :)
Dave - tell us how do you really feel. :) Look, if that f***ing plastic bowl is such a problem why did so many artist play them in the 70's and 80's and why are some still playing them in 2007? I have tried a very good Taylor and it doesn't come close to my #47 or even the Adamas MEII 12 string. Maybe my ears are not as evovled as yours but I think they sound better.
After seeing Lacuna play - lo and behold - they are sitting and I don't see them having a problem keeping the guitar in their lap.
There are things you can buy - slip resistant strips - there is also a piece you can put on the guitar to keep it close to the body or maybe not having a beer gut will help lol
If you hate them so much, why do you have them?
To say that it's just the roundback homos and oldtimers like us that'll be keeping the lights on.....that is pretty much insulting. IMHO |
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Location: Texas | PS.
about comparing Celebrities to higher end models:
in Poland, CDX44 costs 4000 zl (over 1,500$) and CS257 costs 3299 zl (about 1200$) so they have to be competitive with higher end Yamaha's - CPX / APX, Furch guitars (Czech hand made guitars) and others, and they fail miserabely. i would buy CDX44... but for 1500 zl (500$), not 4000.
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Jefferson - you need to take a vacation to the US so you can get those celebrities for a much cheaper price. :) |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | i wanted to go to a vacation to USA last year, but i didn't get visa. They didn't believe me that i really want to go to usa only to see Chicago Bulls in playoffs.
but now, since my GAS attacks are more frequent than ever, i don't think i'll afford vacation in USA. |
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Location: south east Michigan | To say that it's just the roundback homos and oldtimers like us that'll be keeping the lights on.....that is pretty much insulting. IMHO That's just Dave being Dave. It never hurts to have someone around that prods you to challenge your own beliefs. And wether at times he sounds like it or not, he is still an Ovation fan...... I think. |
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Location: Texas | Wow - you couldn't get a visa for just a visit - that is strange. We need to launch an investigation. :) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Wake me up when someone has ANYTHING new- or even interesting to add to this topic... |
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Location: Texas | That's just Dave being Dave. It never hurts to have someone around that prods you to challenge your own beliefs. And wether at times he sounds like it or not, he is still an Ovation fan...... I think.
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Yep, I know that is Dave being Dave but as much as he tries, he will not challenge my beliefs that ovations are great guitars. :D
I am glad he isn't a fan of the Dallas Cowbys, I would hate to hear his review on them LOL |
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Location: Texas | Well Jeff - I have only been on the site since July - I didn't know there was a massive discussion in the archives. My Bad :eek: Besides, it is dusty in there. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Okayy...the Lyracord Bowl and the EPI`s are the signature of a TRUE Ovation,CFMartin is manufaturing plastic boxed guitars that look like wood,I expect that in time,the color will wear off ,imagine how they `ll look like then..?!..the complaints about the set-up on a New guitar are Unfair !!...Any New guitar has to be set-up properly when Purchased,that goes for Any guitar,incl. Martin`s ..in another thread TraderJim mentioned eventual differences in sound by adjusting saddle-height,Hmm...first adjust Neck / Nut / Saddle = Playability.....then : adjust Tone by choice of strings / gauge / type / etc. ..and the Ovation box(incl. the deep-bowl) is much smaller than a Dreadnought,but why stop there..?..compare it to a Jumbo..a Cello even..Yes,gauge 12-54 on a Dread will be "fuller sounding" compared to a deep-bowl,but,ever tried to stack several Dread`s against oneanother(strung with the same string/gauge/type/brand),only to notice the Difference in sound..?..perception of Sound is a rather individual something,but Technique can be a different matter,where an Ovation really Shines,is when it is used with Amplification,it is the most FeedBackResistant acoustic that I know,Sure..there are electronic gizmo`s for sale that can fight feedback better than Paris Hilton can tackle a shoestore,but how will those affect the sound of a Martin/Taylor/Gibson(that bunch of carpenters) ,or Larrivee (talk about something real good)..the Ovation`s that I have,1537 Elite sunburst (1983)..1618 Legend natural 12 string (1982)..1617 Legend sunburst (1976)..have vol./tone only,Plugged into an Amp. ,meant for Electric guitar,they still sound like Good ,feedbackresistant Acoustics,I dare say,that Ovation`s are The Best A/E guitars on the market,which brings us to "Marketing"....sometime ago I wanted an Ovation Jumbo,and mentioned it here on the board,I argued, since that many other makes have "Jumbo`s" on their repertoire,Ovation should have one too..I still want one !!(looking with halfaneye at retired gasstation-owners)..ah,Repertoire,good word that,imagine the rolling pebles playing "STRAUSS"..actually,a famous ,FAMOUS!!RockBand Deep Purple has played with a symphonic orchestra,but what came of it ??..they are still known as a rockband,..!!..Loose the Bowl..??..Chuck out Innovation ..??..and then what,make Dread`s the "Old Way"...with an Ovation-twist perhaps,maybe something like..half of the braces chunky,and have the other half "scalloped",paint some birds on it,or the counterfeit of arnie schwarzenegger...options Ad Libitum..!!..Yet I agree with Dave ; Dump the price !!..I wanna get a few more ..!!..(incl. a Jumbo)..what exactly is the complaint about..??..is Ovation about to be bankrupt ?..just asking :)
Vic
..Any-one who can play like Kaki King has my Deepest Respect.. ( and Envy) |
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Location: Texas | THANK YOU VIC....I think I love you LOL :D :D
Ovation will never go bankrupt as long as there are....in Dave's own words...roundback homos and oldtimers like us that'll be keeping the lights on. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Dave, took your advice and got rid of that damn plastic bowl..Life is good!!
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Boy, this thread took a nasty turn...
I like Ovations, cuz I like the round back. It's comfy.
I can plug it in if I want to, but I don't have to.
As far as being Top-of-Line exclusive guitars, that's why I have so Many Celebrity's.
I like the idea that Ovations are Affordable. And "Working Man's" guitars.
[One of the selling points of my 1312 on eBarf is that you can take it to the Park]
I believe it is really cool to see famous musicians playing O's... But that ain't why I bought an Ovation.
Some dude had an Ovation in 1971, and I liked it.
And I think Kaki plays neat. I won't ever play like that, or that kind of music, but she's cool. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Wow, I try to take a day off and look at this:
Ok, here goes:
I have played guitar for most of my 55 years (42 to be exact); I have played and owned just about EVERY brand ever made...you name it; I have either owned it, played it or have it now...but I don't own or play junk...my professional career (which took me to 47 out of the fifty states, twelve foreign countries, cruse ships, and stages from Podunk Holiday Inn America to the Grand Old Opry in Nashville, recording with some of the finest musicians and songwriters) for the past 30+ years has always included Ovation Instruments...usually either Pacemakers or Elites. I also own some fabulous high end wood guitars as well as a nice number of Ovations and Adamas instruments...Is there a difference between Ovation and the others? Of course there is...Do the others sound better? That depends...Acoustically, it is hard to find an Ovation that holds its own with wood guitars (although I particularly like them; esp. the 12's)...BUT where the Ovations and Adamas guitars really shine is plugged in...I have yet to find a wood guitar that consistently sounds as good as Ovations do when plugged in (providing that someone knows how to set the PA or amp and doesn't play them too loud...finesse goes a long way in amplification of A/E guitars...
Ovations have held up in situations of environmental extremes that my former Martins and my present Taylor’s could not and can not likewise endure...and most of the time they stay in tune...
Many, many people are simply in the amateur category of player and that’s fine...many others are just collectors, and that’s fine too...I PLAY MINE...ALL OF THEM...WHATEVER BRAND AND HOWEVER COLLECTABLE...THEY GET PLAYED OR THEY GET SOLD...THAT SIMPLE. I have depended on my ear for my living playing music since I was 22 years old...I quit playing professional paying gigs in 1993...but I still play my guitars every day, and in the public eye every week. I feel confident making these statements and trusting what sounds good not only to me but to the audience as well. There is not a time that I play either my 1758 Elite 12's or my Adamas I or 47 RI that someone doesn't come up and marvel at the guitar with the round back...It opens the door to tell them about the company, the product, and the construction...you see I know about that stuff and I am passionate about that stuff! BTW, a guitar strap solves most of the issues and complaints...In fact, Ovation has even provided STRAP BUTTONS to attach them to. Anyone complaining about the wood guitars sounding better than a round back need only listen to the OFC copy of the Marcel Dadi and Jean-Felix Lalanne concert DVD of the 1988 Olympia Concert...Jean-Felix played a custom built rosewood classical (muchoo denarius) and Marcel played an Adamas...Close you eyes and try to pick out which is which...very difficult; and the sound is fabulous to say the least...I love my High End $3,800, $4,400, and $5,200 Top of the food chain Taylor's...my old equally expensive vintage Martins were great as well...BUT, I love my Ovation and Adamas guitars just as much if not more...they deliver, look great, play as good as I want them to, and did not cost me (with the exception of the 47 RI) anywhere near the price of my others. I've said it before, "Variety is the Spice of Life", and this "May not be your cup of Tea", but its been mine for 30+ years and I am not about to change now...Market share...long term collect ability?...endorsee's? Well, I've remained an endorsee since 1989: I am not famous and I did not ever get a freebie for doing that...I do it because it’s a GREAT GUITAR...and those of us on this forum KNOW IT! Why not the rest of the world? Well, we just need to do a little PR ourselves instead of sitting on our circumstances and waiting for the Mothership to do it all for us! It’s called pride of ownership! Issues? Of course, we've all seen them and I have experienced them personally...but by and large, at the end of the day, I still go to my Ovations for a gigging guitar...and take along whatever else I feel safe to take. “Oh ye of little faith”…Gee, haven’t I heard that somewhere before……
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Thanx Mike... At Last, The Voice of Reason.
(just some folks "Trolling" anyway :rolleyes: ) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Mike, as usual I love and respect every word you write. This is a FAN club and you demonstrate the true meaning of the word. A true ovation fan who speaks from years of experience. I doubt that any of the 300 or so active members here could find a single thing to disagree with you about.
My only point is/was that the major objection raised by most buyers for not choosing Ovation is the plastic bowl. Weather I like or dislike the bowl myself is not the issue. I really believe that if they got rid of the bowl it would be a better selling guitar. Would it be a BETTER guitar? To the fans here at OFC probably not.
Please don't anyone accuse me of being an ovation hater. I've owned 97 different ovations and all have been special in their own way. But I'm not so blind as to ignore the big picture as I see it. And the big picture is that Martin, Taylor, etc. sell a hell of a lot of guitars and get a hell of a lot more visibility than Ovation does. Go ask yourself WHY. I gave my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.
Dave |
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Location: Australia | I wouldn't be crying any crocodile tears for Ovation any time soon.
They still seem to be selling fairly significant numbers of guitars and are one of the most recognised guitar brands in the world.
There are many other acoustic manufacturers who would like the same standing in the marketplace.
Ovation used to be "the" acoustic/electric guitar and were very popular.
Today they're the roundback guitar and are very much a love/hate thing to most players.They look, feel and sound different.
Ovation is the roundback guitar and that will never change.
Most players won't buy one or even try one but you can never be all things to all people. |
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Location: SoCal | By the way, I would rather have the 47RI than a woodback guitar. I have no problem with the bowl and appreciate the fact that when I bump it I don't lose $300 of value.
As to artist relations:
What we all have to understand, including the old folks (those with member #'s less than 1,600) is that we have new members. Not sure if "lack of marketing" or "what strings to I use" has been discussed more.
Kaman has an individual responsible for artist relations (David Vincent). How aggressive their effort is - let's not go there.
Yet, an artist like Serge (Country Artist, San Antonio) isn't even listed even though Martin and Gibson feels him worthy of their time.
CWK2's common response to this is "click".
Marketing is more than an artist...for years, I never considered an Ovation even though I watched Glenn every week. My dealer (Marty's Guitars in Portland, Oregon) brought a 1158 Custom Legend slothead 12-str up to Portland from NAMM. He said "You will play this". Note, he didn't say you should. Seeing Glenn and guests play the Ovation weekly gave me confidence but it was the opportunity to pick up and play the guitar that got me to switch from Martin. The dealer was why I made the switch. Artist was a small part of it. As he is probably deceased or out of business, the fact that I paid 54% of retail helped. Lousy inventory and placement/promotion equals lousy sales. Lousy sales equalls poor dealer support.
In the SoCal area, we have an aggressive Kaman Rep. Well, unknown how aggressive except the staff at the La Mesa/San Diego Guitar Center and San Diego Guitar Trader know his name, know who he is, and speak well of him. Both stores - good inventory, good placement of guitars and marketing material/displays, and knowledge. Guitar Trader has strongly supported Matt's Chop Shops. Guitar Center and Guitar Trader staff get to NAMM. Several times, our Rep (Joe Montoya) has brought their staff over to introduce me as a member of the OFC when I was at NAMM. At the Chop Shops, Joe has introduced those from the OFC and thanked us for our support.
Notice that I said Kaman Rep. Even if Kaman had a strong artist relations, there a lot of products that are represented (to include Takamine). How much time and effort is applied to the Adamas and Ovation guitars?
Does it go further...divest the US production of guitars from Kaman. Focus on providing top of the line guitars from Adamas and Ovation ...mid to low be a separate line. Celeb is a separate line but not enough differentiation from the Ovation. Heck, a Cleb even says Ovation on the headstock. Have reps that either get sales from a dealer or pull the old stock out. How many dealers only display the Celeb? We even have pawn shops and pharmacies listed as dealers. For those dealers that produce, work with them, help them. How many advertisements have you seen supporting the product and producing dealer. In the '80's, I subscribed to Acoustic Guitar. Started it up again last year...how many advertisements? NONE.
So, unless Moody admits to knowing more than three chords or "pigs fly", nothing will change.
As I look back since I joined the OFC, I have bought or traded a number of older and new Adamas and Ovation. So many, I need a larger house. I am a supporter that doesn't care what others feel are equal or better. Rather than a BMW, my second car is a Alfa Veloce Spyder...similar to having an Ovation/Adamas than a Martin or Taylor. |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Dave,...
I doubt that anone here considers you to be an "Ovation hater",I certainly do n`t..!!..but the bowl,apart from being a trademark,allows Ovation to focus more attention to other parts of the guitar,notice allso ,that remarks were posted about the (too)slim neck of the O`s,..others offer choice in neck/width/shape ,but so does Ovation ,this company is a young one (compared to other makes),yet innovation is a key point in it`s existence,the way I see it ,is,that these treasures are different from other makes,for a reason,where other makes have beautyfully made "backs" and "sides" we have the bowl,you have seen that beltbuckles,suspenders and the like can severely scratch/damage woodboxes,I do n`t care much about the bowl`s appearance,do you remember that in the old days the O` was billed as "the Strongest guitar",Charlie Kaman knew the short comings of guitars ,with his technical background he built a guitar to "do away" with those problems,only to encounter many other new ones,dispensed with some of those,and the result of his endeavours we wittness today,something with a distinctive "fingerprint" if you will,my previous post ,together with MusicMishka agree with you ,in that,a Good Dreadnought Acoustically might/could/would even surpass an O`,but an O` is indeed meant to be a Universal instrument plugged/unplugged with its own "character",improvements,custom jobs and the like all use that what sets the O` Apart ,from ,shall we say, "mainstream" guitars,now , I do understand that it has become a little tedious to handle that friggin Bowl,so I would propose that Ovation perhaps could make woodboxes as an Addition to their existing (main)line,throw in a "Jumbo "even ,and in the process revert back to their philosophy of "STRONGEST GUITAR",like bolting bridges again (by now we`ve seen ghastly pictures of bridges being pulled of),and perhaps rigorous testing of electronics,( we`ve allso heard too often of electronic breakdowns )would you consider that a viable option,what do you think.. :)
Vic
..and perhaps review quality control,MusicMike seemed genuinely disappointed.. |
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Location: SoCal | Kaman WAS the innovator by breaking away from the all wood guitar and introduction of the pre-amp. Where do you go from a graphite top. Notice that other guitar companies have integrated what Kaman did many years ago, even Martin is offering low end artifical material, Lowden and others are using compound v. wood.
We have seen that the hand laid bowl is still the #1 (high cost). For mass produced guitars, there is nothing wrong with the contour...nice upgrade. Op series (OP-Pro, Studio, and VIP) can be improved but the basics (LED tuner, EQ, etc.) are excellent improvements from what I have seen.
As long as Kaman distributes Takamine, doubt if we will see a US made all wood guitar...cost a big factor, distribution contract a conflict.
Interesting discussion with an individual repairing my ceiling - his uncle has a shop and builds guitars in TJ...Taylor uses him to assemble some of their guitars...and not the low end. Will Taylor and Carvin move ops south to save costs? Heck, Buck Knives moved from El Cajon to Idaho to save taxes and workcomp, as well as allow employees to live in a lower cost of living area. Tough when median cost of a home is about $500,000 for a thirty plus year old 1,500 sq ft.
What I am saying is basically that an affordable, well playing guitar made in the US will soon be a rarity. The market, if there is appropriate marketing, will come back to Ovation/Adamas.
Appropriate marketing - great product in the 47RI...we knew about it, first pictures from BroBobby's eBay listing but did anyone that buys other brands get a chance to play it? Is it a production model? When I took it over to Guitar Trader (for Matt's Chop Shop), the staff went nuts. When I took it to Moze Guitars (authorized Martin, Ovation, Hamer repair and the place to go to), they went nuts. Yet, first time they could hold it, to play it. Ovation...oh, that plywood Celeb...no way. |
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Location: SoCal | Quality control? Amazing...I have had in my hands five 2004 Custom Legend (anniversary) that were excellent. I have special orders for Adamas and Ovation (all 12's are special order). The 2005D, 1687 RI, and one of the first 47RI (003) were all excellent.
Yet, those that had the early U681T had to send back...yes, a member of the OFC at the factory does wonderful work. Now, a 12-string Ute wasn't returned to the OFC buyer for many months. We have seen Dave's pictures.
Yes, I have confidence in their quality control but I will cross my fingers when I order.
Maybe a limited sample but I have not seen these problems with Martins, Larivees, or Taylors that I have owned or seen displayed in stores. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | You know, every brand has its following, and every following has its idiosyncrasies.
In the case of Ovation, there seems to be a certain insecurity...a perception of not being respected.
To which all I can say is WHO CARES!!??!!??
I don't have any sense that Ovation is going to fold up any time soon*. The guitars that we like are going to be around for a long time to come.
This thread presupposes that Ovation has a "marketing problem". I don't think that's fundamentally true. I think the guitar marketplace has a pretty rational view of what Ovation guitars are all about. Ovation's are not misunderstood.
As to the idea of abandoning the roundback, that makes no sense to me. For better or worse, the roundback defines Ovation. Wood box guitars sell better these days. No problem...that's why Kaman added Takamine to the line. Wanna wood box? We got you covered!
Ovation is a singular thing...can you think of another company that has established itself in the unbelievably conservative acoustic guitar market with such a non-traditional design? This is a market where Martin fans and Taylor fans argue about bolt-on vs dovetail neck joints. Where wood-sniffers wax eloquently about the differences between Brazilian and Indian rosewood. Where people argue and debate the tonal differences of Tusq vs ivory bridge pins.
Considering that environment, the sheer audacity of the Ovation design becomes clear. CK and his team deserve a ton of credit for trying something new and making it work. There is precious little of that in the guitar world.
*In fact if they got close to that decision I'd like to know because I'd step in and buy the company, but that's another story. |
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Location: Texas | Jeff,
You hit the nail on the head - innovation in their design and it works. I purchased my first ovation over 30 years ago - what drew me to that guitar over all the woods - it's design and it set itself apart from all the rest. The sound was amazing as I compared it to all the other woods that I played that day. The ovation won....for looks and sound.
That doesn't mean that I do not appreciate wood. I collect electric hand made guitars - all show the natural wood from zebra, purple heart, paudak, burl redwood etc. It makes them exceptional and also because their design is different from Fender, Gibsons and PRS. Just as good as the major brands but unique.
That is why I love the Adamas and Ovations. Design, innovation and sound. CK was ahead of his time. To find a guitar that is thirty years old and still in excellent condition and playability will be his legacy.
Wood guitars....will the shrinking availablity of exotic woods put an end to beautiful Brazilian and other exotic wood guitars......not sure but it will increase the price dramatically and will it be worth the cost? Here is an article from the owner of C. F. Martin.
Christian Martin IV is a member of the sixth generation to run his family's renowned guitar-making business, C.F. Martin & Co.
But he is surely the first to worry about the shrinking availability of the distinctive woods used to build Martin guitars, the choice of artists like Sting, Jimmy Buffett and John Mayer.
As old-growth forests have been razed and tropical species like mahogany, ebony and rosewood have become endangered, guitar makers like Martin, Taylor, Fender and Gibson have had to rethink the notion of an inexhaustible supply of the desired woods to make their instruments. As small privately held companies, these instrument makers have banded together to join the burgeoning corporate social responsibility movement, partly to ensure their long-term survival.
"If I use up all the good wood, I'm out of business," Martin said. "I have a two-year-old daughter, Claire Frances Martin, and she can be the seventh generation C.F. Martin. I want her to be able to get materials she'll need just as my ancestors and I have over the past 174 years."
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Obviously, the price of a C.F. Martin et. al. ,that are made of these exoitc wood, will dramatically increase in price or they will have to find an alternative material to use. C. K., without knowing it, designed a guitar that will not be subjected to shortages in exotic woods that are so sought after. In the process, he designed a guitar that rivials Taylor, Martin etc in sound.
Marketing? I was in sales for 24 years and I understand the importance of knowing the exact type of plan to impliment to increase sales and grow loyal customers. I still think that is a problem with Ovation. Some where between the 90's to the present, they stopped seeking out performers that could show case these guitars to millions and bring a whole new customer base to this beautiful line of guitars. JMHO |
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Location: NJ | blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, . . .
If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!!
It was DESIGNED to fulfill a specific need.
It’s DONE that (very well, I might add) for 40 years.
“. . They don’t get the “respect” . .”
From WHO???
The jaggoffs that slide it out from under the bed t’noodle a couple cowboy chords for an hour,
sniff some expensive, exotic wood, fretter over the humidity, and tuck it back way until the next opportunity?? F@ck 'em!
There are PLENTY of brands out there who's necks need constant attention and pampering to occupy their time with.
I, for one don't have time to dick around with all that. If all I did was at-home musical masturbation, maybe.
I've got FOUR guitars that pretty much EVERY weekend go from my garage to my car, from my car to my office, from my office to my car, from my car to a gig, from the gig to my car, from my car to my garage. Lather/Rinse/Repeat. Pretty much Every Week.
No problems. No issues. No constant between-song "fussing" that I see COUNTLESS colleagues with their oh-so-fragrant Brazzy-backed, cigar boxes with toasted-wheat braces have to contend with. I'm ALWAYS getting comments from venue management and other players that my guitars were some of the best they'd ever heard in that particular room.
THAT's the market they're after.
Not the Weeknight Wanker.
For YEARS, Land Rovers were the dependable vehicle-of-choice in some of the most remote, inhospitable areas of the globe. Now, their target clients are latte-sucking, vapor-headed SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap while they circle inCESSantly around the block because they can't parallel PARK the f@cking thing!! (My town is overRUN with them!)
Did they sell more vehicles at a higher price point? Sure. Is it the same vehicle?? Last I checked, a driver's side airbag won't stop a rhino, and you can't fix a fried ignition module with a bootlace and duct-tape in the middle of Kalihari.
Ovation screwed up (royally) by making all of their entry-level guitars look exactly like their top-of-the-line models. Their website has been a continual JOKE for a NUMBER of years. Having a necktie constantly around your neck for so many years causes you t'lose sight of things after a while. The in-store marketing of Ovation sucks as well. KMC needs to flex some of their distribution muscle.
Their guitars have improved expoNENtially over recent years, and if they fix some of the above issues, I think they'll do great.
Dumping the bowl for a box is like smacking yourself in the head and saying "Wow! Everything we've been doing successfully for the past 40 years has been "wrong", and we're just gonna get in line and follow suit with what everyone ELSE is doing". And I'm sorry but putting a box on the back of an Adamas is like pulling the fibreglass hull off an America's Cup racer and replacing it with one from the Amistad.
If y'wanna "box", buy a "box".
There's PLENTY of woodbox-related websites out there to CircleJerk on . . .
(btw: Jimmy Buffett and John Mayer have the absolute SHITtiest live acoustic guitar sound I've ever heard . . .) |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Nicely put Cliff! |
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Location: NJ | . . . and anOTHER thing:
click! |
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Location: south east Michigan | IMHO, I don't big name endorsers can have the impact the used to. The music industry is so fragmented in to much dis-aray to get much result from any one name. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by cliff:
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, . . .
If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!!
:D :D :D :D :D |
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Location: SoCal | I don't think I would have phrased it the way Clifford did, but I agree with what he said.
The other think to keep in mind is that Ovation sells everything they build. It's not like they've got inventory sitting around..... |
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Location: south east Michigan | SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap Personally, I find that very attractive. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | I don't know numbers for s**t after all, I'm a salesman, but don't Ovation sell everything they make? Don't folks have to wait a pretty long time for custom orders?
I wouldn't think market share is a problem, if you sell everything you make.
Ovation was never the #1 popular guitar in the world. They were once, and to a large extent remain, a quality innovator.
I, for one, hope they never become more popular than they are right now. I also wish certain rock stars wouldn't rave about the quality of old Ovation solid bodies and drive up the price until they go out of fashion.... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Cliff, that is one of the most succinct posts on the topic I have seen in some time.
Thanks |
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Location: NJ | quote:
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SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap
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Personally, I find that very attractive.
Brad;
There's a couple of websites I can refer you to . . (hubba,hubba) . . . |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cliff:
If y’don’t like the “plastic” bowl, don’t BUY the f@ckin’ thing!! Good point.
No guitar will ever be all things to all people. We shouldn't persecute those who buy wooden guitars even if it is only to strum 3 chords and sniff the rosewood. Nor should others criticize ovations for what they are. Guitars are just all different tools for different jobs. Play what makes you happy because life is too short to do otherwise.
I stand by my opinion that ovation would sell more guitars if they were a "me-too" design, but to their credit they have stayed the course and do a fine job of filling their niche. And as other have pointed out, selling more guitars is maybe impossible due to factory capacity. I understand all that. What's nice about this world is that we have a wide range of choices.
Dave |
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Location: Texas | CK knows what a good idea he had and it would be
sacrilegious to change such an amazing design.
I am in agreement with everyone who says - if you don't like the bowl - don't buy it. Stick to the woodies and sell your ovations - we are here waiting for anyone to put them up for sale.
I, for one, love the design that gives the added pleasure of an incredible sounding guitar. For some reason, I have no trouble with the roundback staying in place - sitting or standing.
Musical masterbation - I might not be a professional player but it is very enjoyable feeling. :D :D |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by cliff:
quote:
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SoccerMoms with the cute little ponytail bobbing up and down out of the back of the baseball cap
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Personally, I find that very attractive. Ponytail bobbing up and down? Yeah, sign me up. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by vision:
Stick to the woodies and sell your ovations - we are here waiting for anyone to put them up for sale. Geez, I've sold 78 of them. How much further do you want me to go ???
My work on this thread is done.
Dave
PS - A member who shall remain nameless PM'ed me and suggested I change my name to "Ovation Hater". Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. |
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Location: NJ | Don't get me wrong . . .
I'm not pooh-poohing woodboxes (or those that play 'em).
The guitar that's CONSTANTLY within reach of my computer is a Takamine Classical. I absolutely LOVE the volume, tone, playability, feel and smell of it.
I would LOVE to have a Martin or a Collings around the house to "relax" with.
I'd also love a Porsche in the garage t'tool around with on the weekends too, but neither's gonna' happen right now . . .
My point is why "ditch" what you've been KNOWN for (for a long time) that's been working for something that you MIGHT be able t'market (to a bunch of guitar snobs that don't "like" you anyway).
It'd be better for Hamer t'put out a boutique acoustic. |
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Location: Flushing, MI | I think that people will shun Ovation now days no matter WHAT they do, just because it's popular to hate Ovations. It's ALL OVER the internet "Ovations suck". People will believe that and avoid them without ever taking the time to try out a fine one. And.....
... IF they ever decide to try one, the local dealer will have a bunch of Celebity's on the floor for demonstration, and if you want a good U.S. made instrument, wellll... "We'll have to special order that...."
I'm an O' lover and to this very day I have yet to try - or ever SEE an Adamas in the flesh.
So, no I really don't think they would dig themselves out by producing an all wood guitar. All of the O' haters would just roll their eyes and say it's a piece of shit WITHOUT ever even touching the thing.
I once played an electric gig at a Blues club. The people at the table nearest the stage were heckling us before we ever played a note, saying "I see you're using Peaveys. You can't be a Blues player using a Peavey". They then walked out without ever hearing a note.
That's the mentality of MOST of the people out there. It's sad.
BTW - I vote that Ovation should keep the plastic bowl. It should stay. There's a tonal reason for it - one that I prefer. |
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Location: NJ | ". . Musical masterbation - I might not be a professional player but it is very enjoyable feeling . ."
Believe me, my gigs aren't much better than that . . . I've just been fortunate to find a weekly group of sick bastards who "like to watch" . . |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "I like to watch."
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Location: Cicero, NY | Personally I'm still stuck on the "ponytail bobbing" thing. How can you NOT find that attractive? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Weaser P:
Personally I'm still stuck on the "ponytail bobbing" . How can you NOT find that attractive? Easy. . . .
Just look down at the 'Umbria' clad, overly-scheduled, private school brats in tow...
(unless, of course, I'm looking down at it) |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Cliff, I have never seen you so passionate about something..........
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... (except maybe when Jeff fell asleep and you had the markers and shaving cream!) |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | i think thread sticked to "wood box proposal" too long.
for me, there are more recognizeable from distance things than bowl or epaulets.
headstock - my eye doesn't even need to look at the rest of the guitar, and i know that it's O
you don't see bowl if guy is standing in front of you.
but it's not important.
important is, that i go to shop in Poland, and i don't see that ANYONE in this country will ever buy ovation through "official channel". it's way to expensive for real worth, and set up is awful (except adamas).
initially, i was REALLY happy that i saw Ovation in polish shop, and i told to friend of mine that he will see something special.
yes, he saw something special. $1500 celeb with bad intonation, high action and not working tuner, Legend which got killed tone-wise by Samick O15 (about 4 times cheaper) and Adamas, which was really impressive but it wasn't guitar that one would invest few times as much as he earns. |
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Location: Parrish, FL | I'm in for the pony tail bobbing event :D |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Marketing, a subject I have no opinion on.
click. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I've loved Ovation since my first in the early 1970s. I've loved loved Gibson since my first in the early 1960's, and Fenders, too, especially their amps, and now my Tak EF75. I could probably be satisfied with a Taylor, or a Martin, or a Collins, or all three, and cost is not really a major deciding factor at this time in my life. I'm really satisfied with what I've got, so I'm not wishing for anything, 'cept maybe a really rare neon sign or two, and I tend to buy stuff on a whim or spontaneous suggestion. However, I'm probably the only one here to buy a certain brand of guitar just to display with a particular neon sign. Somewhere in my childhood, I must have become fascinated with neon lights. Why else the baggage? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Everyone but castrati has baggage.
They have issues. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I dated a girl named, Castratti-- Michelle. |
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Location: NJ | she have a ponytail?? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Mike? I knew him in choir before the Priest! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I like them because they're different. If they were just like every other guitar, I wouldn't like them.
I know that I'm not a great customer, having bought a new one once every 30 years, but I bet I've sold more Ovations out of the local Guitar Center than many of the people who work there.
And I wank on more than just the weekends. |
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Location: Flushing, MI | The "ponytail bobbin' up and down" thing is only hot if there's a reason for it to be bobbin' up and down....! |
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Location: CT | I Love Ovations. Anyone who doesn't can kiss my skinny white butt!
Ovations sound different than a Martin or Taylor, so what? I love Martins and Taylors too, but they seeem to sound WORSE only to people who ONLY own Martins and Taylors. They need to get a life.
Ovations sell, so I don't see a marketinng problem. If Clapton was an endorsee would it make it a better guitar?? or just more expensive?
Keep the bowl-that's what an Ovation IS - period! You wanna box - BUY a box!
Here's an idea though, put a name on the headstock that matches the label - Ovation, Celebrity, Applause, Ultra, whatever.. People wanna see a name on the headstock that matches the guitar they paid for. The guy who buys the Legend doesn't want a guitar that looks I dentical to a cheesecake Celebrity. The shlum who buys an Epiphone L.P. doesn't have a guitar that looks EXACLY like the guy who payed for a Gibson L.P.
I played a bunch of guitars at Sam Ash today.. none of them left me impressed. Nice, yes, but 4 or 5k ??? I played an Ibanez and a Yamaha at 300 bucks that sounded pretty damned close. My Custom Legend, and newly aquired Adamas 1 both sound nicer than anything I tried.. and not at the price of a decent used car.
-rant off. |
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Location: south east Michigan | For such a tired, well trodden subject, this thread has turned out to be somewhat interesting.
Good job!
And even though cwk2 said "click", I'll bet he read
each
and every
word.
(pssst... hi Bill) |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | In seminary some years ago, I had a professor that nearly everyone hated...he was constantly taking the opposite side of arguments or presupposing something that seemed just wrong...It's called playing the "Devils Advocate"...and some use it to stimulate conversation and get others looking at different sides of the equation; How many times has Dave done this here in the forum? Many, many times; and it usually has two results: First it defiantly gets people talking and second it ticks some people off...the first was intentional and the second is just a by-product of the first...Personally, each and every one on this forum is an individual...each has their quirks and special ways of expressing themselves...and I for one am glad of that...it would be pretty boring if everyone were the same...NOW, doesn't the same scenario apply to guitars? Of course it does! Does Dave know that? OF COURSE he does! Dave has one of the finest collections of instruments I have personally seen (well at least in photo's) and being a smart guy knows what he likes and what will hold value and hopefully increase in value...Cliff is much like myself (whoa, that is scary) in that we are players first...we depend on our instruments the way a carpenter depends on his power tools...and we only play what works constantly day after day after day...that’s why we choose Ovations...the public also lets us know in many ways...All of us here are ambassadors for Ovation/Adamas/Kaman; and we have a tremendous power of persuasion by the nature of our affiliations and preferences...The point that was made about Ovation selling everything they currently make is true...visit the factory...go to the tours...take pictures and listen to the speakers and factory personnel...and then share what you learn with others...
One more point I want to make...Most companies do have a budget line...Ovation has Celebrities, Ultra's etc....In retail, we used to call our holiday "get ‘em in the door specials" our loss leaders...some package with a crazy low price that gets folks in the door and hopefully looking at the rest of the line (s)...I have played some Celebrities that sounded OK; not as good as a USA Ovation, but OK...No good USA made guitar is in-expensive any more if bought retail...imports are cheaper and for some fill the bill just fine...BUT, EVERY DAY ON EBAY, USED USA MADE OVATIONS ARE SOLD FOR BARGIN PRICES...OVERSEAS SHIPPING IS NOT CHEAP BUT WHEN COMBINED WITH A LOW PURCHASE PRICE CAN BE A GREAT OPTION TO PAYING INFLATED PRICES FOR IMPORT GUITARS....JUST A THOUGHT!
Also the 47RI is truly in a class by itself...It is a fabulous instrument and I can see why the owners of the original slotheads revere them so much...Again, do whatever is legal and moral that you have to do to get one if you are even thinking about it!
OK, I'm done now...
Enjoy Life; it sure beats the alternative!
;) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | ...and sometimes, Mike, you just gotta call a douche bag, a 'douche bag' |
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Location: NJ | . . and sometimes y'just call it Witko . . . |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Tomato/Toemahtoe |
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | The solution to the ponytails is "Locks of Love." ;)
I'm a really small fish in the pond of Ovation ownership--one LX, one Balladeer, one Tornado, one Viper. Marketing aside, the best advertisement is the guitars themselves. The first thing people comment on with my two acoustics are, "I can't believe how EASY this is to play!!" (Of course, Gertrude has that wonderful "early 70's" neck, and Jewel's was custom-made to try to match hers.)
Even my son's Celebrity is fairly easy to play, K-bar and all, and has a really good sound.
I have a couple wood boxes, too, but......I love my O's best.
--Karen |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Why is that Mike always makes so much sense to me? Seriously, when I see your posts (and I mean this as a compliment) my first reaction is, sh*t here comes another 500 words from Mike. But them I read it and, DAMN it all makes perfect sense. What exactly do you DO for a living and are you accepting new patients.
Dave |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I'm a minister Dave (guess that explains the wordiness...lol); thanks for the compliment: its all free; Glad to help if I can...! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by MusicMike:
I'm a minister Dave SEE! Look at that - the lions and lambs sleeping together in peace and harmony. Life is good.
Dave |
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Location: East Tennessee | Very interesting topic.
So far I've learned.
1. A lot of members do not understand Ovation's marketing strategy.
2. A lot of members like ponytails.
3. Tupperware still knows how to stir up the pot.
4. Cliff still knows how to sign off. (click)
5 Many members do have and love wood backed guitars.
6. And finally all of us love Ovation guitars.
Bottom line: Better marketing + High profile endorser's = Higher prices. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by brainslag:
I Love Ovations. Anyone who doesn't can kiss my skinny white butt! Man, don't I wish I had one of those...
Originally posted by Jewels Mom:
The solution to the ponytails is "Locks of Love." The police confiscated mine after the last raid. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Actually I haven't read this, but if I have more time I may, I want to find out what this pony tail thing is about.
I just glanced at this as I wrote out a check for a new Merrill, a C-45 with some extra tweeks, and wrote out the envelope. Should be done in 8-9 months. Now there's something to look forward to.
Now I'm waiting for the grill to heat up and go cook turkey burgers
Besides, What do I know about marketing? I'm just an old jet fuel-gas station guy. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | :D :D :D :D :D |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Dave, did you like the part where Mike called you a smart guy or the part where he said he was just like Cliff?
Mike, there's the Devil's Advocate and then there's just the Devil. Dave has at least a little of the devil in him. |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | Turkey Burgers? Beal...Turkey Burgers?
I would love to see the marketing campaign for those in the South! :D
Hold on a sec..."Yes, Dear"..."cook what?!"... never mind Beal, I take it back..... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Call it what you want, but I get satisfaction in making people think about an issue from a different angle. Maybe it means taking a good hard look in the mirror, or maybe it means stepping back and taking a broad look at the world.
Can you imagine in 1983 how gut wrenchingly difficult it must have been for Mazda to come to the conclusion that they could not go on stuffing rotary engines into every model they offered while watching Honda and Toyota kick their ass in the market? They took a good hard look at the long term potential and decided to continue offering the rotary for those devoted followers, and at the same time start cranking out piston engines to compete with their piers. Certainly the later backing of Ford helped but by all accounts Mazda today is a healthier, more profitable company they they ever could have hope for had they chosen to ride their one-horse unique technology pony into the sunset. Way back when, they probably had some young whipper-snapper marketing guy screaming "Kill the rotary, make a me-too honda". He was probably not a popular guy.
Dave |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Now if Moody was at Mazda, he would have simply told them to go drive a Toyota for a coupla weeks and then come back. A new set of tires and you'll remember why you fell in love with it in the first place!
He coulda saved them a mint in R&D!! |
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Location: Simpsonville, SC | .....the only wood back that I have purchased in the last thirty years came from Dave. Best $47 dollars I've ever spent. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Now THAT is funny !!! |
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Location: Ct./ USA | Hey Tupperware, f@*7 O&( |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | No- THAT's funny. |
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Location: NJ | :D |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | Dave, I enjoyed your rant. You, like many on this board have fallen victim, to the criticism from players who just don't like the plastic bowl. Too f*ckin bad for them. Consider this:
Guitars players by nature are a very conservative lot when it comes to guitars. We all love vintage, that means older basic guitars. Ovation doesn't fit that mold.
Taylor, and the like have done a good job selling the exotic wood aspect to the masses. They convinced the public that some African Rosewood, and Ceylon Mahogany blend is the answer to true good sound.
Last but not least: Many of today's popular (younger)acoustic players, don't pick put melodies or do much lead work (think Jim Croce's side man). The playability, and balance can not be appreciated by a bunch of hard strumming monkeys, over using a few suspended chords for hours. Think how artists like Al Demiola and Larry Coryell, demonstrate why Ovations are such great guitars. Then go play your Ovation. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by brainslag:
I Love Ovations. Anyone who doesn't can kiss my skinny white butt!....
......Here's an idea though, put a name on the headstock that matches the label - Ovation, Celebrity, Applause, Ultra, whatever.. People wanna see a name on the headstock that matches the guitar they paid for....
-rant off. I got a CC57 with a really nice fretboard, dots & diamonds... And it Actually sez "Celebrity" on the Headstock!
Surprised the heck outta me!
Just thought I'd mention that... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Oh, Ovation will rebuild a 33 year-old guitar for you. For free if you are the original owner...
(And hopefully for a reasonable price if you're not) |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | I don't know Dave personally but I have purchased a couple guitars from him. He even stirs up trouble in my house when I'm explaining to my wife why I need some of Dave's guitars. But you don't have to check out his Ovation Gallery for very long to realize he's a dedicated O fan. I'm sure he knows 10 times (OK, probably 100 X) more than me about Ovations.
Yet I probably see things from a little different angle. I know the plastic body is far less expensive to mold than it is to hand craft a wooden body with braces. So from my perspective, that lets Ovation build guitars with great soundboards for far less money. That means I can own a great sounding guitar. I can't afford a $3000 Martin or Taylor but I've got a coulpe great sounding O's that I enjoy immensely.
Do we need a new marketing direction. Probably. I know for certain that most people constantly confuse Celebrity, Applause and Ovation models. They call them all Ovations and then tell me how crappy they sound. Then they tell me my Ovation is the best one they've ever heard. A lot of that is because they are comparing my 1537 to an Applause. So I believe we need to get the Ovation name off the Applause and Celebrity models. In addition, there needs to be more separation between the models (sadly, I don't even know the difference between Applause and Celebrity models). Move the Ovation models to the Contour body. Add sound holes on the Ovation body near the electronics so the player can hear his own work. Think about replacing the Ovation molded plastic body with the original fiber glass or a more modern equivalent. Keep the older technology for the Applause and celebrity models.
Finally, I have to admit I like the fact the O's are so unique looking. A lot of people go out of their way to ask me "what kind of guitar is that?". So it's a fun attention-getter too. But the sound is job one. Oh, and I may be alone in this one but I still take pride in Made in the USA.
Jim |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Hey Dave...while your still pissed off at the plastic bowl, can I have your Adamas II 12 string?
You're right, those plastic bowls suck. So to make you feel better, call me so we can work out the shipping details.
Jim |
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Location: Atlanta, GA. | If my retirement income relied partially on the dividends recieved from shares of Ovation stock I owned, I might be questioning the direction of their marketing strategy.
Since it doesn't, I won't. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | If I've read correctly between the lines, the people I think are shareholder/members are not complaining at all... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I apologize for temporarily removing my blinders. It was not my intention to provoke anyone to think outside the narrow lines. Have a nice day. Dave |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | I resent the implication that I'm with ALL of anything!...Let alone this pansy bunch....except Moody, of course.
Where's the narrow lines? I'll pee on 'em just on principle. |
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Location: Tennessee | Sorry, I just don't get this whole thing. Ovation has always been the alternative guitar. Go to the Ovation Guitars website and have a look through the pictures of the artists. Then go to the Martin website and look at the pictures of their artists. See a difference? The people on the Ovation site for the most part are cutting edge and the folks on the Martin site are old, fat white guys. Taylor has got most of the same old fat white guys on their artist list. Their indie list isn't filled with people who fit the "indie" mold that most alternative rockers think of. Not a tattoo among them. Lots of soon-to-be aging, fat white guys**.
Ovations are still considered by the younger crowd as cool, hip, alternative guitars. There's plenty of them being played out there and a shitload of them are being sold, but most of the people on this board don't see them because most of us are not out watching the new, cool, hip bands ... we're listening to old, fat white guys -- or people who will turn into OFWGs soon. I really hope that Ovation doesn't alter their target market to go after the old, fat white guy, because then they'll go out of business. And even if you say that Ovation should at least tell OFWGs that O's are great, it will fall on deaf ears because we know that OFWGs are set in their ways, have already formed their opinions, and can no longer think outside the lines.
I get a LOT of young kids through my house. There are always a bunch of guitars out ... the wood boxes are ignored and my O's get picked up with sounds of "man this is such a cool guitar". And they know it is an Ovation ... so the marketing works. Someone said early on that Ovation ought to get the kids to play Ovations ... all I've got to say is that they do. The marketing works. Unfortunately, much of our demographic here is the old, fat, white guy and we are not the target market. So we think the marketing sucks and we miss the point ... but Ovation is not trying to sell to the old, fat white guy. The cool, hip, alternative among us will remember Ovation and go in search of them instead of being sucked into the Taylor or Martin marketing machine.
So you've got to ask yourself ... do I want to be cool, hip and alternative or do I want to be an old, fat white guy. Despite all the outward appearances, I pick the former. (And I think that the majority of the Ovation nuts here have also picked the former even if the pollsters what to lump us in with the OFWGs).
** BTW, "guy" is a gender neutral word in this context. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Good points. Nothing wrong with being the alternative. As I emailed someone last night (I've gotten quite a few interesting email and PM's lately), the world would sure suck if Martin/Taylor etc. was the only choice in town. And it would similarly suck if ovation was the only choice we had. I guess I just enjoy variety.
Dave |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
So you've got to ask yourself ... do I want to be cool, hip and alternative or do I want to be an old, fat white guy. Despite all the outward appearances, I pick the former. I'd settle for being a cool, hip, alternative old fat white guy... |
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Location: Cicero, NY | And I'm just enjoying being an old fat white guy with alternatives. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by stonebobbo:
the folks on the Martin site are old, fat white guys I don't understand...I don't play a Martin. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Do these old fat white guys have pony tails? |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | So you've got to ask yourself ... do I want to be cool, hip and alternative or do I want to be an old, fat white guy. Why is it that Old and Fat seem to go together?
Unfortunatly, I resemble that remark!
:D :eek: ;) |
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Location: Texas | Whewwwwwwww 107 post - and to think it all started just by me questioning maketing skills.
I had better not bring up the war in the middle east :D :eek: :D :eek:
I will take cool and hip - just make them a popular cool and hip group. I bid you a good day. :D |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | In explaining the difference between Adamas, US Ovations, Celebrities and the Applause line a while back, I compared them to the Fender Strat line including the upper end custom shop models (Adamas), the US Strats (US Ovations), the MIM Strats (Celebrities), and the Squire line (Applause). They may all look similar, but there is a difference in so many other variables. This seemed to turn on the light for my colleague. |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | ok. to me marketing is not longer needed. I had today first contact with John Budny, and the way company treated my problem was WAY better than any other in my life.
and i will convince my friend who has music store to get some ovations, even if those will be celebrities, and i'll set up them flawlessly just to show people that they're GOOD |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | You discovered what many others know, John and Kim are the best damn endorsement that a company could ever have !!!
Dave |
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Location: CT | They need to post pics of themselves on the O web page.... with grass skirts and coconuts. |
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Location: Texas | Marketing is always needed - if it wasn't, Ovation would not even show up for the Namm show -that is a form of marketing. Maybe all that is needed is for their reps to get great displays of a number of different ovations and Adamas into the stores.
The store I frequent had an entire section of their store reserved with a beautiful display of PRS guitars - now that is marketing - the minute you walked into the store - that is the direction you went whether you liked PRS guitars or not. It was that impressive.
John Budney is a great guy - I have dealt with him twice and could not ask for better treatment.
I am not saying that Celebrities or Applause are bad guitars - they are not - but play them against the higher line and there is a big difference. My first guitar was an applause - I loved the thing. Beautiful sound - but mine was over 30 years ago - maybe it was still made in the US :)
I hope you can get your friend to bring them in - they will sell. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by vision:
Marketing is always needed - if it wasn't, Ovation would not even show up for the Namm show That's an interesting comment and a lot funnier than you probably intended it to be.
I don't think it means anything (except to Austin) but a number of companies choose not to participate in Summer NAMM this year. Kaman included.
Back to the topic at hand. Ovation does their marketing, they have their endorsees, they sell every guitar they make, so what's the problem?
Dave |
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Location: NJ | Doesn't mean much.
There are a LOT of tradeshows that do East/West, Spring/Fall, Summer/Winter shows where some people choose not to attend.
A lot of it depends on the region, time of year, and how many attendees the Association (in this case, NAMM) can/can't provide.
It costs a LOT to exhibit, and sometimes y'do better just NOT attending . . .
(besides, who the hell want's t'go to Austin in the middle of Summer??? . . . they should bring it to Atlantic City again . . .) |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | Oops, I must be in the wrong place or is this the OFWG forum? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by vision:
Whewwwwwwww 107 post - and to think it all started just by me questioning maketing skills. Proving that you never did "search" the subject... |
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Location: Texas | Who said anything about Austin - Ovation was at the 2007 NAMM show - correct? There are two Adamas I customs that have NAMM 2007 on them, right?
Okay, I give - ovation does their marketing and sells every guitar they make - except the ones that sit in guitar stores for a year or two.
I am just saying....... |
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Location: NJ | There's a NAMM Winter and a NAMM Summer show every year . . . |
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Location: Texas | I know that Cliff - and they were at the winter Namm show - wasn't it in California? |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | So,do we all agree that CFMartin Dread`s are better than croc`s...?..
Vic
..Coffee,cream and sugar on the side.. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Vision,
I was semi-funning with you re; the whole namm thing. My appologies. My so called "friends" around here jump on me over every little thing, mis-spelling, mis-statement, etc. I don't know what I do to deserve this. I just offer personal opinions and I'm treated like the second coming of hitler. Another member has "Adamas Hater" as a name and nobody ever gave him crap over it, I don't know. Anyway, I have been conditioned to correct others. I know it's a terrible habit. You stated that kaman was serious about marketing because they show up at namm. I knew you meant winter namm, but you didn't specify. So knowing that they skipped summer namm I felt obligated to point out that your statement was not correct. Stupid habit of mine. Other companies skipped Austin as well. Doesn't mean anything. |
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Location: SoCal | oh, poor baby...so misunderstood |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Quote " Another member has "Adamas Hater" as a name and nobody ever gave him crap over it,"
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Dave,that "nick" was `cause I`d made fun of ADAMAS axes one day,then I could not change back,and wrote to our moderators for help ...,however ,some remarks ,were made by other members,I frantically kept on trying to get my old "nick" back,and then my sons pointed out to me, that all I had to do ,was change the"nick" to something else,that`s how , but actually,..I was about to post a thread titled .."What`s with the Language ?" ..during my time as a member here,I have noticed that at times good-spirited-sarcastic-of the cuff remarks,have turned into spiteful responses,that came close to name-calling,I was beginning to wonder if this board was going to become a place of bitterness,I mean,Sure,EveryOne can have a bad day,and at times a sensitive toe can be stepped on,and I Do Hope that such is the case,and nothing more,but it seems to me as if on this thread some "mobbing" has taken place,and I noticed that topics such as strings,plectre and the like get treated rather lightly,things that actually have a tremendous Impact on the Sound of a guitar,after all,how`s that Ovation gonna Play/Sound ..?..Personaly, I have experienced your posts as Outspoken,yet Humorous ,and often to the Point,usually with that "wink" inbetween the lines..so I say :..Dave,do Not let spitefulness get the better of ya,..you`re too Good for that,keep that Chin Up... :)
Vic
..We`re all too Good for that.. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Dave, one thing I have learned from 15 years of dealing with people (usually older "set in stone", "stuck" people) is that when you find you can't teach old dogs new tricks...Raise Puppies!
I'm really looking forward to Amelia in March!
:D :rolleyes: |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Originally posted by Mauvais Beal (cwk2):
Do these old fat white guys have pony tails? :D :D
I could probably make one up out of the hair on my back..... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I wonder how many threads have been devoted to arguing with Dave. Some people think lawyers are argumentative. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Dave Who? |
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Location: SoCal | We need to understand that Dave might not have been burped recently or enough... de burp |
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Location: Cicero, NY | I think that story he recently told about Temp's room pretty much proves he doesn't get burped enough. |
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Location: SoCal | Do YOU want to be the one responsible for burping him? I sure as hell don't...... |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Oocheewawwah.. :)
Vic
..how would a Martin sound when fitted to a Deep Bowl..??.. |
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Location: USA | personally...
I have tried several...several times in contacting Kaman...Ovation...Adamas in trying to secure an endorsement deal.
I have taken these guitars literally around the world... I have been approached on my sound, the guitars, etc... at each performance.
Their list of endorsees never seem to change...which is fine...but the list should be expanded.
Im not saying... pick me pick me... but i know i've certainly spread the word.
Their marketing is indeed weak...and will continue to be so...
why not listen to those who actually play them and stand behind them? sounds like a good idea to me :) |
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Location: Illinois, U.S.A. | Originally posted by Little Boy Jefferson:
i think the best thing some company should start doing is inventing better bridge for acoustic guitar. i have yet to play acoustic guitar that has perfect intonation. when i can move saddles under strings, i can always set my electric perfectly, but on acoustic i have to learn how to avoid out-of-tune areas or sth.
(snip,snip) I have three Takamine acoustics with PERFECT intonation, at least as perfect as can be discerned by the human ear and an ordinary electronic tuner. The "trick" is in adjusting the in-tune, open string to also make that 12th fret pitch also in-tune.
Just as in adjusting the saddles on, say, a fender Stratocaster, minute adjustments make significant changes in measured pitch. On the acoustic, there is a very narrow range you can "fine-tune" an on-pitch open string, so that it nudges the pitch on that 12th fret to also be perfectly in tune as measured by an electronic tuner.
Dealing with newer strings is a challenge, since they take awhile to "relax-out" excess elasticity. Steel strings are better about this than nylon. At the beginning of their life together, getting all six strings to stay in pitch (let alone all in perfect intonation) is an art. Keep the recording machines turned on standby, because when you get them spot-on, you'll only have a limited amount of playing time to record that perfect sound.
Also, picking up a guitar out of the case means the strings are at room temperature. After a little playing time, your fingers have warmed the strings. Guess what. The tone properties of each string have changed .... and not by the same amount .... grrrr! So another hint is, warm up the strings and your fingers before attempting the final intonation tuning. |
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Location: Illinois, U.S.A. | Originally posted by vision:
Old Man Arthur - maybe I am out of touch but I never heard of Lacuna Coil. I will have to check it out however, this is not a house hold named guitarist. Help us Mother Ship!!!! LOL Give a listen, watch their videos here . |
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Location: Illinois, U.S.A. | Originally posted by Tupperware:
I can't believe I'm about to write this for the nth time, but here goes...
Ovation will never, ever break out of the malaise that thay have been in for the last 25 years until they get rid of the fucking plastic bowl. (snip, snip) Not to disrespect any points being made, but isn't it ironic the plastic bowl is getting "diss-ed" by a member with a screen name of " Tupperware "? |
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Location: Illinois, U.S.A. | Lawdy, I can't believe I just read this whole thread .... but, here are my parting thoughts:
- The engineer at the studio mixer doesn't give a crapolla about whether the bowl is plastic or rare Brazilian rosewood, or which locale in the world the wooden top was harvested from.
- Fender puts a major effort in endorsements and in putting out expensive "signature" electric models; C.F. Martin won't even lend a former Beetle one of their acoustic models for a studio session. The engineer in the recording studio doesn't give a crapolla about brands or marketing instruments.
- The guitar you park on the stand next to your favorite chair at home is the best guitar in YOUR world. The engineer in the recording studio doesn't give a crapolla about you or your home furnishings.
Great, I've just doomed myself in my next incarnation to return to earth as a studio engineer ..... grr! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "Great, I've just doomed myself in my next incarnation to return to earth as a studio engineer ..... grr!"
Don't know about 'Studio Engineers' but when working a sound-board and carrying amps, All I cared about was the Free Beer!
Or mixed drinks if it was a yuppie dive! |
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New Marketing needed