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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | I'm the new owner of KOALA #8 and I'm struggling to get an amplified tone that is as smooth and playable as my basic 6778LX. I know there's a very limited group here who has one and knows the sound, but I thought I'd share my issues.
The guitar really sings acoustically but I hate (can I say that?) the VIP sound. So many settings and yet a basic, punchy yet smooth tone eludes me. Even the basic pickup sounds are extremely piezo-quacky with too much treble, when compared with the Op Pro on the Elite. The images have odd, unmusical midrange profiles that all irk me in some way.
I'm hemming and hawing about letting the guitar go... any last minute thoughts on settings or anything else?? Such a bummer, as the guitar is really special otherwise and I WANT to love it! |
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November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | could it be a bad preamp or pick-up issue? |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | Jeff, I really don't think so. Everything functions perfectly, it's just different than the other Ovation preamps that I've used (OP24, Op Pro). There is no sign of a malfunction or flaw.
I *can* dial in a tone, but it take a lot of work and as a result, I'm fiddling way more than I want to before getting musical. |
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November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | The way I understand it, when you play with the VIP set at 100% pickup and 0% image (slider all the way toward the back of the guitar), you should be getting the same sound as the OpPro.
I run mine (Koala #2) on image two and set the slider at about 40% (eg, slightly more pickup than image). Depending in the amplification, I will pull down the bass just a tad. Otherwise I leave it flat.
My experience is that there is a very fine line you are trying to find. Too little image and you are quacky*. Too much and it gets really muddy and feedback prone. But if you find the sweet spot, it really works.
* But not in an objectionable way. Just quacky like any piezo is quacky. Depending on where I am playing, sometimes I want that quack to help the tone cut through the mix. |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Set all controls flat on the guitar, set the imaging at minimum and set your PA or amplifier flat. From there try to decide what the sound needs (brighter, less mid, more bass or whatever) Try to get close to what you want to hear from the preamp controls, but avoid extreme cutting or boosting. Then go to your PA or amp and fine tune from there. Do this at something approaching peformance volume, as hearing sensitivity to low and high frequency increases as the level goes up. If you've already done that try a fully-parametric 4-band EQ. Or maybe the guitar just isn't for you. Personally I don't like the VIP imaging, nor do I like the Fishman Aura technology on which it is based, however I've had no problem getting a good sound from a VIP-equipped guitar without using the imaging aspect of it. |
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June 2006
Posts: 7307
Location: South of most, North of few | Thank you. I never did like the vip preamp because there were too many variables with it. Just give me an old stacked tone volume unit or even a direct out and I am much happier. |
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December 2004
Posts: 4394
Location: East Tennessee | Originally posted by Trader Jim:
Thank you. I never did like the vip preamp because there were too many variables with it. Just give me an old stacked tone volume unit or even a direct out and I am much happier. Stacked tone/volume or separate tone & volume controls are the best. The next best is the OP 24 three band EQ and volume. |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | I do understand the KISS principle as applied to guitar electronics. But I am physically capable of ignoring the extra stuff on the VIP and just using the three band EQ to adjust my sound. The problem is that even when I do that, I can't quite get what I'm looking for tonewise.
Might just be the way it is. |
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March 2005
Posts: 1421
Location: Orange County, California | I'll chime in here. If you know what you're looking for, tone is easy to get. Your Elite is a different sounding guitar than the Koa. So it's stands to reason that it will sound different plugged in too.
Like Paul said, start with everything flat, and the image all the way down. EQ to taste with the gain about 12 o'clock. If you haven't found a "baseline sound" that's close, you have other board/PA /amp issues (i.e. equalization, reverb etc) to deal with.
I found that pulling the bass down about 50% to start with helps (I actually eq my 15" powered monitor -6 db anyway). Then I listened to the different images at about 50% blend very carefully. I tried to pick out the nuances that I liked from each image. I generally play on #2 most of the time, but I like #5 too. I've gotten to the point where it I can't tell the difference between what's coming off the top of the guitar, and what comes out of the PA (only it's much louder). Then it's pretty easy to change flavors between songs (without more tweaking).
Don't give up!! This guitar sounds as good as it looks |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | I find that even with the treble fader all the way down, other faders flat and image OFF, there is too much treble and clicky string noise in the sound for my taste.
With 25 guitars or so of all different flavors, and three amps, I know exactly what I'm looking for... but tone is only easy to get if the instrument you're playing CAN get it! Try getting a Strat tone from an LP for example.
Anyway, I appreciate the comments. I'm still working on it. For one thing, it's easier to get a good strumming sound that I like than it is to get a good jazzy lead tone. The Elite excels at the latter, which is more of what I tend to gravitate to. |
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November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by rpguitar:
I find that even with the treble fader all the way down, other faders flat and image OFF, there is too much treble and clicky string noise in the sound for my taste. I think you should call Al and see if John will send you a new bridge/pickup unit. Your experience is dramatically different from mine. Something is not working right based on your description. |
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September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Maybe I should avoid a VIP... Even if I could afford one.
I like the two OP-24+'s that I have just fine, that is about as hi-tech as I need.
All that other stuff sounds more like work than fun! |
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January 2005
Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | I'm no expert on plugged in use, but I am surprised by these comments. I have VIP on two guitars and on neither of them have I had any trouble dialing in a dark somber tone, a bright quacky tone, and everything in between. I would try swapping a pickup from another guitar and see if anything changes. Dave |
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September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I don't have a VIP...yet.
But from the ones I have test driven, I like'em.
IMO... Perhaps over the years we have been conditioned to accept "quack" as just part of acoustic amplification. Yet the experts here suggest that the correct way to record an acoustic guitar is with a good microphone.
The ability to supress the quack leads to a more natural, un-plugged sound.... IMHO. |
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Joined:
September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | OK, here's what I've done - and my observations.
Action: I put the Elite pickup in my Koala
Result: No change
Action: I put the Op Pro into my Koala
Result: Definite reduction in treble and extraneous noise. Still a different sound than the Elite, but that's to be expected. Much more controllable bass. I can actually boost it a tad; couldn't really do that with the VIP - it got super boomy.
Action: I put the VIP battery into the Op Pro
Result: Same sound. But proved that the Op Pro has very noticeably less output at the same volume setting when compared to the VIP.
So do I have a defective VIP module? I bought this guitar from another OFC member, so I don't have the warranty under my name. Advice? |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Roger, are you using the 1/4" or the XLR output on the Koala? |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | Tried both, but usually the 1/4". The XLR seems the same, only much louder.
I put the Koala's electronics into the Elite. And strangely, it behaves much better in that guitar... I may keep everything swapped for a while and re-evaluate both. |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Here's a thought. Check to be sure you have the right image set for the Koala in the VIP. Not sure how you check, but someone here should know, or contact Budny. It's possible they put the wrong VIP in yours. |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | The unit has a sticker on it that says "Set 1."
But I was complaining about the straight analog pickup sound, so I don't know if it matters. |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Ah, ok. Thought the VIP was the problem. |
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Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by rpguitar:
I put the Koala's electronics into the Elite. And strangely, it behaves much better in that guitar The more interesting question is how does the Elite's pre-amp sound in the Koala? |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | I did comment on that... it has lower output at the same settings. And the bass and treble are both more manageable. Overall, it is much better and renders the guitar playable (to ME) when plugged in.
I think there may just be a matter of taste going on here. I think the Koala probably has a better classic acoustic (almost Martin-esque) sound, but it's less adept at a smooth, jazzy, punchy sound. And the latter is more of what I personally go for when I plug in.
But take note - those who say the VIP is just an Op Pro with added Aura digital electronics - perhaps it is not quite true! |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Hey, Roger!!!
I just thought of this . . .
t'morrow night, I'm playing at that place up the road from you (Tavern344,Wayne).
Wanna' sit-in for some of the 1st set?(or 2nd, if you prefer)??
I was planning on opening w/Buffett's
"Desperation Samba(Halloween in Tijuana)".
You seem t'be into a lot of those brite, snappy staccattoes & such.
You could probably make it "tasty".
Should be able t'dig up a few more.
D'you know any Al Stewart??
If y'got nothing t'do, bring yer fave acoustic over & come on up.
I can't pay you, but I'll do ya' a drink & an appie . . .
I usually start between 7:30-8.
Sorry for the short notice, but I thought of it JUST now (while(a-hem!) LEARNING said "DesperationSamba") :rolleyes:
LemmeKnow. |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | You have no idea how I would LOVE to come down and do that, Cliff! What a cool, generous offer.
However, do you know what I have to while you are playing "Halloween in Tiajuana?" Take my daughter to an elementary school "Halloween in Franklin Lakes" party... :rolleyes:
I would really like to hook up with you sometime soon. Thank you so much for the invitation, and fear not - a drink or 2 is all I "require" to perform! |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | ". . - a drink or 2 is all I "require" to perform! . ."
Why! . . Mrs. Witko!!
(okay, . . c'mon, . . . everybody . . . "groan" . . .)
Anytime,Roger. |
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September 2007
Posts: 153
Location: New Jersey, USA | FOLLOW UP...
I don't know if anyone is interested, but I wanted to post a "what happened next" regarding the trouble I was having with amplifying my Koala. It's good news!
It comes down to the importance of strings and setup. Not just importance - criticality. With some guitars it's all the difference. I guess this is one of them.
I filed down the nut because it was too damn high, especially at the bass side. I reset it because it was also shifted to the treble side, and the high 'E' slipped off the board too easily. Next, I experimented with shims. One full size and one thin shim and the action is great. Previously, I had one full and a piece of a thin shim only on the treble side. Maybe (??) that was an issue.
Finally, and this is the major improvement: La Bella Criterion Golden Alloy strings, set C500S (.012"-.052"). These replaced a set of Martin SP Phosphor Bronzes that are my normal standard. Well, the Criterions are smooth and slinky as can be, and they sound amazing on the guitar! I can't believe the difference. It is manifested both acoustically and when plugged in.
I can now have bass and mid flat with the treble a little attenuated, and it sounds controllable. I can mellow it even more if I like of course, but this setting was totally harsh and gritty with everything set up the way it was previously.
A damn fine guitar she is now! Not for sale... was thinking about it, but time to get to know her for real now. |
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KOALA plugged in sound (VIP)