1981 1113 Classic...
DanSavage
Posted 2016-04-30 10:09 PM (#524970)
Subject: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

So, Paul Moody asked me if I'd like to rebuild a 1981 1113 Classic for him that he was buying off eBay. We decided to use torrefied Adirondack top and brace stock instead of the red cedar that was originally used.

1981 was the last year of the woven cloth bowls, so if it needed a bowl bend, I could have done one. Once I got the guitar I checked the neck angle and it looked pretty good, so no bowl bend was necessary. The frets and fingerboard are also in good shape, as is the condition of the finish on the neck and headstock.

So, this job will be limited strictly to re-topping. The top is in pretty bad shape with three major splits. The pics below don't really convey the condition of the top. The wood between the splits is severaly cupped. There is no way this top could be repaired.

The first order of business is to remove the binding and purfling.

Next, the top is separated from the lining using my trusty Xacto chisel. In so doing I discovered the reason for the notches in the lining I've seen on my 1619 and 1617. These are there to allow the brace stock to be 'tucked' into the lining. When braces are tucked normally, the lining is notched and the braces are tapered so they fit between the top wood and the lining. In this case, the copious amounts of epoxy secures the braces to the lining.

The only reason braces are tucked is to reduce the number of warranty work that needs to be done. When they aren't tucked, they are more prone to being popped off the top when the guitar is bumped. The problem with tucked braces is they reduce the response of the top. The braces on the new top will not be tucked.

Here's the underside of the top sans the braces which are still stuck to the bowl.

Paul and I talked about brace patterns and whether I should retain the original double-fan brace pattern or use the original X-brace like what I used on Jay's Balladeer. We decided to use the double-fan braces. But, since the torrefied spruce is stiffer the top and braces will be slightly thinner than the original. The standard thickness was tapered from .140" to .100". For this top, I'll taper it from .120" to .094". The braces will be thinned accordingly.

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arumako
Posted 2016-05-01 7:33 AM (#524972 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Yokohama, Japan
Woo hoo! New Project! That is so interesting how the classical construction is completely different from the steel string cousins. Now we'll get to learn what a torrefied top sounds like on a nylon string-O! Fun, fun, fun! Thanks for sharing Dan!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-01 6:53 PM (#524978 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Today's task was to remove the remnants of the soundboard from under the fretboard extension and the glue from the plastic lining in preparation for fitting the top.

Whomever built this bowl didn't spare the glue. The glue joint holding the lining to the top was almost 1/32" thick on one whole side of the guitar. It was so thick that I had to take a hammer to the Xacto chisel to break it free. What couldn't be chiseld had to be ground off with the Dremel sanding drum.

Ditto for the glue joint between the underside of the top and the top of the neck block.

After pulling the top off and seeing the transverse braces that were tucked into the lining, I finally understand why the lining is notched as it is. If you compare the notches in the lining to the brace schematics on Ovation Tribute site, you can see that the notches can be used for the VT-8, VT-10, VT-11, Ovation Fan and Double Fan brace patterns.

Here's the massive amounts of glue used to glue the lining to the bowl. Talk about overkill.

The next job is to clean up the binding and purfling between the fretboard extension and the top of the neck block. Once that's done, I'll set the body aside and start jointing the top.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-01 7:02 PM
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2016-05-01 8:27 PM (#524979 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: moline,illinois
Amazing and informative work as always dan,I love to follow your projects and learn so much about what goes on inside the bowl of my favorite guitars.
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jay
Posted 2016-05-02 10:07 AM (#524987 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Posts: 1224

Location: Texas

Dan,

Sweet! This is so fun to watch, not to mention a lesson in each rebuild.

Question...quite a few classicals use the long fan approach, with less cross bracing...some provide a V brace at the bottom.

Ovation seems to be the only company that used that double fan approach with the additional cross bracing...

Does the bowl prevent a long fan appraoch, with less cross bracing...or is this what they went with to accomdate the tucked cross bracing?

Or does it matter?

((of course i made up the terms of the bracing, so I hope you catch my drift))

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-02 12:37 PM (#524988 - in reply to #524987)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

jay - 2016-05-02 8:07 AM
Dan,

Sweet! This is so fun to watch, not to mention a lesson in each rebuild.

Question...quite a few classicals use the long fan approach, with less cross bracing...some provide a V brace at the bottom.

Ovation seems to be the only company that used that double fan approach with the additional cross bracing...

Does the bowl prevent a long fan appraoch, with less cross bracing...or is this what they went with to accommodate the tucked cross bracing?

Or does it matter?

((of course i made up the terms of the bracing, so I hope you catch my drift))



Thanks, Jay. Since I'm only re-topping the guitar it should go pretty quickly. Refinishing the neck is pretty time-consuming, unlike what it takes to refinish the top.

WRT to bracing, there are as many different patterns as there are builders, or so it seems. Check out a small selection of the myriad of patterns and these are by no means exhaustive:

 

By the long fan and bottom V, I assume you mean something like the Torres or Esteso seen below?



I really couldn't say why Ovation went with the double-fan brace pattern. It might have been something he discovered and like in how it responded during testing. I don't believe there's anything in the bowl that would prevent a Torres-style fan brace pattern.

The cedar top is quite a bit softer and more easily distorted (cross-grain bending) than the spruce tops, so I believe that's why the transverse braces were tucked into the lining. They're actually pretty large in cross-section and very stiff.

IMO, the best sounding tops are thin with minimal braces to impede the resonance. Naturally, there'a balance between strong enough to resist the tension of the strings, but flexible enough so it sounds good. That's what all those designers above tried to do.

Here's an interesting article on the evolution of Classical brace patterns. (See: Bracing Styles for Classical Guitars)

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-02 1:43 PM (#524991 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
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Location: SoCal
I am, to say the least, excited.....
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-02 2:13 PM (#524993 - in reply to #524991)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA
moody, p.i. - 2016-05-02 11:43 AM

I am, to say the least, excited.....


Do you see any brace patterns above that strike your fancy? LOL!

J.K. I'll be duplicating the original double-fan.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-02 2:18 PM (#524994 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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I wouldn't know what to look for. Let's stick with what we have.....
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jay
Posted 2016-05-02 3:03 PM (#524996 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Texas
Go with carbon fiber lattice
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-02 3:28 PM (#524997 - in reply to #524996)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA
jay - 2016-05-02 1:03 PM

Go with carbon fiber lattice


Balsa/CF lattice!

The only question then would be what weight of balsa to use? 4-6lb.? 8-12Lb.? Higher? What grain, A, B or C?

Too many decisions. I'll just stick with the double-fan made from torrefied red spruce...
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-02 6:29 PM (#525006 - in reply to #524996)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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jay - 2016-05-02 1:03 PM

Go with carbon fiber lattice


Oh so helpful. How come there's never a cop around when you need one......
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-02 7:56 PM (#525007 - in reply to #525006)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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moody, p.i. - 2016-05-02 4:29 PM
Oh so helpful. How come there's never a cop around when you need one......


You just have to know where to look. Did you check the Old Simpson Place?



Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-02 7:57 PM
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jay
Posted 2016-05-02 10:11 PM (#525009 - in reply to #525006)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Texas

How come there's never a cop around when you need one...... 

Hang around the donut shop more often. I might even buy you a cup.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-02 11:46 PM (#525010 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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Sometimes I have to have donuts and coffee just to certify my p.i.-ness.......
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Geostorm98
Posted 2016-05-03 4:44 PM (#525018 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: New Hartford CT
The factory was making in excess of 500 guitars per week. What's a little excess glue? Just try and imagine...the human effort that went into mass producing these guitars...we didn't have time saving machines for the most part. It was all done by hand and some of what we may think of as non conforming ended up being exactly what a given musician wanted. I miss those days. It's not comparable to a forensic examination 40 years on. Yeah, the glue was slapped on there! Production! And if it's laying around in the shop we're going to use it for something or other.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-03 5:00 PM (#525019 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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I don't think Dan's observations were being critical. They were just observations. It was a real interesting time in the early 80's. They (you?) were pounding out guitars as fast as they could. They built great products and were never intended to be museum quality pieces. They were tools. Finely made tools.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2016-05-03 5:46 PM (#525022 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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Location: Boise, Idaho
When I got my Folklore it had a buzz that I traced to a broken brace. The hole drilled for the pickup hit a brace. I remember being shocked that this could have happened. After a bit of wood glue, I forgot about it until just now. I've played it for almost 10 years, including today, and these little "defects" caused by a handmade manufacturing process just make it more special.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-03 6:42 PM (#525023 - in reply to #525022)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA
FWIW, all guitars are hand-made, even Yamaha's. Every guitar maker takes shortcuts, even Martin and Taylor. The reason you see cloth patches over the x-brace is to hide the sloppy joint. As Paul says, my comments were observations. No offense intended.

In contrast to the copious amounts of glue used for the lining, the lay-up of the bowl is what I, as a fiberglass man, would consider a real work of art. For a hand-laid bowl inside a female mold, there is very sparing use of resin, which is the very definition of good lay-up.

When I was scraping the glue off the lining I was pleasantly surprised at how flexible and how easily distorted the bowl was.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-03 7:40 PM (#525025 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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On one of the factory tours, Rick Hall was making that very point, ie, until the mounting ring is put on, the bowl is very pliable. When the ring and then the top go on, it then becomes stiff....
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-03 8:01 PM (#525026 - in reply to #525025)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA

I got a bare hand-laid bowl in the 1619 deal, so I'm able to compare the two. The lining on yours adds a little stiffness, so it's not as flexible as the bare bowl. But, it's still more flexible than either Jay's which has the original molded flanged lining, or my 1617, which has the same lining as this 1113.

Next time you come over, I'll let you check out the bare bowl.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-03 8:10 PM
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jay
Posted 2016-05-03 9:48 PM (#525027 - in reply to #525018)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Posts: 1224

Location: Texas

George makes a great point

And if it's laying around in the shop we're going to use it for something or other.

Take for example the 1651-7.

Additionally my 67 has a 2 piece neck...why...they needed a neck and probably didn't have the stock on hand. I can count on one hand, the # of 2 piece necks I have seen from the early days. 

"All guitars are hand made"

Well, what about necks and bridges?  There is something cool about having a guitar that craftsmen made happen (Including you Dan.). Maybe, back then, all guitar companies made guitars the same way...but it certainly doesnt diminish the cool factor.

 

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Cavalier
Posted 2016-05-07 3:42 PM (#525060 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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Fun stuff Dan. Out of curiosity since the spruce top will make it closer to a 1116 Concert Classic did that one use the double fan too? The brace patterns will inspire hours of reflection alone. At a quick glance I like the 1976 Rodrigeuz Jr. and the Cordoba. Some fall in to the "what were they thinking " catagory but it'd be fun to hear them all.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-07 6:53 PM (#525062 - in reply to #525060)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA
Hi Chris,

According to the Ovation Guitars archive, the 1116 used a VT-10 brace pattern.

Yes, there are almost as many brace patterns as there are builders of guitars.

EDIT: WRT the Rodriguez Jr. brace pattern, he was following the Ramirez pattern, which introduced 'the treble bar,' designed to soften the string bass response and bring out the treble. Interestingly, the Ramirez guitars used scale lengths as long as 668mm, which translated equals 26.299". The 1113 has a scale length of 26.375"

Even so, I'm modifying the double-fan brace pattern slightly to account for the torrefied wood I'm using.

I've done a little research and it seems that torrefied wood has 10% higher modulus of elasticity. IOW, it's 10% springier than non-torrefied wood. So, to make sure the top and braces are not overly stiff, I'm going to thin them 10%. Also, not tucking the braces will help the top be more resonant.

Instead of a taper from .140 to .100 on the top, I'm going to taper it from ~.120 to ~.094. I'm also going to shorten the thickness of the transverse braces from 1/2" to 7/16". I cut the stock today. I also jointed the top wood. I'll make an appointment this week with my sanding guy to thickness sand the top. Once the top is sanded, I'll start kitting the braces. After I have all the braces kitted, I'll trace and cut the top and soundhole, mark the brace locations and get to a-gluin'.

Since most of the work is stuff I've already covered I probably won't be taking too many pics of this build, except for stuff I haven't covered before.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-07 7:06 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-14 6:05 PM (#525263 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA

Progress continues.

I got the top thickness sanded and the basic outline cut. Normal thickness for Ovation tops is tapered from .140" to .100". I ended up with a .120" to .094" taper.

Bridge index pin holes are drilled.

Sound hole is cut.

New rosette is fitted.

I laid out the locations of the braces on the underside of the top.

I'm not sure if the fan braces are supposed to be asymmetrical or not, but I followed the locations of the original top.



The braces have been kitted. The transverse braces are shorter than the original because the originals were tucked into the lining. I'm not a fan of tucking braces, so these will not be tucked, either.



All of the braces are about 10% thinner than the original braces. The original transverse braces were 1/2" x 3/16". The new transverse braces are 7/16" x 3/16", or about 10% shorter. I also thinned the fan braces by about the same amount. The originals were 1/4" x 1/8". The new ones are 7/32" x 1/8"



Next job is to start gluing down the braces.

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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-05-16 4:34 PM (#525295 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Very impressive Dan.

I'm wondering if grain direction is a factor with the braces. Would quarter sawn be better, and if so should the grain be vertical or horizontal?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-16 8:19 PM (#525300 - in reply to #525295)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA

BanjoJ - 2016-05-16 2:34 PM

Very impressive Dan.

I'm wondering if grain direction is a factor with the braces. Would quarter sawn be better, and if so should the grain be vertical or horizontal?


Howdy Paul!

Thanks!

Actually, these are quarter-sawn wood. The previous photo is a bit of an optical illusion. The end of the brace you're seeing is beveled and rounded, so it makes the grain seem more flat-sawn than it really is. Here's a few photos that show the actual angle of the grain for each transverse brace.

The runout of the wood isn't anything to write home about, and I certainly wouldn't use this wood on an airplane (more about that shortly) but it's acceptable for guitars. I've read that anything less than 30-degrees will work for either top wood or brace stock.

Brace #1

Brace #2

Brace #3

Brace #4

In contrast, here's the grain of the original braces. A couple approach what would be considered flat-sawn, but given the hectic production schedule and limited resources, it works. Also notice that only one piece is a true 3/16" thick. The others are about 7/32".

WRT grain orientation, most luthiers like to have the grain on the braces stock orientated in a vertical plane. In contrast, when building for aviation, the grain is usually orientated in the horizontal plane.

Some have done tests and the wood is pretty much equally strong in either direction. It all gets down to intentions. The wood in airplanes, for example, in stringers, is usually not carved. But, guitar braces cane be both tapered and scalloped.

If the grain for guitar braces were oriented in the horizontal plane, it would tend to split along the grain when scalloped with a chisel. When the grain is oriented in the vertical plane it can be scalloped and tapered without spliting.

When I was building my model airplanes, I always oriented the grain so that the grain was parallel to whatever surface it was closest to.

When I was re-topping Jay's guitar, I bought some wood to use for the brace stock from Aircraft Spruce because I knew the high standards required for wood used in aviation. I was surprised to find the grain oriented 90-degrees to the wood used in the braces. So, I ended up buying brace stock blanks from Stewmac and cut my own braces so the grain orientation matched that of the original braces.

WRT to grain run-out, the Sitka spruce used for aviation has to have a very limited amount of runout because of the stresses placed upon the pieces when flying. If a guitar brace splits, then the guitar may not sound so good. If an airplane stringer or spar splits because of run-out, someone may die. `Nuff said.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-16 8:23 PM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-17 12:04 AM (#525310 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
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Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Gotta admit, this is exciting.....
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-05-17 12:38 AM (#525311 - in reply to #525310)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Posts: 778

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Wow! Thanks Dan.

When I repaired the braces in my Folklore I made some test ones out of quarter-sawn. One with the grain running vertical and another horizontal and tested them for stiffness. The vertical were stiffer. But I was only using my fingers for the test, not any fancy test rig.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-17 2:28 PM (#525334 - in reply to #525310)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA

moody, p.i. - 2016-05-16 10:04 PM

Gotta admit, this is exciting.....


Yep. Getting closer. I'm really looking forward to hearing how it sounds.

Transverse braces glued and clamped.



Fan braces glued and clamped.



I'll pull the top out of the gobar deck tomorrow, and finish making the bridge-clamping cawl and start prepping the top for gluing to the bowl.

That mainly consists of masking for the bridge and spraying the base coat of polyurethane and sanding it smooth. If all goes well I should have the top glued to the bowl by this weekend.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-17 2:58 PM (#525335 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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Cool. What do all the clamps attach to above the guitar? Do you have a pic of that?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-17 5:28 PM (#525342 - in reply to #525335)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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moody, p.i. - 2016-05-17 12:58 PM

Cool. What do all the clamps attach to above the guitar? Do you have a pic of that?


Sure thing. It's called a gobar deck. I bought this one from Blues Creek Guitars for $95. Stewmac sells them for $482. (!)

The round fiberglass rods with rubber feet came with the gobar deck, but Blues Creek sells them separately. Each rod exerts about 7 lbs. of force, depending on how much they bend. The bars just push against the underside of the upper plate.

I made my own version of this to joint the soundboards. Here's the soundboard for my 1617 being glued together. The wooden wedges on the right are clamped to squeeze the two pieces together and the gobars are pushing down on the joint to keep the two pieces even with each other while the glue dries.

Before applying the glue, I clamped the two pieces in the deck, then applied the tape. I remove the top from the deck and the tape acts like a hinge so I can fold the two pieces back and apply the glue to the edges. Then, I flatten the top and put it into the deck.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-17 5:29 PM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-17 6:01 PM (#525345 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


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Location: SoCal
All that coolness right in front of the washing machine.....
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-17 6:03 PM (#525346 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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The washing machine is on SWMBO's side of the garage. All the coolness is on my side.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-18 10:26 PM (#525367 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Lake Forest, CA

Fan braces are done. Now it's time to build the bridge-claming cawl.

Lower set from 1/2" medium balsa.

Upper set from 1/2" medium balsa.

Topped with 1/4" marine (birch) ply.



And, here's what it looks like all assembled.



Top is wetted out with naptha to show the grain. The top will have a skunk-stripe all its own.



Bridge masking is in place.



Fretboard masking is in place. All ready to spray the base coats onto the top.




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arumako
Posted 2016-05-19 9:42 AM (#525376 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Location: Yokohama, Japan
Awesome Dan! I'm learning so much again from your amazing work and documentation. Thank you! The discussion about the wood grain in the braces is so interesting. Also, I never would have imagined making a bridge caul out of balsa! How much clamping pressure can balsa take? Very cool!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-19 11:34 AM (#525378 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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Hi Ken,

Thanks.

Generally speaking balsa is pretty strong, depending on the weight. Balsa is classified according to 1-cubic-foot blocks.

Ultra-Light: 4-5 lb.
Light: 5-6 lb.
Medium: 7-9 lb.
Hard: 14+ lb.

The wood I used above would be considered medium. I got several scraps of it when I ordered contest balsa. (Light) The stack of contest balsa was plastic-wrapped to the 1/2" plank to keep the lighter wood from getting crushed during shipping.

While it doesn't have the compressive strength of spruce, it's not going to be crushed by the pressures needed to clamp a bridge. You wouldn't want to clamp wood joints too tightly, anyway as you'll squeeze out all the glue. That would result in a starved joint which would be weak and prone to failure.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-05-19 11:35 AM
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arumako
Posted 2016-05-20 1:05 PM (#525401 - in reply to #525378)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



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DanSavage - 2016-05-19 1:34 AM

Hi Ken,

Thanks.

Generally speaking balsa is pretty strong, depending on the weight. Balsa is classified according to 1-cubic-foot blocks.

Ultra-Light: 4-5 lb.
Light: 5-6 lb.
Medium: 7-9 lb.
Hard: 14+ lb.

The wood I used above would be considered medium. I got several scraps of it when I ordered contest balsa. (Light) The stack of contest balsa was plastic-wrapped to the 1/2" plank to keep the lighter wood from getting crushed during shipping.

While it doesn't have the compressive strength of spruce, it's not going to be crushed by the pressures needed to clamp a bridge. You wouldn't want to clamp wood joints too tightly, anyway as you'll squeeze out all the glue. That would result in a starved joint which would be weak and prone to failure.

Thanks for replying Dan. I never realized balsa was able to withstand that kind of pressure. I remember my Dad used to work with balsa in his wood shop, and he would give me scraps that I used to carve and cut into wooden boats. Balsa always seemed soft and buoyant, but never strong.

I'll need to do a bit more research on balsa as I'm planning on using thin balsa strips to sandwich my CFRP braces for my CC54i iDea Project! Very cool information! Thanks again!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-20 2:48 PM (#525402 - in reply to #525401)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Yep, balsa is bouyant. Kon Tiki was made from balsa logs.

I use balsa for the cawls because it's softer than the underlying wood and won't leave marks or dents. Also because, like you say, it's easier to cut and carve thick planks.
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Geostorm98
Posted 2016-05-20 4:57 PM (#525407 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2011
Posts: 402

Location: New Hartford CT
Dan, your work is incredible. What a wonderful contributor to the OFC you are. Keep it up.
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jay
Posted 2016-05-20 10:14 PM (#525415 - in reply to #525407)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1224

Location: Texas

Dan, your work is incredible. What a wonderful contributor to the OFC you are. Keep it up.

+1 

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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-21 2:39 PM (#525424 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, guys.

I sprayed the first coat of sealer on this morning and was surprised by the amount of figuring of the wood. It's definitely going to have a vintage Ovation look to it.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-21 6:36 PM (#525426 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Cool....
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-21 7:12 PM (#525428 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
A photo?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-21 7:53 PM (#525429 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

It's difficult to capture the figuring, but these pics show it as well as can be expected.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-21 8:18 PM (#525430 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Thanks. That's a good looking piece of wood. I'm getting very excited....

Edited by moody, p.i. 2016-05-21 8:19 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-21 8:30 PM (#525431 - in reply to #525430)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
This guitar will be a one-of-a-kind guitar.

It'll be the only Ovation classical in the world with torrefied Adi top and braces.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-21 9:30 PM (#525433 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
I suspect that the sound will "pop". But we'll find out....
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-21 11:33 PM (#525436 - in reply to #525430)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Yep. As they say the proof of the pudding is in the tasting...
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ksdaddy
Posted 2016-05-22 9:49 PM (#525449 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
April 2003
Posts: 603

Location: Caribou, ME
I'm not going to show these pics to the guy who sold me that guitar. He'll never sell me any more cheapies!
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Cavalier
Posted 2016-05-28 12:53 PM (#525560 - in reply to #525311)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2013
Posts: 341

Location: undisclosed
BanjoJ - 2016-05-16 10:38 PM

Wow! Thanks Dan.

When I repaired the braces in my Folklore I made some test ones out of quarter-sawn. One with the grain running vertical and another horizontal and tested them for stiffness. The vertical were stiffer. But I was only using my fingers for the test, not any fancy test rig.


I agree with this, Gougeon wood testing shows vertical grain to be stiffer in stringers for boats etc.... and I found the same in multihull and instrument construction
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2016-05-28 1:40 PM (#525561 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
As always, top notch work Dan.
I'm surprised Paul's not camping out on your couch.
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-05-29 6:27 PM (#525569 - in reply to #525561)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 778

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Jonmark Stone - 2016-05-29 6:40 AM

I'm surprised Paul's not camping out on your couch.


If it wasn't for that pesky Pacific Ocean I probably would be.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-05-30 1:56 AM (#525572 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Always something.

Dan's a craftsman. You don't rush things.....
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-05-30 9:57 AM (#525574 - in reply to #525572)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Don't worry, Paul. I'm not rushing anything. I did get the sealer coat on the top and I'm ready to glue it to the bowl.

I had planned to do that job Friday night and route the channels for the binding and purfling on Saturday, but when I checked my supply of Hysol I found I didn't have enough to comfortably do the job. The last thing I'd want would be to run out of glue half way through applying the bead around the body. (yikes!)

So, I ordered some and it should be here tomorrow. I'll get the top glued down this week and with any luck get the channels routed and the binding/purfling glue down before next weekend so I can start the finish coats.

Pics to follow...
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-01 8:38 PM (#525659 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Well, the glue came in yesterday and I got the top and fretboard extensions glued to the bowl. When tapped, it's got a big ol' hollow voice.



I ground down the excess wood and I'm ready to route the binding/purfling channel. My old bits are probably getting a little dull, so to prevent any tearout I'm going to go buy some new ones.

BTW, Paul. Anytime you want to cruise by to check out the progress, strum a few chords or just shoot the breeze, you're more than welcome to come over. Just give me a call to let me know you're on your way. You're always welcome here.

Dan

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Love O Fair
Posted 2016-06-01 9:11 PM (#525662 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1108

Location: What week?
Dan, you amaze me.. to no end.. but I'm certainly not alone in that. As well, sometimes the plethora of nifty stuff you have laying around in the background is an interesting topic unto itself. Be glad that I don't live closer to you since I would probably always be wanting to come around to watch this all take place in real time. Always a treat to visit your posts.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-01 9:24 PM (#525664 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Can't do it before next week Dan, but I'll give a call and come by for a visit next week. Thanks for the offer.
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clrules
Posted 2016-06-04 6:20 PM (#525737 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
September 2005
Posts: 93

Location: Birmingham, AL
You're getting pretty good at this!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-04 6:46 PM (#525738 - in reply to #525737)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
clrules - 2016-06-04 4:20 PM

You're getting pretty good at this!


Thanks. Practice makes perfect. None of them have been perfect yet, but I'm still trying.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-04 6:50 PM (#525739 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

They've been keeping me pretty busy at work, so I didn't have as much time to work on the guitar as I would have liked. We were cut some slack this weekend, so I decided to make hay while the sun was shining today.

I routed the binding and purfling channel.



Carved out the ends next to the neck.

And, glued in the binding and purfling. I'll let them dry for a day, then peel the tape off tomorrow to see how they look.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-05 12:34 AM (#525741 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Just got in from an overnight trip. Oh boy...
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-05 8:39 AM (#525745 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 846

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Wow Dan! She is looking really good! Did you use your Dremel to route the binding/purfling channels? Your work is immaculate as usual! Looking forward to following your progress to completion! Thanks for sharing!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-05 11:40 AM (#525749 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Hi Ken,

Yes, I used the Dremel and 1/4" Dremel router bit and this Binding Router Guide I bought from Stewmac.

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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-06-05 2:57 PM (#525758 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10382

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Wow... There is a Dremel tool for everything.
Very nice.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-05 3:05 PM (#525760 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Art.

Oh yeah. I'd be lost without my Dremel.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-05 3:07 PM (#525761 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

I pulled the tape off and scraped down the binding and purfling.

I need to touch up some chipped edges of the bowl today. Then tomorrow, once that's dry I'll mask off the top and start applying the final finish.

Won't be long now, Paul.

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photodork
Posted 2016-06-09 1:44 AM (#525844 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
March 2014
Posts: 51

Location: Halifax, nova scotia
what a fantastic thread, and that new top looks wonderful! thanks for sharing all the know-how and photos!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-11 9:30 PM (#525886 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

The finish on the top is sprayed, sanded and polished.

There are only two jobs left: gluing the bridge and rosette.

Do you have any plans for next weekend, Paul?





Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-11 9:32 PM
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Lonnie
Posted 2016-06-11 9:46 PM (#525887 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
November 2013
Posts: 163

Location: Phoenix, AZ
Looks great Dan! You are extremely patient.
What type of finish do you use on the top? Is is in a spray can, or do you use a gun?
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-11 9:46 PM (#525888 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Dan, will I be coming over and picking up the guitar? Wow!

Edited by moody, p.i. 2016-06-11 9:55 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-12 7:19 AM (#525891 - in reply to #525888)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Lonnie. I used Minwax oil-based Polyurethane rattle can. You can see them in the background of the last pic.

Paul,
I should have the guitar done by then, so if you'd like to cruise by to pick it up, that would be fine.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-12 7:22 AM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-12 5:05 PM (#525896 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Now I'm very excited!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-12 8:24 PM (#525901 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Paul,
I know you prefer satin finish on the back of the neck. Would you like me to satinize the back of the neck before I give it back to you?

Bridge masking is cut away, and tape glue residue cleaned with naptha.



Masking applied in preparation for gluing the bridge.



Bridge glued and clamped. I'll pull the clamps tomorrow afternoon, then glue down the rosette.

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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-13 3:27 AM (#525909 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
No, my first preference is always gloss so the neck is good to go.

Edited by moody, p.i. 2016-06-13 3:31 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-13 9:28 AM (#525915 - in reply to #525909)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Got it!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-13 8:34 PM (#525926 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Bridge is glued down.



As is the rosette. I'll let all this cure until tomorrow, then string it up and check the setup, which may need adjusting.

Paul,
Do you have a preference as to set-up? (high, low, etc.?)

 



Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-13 8:36 PM
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Love O Fair
Posted 2016-06-13 10:46 PM (#525928 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
February 2016
Posts: 1108

Location: What week?
I swear, Dan, if you were to rent a meeting room for a Saturday at any given hotel in SoCal, and do nothing but just stand there with a slide show and answer luthier questions, you'd sell out. Let us know when tickets are available.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-13 11:20 PM (#525929 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Dan, I'm good with a medium height. The strings I left with you are hard tension which should work well with that. I like a balance between the action and dynamics of the guitar. Higher action means more volume and balls. Lower action is easier to play. Let's go with the middle ground.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-13 11:20 PM (#525930 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
And that last picture is just beautiful! I like the stripe......

Edited by moody, p.i. 2016-06-13 11:22 PM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-14 1:07 PM (#525942 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Paul,

Sounds good. I'll be stringing it up later tonight. I'm looking forward to hearing how it sounds. :D

Dan
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-14 1:55 PM (#525943 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Me too!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-14 10:06 PM (#525960 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

All done. It sure is pretty. I need to fine-tune the setup.

IMO, the strings that are on it help make it bass-strong and treble-weak, which is unbalanced. I'll look at the string diameters and put some different strings with a little larger diameter treble.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-14 10:08 PM
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2016-06-14 10:31 PM (#525962 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10382

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Nice!
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jay
Posted 2016-06-14 10:56 PM (#525963 - in reply to #525960)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 1224

Location: Texas

Daniel!!!

That top is so rich! Very nice job! It is just an awesome looking O. Once again you have killed it. You should be extremely proud. Paul is probably salivating (more than usual). 

For brighter trebles...you might try Savarez New Crystal Corum's... their trebles have a pretty good rep at being bright.



Edited by jay 2016-06-14 10:57 PM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-14 11:00 PM (#525965 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
I'll probably buy a set. In the meantime Dan, leave it the way it is. I like a bass response.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-15 11:10 AM (#525972 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Art.

Jay,
Thanks! It's not without its flaws, but overall I'm happy with how it turned out.

Paul,
Will do. See you soon. :D
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Damon67
Posted 2016-06-15 11:26 AM (#525973 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6988

Location: Jet City
nice
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marenostrum
Posted 2016-06-15 12:26 PM (#525978 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 1002

Location: Tuscany, Italy
Wow Dan.... another great job completed !
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2016-06-15 1:20 PM (#525979 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12655

Location: Boise, Idaho
Beautiful job again! It would be interesting to compare it with a 1113 with a cedar top.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-15 3:51 PM (#525985 - in reply to #525979)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Damon and Riccardo.

Mark,
Yes, it would be interesting to compare the two especially since this one has the same brace pattern.
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-06-15 8:03 PM (#525993 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 778

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
Stunning! Great work Dan. What's next?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-15 8:59 PM (#525994 - in reply to #525993)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Paul.

Practice on the instruments I've already got, such as my guitars, banjo and mandolin.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-15 9:00 PM
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BanjoJ
Posted 2016-06-15 10:20 PM (#525998 - in reply to #525994)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
September 2012
Posts: 778

Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia
DanSavage - 2016-06-16 1:59 PM
Practice on the instruments I've already got, such as my guitars, banjo and mandolin.


Ah! Practice. Yes, I've heard of that. I might try it out soon.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-15 10:38 PM (#525999 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
So Dan, you haven't made any comments on the sound.....
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-16 3:18 AM (#526004 - in reply to #525999)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 846

Location: Yokohama, Japan
moody, p.i. - 2016-06-15 12:38 PM

So Dan, you haven't made any comments on the sound.....

+1

Wow Dan! You've really outdone yourself (again)! She is absolutely stunning...and the finish worked out really really beautifully. The grain is to die for! You really are a craftsman! So...then...how about it? Nylon strings, torrefied top...what's your take on the sound?
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-16 10:55 AM (#526010 - in reply to #526004)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Ken.

The bass strings sound really good. The treble sounds good too, but is a little thin. I was playing it again last night and by adjusting my style (attack) I can compensate for it. Brighter treble strings would help. Maybe a combination of two styles of strings --mellow bass and bright treble.

It could be that the deep bowl is really accentuating the bass response and weakening the treble. My 1624, which is a shallow bowl sounds more balanced. The bass response is pretty equal to the treble. At first I thought it might be that the 1624 strings were thicker, but I used digital calipers and the strings are the same diameter on both guitars.

All in all, I'm really pleased with how it turned out. It's got a few flaws, but the good far outweighs the bad.

BTW, Paul, of all days, I left my cell phone at home today. So, let me know here which day you'll be stopping by to pick it up.

Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-16 11:02 AM
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-16 11:04 AM (#526012 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
I should add that I'm even more convinced of the value of using torrefied wood for guitars. I will never use anything but that for the guitars I rebuild.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-16 11:45 AM (#526013 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
I might be able to swing by tonight. Gotta spend the afternoon in San Berdoo and then come back in the early evening. I'll touch base with you after about 6 pm.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-16 2:52 PM (#526026 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Sounds good.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-16 5:28 PM (#526032 - in reply to #525998)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
BanjoJ - 2016-06-15 8:20 PM

Ah! Practice. Yes, I've heard of that. I might try it out soon.


I do have a couple of other beat-up guitars that need work. (1121 & 1517 SSB)

But, I'm going to take some off and just play for a while.
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2wheeldrummer
Posted 2016-06-16 6:23 PM (#526036 - in reply to #526012)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
February 2014
Posts: 482

Location: moline,illinois
DanSavage - 2016-06-16 11:04 AM

I should add that I'm even more convinced of the value of using torrefied wood for guitars. I will never use anything but that for the guitars I rebuild.


Another gorgeous guitar Dan,love the top!!!
Have you seen where Ibanez has a new line of "thermo-aged" guitars coming out,basically there name for torrefaction,maybe you should PM BillX and offer to help Ovation design a new line of vintage "torrefied" guitars they can call them the "Savage"
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-16 6:53 PM (#526037 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: RE: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

I've got an Ibanez. (A300E VV Ambience) It's a laminated guitar, so it doesn't sound all that great acoustic, but when plugged in, it sounds fantastic and it's got the easiest neck I've ever played --even easier than Ovation's.

I seem to recall reading something about Ibanez releasing a torrefied-top guitar. I found a YouTube video they put out that highlights the features of this series of guitars. (Artwood)

The video shows that they are using torrefied wood for the top and braces and one model (AV10) has torrefied solid mahogany sides and back. The back uses torrefied braces. I'm not real keen on the 'any finish you want as long as it's brown sunburst' of this guitar, but if it sounds good enough I'm sure I could overlook it. (LOL!) Interestingly, my Ibanez also has a vintage violin finish, like the AVD10.

It'll be interesting to see how much they're going to charge for these guitars.

Yes, I'm sure that Ovation will probably release a torrefied top guitar eventually. Most of the players in the guitar game are doing so and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Ovation jumps in, too.

Here's Ibanez' video.



Edited by DanSavage 2016-06-16 6:55 PM
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-17 12:32 PM (#526058 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Picked up the guitar last night (Dan lives about 4 miles away). First impression is that it's beautiful. Dan said there were some minor flaws. I haven't found them. The new top looks like an old top 40-50 years old (because it's torrified which darkens it) and it's stunning. Dan did nothing to the neck, but the neck was in almost pristine shape as we got it. In all, it's a brand new 1981 1113 except the top is very old.

How does it sound? It's a huge loud sound. Hit the bass E string and it will sustain a good 10 seconds before going quiet. This guitar has balls! Big and loud. It's what I've been looking for since I sold my 1763 because the high action couldn't be corrected.

We didn't put a pickup in it (thought about an OP Pro) because I can count on one hand the number of times I've wanted to plug in a nylon string over the last 15 years. It's light and responsive!

Oh, and lasts thought. When Dan got the wood, he wasn't happy because the guitar was going to have a skunk stripe from the bridge to the end. I love that stripe. It identifies that guitar as MY guitar and it looks beautiful.

Thank You Dan, very very much!
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2016-06-17 1:22 PM (#526059 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12655

Location: Boise, Idaho
The middle panel on my K1111RI is darker than the outer panels. I call it a racing stripe. I think the stripes look cool, too.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-17 3:31 PM (#526062 - in reply to #526058)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Paul,

First, it was my pleasure to rebuild this guitar for you. I'm very pleased you're happy with it and I hope it gives you many years of enjoyment.

Welcome to the small, but growing club of torrefied wood guitar owners. :D

Dan
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arumako
Posted 2016-06-17 11:23 PM (#526070 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
October 2012
Posts: 846

Location: Yokohama, Japan
Congratulations moody, p.i.! Thanks for the awesome review! Sure would love to hear what she sounds like! Bows to the Luthier Meister, Dan! You know the Mothership is all busy with the 40th and 50th anniversary, they might be callin' ya for some west coast back up! ...and I've gotta try a torrefied top, man-O-man, how can they be so inexpensive in the State! Goin' to school at the BFLG...
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-19 4:55 PM (#526107 - in reply to #526070)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Thanks, Ken. Ha ha! Well, I won't be holding my breath waiting for that phone call.

It wasn't so long ago that torrefied wood was pure unobtainium, even here in the states. I wanted to try it for a long time, but none of the wood suppliers had any. In fact, I wanted to use it on my 1619, but I couldn't buy it anywhere, so I 'settled' for the bear claw Sitka spruce from Stewmac.

The first one who I knew of that had some for sale was Blues Creek Guitars. All they had was Adirondack spruce and I ordered a set on the spot, for a cool $275.

Right after that was when I saw that Stewmac was selling torrefied Sitka spruce for $57 per set. That was at the time when I was rebuilding Jay's 1967 Balladeer, so we took the plunge to buy it and use it on his guitar.

Now, a lot of suppliers are selling it in almost all varieties of spruce, including regular and bear claw Sitka, Adirondack, Englemann, Carpathian and Lutz spruces. None of these are as cheap as Stewmac's torrefied Sitka spruce, but they are available, which is IMO wonderful.
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seesquare
Posted 2016-06-19 5:18 PM (#526108 - in reply to #526107)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3158

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
OK, next challenge, then- when will you construct your Easy-Bake Oven, & develop a torrefication protocol?!
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-19 6:26 PM (#526111 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
That sounds funny, but before torrefied tone wood became available from the luthier suppliers I actually was in the market for an autoclave large enough to fit top wood halves. Unfortunately, the cost of such a beastie was way out of my reach.

I made a visit to a local 3D printing company for a tour and spied an autoclave sitting in a corner of their shop that was large enough to do the job, and talked to them a little bit about it's capabilities (temperature, pressure) but when I was ready to approach them about putting wood in it I found they had moved their office about 90 miles away.

Now, I can buy quality wood that's cheap enough to make the idea of buying my own autoclave a moot point.
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seesquare
Posted 2016-06-19 7:37 PM (#526121 - in reply to #526111)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3158

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Agreed. I just enjoy being esoteric. You are an inspiration to us all, Dan.
Carry On.
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DanSavage
Posted 2016-06-20 10:15 AM (#526126 - in reply to #526121)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...



Joined:
June 2012
Posts: 1949

Location: Lake Forest, CA
Yeah, I know you were just kidding around. Thanks.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-20 12:40 PM (#526130 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
I've got a 1914 Martin OO18. The 1113 is much bigger in sound and tone. This surprises me tremendously.
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2016-06-20 4:14 PM (#526135 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Beautiful job Dan.

Congratts, PM. Time to start wood-sheddin' on "Classical Gas".
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-20 9:56 PM (#526159 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
Actually, The Claw.
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2016-06-20 10:12 PM (#526160 - in reply to #526159)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Did a show with Thom Bresh last fall. He did "The Claw" on my guitar and she didn't remember it the next day.So disappointed.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-20 11:35 PM (#526166 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
My version of The Claw would be a bit simpler than Bresh's.

Sorry your guitar's memory is going south. A tune like that in Bresh's hands should have been playable for at least a couple of days after.

Between Knowles and Dobbins tabs, I've got the whole song. Playing it is a different animal.....

Edited by moody, p.i. 2016-06-20 11:37 PM
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Jonmark Stone
Posted 2016-06-22 12:50 PM (#526217 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1397

Location: Indy
Sorry for the slight detour Dan.

Don't know whether you've seen this, PM. Apart from being an awesome Certified Guitar Player, Thom is also a talented and creative videographer Fortunately for us, he captured many of our heroes in rare casual moments.

https://youtu.be/Ehh2f2sQbQI?list=PL7DA2675245EA05FE
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2016-06-22 1:12 PM (#526220 - in reply to #524970)
Subject: Re: 1981 1113 Classic...


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15290

Location: SoCal
I've watched it a number of times Jm. The speed he plays at about 50 seconds is about as fast as I am currently. I'll keep working at it.....
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