Posted 2016-12-29 10:31 AM (#531529) Subject: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
I acquired this guitar from my pastor at church and put it into the someday pile. That day has arrived.
My brother, Daren, plays in the worship band at his church and while talking to him one day, I mentioned this guitar. He told me that he would love to have a 'Dan Savage' guitar and that the super-shallow bowl appealed to him for a stage guitar.
He's visitiing for the holidays, so as a fun project, we decided to pull the tops off this guitar and the 1612-4, which is also my next project, which will be re-topped in tandem with this one.
Here's what the guitar looked like when I got it. To put it bluntly, it was worn out. The top was sunken, the bridge had been shaved, as had even the saddle. So, the plan was to pull the neck, then pull the top.
This guitar will be getting a torrefied Adi spruce top and braces. Since most of this work is stuff you've alread seen before, I'm only going to post highlights of stuff I'm doing that I haven't done before.
I'm going to try a couple of new things on this guitar. I'm going to try to add abalone purfling to the body a la the Custom Legend. It'll be getting a walnut carved CL bridge.
I'm also going to try making my own real abalone CL rosette. When it's done it'll be more like a Custom Ultra. Here's a couple of pics that shows how these are built.
Neck is off.
As is the top.
The neck uses a dovetail joint. Rather than convert this to a bolt-on neck, we'll be leaving this as a glue-on neck. I'll clean up the neck and body block, shim it out to where it needs to be, then glue it back on once the guitar top is finished.
Posted 2016-12-29 2:13 PM (#531545 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2004 Posts: 566
Location: Denmark
Seems to have the output jack in the same location as my 3862. This is imo not a super nice location as using a straight jack will propably lead to conflicts with your right hip or some other part of your body. Jack location is better on more recent SSBs.
Posted 2016-12-30 6:28 AM (#531560 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DanSavage - 2016-12-29 12:31 AM
...My brother, Daren, plays in the worship band at his church and while talking to him one day, I mentioned this guitar. He told me that he would love to have a 'Dan Savage' guitar and that the super-shallow bowl appealed to him for a stage guitar.
He's visitiing for the holidays, so as a fun project, we decided to pull the tops off this guitar and the 1612-4, which is also my next project, which will be re-topped in tandem with this one.
Very cool to welcome your brother to the OFC! Read his introductory post; and in true Savage form, he's headed straight for the BFLG! Welcome Daren!
It's gonna be neat following these projects, especially since, your gonna concentrate on stuff you've not touched on before, Dan. By the way, you mention "Neck is off" in passing... how'd you get that thing off so easily...all that glue had to make that a bear of a job? Inquiring minds want to know!
By the way, I'd love to have a Dan Savage O myself, and I"m saving-up for that fateful day!
Posted 2016-12-30 9:54 AM (#531564 - in reply to #531545) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
tpa - 2016-12-29 12:13 PM
Seems to have the output jack in the same location as my 3862. This is imo not a super nice location as using a straight jack will propably lead to conflicts with your right hip or some other part of your body. Jack location is better on more recent SSBs.
Yeah, I always use a 90-degree jack on my Os and for the very same reason you mention.
Posted 2016-12-30 9:59 AM (#531565 - in reply to #531560) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
arumako - 2016-12-30 4:28 AM
Very cool to welcome your brother to the OFC! Read his introductory post; and in true Savage form, he's headed straight for the BFLG! Welcome Daren!
It's gonna be neat following these projects, especially since, your gonna concentrate on stuff you've not touched on before, Dan. By the way, you mention "Neck is off" in passing... how'd you get that thing off so easily...all that glue had to make that a bear of a job? Inquiring minds want to know!
By the way, I'd love to have a Dan Savage O myself, and I"m saving-up for that fateful day!
Actually, Daren has already been luthiering. He's the one who's done all the work so far on this guitar. He watched me de-glue the fretboard extension on the 1612, then I turned him loose on this guitar.
He de-glued the fretboard extension, then we used your hot-water baggie method to get the neck off.
Once we got the neck up to 160 degrees, he started wiggling and after a while, it popped free. Luckily, there wasn't much glue contact.
Posted 2016-12-30 10:03 AM (#531566 - in reply to #531561) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
seesquare - 2016-12-30 7:25 AM
Yes, that would be essential for the archives: "The Dan Savage Neck Removal Protocol".
I just used the same method Ken outlined in one of his BFLG threads. We poured boiling-hot water into a gallon-size baggie, then draped it over the neck heel and body. We had two bags that we'd switch so there as always as hot of water as we could get.
We were using an IR thermometer to monitor the neck temp and once it got to 160 degrees or so, he started wiggling the joint to break the glue bonds.
After a few cycles, the neck popped free. Luckily, there wasn't much glue contact, otherwise it would have taken a bit longer.
Posted 2016-12-30 10:16 AM (#531567 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
So, I got an unfinished rosette from the MS to use for my own Custom Legend-style rosette.
I ordered some shell feathers from the Duke of Pearl. These are shavings of shell that are ~.005" thick. Each feather is about 1-1/4" x 5". I ordered several different varieties because I didn't know which would look best.
The top row is green abalone and the bottom row is red abalone.
Here's some mother of pearl feathers.
And a red abalone laminated sheet.
Here's a close-up of the green abalone showing the rippling in the figuring. These are really pretty, but the red abalone will look best.
Here's a close-up showing figuring of the red abalone.
Posted 2016-12-31 12:04 PM (#531596 - in reply to #531586) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Love O Fair - 2016-12-30 8:53 PM
Very cool. Does the abalone cut smoothly without chipping? How do you cut it?
Not really. It's really thin, almost as thin as a sheet of paper. And, it's pretty brittle. Cutting it with scissors is unpredictable. Sometimes it'll chip, sometimes it cuts cleanly.
Daren tried scoring it with a sharp Xacto, then breaking it along the score like thin glass. He had success with that method, but it was tedious and time-consuming.
We read back on the Duke of Pearl website for information about how to cut it and one of the hints they had was to put shipping tape on the back. We tried this and it cuts cleanly and predictably with sharp scissors. So, this is the method he's going to be using.
Posted 2016-12-31 12:22 PM (#531597 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Since Daren is only going to be here for a few more days I thought I'd let him pick out and cut the red abalone pieces for his rosette. Once they're cut and numbered I'll glue them into the rosette later on.
I used the above pics from TJR to create a template in CAD for the sections of abalone used in the rosette. This printed version on the right was used to verify the finished size.
The pieces on the left are various attempts to cut the shell feathers. The shell is very thin, about .004", so it's very delicate. Cutting with scissors is unpredictable. Cutting with an Xacto blade is also unpredictable because of how hard and brittle the shell is. The closest thing to success was to score the outline with a sharp Xacto, then breaking it along the score like thin glass. This worked, but was tedious and time-consuming. Even then, the shell was delicate and breaks easy.
Here's the template printed onto a transparency. The tracing template will be placed over the shell to find the exact orientation of the shell as it's placed around the rosette.
Here's the tracing template.
Here's the solution for cutting out the sections of shell. We stuck clear shipping tape to the back of the shell before tracing and cutting. Now the pieces can be cut with scissors and don't split or crack. We'll just leave the tape on the back of the shell permanently.
Posted 2016-12-31 6:39 PM (#531607 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1801
Location: When??
Good call on the shipper's tape. I've never really looked that closely at my abalone rosettes before (and too lazy to go do it right now) so I'm curious as to whether the factory used the same segmenting sizes and shapes you and Daren are crafting, or if they perhaps used a larger, more linear application that they could die cut to fit using less sections.. or maybe even stamped out whole, with the leftover pieces sent off to the fingerboard inlay department since I'm thinking a whole cut from a laminated sheet wouldn't really much show the butting of the strips once placed behind the painted design on the plastic. I'm also wondering what is the largest continuous-shell, non-laminated "sheet" you've seen available. Sorry so long winded with questions, but, after all, it's that traditional rosette that I think most seasoned Ovation enthusiasts' eyes first gravitate to as a unique identifier.
Posted 2017-01-02 8:38 AM (#531642 - in reply to #531607) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Love O Fair - 2016-12-31 4:39 PM
Good call on the shipper's tape. I've never really looked that closely at my abalone rosettes before (and too lazy to go do it right now) so I'm curious as to whether the factory used the same segmenting sizes and shapes you and Daren are crafting, or if they perhaps used a larger, more linear application that they could die cut to fit using less sections.. or maybe even stamped out whole, with the leftover pieces sent off to the fingerboard inlay department since I'm thinking a whole cut from a laminated sheet wouldn't really much show the butting of the strips once placed behind the painted design on the plastic. I'm also wondering what is the largest continuous-shell, non-laminated "sheet" you've seen available. Sorry so long winded with questions, but, after all, it's that traditional rosette that I think most seasoned Ovation enthusiasts' eyes first gravitate to as a unique identifier.
The factory used segments of real abalone first on the Custom Legend rosettes. Then, other guitars, such as the Collector Series got them.
These feathers are too thin to be used as inlays. I haven't bought too much shell, so my experience on the largest single piece of shell is limited. But, these pieces are pretty large.
The laminated sheets are about 2-3 times thicker than the feathers. It looks like they built the laminated sheets with the feathers. Because of the seamed nature of the laminated sheets, it would take careful planning to use these to hide the seams.
It was the pics above from TJR showing how sections of shell are used in the CL rosettes that made me lean toward using the feathers.
Yes, the sections could be bigger, but there would probably be a lot of waste.
It's funny you mention that because it wasn't until I saw a CL rosette made with real abalone that inspired me to start making my own. -- they that much nicer looking in person.
Posted 2017-01-04 11:51 AM (#531697 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Yay, I can post here, now! Thanks Damon!
As Dan wrote, before I left for home, we worked on the rosette pieces based on what I thought would look good. It didn't. It ended up looking more like mother of pearl than abalone. We decided the the green abalone will look better than the red abalone.
In honor of the randomness of the universe and MS, Dan's going to cut the new pieces for the rosette based on space considerations rather than artistic interpretation.
Posted 2017-01-05 11:14 AM (#531722 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Here's the pics of the rosette pieces. Below is the patterns from the template for the rosette sections traced onto the red ab.
And the first few pieces. Unfortunately, we chose to trace the pattern onto the front side of the shell using a Sharpee permanent marker. This caused two problems. First, it caused a build-up of ink on the underside of the template that caused the template to stick to the shell. It also bled under the template something fierce. It was also a pain to clean off the shell and on most parts it left a shadow of the ink. Cleaning off the ink made the task of cutting out the pieces long and laborious.
Here's what the final red ab pieces look like when in place. This is actually a mirror-image of what the finished rosette would look like.
Because of how thin the shell feathers are, these pieces are pretty translucent and pick up whatever color is behind them. The back of the rosette will get sprayed with flat black spray paint once the shell pieces are glued into place. This will darken them a little bit more than what the above photo shows.
We thought that the plain red ab looked too much like mother of pearl, so we decided to try the figured parts of the green ab, instead.
Here's the finished pieces of green ab sitting on the rosette. This is a mirror-image of how it will look. Again, once it's sprayed with black it will darken a little bit. It definitely doesn't look like MOP.
Instead of using a marker to trace the template, I used a mechanical pencil and that worked a lot better. It stayed on when being handled and the marks can be erased with the pencile eraser leaving no marks. But, the line is so thin that most of the time it gets cut away leaving no trace behind. This made the task of cutting out the pieces a lot easier and faster.
When we cut out the red ab pieces, we did so in a two-step process. The first step was to rough-cut all the pieces at once, then do a final fitting to the rosette. For the green ab pices I cut them to fit the rosette in one piece at a time instead of cutting out all the pieces. The accuracy of the thin pencil line vs. the thick, bleeding marker line is what made this possible.
Posted 2017-01-05 11:35 AM (#531723 - in reply to #531722) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
"The factory used segments of real abalone first on the Custom Legend rosettes. Then, other guitars, such as the Collector Series got them."
When Ovation was putting out thousands of guitars...was the process of cutting abalone done by a machine? What a tedious and meticulous process this would be. I can now see the argument for decals.
Posted 2017-01-05 12:44 PM (#531726 - in reply to #531723) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
jay - 2017-01-05 9:35 AM
"The factory used segments of real abalone first on the Custom Legend rosettes. Then, other guitars, such as the Collector Series got them."
When Ovation was putting out thousands of guitars...was the process of cutting abalone done by a machine? What a tedious and meticulous process this would be. I can now see the argument for decals.
From these photos, it looks like the shell segments could have been die-cut or cut using a pantograph.
If they're sized correctly, and supplied to the factory in bulk, it wouldn't be that much trouble to assemble these rosettes in a production environment. Having to cut them by hand is the time-consuming part. Still, abalonoid is cheaper and easier than segments of abalone. Less breakage and waste, too.
I don't think they ever did the rosette with real MOP. I bought some when I ordered the abalone because I thought it would be interesting to see a real MOP rosette.
Posted 2017-01-05 1:22 PM (#531729 - in reply to #531722) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-01-05 11:14 AM
When we cut out the red ab pieces, we did so in a two-step process. The first step was to rough-cut all the pieces at once, then do a final fitting to the rosette. For the green ab pices I cut them to fit the rosette in one piece at a time instead of cutting out all the pieces. The accuracy of the thin pencil line vs. the thick, bleeding marker line is what made this possible.
The new rosette looks great! I'm glad to hear the new process went a lot quicker and easier.
Posted 2017-01-05 6:00 PM (#531735 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2014 Posts: 704
Location: moline,illinois
Awesome job on the rosette,I love how you maintained the continuity of the figuring of the shell where possible,what about a clear rosette that allowed all the nuances of the shell to show through,that could be cool.
Posted 2017-01-05 6:21 PM (#531736 - in reply to #531729) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
DarenSavage - 2017-01-05 11:22 AM
The new rosette looks great! I'm glad to hear the new process went a lot quicker and easier.
Daren
Yeah, me, too.
At this point I'm going to set the rosette aside until the new top is on and finished and the neck is glued into place. I can't really fit the rosette to the neck until the neck is attached to the bowl.
Posted 2017-01-05 6:25 PM (#531737 - in reply to #531735) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
2wheeldrummer - 2017-01-05 4:00 PM
Awesome job on the rosette,I love how you maintained the continuity of the figuring of the shell where possible,what about a clear rosette that allowed all the nuances of the shell to show through,that could be cool.
Posted 2017-01-10 1:55 PM (#531868 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
I spent some time cleaning up the body in preparation for joining the new top.
I cleaned the glue out of the dovetail mortise in the neck block. This was actually the first job I did. I used a heat gun to warm the glue, then an Xacto razor chisel to get under the glue to separate it from the underlying wood. In areas where it didn't matter, such as the shallow channel in the middle of the neck block, I just left the glue as it didn't hurt anything.
I also used the heat gun to soften the glue holding the remnants of the old top to the kerfed lining and top of the neck block. It was definitely a lot easier and faster to do this job with a heat gun rather than cold chiseling.
I removed all the old glue from the neck. I could have removed it from the sides of the dovetail, but the glue was filling a shallow groove, so I decided to just leave it in place rather than having to re-fill it again later on.
I still need to remove the glue remnants from the underside of the fret board extension.
Now that all the glue is removed I tested the fit of the neck to the body. Not bad.
It's fit is a little sloppy, but all in all it should work just fine. I'll fine-tune the fit as I go.
Posted 2017-01-10 3:13 PM (#531872 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Wow! This guitar seems to be coming apart pretty cleanly. Definitely makes the retopping go easier. It's still a lot of work, but at least there's not more work on top of it. Pun intended.
Posted 2017-01-10 6:41 PM (#531881 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Yeah, using the heat gun to get the old remnants off really made the job a lot easier. Had I done the job with Dremel, Xacto and scraper, it would have taken a lot longer, not to mention producing a whole lot more sanding dust. More importantly, the neck and top glue joints are back down to the original wood with no extra taken off.
Posted 2017-01-11 7:19 PM (#531927 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Thanks LOF. Lucky for you I'm new to luthiering. Wood/fiber glass construction I know, guitar terms and especially, Ovation model numbers...I got a lot to learn!
Posted 2017-01-17 9:53 AM (#532050 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
I was able to joint the top in preparation for joining. I also rough cut all the brace stock.
I'm planning to join the tops for all four guitars at the same time so that I can take them down to the sanders and have them all thickness sanded together.
While each top is drying I'll be cutting out the braces.
Posted 2017-02-04 12:43 AM (#532536 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
I worked the Joshua Bell concert tonight in Los Alamos. Here's a photo of him with his $5 million Stradivarius violin. He was nice enough to accommodate my request for a photo after his rehearsal.
He looked at me a little weird when I told him my bro rebuilt guitars and would love a photo of him with his Strad (Shhh! Don't tell Joshua I really just wanted a photo of his Strad).
Posted 2017-02-06 3:04 PM (#532580 - in reply to #532547) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Parts of the concert were really good (Carmen), parts were not really my cup of tea (atonal numbers).
He traded in his $2 milllion Strad for this one. He owns it and it never left his side. When you get tired of Ovations, you can switch to upgrading Strads with torrified tops!
Posted 2017-02-07 11:52 AM (#532613 - in reply to #532580) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: May 2011 Posts: 755
Location: Muenster/Germany
DarenSavage - 2017-02-06 10:04 PM
He traded in his $2 milllion Strad for this one. He owns it and it never left his side. When you get tired of Ovations, you can switch to upgrading Strads with torrified tops!
Who knows? My new Ovation with a Dan Savage top is slowly going to become my favourite right after the 1688...
Posted 2017-02-07 12:55 PM (#532618 - in reply to #532580) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
DarenSavage - 2017-02-06 1:04 PM
Parts of the concert were really good (Carmen), parts were not really my cup of tea (atonal numbers).
He traded in his $2 milllion Strad for this one. He owns it and it never left his side. When you get tired of Ovations, you can switch to upgrading Strads with torrified tops!
Yeah, if I owned an instrument worth that much and took it to a concert, it wouldn't be far from me, either.
I don't know that I'd be re-topping a Strad worth $5 million. I'd probably start with a Stewmac fiddle kit that costs only $199, then add a torrefied top for another $65.
Technically speaking, since the Strad is about 500 years old, it's top is pretty much the same thing as torrefied wood.
Posted 2017-02-08 1:00 AM (#532637 - in reply to #532632) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
DanSavage - 2017-02-07 8:42 PM
So, a museum-kept Strad is not going to sound as 'luscious' as one that is plated regularly.
Yup... As I have heard, a Museum-kept guitar, lute, violin, harp, is just OLD.
That is why all of those Strad violins are in the hands of concert violinists.
They don't OWN them... But the millionaires who do own them know that they have to be played.
Otherwise, you paid $15Million for a wall hanger.
Posted 2017-02-08 7:01 PM (#532657 - in reply to #532637) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Old Man Arthur - 2017-02-08 1:00 M
That is why all of those Strad violins are in the hands of concert violinists.
They don't OWN them... But the millionaires who do own them know that they have to be played.
Otherwise, you paid $15Million for a wall hanger.
One of my dance students has a music teacher in Vienna with a $20 million Strad. I think hers is a player, not a looker (unless you're one of her music students).
Posted 2017-02-15 10:14 AM (#532775 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Got the top rough cut. (first cutaway re-top) Sound hole is cut. All braces are made and being glued down. I'll pull the top off the gobar deck this afternoon, then work on the 1612 top.
Posted 2017-02-15 4:07 PM (#532779 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal
Ok people. Gonna let you in on a little secret here. Dan and Daren are not just brothers. They are identical twins. I mean Patty Duke Show twins! Look alike, walk alike, at times they even talk alike. They only way, on first look, to distinguish them apart is the cut of their facial hair.
Posted 2017-02-15 6:40 PM (#532786 - in reply to #532779) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
moody, p.i. - 2017-02-15 2:07 PM
Ok people. Gonna let you in on a little secret here. Dan and Daren are not just brothers. They are identical twins. I mean Patty Duke Show twins! Look alike, walk alike, at times they even talk alike. They only way, on first look, to distinguish them apart is the cut of their facial hair.
Really cool......
Technically, we're fraternal twins. The genes run strong in our family. Here's a pic of all of us taken Christmas Day 2016.
From left to right is Daren, Daren's dog Greta (she's shy) my daughter Rachel, my sister Tammy, my other daughter Rosalyn, wife Martine and me.
Posted 2017-02-15 6:54 PM (#532789 - in reply to #532775) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-02-15 10:14 AM
Got the top rough cut. (first cutaway re-top) Sound hole is cut. All braces are made and being glued down. I'll pull the top off the gobar deck this afternoon, then work on the 1612 top.
Wow! I'm proud to be your first cutaway re-top. I know its mine because the body is the background.
Posted 2017-02-16 1:06 AM (#532793 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1801
Location: When??
Dan & Daren.. great looking family! What do your hats say on them?
Greta's thoughts: "I really hate it when that weird little box flashes light at me... and I think it's about to do it again!"
Posted 2017-02-16 9:45 AM (#532796 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks.
The hats have the logo below. Daren is the director of the Atomic City Children's Theater in Los Alamos, NM. This year we all got ACCT hats for Christmas.
Posted 2017-02-27 6:08 PM (#532977 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Actually, pretty similar.
Both Paul's 1117 and your 1528 have Adirondack spruce tops. Yours is just a little darker.
What is different about these four guitars is how the tops sound when they're tapped.
Paul's 1117 is the most hollow sound, followed by the 1612. This isn't really surprising because they're both deep bowls with similar brace patterns. I attribute the difference to the Adi top and hand-laid bowl on the 1117, with the Sitka spruce top and SMC bowl on the 1612.
Next is the 1778T, followed by your 1518. Again, not surprising because the 1778T is a medium depth bowl and yours is a super-shallow bowl.
Don't get me wrong, they all will sound great. Just different from each other.
Posted 2017-03-05 8:30 PM (#533062 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
I worked the Baltimore Consort concert this evening. Ronn McFarlane was nice enough to share his lute with me (to look at and photograph, not play - more about Ronn's custom lute here - Ronn kept his lute in his hand the entire concert; even during breaks!). This lute is about a year old and was built by Travis Carey.
I told Ronn about my luthier bro, Dan and his plans to built a wooden back Ovation. I also talked to him about Dan using torrified wood, and explained the significance of what it is and why it's used.
I was surprised that the lute is actually sections of flat bent wood rather than a true round back.
More of the back.
All of the Baltimore Consort's string instruments had intricately carved sound holes. As is usually the case in life, I wish I had taken more photos of the other instruments.
The fretting was interesting. It was string that wrapped around the neck. As Ronn explained it, it allowed for minor adjustments in tuning, unlike a guitar with it's permanent frets. Rather than re-tie the string frets, when adjustments are made, they insert little pieces of toothpicks to maintain the necessary tension.
Posted 2017-03-05 8:55 PM (#533063 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: March 2013 Posts: 359
Location: undisclosed
Gut frets/strings. Ba ba blacksheep. That is a really unusual lute with ten courses and the bass extension. Around 7 was common but towards the end additional strings were sometimes added. Lute sound holes are called rosettes and featured intricate carving and were the only traditional bling on a lute. Thanks for posting!
Posted 2017-03-05 9:19 PM (#533065 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks for posting these pics, Daren. I find this kind of stuff extremely interesting as the guitar was an outgrowth of the lute.
In traditional lutes, the frets, like the strings are gut.
When the lute made the transition from the potato bug back, to the pinched waist we associate with modern guitars, the bowl-back persisted and is known as a vaulted-back guitar.
Potato-bug bowl mandolins also use flat panels, (staves) as do most vaulted-back guitars. The Alvarez DY92 was a modern vaulted-back guitar. The DY92 started with thicker (1/4" or so) pieces of wood, which were sanded to a round shape on the outside to be aesthetically pleasing.
My wood-bowl Ovation(s) will be rounded, but unlike the DY92, I will be bending a compound curve into each stave using steam. The staves will be thickness sanded to near-final thickness (~.080" before bending and joining to maximize the resonance of the bowl. I will be relying on my experience edge-joining/sheeting model airplane fuselages. I'm planning to make the jigs and forms using 3D CAD and laser-cut wood.
Posted 2017-03-05 9:35 PM (#533066 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Speaking of torrefied wood guitars, I see now that Ibanez is offering a guitar that has, not only torrefied Adirondack spruce top with torrefied Adi X-braces, but also a torrefied East Indian rosewood (EIR) back, torrefied mahogany neck, torrefied EIR fretboard and torrefied EIR bridge.
IOW, it's the closest thing to a 300-year-old wood-box guitar that anyone can buy. I would imagine the sound is nothing short of spectacular. (or, close to how your Aspen AD-35 sounds - LOL!)
Posted 2017-03-06 3:28 AM (#533069 - in reply to #533063) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
You're welcome. As Ronn explained, he added the extra bass extensions to simplify his playing by playing them open rather than trying to make complex fingering. Truly high level stuff.
Posted 2017-03-06 3:33 AM (#533070 - in reply to #533066) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-03-05 9:35 PM
Speaking of torrefied wood guitars, I see now that Ibanez is offering a guitar that has, not only torrefied Adirondack spruce top with torrefied Adi X-braces, but also a torrefied East Indian rosewood (EIR) back, torrefied mahogany neck, torrefied EIR fretboard and torrefied EIR bridge.
IOW, it's the closest thing to a 300-year-old wood-box guitar that anyone can buy. I would imagine the sound is nothing short of spectacular. (or, close to how your Aspen AD-35 sounds - LOL!)
Yah, man. The '35 still amazes me every time I pick it up. If I didn't have it, I might consider the Ibanez.
Posted 2017-03-06 3:55 AM (#533071 - in reply to #533065) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-03-05 9:19 PM
My wood-bowl Ovation(s) will be rounded, but unlike the DY92, I will be bending a compound curve into each stave using steam. The staves will be thickness sanded to near-final thickness (~.080") before bending and joining to maximize the resonance of the bowl. I will be relying on my experience edge-joining/sheeting model airplane fuselages. I'm planning to make the jigs and forms using 3D CAD and laser-cut wood.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing this info.
Dan
You're welcome. Ronn was very nice and accommodating. They rehearsed for a couple of hours before the show. At one point, Ronn saw me admiring his lute from the edge of the stage and brought over to me. That's when we re-positioned in better light for my mini photo shoot.
How will you achieve the compound curve on the staves? I would think an inside and outside mold would be needed.
Posted 2017-03-06 8:24 AM (#533073 - in reply to #533071) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
DarenSavage - 2017-03-06 1:55 AM You're welcome. Ronn was very nice and accommodating. They rehearsed for a couple of hours before the show. At one point, Ronn saw me admiring his lute from the edge of the stage and brought over to me. That's when we re-positioned in better light for my mini photo shoot.
How will you achieve the compound curve on the staves? I would think an inside and outside mold would be needed.
Very cool of him.
I'm planning to design the mold in 3D CAD to make it with egg-crate style interlocking sections. Then, I may sheet it to form a smooth surface and fiberglass it to seal it.
Then, I'll steam the stave to soften the wood. Rockler sells a steam bending kit. (See: Rockler Steam Bending Kit)
To make the wood conform to the shape of the mold, I'll borrow an old trick from our modeling days and wrap the stave and mold using an Ace bandage and let it dry.
I may make two or three molds so that I can speed the bending process up. Each guitar will need 8 mahogany and 7 rosewood staves.
Posted 2017-03-06 12:33 PM (#533076 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: May 2011 Posts: 755
Location: Muenster/Germany
All this sounds terrific complicated and extensive. Wouldn´t it be easier to built a wooden bowl like a dugout canoe, out of one piece (a rosewood stump)?.
..ok.just kidding..
Posted 2017-03-06 3:03 PM (#533077 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Detlef,
Yes, that would be one way to do it. That's how carved balsa hollow nose cones are done. You stick thumbtacks into the outside, then sand until the tips are exposed to get a uniform thickness.
Posted 2017-03-06 4:02 PM (#533079 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho
If you go back in the archives to 2006 or 07, there was a thread about a wooden roundback that Jeff sent on a tour of OFCers around the country. Several of them were made over in Cambodia or thereabouts.
Posted 2017-03-10 10:52 AM (#533157 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Wow, I repaired my first Steinway today. Or, more accurately, I repaired it yesterday (didn't take before photos), and let the glue dry until today.
We have a regular guy who services the Steinway before concerts. When he was in here for the Joshua Bell concert, he noticed that a piece of felt had come loose and was interfering with one of the lower E keys. He fixed it with Tite-Bond, but as it's a wood glue, it really needs 24 hours to cure. He only had a few hours before the concert.
Sometime after the concert, the glue joint failed and the felt again folded over to interfere with the key. I spoke to him and we identified the problem, and I fixed it.
I searched for something to use as a clamp to hold the felt in place. As it turns out, paint stirring sticks were the perfect width.
A close up of the wood clamping the felt in place. It also worked a mask to keep the glue from dripping on (or into) the keys. I used a narrow screw driver as a palate knife.
Posted 2017-03-10 12:31 PM (#533160 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Kewl deal! I understand completely about waiting until you have all the parts. Measure twice and cut once (not the other way around, especially with your favorite brother's custom Ovation).
Posted 2017-03-25 2:49 PM (#533399 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Got the abalone purfling glued into place and razor-planed down.
I've never done abalone purfling before, so this one took a deep breath and crossed fingers before diving in.
To make the job a little easier, I used Zipflex, which is avaiable through Stewmac. This is the same stuff used my several manufacturers, including Ovation. It's pretty pricey, but after doing the job, it's worth every penny, both from a visual and from an ease of use standpoint.
When I've done the BWB purfling and binding, I use two strips of purfling and the binding. Needless to say, applying the glue to three pieces, then holding them in place while applying the strips of masking tape is a task that requires a lot of concentration. This is because the acrylic glue (basically Duco cement) dries pretty quickly, so I can only work about 6" at a time to assure myself that I don't end up with dry glue joints.
The Zipflex is basically short strips of abalone inside a flexible plastic/vinyl channel. The normal binding glue doesn't grab onto it. The Zipflex folks recommend using CA to glue the purfling to the body. They also recommend using a sealer in the grooves so the CA doesn't wick into the wood and discolor it.
I did some tests on torrefied scrap and found that the CA doesn't permanently discolor the wood. I planned to use BW purfling on both sides of the Zipflex. The Zipflex folks suggest glueing one strip at a time starting with the inner, then gluing the Zipflex to the inner, then gluing the outer.
I found that gluing the inner and the Zipflex at the same time worked okay, so that's what I did. Once this was done, I went back and glued the outer BW purfling. The Zipflex is about half the height of the BW purfling, so I used a razor plane to bring the height of the BW purfling down to the thickness of the Zipflex. That's what you're seeing in the photo above.
I'll glue the binding on this afternoon after I clean any excess glue out of the binding groove. I got the binding/purfling on Paul's 1117 this morning before doing Daren's 1528.
Because of how well the CA used to glue the purfling on this guitar, I'm thinking of using CA to glue the BWB purfling on the 1612 and 1778 instead of the acrylic glue because I can work more slowly and don't have to worry about dealing with three strips at a once. Instead, I can glue the purfling into place, then go back and glue the binding.
Posted 2017-03-25 7:51 PM (#533408 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks, Ken, and YVW.
This guitar represents a couple of firsts for me. It's the first cut-away I've done and the first one with abalone purfling. Speaking of which, although Stewmac only offers green abalone, the ZipFlex folks offer a full complement of shellfish ZipFlex.
I'm really glad that I decided to go forward with the ZipFlex instead of chickening out and using BWB purfling on this guitar. Now I have the knowledge and experience to add abalone purfling on the wood bowl CL when the time comes, which I fully intend to do. I may even add abalone purfling to the wood-bowl Elite.
After going through the process, it's not as scary as I first thought. There are a couple of minor flaws, mainly due to the CA grabbing at an in-opportune time, particularly around the cut-away, but now I know not to try to glue too much at a time.
Posted 2017-03-28 8:47 PM (#533436 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
I got the binding/purfling scraped down.
I sprayed the top with naptha, then put the bridge and rosette in place to get an idea of what the guitar will look like when it's done.
I've decided that trying to get four guitars done at once is a little too much work. So, I'm going to concentrate on getting this guitar and Paul's 1117 done, then go back and finish the 1612 and 1778.
Next job on this guitar is to get the bridge and top masked off in preparation for spraying the sealer/primer.
Posted 2017-04-07 7:02 PM (#533579 - in reply to #533309) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Jonmark Stone - 2017-03-20 2:45 PM
You going to use the Eastwood finish on these, Dan?
A couple of things. I didn't answer earlier, but I used this finishing system on Jay's #485 and it works fine. (Minwax polyu as the primer and Eastwood 2K as the finish coats)
I also wanted to let you know that the Eastwood 2K Aerospray High Gloss is on sale right now for $19.97 / can instead of the usual $24.99 / can.
I'd planned to buy only three cans for these four guitars, but with the drop in price I was able to buy four cans for about the same as what three would have cost.
I don't know when the sale is going to end, but given how well this stuff works for guitars you might want to jump on it.
Posted 2017-04-18 9:24 AM (#533748 - in reply to #533736) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
"I used this finishing system on Jay's #485"
I am not sure how Dan could improve on finishing out a top. 485 has a beautiful top, that looks every bit of the guitars age, only in pristine condition. Dan got it perfect, right out of the gate. Thanks again!
Posted 2017-04-18 9:56 AM (#533750 - in reply to #533748) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks, Jay and you're welcome.
I just finished polishing the tops of Daren's and Paul's guitars and they look great. Unfortunately, the photos in the shop don't really do them justice.
Hopefully the outdoor shots will capture some of their beauty.
Posted 2017-04-18 11:50 AM (#533753 - in reply to #533751) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Yeah, me, too!
The fingerboard will look really nice once it's oiled. Right now, it's dry from sanding/cleaning. I usually don't oil the bare wood parts until after the guitar is fully assembled.
I'll post a pic of the finished top tonight after I glue/clamp the bridge into place.
Posted 2017-04-19 3:25 AM (#533768 - in reply to #533766) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
After careful consideration, I have 3 reactions to this photo.
1. The 3M 2130 sandpaper shows there's no substitute for elbow grease; and Dan has plenty to spare.
2. The rattle-can finish shows its not the tools one uses, so much as who is using the tool.
3. Pretty soon, this piece of art will be mine.
Posted 2017-04-24 5:30 PM (#533891 - in reply to #533885) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-04-24 1:41 PM
Just a quick update. The top/body is done.
I'm freshening up the finish on the neck/headstock this week. Once that's done, I'll glue the neck to the body.
After that, it's time to glue on the rosette and string it up.
This guitar should be ready to play by next weekend. :D
Now that's the kind of update I'm talkin' about!
Seriously, I joke about getting the O asap, but I know you're working diligently on it ('cause you want the sweet moola in your pocket!). I'm totally okay knowing it will be done when there's nothing else to do and it passes the Dan inspection.
Posted 2017-04-29 8:10 PM (#533962 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Yes, it is. Even though there are a few flaws here and there, all in all I'm very happy with how it turned out. I'd be proud to have this one in my stable, but even prouder to have it in your stable.
It sounds good. As a SS bowl, it doesn't have the same resonant sound as a deep bowl, but it keeps sounding better the more I play it.
Interestingly, torrefied Adi spruce has a tighter sound than torrefied Sitka spruce. As Paul has noted on his 1117 thread, his Adi-topped guitar continues to loosen up the more he plays it. Even though I've only been playing this for a few hours, I've noticed the same thing with your guitar.
It almost makes me want to put it on the primeVibe for a few days to loosen up the top.
Posted 2017-04-29 8:22 PM (#533963 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
WOW! That has got to be the most exotic Ultra the world has ever known. Even with an SSB, my '94 1861 resonates quite a bit and has a sweet sweet voice. With torrefied implements like these, this Ultra is bound to open up. Are you planning on putting her through the PrimeVibe?
Posted 2017-04-29 9:52 PM (#533965 - in reply to #533963) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
arumako - 2017-04-29 6:22 PM
WOW! That has got to be the most exotic Ultra the world has ever known. Even with an SSB, my '94 1861 resonates quite a bit and has a sweet sweet voice. With torrefied implements like these, this Ultra is bound to open up. Are you planning on putting her through the PrimeVibe?
I've been playing this all afternoon and I'm really digging the sound of this guitar.
I had been playing it in the garage with a fan running, etc. But, when I took it into the quiet living room, I discovered it likes to be played softly, almost like a parlor guitar. It's got a super-nice tone.
I was thinking of putting it on the primeVibe, but now I'm thinking I need to box this up and ship it off to its rightful owner and let him enjoy it.
Posted 2017-04-30 3:05 PM (#533976 - in reply to #533962) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-04-29 8:10 PM
It almost makes me want to put it on the primeVibe for a few days to loosen up the top.
That would be okay with me. As much as I'd like to get my hands on this O, I'm going to be pretty busy the next week and wouldn't be able to give it the attention it deserves.
Posted 2017-04-30 3:11 PM (#533977 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2004 Posts: 566
Location: Denmark
Wow. It is admirable how perfect it looks. Nice gloss and no dust, no runners, no stuck mosquitos and no orange peel. Just ... perfect. I know opinions towards SSBs vary. I have a SSB wood topped center hole Ovation and a mid depth Adamas. I must admit that I often prefer the - to my ears - warmer sound of the Ovation.
Posted 2017-04-30 5:42 PM (#533980 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2014 Posts: 704
Location: moline,illinois
My Oh My that is one pretty guitar,your brothers a lucky man!!!!
When you say Adi has a tighter sound do you mean more focused notes fewer harmonics??just curious.
That definitely deserves a custom label whatever the flaws are they're not obvious.
Posted 2017-04-30 6:23 PM (#533981 - in reply to #533980) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks, JM & tpa.
Kevin,
When I write tighter, I mean it sounds more like a brand-new guitar. Adi spruce is stiffer than Sitka and this difference is apparent, to my ear, at least.
It's still got the great volume and terrific sustain I've come to expect from torrefied wood along with clear separation of the notes. The more I play it, the better it sounds.
Whereas a torrefied Sitka guitar might take a few days to reach its peak, I suspect a torrefied Adi guitar might take a couple of weeks of regular playing.
So, to accelerate this, I'm going to use my primeVibe to compress this into a few days.
Both are still a lot louder and clearer than their non-torrefied top counterparts. But, at the end of the day, the Adi will be louder and clearer than the Sitka. This is just the inherent characteristics of these two species of wood.
Posted 2017-05-01 7:59 PM (#534000 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal
It's interesting how fast a torrefied top with start opening up. I've been playing my Legend a lot since Dan finished it and it sounds better each day. Thanks Dan.....
Posted 2017-05-01 9:00 PM (#534001 - in reply to #534000) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
YVW, Paul.
I noticed the same thing with this guitar. Every time I sat down and played, it keeps sounding better. I've got it on the gizmo right now and will be pulling it off tomorrow night. It'll be interesting to see (hear?) how it sounds when it's done.
Posted 2017-05-05 3:51 PM (#535069 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
I receive my Custom Ultra today. I was going to take some photos, but Dan had a better idea; tune it up and play it.
What a sweet sounding guitar! It's beauty is only surpassed by the way it plays and sounds. Even my beloved AD-35 doesn't sound this good. I can really hear the resonance of the torrified wood. Dan set up the action to be similar to an electric guitar. At one point, I found myself playing a bit harder than what the CU liked. Once I softened my touch, that sweet sound came back.
Thanks for a Ovation that I'm proud to have in my small, but growing collection.
Posted 2017-05-07 12:58 PM (#535083 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1555
Location: Indiana
You've done so much to make this guitar special... it'd be easy to overlook how beautiful your custom rosette turned out.
Awesome job on everything Dan.
Posted 2017-05-07 7:53 PM (#535087 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
After living with the CU for a couple of days, here are my initial impressions.
1. The photos just don't do the abalone justice. The photos pick up the colors, but they don't pick up the luminescence of the abalone.
2. I'm totally digging on the SSB. I've been playing with the neck strap and a pick (carefully!). Even though the SSB loses some of the bass, the torrified top gives it back some umpf.
3. I love the tuners. Very precise; makes it easy to tune.
Posted 2017-05-07 7:58 PM (#535088 - in reply to #535086) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Jonmark Stone - 2017-05-07 7:44 PM
Ooops... well, you did a great job gluing that one on.
Still, a beautiful guitar.
Actually, Dan took the narrow rosette and cut a single piece of abalone to fit. If you look closely at his beauty shots, there are no seams in the rosette's abalone.
I personally prefer a narrow rosette on a cut-away O. The full size rosette makes the body look small and out of proportion to the neck. The narrow rosette restores the balance. YMMV.
Posted 2017-05-08 8:08 AM (#535089 - in reply to #535088) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks for the kind words, Daren.
I'd love to take credit for the rosette, but that's one that came from the MS. Not sure what guitar these are used on, but I believe the Celebrity wore these narrow rosettes.
But, you're right. On this guitar. the narrow rosette looks terrific.
Posted 2017-05-09 12:03 AM (#535094 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
For grins and giggles, I plugged my CU into my amp...and nothing but a humm. Luckily, my luthier was only a phone call away. Dan identified what he thought might be the problem.
I removed the amp system for testing and found a small problem.
Uh, that's not good. Unfortunately, while fixing one problem, it created two more problems.
But, as Dan says, this isn't rocket science, and I was able to solder the red into the + and the black wire into the - on the pre-amp board and I have a amplified guitar again. Yay!
It seems between the age of the guitar, and the cross country journey jarred the one power cable loose. Then when I ham-handed the repair of the one power cable, it broke loose the other two cables from the circuit board.
Happily, all is good and I learned a little more about Ovation luthiery. :D
Posted 2017-05-09 8:13 AM (#535095 - in reply to #535088) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DarenSavage - 2017-05-07 9:58 AM
I personally prefer a narrow rosette on a cut-away O. The full size rosette makes the body look small and out of proportion to the neck. The narrow rosette restores the balance. YMMV.
+1
Glad you got the electronics worked out. Perhaps a video?
Posted 2017-05-09 9:55 AM (#535097 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
At first, it was just the positive at the joint on the socket. Then, after I got the pre-amp apart and soldered the positive back on the socket, I notice both power wires had come free of the board. Old, delicate wires.
Posted 2017-05-09 6:01 PM (#535101 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Ha ha! Well, that was a fun scare I gave myself. I plugged in the CU to play it on the amp, and...nothing. Again. What?! I really didn't want to have to tear into the pre-amp again. To be sure, I tested using Darth Ovation and the system worked. Then I wondered how the volume was set on the CU. Zero.
Once I turned up the volume on the guitar, I had guitar sounds coming from the amp. Yay!
Posted 2017-05-09 10:45 PM (#535103 - in reply to #535101) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DarenSavage - 2017-05-09 8:01 AM
Ha ha! Well, that was a fun scare I gave myself. I plugged in the CU to play it on the amp, and...nothing. Again. What?! I really didn't want to have to tear into the pre-amp again. To be sure, I tested using Darth Ovation and the system worked. Then I wondered how the volume was set on the CU. Zero.
Once I turned up the volume on the guitar, I had guitar sounds coming from the amp. Yay!
That's funny! I've done that a bunch of times! Sorry to hear there's no chance for a video...I guess I'm just gonna have to get my very own "Savage" Ovation. BTW are you the Sith Lord of O?
Posted 2017-05-11 9:06 AM (#535116 - in reply to #535114) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DarenSavage - 2017-05-10 7:30 PM
My apolgiies, Arumako. I thought you were asking for a video of the pre-amp repair process. Here's a short clip of my Custom Ultra.
No, no...wasn't wanting to see Darth Ovation soldering loose wires on to a PCB! But thanks for the sound sample video...WOW! Your Custom Ultra sounds incredible...I'm sure your recording tools were relatively simple, but that resonance is something to behold.
I can tell I've totally underestimated the torrefied sound board. I kind of assumed that since my 1861 is over 20 years old, that a torrefied SSB would sound about as good, and I am not ashamed to say that my 1861 SSB sounds really really good. She's one of the few early X-braced builds, and she has a deep satisfying voice...especially for a SSB, but yours is kinda in a different class...if I'm not mistaken, Dan prefers light or extra light strings, so I suspect those are extra light Daddy 80/20s or Elixirs? The sustain is killer.
The video also clarifies what you all meant when you say your Custom Ultra prefers subtlety over hard aggressive playing. And how about that rosette? Together with the Zipflex purfling she is just stunning. What an inspiring conclusion to an awesome project!
You know what...with results like this, you can bet the Mother Ship has some torrefied projects either in the wings or in process. Incredible!
DanSavage - 2017-05-10 12:10 AM
Paul and I are meeting up with the guitar gang Friday night. I'll try to get some video of him playing his 1117.
Please, please! Looking forward to hearing moody, p.i.'s 1117 too.
Posted 2017-05-11 10:57 AM (#535119 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Thanks arumako. Yes, Elixir extra light strings. As you can probably tell, the first part of the video is acoustic, the second part with the amp plugged in.
Posted 2017-05-26 10:37 AM (#535295 - in reply to #535236) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DarenSavage - 2017-05-19 6:27 AM
1979 Aspen AD-35 vs. 197? Ovation Custom Ultra
Here's a video of a quick comparison between the two guitars. They probably couldn't be more different; Dreadnought vs. Super Shallow Bowl.
Both are beautiful playing and sounding guitars, but to my untrained ears, the Custom Ultra has a little more clarity of sound than the AD-35.
Thanks for the additional video Daren! That Aspen is in great condition and sounds superb! Did they sell those in the States new? For those of us in Japan who could never afford a Martin, we bought those, and other Martin copies, back in the day. They still are a great value for the sound. I think they were made by the Tokai factory. Very nostalgic piece there! She does seem to have a mellower voice than the Ultra.
Your Custom Ultra has a really clean punch to it, that is so characteristic of the Os, but she seems to have more of a natural chorus, and has an impressive...sensitivity/dynamic range...to it. I really enjoy these comparison videos. Thanks for taking the time to share!
Posted 2017-05-26 6:51 PM (#535304 - in reply to #535295) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Hi Ken,
Yes. The Aspen guitar line was imported in the 1970s. Importation was stopped when Martin sued, not only the company importing the Aspen line, but also Alvarez and a whole host of hangers-on.
I agree. The Aspen guitars were one of the Japan imports that were a great value for the dollar, just like Yamaha.
The story behind this guitar is that when Daren and I were teenagers, we were avid about learning to play the guitar. Around our 17th birthday we were taken to the local music store to try out guitars.
I fell in love with a Yamaha FG-260 12-string and Daren, with an Aspen AD-18, which was a Martin-clone. Daren got the Aspen and I got the Yamaha.
The Aspen AD-18 has a solid Sitka spruce top, X-brace, Mahogany sides and back, ebony fingerboard and bridge. After a few years, the bridge split, rendering the guitar more or less unplayable.
Fast-forward to the present. I went to a local guitar show (think: swap meet) to pick up the Ovation 1717 hulk. While I was looking through the guy's extensive collection of guitars for sale, (50+) I spotted an Aspen AD-35.
The AD-35 was a short-lived model in the Aspen line-up. It was their top-of-the-line model. The top was AAA Sitka spruce with an X-brace pattern. But, what makes these guitars really special is that in the 1970s, Aspen was using solid Brazilian rosewood for the sides and back wood.
When I spotted the late-70s AD-35 for sale, I checked with the accountant (SWMBO) and told her that I thought this would be a really kewl Christmas present, I was cleared to make the purchase.
So, I bought the guitar, did a set up on it, bought a case, (played it a bunch!) then stashed it away until Christmas morning, 2016.
arumako - 2017-05-26 8:37 AM
Thanks for the additional video Daren! That Aspen is in great condition and sounds superb! Did they sell those in the States new? For those of us in Japan who could never afford a Martin, we bought those, and other Martin copies, back in the day. They still are a great value for the sound. I think they were made by the Tokai factory. Very nostalgic piece there! She does seem to have a mellower voice than the Ultra.
Your Custom Ultra has a really clean punch to it, that is so characteristic of the Os, but she seems to have more of a natural chorus, and has an impressive...sensitivity/dynamic range...to it. I really enjoy these comparison videos. Thanks for taking the time to share!
Posted 2017-05-27 7:32 AM (#535306 - in reply to #535304) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DanSavage - 2017-05-26 8:51 AM
Hi Ken,
The story behind this guitar is that when Daren and I were teenagers, we were avid about learning to play the guitar. Around our 17th birthday we were taken to the local music store to try out guitars.
I fell in love with a Yamaha FG-260 12-string and Daren, with an Aspen AD-18, which was a Martin-clone. Daren got the Aspen and I got the Yamaha.
The Aspen AD-18 has a solid Sitka spruce top, X-brace, Mahogany sides and back, ebony fingerboard and bridge. After a few years, the bridge split, rendering the guitar more or less unplayable.
Fast-forward to the present. I went to a local guitar show (think: swap meet) to pick up the Ovation 1717 hulk. While I was looking through the guy's extensive collection of guitars for sale, (50+) I spotted an Aspen AD-35.
The AD-35 was a short-lived model in the Aspen line-up. It was their top-of-the-line model. The top was AAA Sitka spruce with an X-brace pattern. But, what makes these guitars really special is that in the 1970s, Aspen was using solid Brazilian rosewood for the sides and back wood.
When I spotted the late-70s AD-35 for sale, I checked with the accountant (SWMBO) and told her that I thought this would be a really kewl Christmas present, I was cleared to make the purchase.
So, I bought the guitar, did a set up on it, bought a case, (played it a bunch!) then stashed it away until Christmas morning, 2016.
That's a great story Dan and Daren. What an awesome Christmas gift! I didn't know they sold the Aspens in the States. After the Martin law suits, I think Tokai changed the name to "Cat's Eyes" (or something like that) and sold them only in Japan.
Then for Daren to get a Dan Savage Custom Ultra...WOW! Philadelphia at its finest! The FG-260 is an awesome 12-string. Do you still have it? It has that cool (and unusual - at least for Yamaha) slot head. Every once in a while an FG-260 will show up over here, but I've never found one in good enough condition. I love my '72 FG-160 that a mentor of mine gave to me - laminated back and sides with a solid Sitka Spruce top. She sounds terrific - wish the head stock was a slot head though.
Posted 2017-05-27 6:07 PM (#535311 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
Aspen vs. Aspen - Comparing the AD-18 & AD-35
Here's a short comparison of my Aspens; the AD-18 and AD-35. Both are about the same age, give or take a year. Since we're talking about the differences between the the AD-18 and AD-35, I thought comparing the sound of the the AD-18 and AD-35 would be an interesting way to spend a Saturday afternoon.
Both are subjected to the same torturous playing as my last video comparing my Ovation Ultra to my Aspen AD-35. To make the video a true apples to apples comparison, and because my AD-18 doesn't have neck strap pegs, I sat for this video.
I got a couple of cool video cuts between scenes. I was editing purely for sound when serendipity raised it's head. You'll see.
Here's the AD-18 and AD-35 side by side.
A side by side of the AD-18 and AD-35 headstocks
A closer look at the bodies.
And of course, the infamous cracked bridge. It's not playable for long-term tuning, but I tuned it for the video, then detuned it and returned it to it's case for long-term storage.
arumako - 2017-05-27 7:32 AM
Then for Daren to get a Dan Savage Custom Ultra...WOW! Philadelphia at its finest!
Well, the Christmas present was a total surprise for me. Sometime before Christmas, I was talking to Dan about the Ibanez torrified guitar (Artwood Vintage Thermo Aged).
He suggested I hold off buying it until after Christmas. As is our family tradition when we're slathering over something before Christmas, I said okay. When I opened my dreadnaught guitar case, I was expecting the Ibanez. It took me a minute after I saw the AD-35 to realize what I was looking at. Once I realized what my present was, I was totally stoked!
Thanks for your thoughts about the guitars. I appreciate hearing them.
Posted 2017-05-27 7:33 PM (#535313 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2015 Posts: 287
Location: Katmandu
I say it's about time you replace the cracked bridge on that AD-18 (I bet there's some fat screws underneath there) and cut a better-fitting nut for her (the current one's way too short) with better string spacing, which is sorely needed here. Put that ol' iron to the test!
Posted 2017-05-27 8:20 PM (#535315 - in reply to #535313) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
leonardmccoy - 2017-05-27 7:33 PM
I say it's about time you replace the cracked bridge on that AD-18 (I bet there's some fat screws underneath there) and cut a better-fitting nut for her (the current one's way too short) with better string spacing, which is sorely needed here. Put that ol' iron to the test!
You're correct about the screws and the other mods suggested. My Aspen '18 is more of a family heirloom than a daily player; it's my first guitar, not my first choice guitar. My first choice guitar is the Custom Ultra.
As I wrote, I tuned the '18 for this video, then de-tuned it for long-term storage and there it will stay...until then next time I need a baseline guitar.
Posted 2017-05-29 9:21 AM (#535324 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Thanks for the photos and video Daren.
I didn't realize that the shapes of the head stocks for the AD-18 and AD-35 were as different as they are. The AD-18 is very Aspen-esque, but the AD-35 is very Martin-like.
I attribute the difference in sound between the two as the difference between any mahogany vs. rosewood. Personally, I prefer the sound of a rosewood guitar. They're a little brighter and the sound has a little more sparkle.
Posted 2017-05-29 8:24 PM (#535337 - in reply to #535324) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
You're welcome, Dan.
The '35's similarity in head stock shape may be due to Aspen's aggression in going after Martin's U.S. market share. Who can say?
It's been a while since I played the '18 (~January after I got home with the '35). At that time, I was surprised how similar it was to the '35. After watching the video, I agree with you; the '35 is a much cleaner sounding guitar.
The Custom Ultra moves that sound bar even higher (and I love the way it plays!).
Posted 2017-05-29 11:15 PM (#535338 - in reply to #533579) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: September 2012 Posts: 811
Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
DanSavage - 2017-04-08 12:02 PM
A couple of things. I didn't answer earlier, but I used this finishing system on Jay's #485 and it works fine. (Minwax polyu as the primer and Eastwood 2K as the finish coats)
I also wanted to let you know that the Eastwood 2K Aerospray High Gloss is on sale right now for $19.97 / can instead of the usual $24.99 / can.
I'd planned to buy only three cans for these four guitars, but with the drop in price I was able to buy four cans for about the same as what three would have cost.
I don't know when the sale is going to end, but given how well this stuff works for guitars you might want to jump on it.
Dan
Dan. I'm part-way through refinishing the top on my Folklore 1614, which I started a few months back but got distracted.
Posted 2017-05-30 8:25 AM (#535342 - in reply to #535311) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
DarenSavage - 2017-05-27 8:07 AM
Aspen vs. Aspen - Comparing the AD-18 & AD-35
Here's a short comparison of my Aspens; the AD-18 and AD-35. Both are about the same age, give or take a year. Since we're talking about the differences between the the AD-18 and AD-35, I thought comparing the sound of the the AD-18 and AD-35 would be an interesting way to spend a Saturday afternoon.
Thanks for the additional comparison video Daren! A great way to spend a Saturday afternoon, indeed!
Even with the cracked bridge the AD-18 has a real mellow sound doesn't it? So characteristic of mohagony back and side guitars. Is that made from solid or laminated mahogany? From the sound of the recording, it actually sounds like solid mahogany? Very neat. I have a SAC02 that is solid Englemman Spruce with solid mahogany back and sides. She's got a really interesting warmth/sparkle to her.
DanSavage - 2017-05-28 11:21 PM
I attribute the difference in sound between the two as the difference between any mahogany vs. rosewood. Personally, I prefer the sound of a rosewood guitar. They're a little brighter and the sound has a little more sparkle.
I think Dan hit the nail-on-the-head. Before the Washington Accords, Japanese builders were using a lot of Brazilian Rosewood, both in the classical and the steel string acoustic markets. Every once in a while you can find a decent pre-Washington Accords Japan vintage acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood that is auctioning for cheap. The BRwood back and sides really give the guitar a special sparkle. The nostalgia got me all interested in the Aspens again, and there is actually an Aspen Fan Club on FB!
Yes, that's the stuff. It looks like it's still on sale, so that's good. One can should be enough to spray the top. Personally, I always order a spare, just in case.
Of the Eastwood 2K, I use two coats. It'll need 4-5 coats of the Minwax polyu to build up a base for the 2K.
Let me digress and explain what I call a 'coat'.
I don't spray dusting coats. Instead, I spray a smooth wet coat using horizontal passes and overlapping each pass 50% over the previous pass and let if flash off for 10 minutes for the polyu and 15 minutes for the 2K.
Next I spray a smooth wet coat using a vertical pass and let it flash. Lastly, I spray heavy wet coat on a horizontal pass and fill in any areas that show orange peeling. Since it's got a pretty heavy coat of wet paint, to prevent runs and sags, I lay the guitar down on its back so that the top is flat.
This is what I call a 'coat' of paint.
In a warm environment, the paint will be ready to sand after about 8-10 hours. Usually I spray in the morning and let it dry while I'm at work. Then, I'll sand it in the evening. I dry sand until the polyu is built up enough to seal the wood. After that I wet sand with 400-grit.
Like I say, it'll take 4-5 'coats' of the polyu to build up a base, then 2 coats of the 2K.
I like to build up a thick coating of paint before I begin sanding. Thin coats of paint are not your friend here. It's only going to get thinner as you sand through the higher grits and at this point you really don't want to burn through the finish into the bare wood. (I've done it - ugh!)
Once I've got the last coat of 2K, I'm ready to start the finish sanding. At this point, I really don't want to burn through the finish, so I start wet sanding with 600-grit. Once the surface is uniformly flat, I'll start moving up through the grits. 800, 1000, 1500 and if I'm feeling really ambitious, 2000-grit.
Now the top is ready for polishing. I use cotton wheels in my hand-drill. I cut the initial polish using red rouge. Then, I use a cotton wheel and Maquiar's #9 Swirl Remover to bring the finish up to a high gloss.
When you're all done, you should have a finish that's about 5 mils thick, which is right about where you want to be.
Posted 2017-05-30 10:12 AM (#535345 - in reply to #535342) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
arumako - 2017-05-30 6:25 AM
I think Dan hit the nail-on-the-head. Before the Washington Accords, Japanese builders were using a lot of Brazilian Rosewood, both in the classical and the steel string acoustic markets. Every once in a while you can find a decent pre-Washington Accords Japan vintage acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood that is auctioning for cheap. The BRwood back and sides really give the guitar a special sparkle. The nostalgia got me all interested in the Aspens again, and there is actually an Aspen Fan Club on FB!
I jumped on buying the AD-35 for Daren because it's one of those MIJ guitars that used solid BR for the back and sides. Yep. I've visited the Aspen fan club on FB.
Posted 2017-05-30 10:27 PM (#535362 - in reply to #535342) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
arumako - 2017-05-30 8:25 AM
Thanks for the additional comparison video Daren! A great way to spend a Saturday afternoon, indeed!
Even with the cracked bridge the AD-18 has a real mellow sound doesn't it? So characteristic of mohagony back and side guitars. Is that made from solid or laminated mahogany? From the sound of the recording, it actually sounds like solid mahogany? Very neat. I have a SAC02 that is solid Englemman Spruce with solid mahogany back and sides. She's got a really interesting warmth/sparkle to her.
You're welcome! My pleasure.
It does. I'm not sure about whether it's solid or laminated. I'll check tomorrow and let you know.
arumako
I think Dan hit the nail-on-the-head. Before the Washington Accords, Japanese builders were using a lot of Brazilian Rosewood, both in the classical and the steel string acoustic markets. Every once in a while you can find a decent pre-Washington Accords Japan vintage acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood that is auctioning for cheap. The BRwood back and sides really give the guitar a special sparkle. The nostalgia got me all interested in the Aspens again, and there is actually an Aspen Fan Club on FB!
It's funny you should mention that. While searching for the fan club, I came across an AD-35 that just came up for sale yesterday, that includes a hard case (in Lake St. Louis, Missouri--my folks used to live there) for $125! Interestingly, this '35's neck and head stock is more similar to my '18 than to my '35 (except for the fingerboard inlays).
Given that this '35's sticker is the same as my '18 ('76-'77), and with the similarity in necks/head stocks, it's probably safe to assume that it's the same production year guitar. I believe my '35 was built in 1979.
Posted 2017-05-31 5:01 PM (#535368 - in reply to #535366) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
DanSavage - 2017-05-31 11:45 AM
WRT the Aspen serial numbers, as I recall, the first two digits are the model and the next two digits are the year it was made.
I checked the labels, and found that the AD35 is a 1977 model, and the AD18 is unknown due to my teenage Coke sticker that tore off the part of the label with the serial number.
Posted 2017-05-31 5:20 PM (#535369 - in reply to #531529) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: December 2016 Posts: 128
I just did a quick search for Aspen AD35-G and came up with this Reverb ad. What's interesting is that it's serial number lists it as 3 guitars from mine. Mine is 4494, this is 4491.
After more searching, I found that the previous Aspen I pointed out was an AD28. Sort of a half-way between the AD18 and AD35. Not sure what the G stands for.
Posted 2017-05-31 9:47 PM (#535373 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1801
Location: When??
Daren.. I'm developing a real crush on that guitar (the Ultra) since I first saw and heard it in your video. And I totally agree on the "coming home" part since I always feel that same way after playing another brand and style. Kind of like crawling back into your own bed after being on the road, no matter how nice the hotels were.
Posted 2017-05-31 10:29 PM (#535374 - in reply to #535373) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: October 2012 Posts: 1034
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Love O Fair - 2017-05-31 11:47 AM
Daren.. I'm developing a real crush on that guitar (the Ultra) since I first saw and heard it in your video. And I totally agree on the "coming home" part since I always feel that same way after playing another brand and style. Kind of like crawling back into your own bed after being on the road, no matter how nice the hotels were.
+1
...man, I know I've said it before, but that Custom Ultra is drop-dead to the floor, beautiful! Stunning!
Posted 2017-05-31 10:54 PM (#535377 - in reply to #531529) Subject: Re: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: February 2016 Posts: 1801
Location: When??
@aumako - "that Custom Ultra is drop-dead to the floor"
Yeah.. that's obviously what Daren's dog Greta was thinking right before that last picture was taken. I just now went back and reviewed the rebuild process photos and it is once again affirmed that Dan truly is a master at his his craft!
Posted 2020-01-30 3:26 PM (#551085 - in reply to #551069) Subject: RE: 198? 1528-9 Ultra...
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2315
Location: Pueblo West, CO
DarenSavage - 2020-01-27 6:24 PM
Like I said before, playing the CU is like coming home. What a sweet guitar!
I know what you mean. I've been playing the Pearl pretty much exclusively lately. I decided to pick up the Frankenvation the other day and 'rediscovered' it, too is a pretty sweet 'sounding' guitar.