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| Does anyone else think it's interesting how much the back in the teaser picture on the Ovation Facebook page... https://www.facebook.com/OvationGuitars/photos/pb.222164092016.-2207520000.1451119650./10153390585112017/?type=3&theater
...looks like the Spax-made Crafter back? http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAFTER-WB-700CE-VTG-Electric-Acoustic-Guitar-Round-Back-w-gig-bag-/121846194621?hash=item1c5e9961bd:g:rFUAAOSwk1JWeP93
I have no objections to Ovation moving in the direction of using Cross Woven Spherical Alder bowls, or to them partnering with Spax. I actually own two of the Spax-made Hohner Eclipse 12-strings, and after my tech did a set-up, they are two of the easiest playing 12-strings I have ever owned. It's even funny to have people who *hate* bowlbacks reluctantly admit that the guitars are better than the 12-strings they personally champion... even though they also state that they would never buy one due to the shape. There's nothing like making choices on sound equipment based on looks. *laugh* I've kept an eye on Spax since buying my Hohners, watching them introduce different back finishes, as well as doing different types of soundboard designs (off-center soundholes like the Ovation epaulets, center soundholes, and even archtops) on bowlbacks. They also have done quite a few different designs on top of the backs, from the oak leaf on their original Axiom line, to the crescent moon on the Hohners, and the painted woodgrain covering not just certain of the Spax models, but also the current Peal and Crafter lines. (Spax states on their website somewhere that the obvious woodgrain is painted, but you can still see the squares of the woven strips when there is no paint covering the arespas with the intersections.) Since Spax's instruments are unique in having that Cross Woven Spherical Alder back under all those painted designs, it's pretty easy to know that they were the ones making these models in Korea for other brands. Which is why it's so interesting to me to see such a bowl combined with an Ovation neck. I think this is a good thing, using such a lightweight material in the composite bowl, getting back to the lighter and more responsive bowls from early in Ovation history. Painting over it, maybe not so much. ---- I've seen comments on the photo, but nothing which brought together the Spax angle, so I thought it was worth starting that discussion. I'm excited by the possibilities, and open to seeing what develops. How about you? |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Interesting observation, TJ.
Looking more closely at the Ovation bowl, I see that it is indeed a woven Spax-like bowl.
Here's what Spax says on their site about the woven Alder bowls. 
What is Cross Woven Body? Currently, most of the manufacturers use Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic (FRP ) to make the round back body. The development team wanted to create new sounds, which are superior over the sounds produced from FRP. SP Music started development of the new material for the round back body. In June 2004, SP Music succeeded in developing that new material. The material is called “CROSS WEAVED TEXTILE PLYWOOD”, this process involves cross lamination of small wood strips perpendicular to each other using environmentally friendly, odor-free, and non-poisonous resin. The new patent that we succeeded in development is Guitar Body which is textile plywood which is woven strips of wood on a cross pattern over a spherical surface body. Wooden sheet
The spherical body is composed of thin-split, wooden strips which are cross-woven into a large wooden sheet. Vibration of the body differs depending on the number of wood strips and the kinds of wood that are woven in. Each wood originally has a different oscillation property and the hardness of each wood also affects the vibration. At the same time, a wooden sheet woven out of two or more kinds of wood makes it possible to create a unique vibration unlike anything that has been done before. Axiom & Woodware guitars are able to create various tone colors by varying the types of wood strips. CWA
Wooden sheets are glued to each other with a thermoset adhesive material, formed into a spherical shape, and laminated for strength. The photo shows the body which is formed into a spherical shape after laminating three layers of doubled woven alder sheets. We call this body CWA (Cross-Woven-Alder body). |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "Currently, most of the manufacturers use Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic (FRP) to make the round back body."
Uh... How many manufacturers are we talking about? 
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| Old Man Arthur - 2015-12-28 10:08 AM "Currently, most of the manufacturers use Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic (FRP ) to make the round back body." Uh... How many manufacturers are we talking about?
Besides the various companies which make obvious Ovation copies for brands like Shenandoah, there are non-Ovation guitar lines by Johnson and Joshua, and models by larger companies with rounded backs like the Fender Telecoustic, the Gibson J25, and even that Glen Campbell model copy by Kawai.
There are actually many such guitar lines currently being made and sold, although none are as high profile or as closely identified with such back construction in the mind of the public as Ovation.I've been watching the proliferation for quite a few years. And, as claimed, yes, the majority of the backs are FRP. ---- As mentioned earlier, I already own and am quite happy with two instruments with the CWSA (Cross Woven Spherical Alder) backs, and I'm not against experimentation with alternate materials and construction methods. I also own Rainsong instruments, which are incredibly light. Given that Ovation as a company has traditionally been very forward thinking, it's nice to see them continue to experiment. I'm sure I'm not the only Ovation fan who is looking forward to seeing where this goes. (If there *were* Ovation fans who were against further experimentation, and who wanted the company's methods frozen like an insect in amber, that would be ironic, no?) |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Explorer - 2015-12-28 11:09 AM
...frozen like an insect in amber...
Now, that would make for an interested back of a guitar.
*You've seen the Ovation Millennium. Now, the Ovation Jurassic!...* |
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| But how long would it take to set compared to the typical bowl material? |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | DanSavage - 2015-12-28 1:15 PM
Explorer - 2015-12-28 11:09 AM
...frozen like an insect in amber...
Now, that would make for an interested back of a guitar.
*You've seen the Ovation Millennium. Now, the Ovation Jurassic!...*
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Welcome Explorer!!!  . I like your adventurous Spirit!!!
Thank you for sharing these, I had never heard of them, very interesting!!!
I would like to hear one of these wood spliced howls in person, they certainly are pretty on the inside!!
And any rejects could be sold as bowls for your table, I would love one of those to put wipe down towels, pics, guitar straps, etc in!!! The guys would probably fill them with ice and beer or wine!
Anyway, Thank you for sharing this, and Welcome to the OFC! . Now, some pictures please??? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Your point about fans being against further experimentation is well taken and I admit guilt at times. I was much younger when I bought my first Ovation because I was impressed by the new technology. After a 20+ year hiatus, I was thrilled that Ovations had on board tuners so I didn't have to use my pitch pipe, but the letters were so small my old eyes couldn't read them. Thankfully, Ovation came out with better tuners. I also thought the iDea was a fantastic use of technology, although it may have been ahead of my time, and everyone else's apparently. I really hoped Ovation would do better with the VXT, but the market for it was apparently too small. I also hope Ovation keeps experimenting, but that their experiments will be more successful.
It may be just one of those times when the guitar market is slow and we can just hope that it picks back up like it has before. |
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| Not to go too far off topic, but there was an Ovation I bought purely based on sound and playability. It has a great woody tone from its solid top, and it does really well in performance and in casual settings.
When I later looked for info on it, the OFC seemed to really be negative about it... based on it not looking enough like the Ovation traditional designs. *laugh* It was funny, in a sad way, to see Ovation fans engaging in the same prejudices against different shapes that others hold against Ovation. It was just a matter of degree of where they thought it acceptable to draw the line against *unacceptable* differences.
----
Anyway, I'm hoping that Ovation fans and supporters will continue to applaud and encourage experimentation, instead of calcifying like many others of the guitar playing world. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I don't know why anyone would object to experimentation??? That's how things happen, change, improve........... |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Darkbar - 2015-12-28 4:57 PM
I don't know why anyone would object to experimentation??? That's how things happen, change, improve...........
+1 as long as the integrity of *Ovation* is maintained!
Just as a FYI, sometimes Explorer, when F***** (that name which shall not be spoken or written) had the Company, they did things that were cheaper and/or inconsistent with what *Ovation* stood for, and it is hard to praise anything they did, not to mention what they did to long-time Employees and their Family's. The Bottom Line is that there is NO Bad Ovation, there are higher priced ones, and lower priced ones, but they ALL have the Quality and Innovation that is *Ovation*!
We are all quite excited by the new things coming out from DW, they are a VERY Creative Company, with VERY High Quality Standards, and they have the new technology to come up with some really Fun new things for Ovation!! I am really excited by what we have seen from them, and can't wait to see more!!!
Edited by Nancy 2015-12-28 6:08 PM
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Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | Innovation, it's all in the name: innOvation |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | BanjoJ - 2015-12-28 8:37 PM
Innovation, it's all in the name: innOvation
+1. |
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Location: SF Bay area, California | The only hand laid fiberglass bowl O models I have are a couple of Pacemakers, my others are SMC (sheet molding compound), which I believe others are calling FRP. SMC can have many compositions, and generally have some percentage of glass fiber, which adds stiffness, stability, and strength.
I've heard of, but never seen, a couple of Filippino brands of bowl back (wood) guitars, that I believe are carved. At least one of them was from Cebu.
I've no reason to believe the below are in current production:
I own a Japanese Morris O knockoff, with a hand laid fiberglass bowl. It's string spacing may be a tad narrower than O's typical 1.68". I suspect it to have been made in the '70s or '80s. It's a pretty nice guitar, currently loaned to a friend.
I've got a cheapy Argentine Prointer Maverick O knockoff, also with a hand laid fiberglass bowl. It's low quality. It's in storage and I haven't seen it in a few years. It is old, and the neck is solid, not built up like O's.
I rather like the looks (from web pictures I've seen) of the carved wooden and woven alder bowl backs. I expect that the woven bowls can be light, and I've got no experience to guess their acoustic properties.
These rather random comments on bowl back guitars have been brought to you by
M^2 |
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Location: Texas | FYI (clipped from http://www.spaxmusic.com):
Edited by standing 2016-01-05 3:46 PM
 (Axiom.jpg)
Attachments
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 Axiom.jpg (143KB - 3 downloads)
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | This is what happens (ALWAYS) when you outsource stuff.
Other companies take your designs and claim them as their own. 
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| I wonder if what they're saying is that they developed manufacturing for the Celebrity double-neck, the uke, and other such after Ovation contracted with them for OEM product.
Their work for Ovation started in 1995? I know that Jimmy Page was performing on an Ovation double-neck in 1995. Is it possible that they made the models given to Page?
I find it very interesting to see that they were involved with Ovation for so long, and that the CRSA wood bowls developed from their experience with that. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Nooo! Jimmy Page's Double-neck Ovation was an Ovation.
I also think that Jimmy Page's was before 2000.
 
Notice that Page's has "outie" epaulets... Celebrity Double-necks have "innies".
These folks were contracted to make Chinese Celebrity guitars.
The double-necks that they made were Celebrity's.
They didn't Create ****. They copied some stuff and put an Ovation 2000 label on a CS257.
The copied a Viper in the cheapest way possible.
Don't confuse that with "creating" anything.
Celebrity models say "Ovation USA" inside of the bowls because the bowls were made in the USA.
So this company made a copy an Ovation bowl outta plywood...
That isn't really innovative. And there are threads about these bowls from before I joined.
So this isn't particularly "new". I ain't impressed. 
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2016-01-06 1:18 AM
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| Well, since I was playing one of my two 12-strings with the CWSA bowls today, I just have to note that they're "plywood" the same way you'd say an Ovaion is like a fiberglass bathtub.
Funny, though... For a second i thought i was on the Martin forum, with the whole "salad bowl guitar," or "plywood bowl back" thing, and aversion to experimentation.
I've already commented on it but it's always strange to see a member of the OFC be negative about a direction which Ovation is exploring. It's funny, in a sad way, to see Ovation fans engaging in the same prejudices against something new that others hold against Ovation, with the only difference being in where they thought it acceptable to draw the line against *unacceptable* innovations.
I'd like to think that maybe if no one is complaining about innovation, Ovation isn't pushing the edge enough.
Hopefully I'll never get to the point where innovation is a problem for me. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think there's a bit of a language barrier with the info from the website. It's been long known that Ovation imports were made in Korea and that unlike most other companies, I was led to understand that Ovation actually had a relationship with the Korean factory and may actually have owned it at one time. I can't imagine a Korean company contracting with a Chinese company to build anything, but I guess anything is possible.
In the early 2000's I was in Korea on business. I ran across some Korean "Ovations" that actually had a different name on the headstock. They were damn nice guitars and closer to USA Ovations in quality and build. When I started asking questions that had anything to do with Ovation, I was swiftly persuaded to leave that part of the market. I was actually complimenting them on the build and inquiring about purchase, but they made it clear (once I mentioned Ovation), there was no way one of those guitars was going to leave the country. I'm guessing, just like in the USA, luthiers are luthiers, and sometimes they build things to keep themselves amused.
I believe there are certain standards/criteria that a guitar meets before it becomes some sort of infringement. I do recall an Ovation rep spending his first couple days at NAMM handing politely encouraging some of these folks to cease and desist... With the change of hands in the past few years, I hope DW was able to get control of all the licensing stuff. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Explorer - 2016-01-05 11:39 PM
Hopefully I'll never get to the point where innovation is a problem for me.
I was not talking about innovation... I was talking about copying.
YOU started this speculation that somehow Ovation was joining with this other company.
I have seen nothing on the Ovation website or DW website that leads me to believe that is the case.
Although this company was sub-contractor for Ovation.
BUT! I have seen many copies of the Ovation bowl... Most of them pretty poor.
Eclipse wood bowl guitars have been around for at least a decade, if not longer.
Alvarez made a nice wood-bowl back in 1981.
Other guitar companies making poor copies of the Kaman design is not improving.
Show me an Ovation-copy that is better than the original and I will be impressed.
These plywood bowls are not new, and this is not some sudden revelation.
As to the bowl in the photo, that is just an Ovation bowl with a wood pattern.
On Facebook #ovationguitars says, "That is wood "(wink) as in that is a joke.
Look closely at the ring around the manhole cover... That ain't wood.
As to me not liking innovation... Yeah, I am stuck in my ways... anything after 1980 sux.
I like Ovation guitars. But it is possible for "Ovation" to make something that I won't like.
DJ Ashba and Heroin Diaries guitars come to mind. 
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| I appreciate your expert opinion on it not being wood, including it not possibly being a CWSA bowl. Could you describe what features are present in the Ovation photo which have allowed you to be so sure, but which don't apply to this guitar, which absolutely does have a CWSA back?  http://www.spaxmusic.com/bbs/data/cwr/XN630CE.jpg I also would be interested in hearing how you determined that the clearly visible checkerboard pattern underlying the fake woodgrain on the Ovation back, which is a distinguishing feature of the CWSA wood bowl, is not an artifact of it being a CWSA bowl, and what your alternate explanation is for the pattern appearing on the Ovation bowl at all. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Gee Explorer... You might be right.
Because I notice that the OP-30 Can does not seem to fit the bowl correctly.
But I don't see an "obvious" checkerboard pattern...
It could be how they applied the fake wood grain onto it.
Why not just leave the wood pattern from the real wood?
As to "why put a wood pattern on a bowl?"
The same reason the they painted to bowls brown.
To attract wood lovers. Or... cuz they can.
There are Blue bowls and Red bowls... Flame bowls and Shiny bowls.
BTW-- I know why Ovations and Adamii have offset sound holes...
I know why some have Center-holes and some have Epaulets.
Why do Eclipses and other Spax creations have Both? To avoid a lawsuit?
Also... If Ovation goes to plywood bowls, I won't be buying any of them.
I am sure that someone has considered it in the last 50 years, and decided against it.
And Explorer... I am glad that you like your plywood bowls.
I have played them and I was not impressed. Just sayin'
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| Old Man Arthur - 2016-01-06 5:20 PM Gee Explorer... You might be right. Because I notice that the OP-30 Can does not seem to fit the bowl correctly. But I don't see an "obvious" checkerboard pattern... It could be how they applied the fake wood grain onto it. Why not just leave the wood pattern from the real wood?
It's possible that ovation was doing a proof-of-concept prototype. I hadn't noticed what looks like a raised edge on the preamp can in that photo. Good eye!I couldn't find it easily, but a while ago on the Spax site, there was a topic on the forum about the painted woodgrain (pictured in my first post) which was applied on top of the CWSA bowl. Spax was open about the "woodgrain" being a painted finish to the CWSA bowls. You can see the lines running perpendicular to the direction of the neck/strings, even in the blown-up detail of the back door you posted, in the lighter areas. Since you caught the raised preamp edge, this should be trivial for you.
Old Man Arthur - 2016-01-06 5:20 PM As to "why put a wood pattern on a bowl?" The same reason the they painted to bowls brown. To attract wood lovers. Or... cuz they can. There are Blue bowls and Red bowls... Flame bowls and Shiny bowls. BTW-- I know why Ovations and Adamii have offset sound holes... I know why some have Center-holes and some have Epaulets. Why do Eclipses and other Spax creations have Both? To avoid a lawsuit?
Do they all have both?
Of course, at this point there have been many guitar makers who have used offset soundholes. The biggest embrace of such is currently among carbon fiber guitar makers, with models from Composite Acoustics, Rainsong, and Emerald Guitars, but an offset design made Tacoma instruments instantly recognizable.
The loss of the leaf motif on Ovation instruments does take away from the instant recognition of an Ovation. Then again, a lot of people didn't like the original carved headstock on the Adamas. Not all people have the same tastes, and that's okay. Old Man Arthur - 2016-01-06 5:20 PM Also... If Ovation goes to plywood bowls, I won't be buying any of them. I am sure that someone has considered it in the last 50 years, and decided against it. And Explorer... I am glad that you like your plywood bowls. I have played them and I was not impressed. Just sayin'
And it is absolutely fine to not like a product, or how a company innovates and changes over time. Your dislke has been expressed a few times and noted in this topic, and likely won't change, so I'm glad that it's been made clear enough that further reiteration is unnecessary. All these are interesting digressions, and it would be interesting to see a separate topic on the evolution of visual elements on Ovation instruments over time, as well as a comparison of similar such elements from other companies.
Drum World hasn't been shy in experimenting with materials, and they were interested enough to invest their money in saving the Ovation factory. The fact is, the older incarnation of Ovation didn't survive. I'd like to see Ovation not just continue, but even grow, gaining in relevance for the current generation of musicians instead of focusing on catering to older collectors who cannot sustain the company as a viable commercial venture.
Me? I'm interested in seeing where this continued interaction between Ovation and Spax leads. |
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Location: Texas | "older collectors who cannot sustain the company as a viable commercial venture" +1 Yep...this board did not and will not save Ovation from market insignificance. They have to come up with a product that is different...but the same...much like Chevy and Ford did with the Mustang and Camaro. Problem is, DW doesn’t have the pockets of F or GM. And cars are not guitars. Ovation does not have the perfect storm of Campbell, developing a killer piezo for acoustic amplification, an exciting new guitar design and a kajillion artists wanting that on stage. Those days are gone. Making guitars out of "plastic" isn't earth shattering...yes, Ovation came up with it first, but that means nothing today in the market. DW has its work cut out. It is exciting to see them trying to get the roundback design to evolve in this millennium... hopefully they can find a niche, in an already saturated market.
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I think that you have the concept of "partnership" and "sub-contractor" confused.
As to Old Farts and collectors...
There are people that collect old Martins, Washburns, old Fenders.
Those people are not buying HPL Martins, Chinese Washburns, or anything new by Fender.
I like Ovations.
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| Old Man Arthur - 2016-01-07 11:37 AM
I think that you have the concept of "partnership" and "sub-contractor" confused.
As to Old Farts and collectors...
There are people that collect old Martins, Washburns, old Fenders.
Those people are not buying HPL Martins, Chinese Washburns, or anything new by Fender.
I like Ovations.
I don't know what the current relationship is. I do know that Spax owns the patent on the woven wooden composite bowl, and that Ovation seems to be pursuing that with them.
You might not realize this, but your dislike of this work with Spax has come through loud and clear yet again. I just reminds me of a topic from another forum (not a runner's forum) on long distance running, where one member entered to let everyone else know how little the member liked running, with nothing constructive to add to the conversation. It's hilarious to find echoes of it in this topic.
jay - 2016-01-07 11:05 AM
"older collectors who cannot sustain the company as a viable commercial venture"
Yep...this board did not and will not save Ovation from market insignificance. They have to come up with a product that is different...but the same...much like Chevy and Ford did with the Mustang and Camaro.
Problem is, DW doesn’t have the pockets of F or GM. And cars are not guitars. Ovation does not have the perfect storm of Campbell, developing a killer piezo for acoustic amplification, an exciting new guitar design and a kajillion artists wanting that on stage. Those days are gone. Making guitars out of "plastic" isn't earth shattering...yes, Ovation came up with it first, but that means nothing today in the market.
DW has its work cut out. It is exciting to see them trying to get the roundback design to evolve in this millennium... hopefully they can find a niche, in an already saturated market.
I've been thinking about the whole artist angle recently, thinking specifically about two artists appearances:
The first was a strange bump in hurdy gurdy sales, caused by Sting playing hurdy gurdy to accompany his duet with Allison Kraus on the Academy Awards. It struck a chord with some young players, and I occasionally hear people in their 20s pulling out this instrument. It seems so odd to me, as they're not cheap, but it's this weird placemarker which might grow into someone using the hurdy gurdy more in the future.
The second was Taylor Swift and her use of the six-string banjo on her song Mean, with the instrument being visible in the music video, and also in her appearance in (I think) the Grammies. That led to a bump in interest in six-string banjos among not just younger players, but specifically girls and young women. It was interesting to see the contrast between my friends in retail noting that they were selling a surprising number of such instruments, and the traditionalists on a banjo forum who were hating on Taylor Swift for not following the totally hip example of playing like Earl Scruggs. For some reason, the banjo forum just wasn't interested in promoting banjo playing as a whole, but just wanted one tradition to represent banjo, even though that one tradition doesn't even garner enough interest to keep the bluegrass channel up on satellite radio over the holidays. (It was bumped for Hannukah music, because it has lower numbers than even the lowest rated stations among various popular musics.)
This is the model of gear placement used by many manufacturers, and I'm hopeful Ovation will again be able to get gear into the hands of artists who are relevant to the music-listening and -playing public. I'm in favor of Ovation doing so without any caveats, whether it be with the new ideas, with a resurgence of older lines, or whatever. I think that if Ovation survives, Ovation will continue innovating, following in the footsteps first laid down by Charlie Kaman. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | 
Copying for fun is OK. Copying for profit, not so much.
Edited by MWoody 2016-01-08 8:07 AM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Yer right.... I'd say the same thing about uke/guitars. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Slipkid - 2016-01-08 1:27 PM
Yer right.... I'd say the same thing about uke/guitars.
So I guess that means you don't want to hear my cover of Over the Rainbow/Wonderful World on guitar, capoed to sound like a uke. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Mark...If you're doin' it, ... yes I do. |
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| CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-08 11:30 AM
Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero.
Yes, because Johnny St. Cyr and Django Reinhardt didn't understand that they had to sound like Scruggs.
Really? Your argument is that all banjo has to sound like a Scruggs roll?
That's seems like arguing that a guitar has to have a wooden back and sides like a Martin.
I always find it interesting when people involved in a creative endeavor like music can't muster enough imagination to broaden their perspective. |
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Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-09 6:30 AM
Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero.
+1
A 5 string banjo tuned to G is so close to a guitar for a guitarist that it's very easy to learn the minor variations in the chords.
But I guess it's just a bit too difficult for some.
To each their own.
Edited by BanjoJ 2016-01-09 2:31 AM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-08 11:30 AM
If you want it to SOUND like a banjo........
Really? That's a thing? |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Explorer - 2016-01-09 1:46 AM
CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-08 11:30 AM
Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero.
Yes, because Johnny St. Cyr and Django Reinhardt didn't understand that they had to sound like Scruggs.
Really? Your argument is that all banjo has to sound like a Scruggs roll?
That's seems like arguing that a guitar has to have a wooden back and sides like a Martin.
I always find it interesting when people involved in a creative endeavor like music can't muster enough imagination to broaden their perspective.
That was rude and uncalled for. You might want to get to know some of these people before you start labeling and insulting them. |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-08 1:30 PM
Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero.
+1 Buy a banjo. There are very few banjitar (gitjo) songs. 5-string is a lot of fun to play. Like anything else it's work, but well worth it. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | That's OK, Explorer. Some folks are too lazy to do anything but cheat. If that's the kind of person you are you ought to get yourself one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHORD-BUDDY-Guitar-Learning-Teaching-System...
It'll make your banjitar and guitar playing both so much better. You won't even need callouses! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Slipkid - 2016-01-08 8:15 PM
Mark...If you're doin' it, ... yes I do.
I'm a bit worried that I might derail this thread just when it was getting into some banjo bashing, but yes, I did Izzy's cover or medley, by capoing up and just playing the top 4 strings. It was close to how he played it on a uke. Like most things, I haven't played it in years and I'd have to find the tab I used and work on it a bunch to do it again.
Getting way off track, I was working on other versions of Wonderful World or Over the Rainbow back then and bought a tab book from Eva Cassidy's family to start on her version of Rainbow. I really like that version and it works good in the same key and if I sing it down an octave it fits my range well.
Back on track, I suspect Explorer is doing a bit of baiting here, or perhaps is just arguing. I get enough of that at work.
I am concerned about the loss of the brand recognition that trademarks and patents are designed to protect. That is a real risk, particularly in China. There seems to be a fuzzy line between innovation and patent infringement and I wonder if Fender did as much to protect the brand as Ovation did back when Charlie and Bill were running the show. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Back on track, I suspect Explorer is doing a bit of baiting here, or perhaps is just arguing. I get enough of that at work.
You're right, but I'm feeling like a wrung-out dishrag today and it just hit me wrong. And of course you know how much I love my banjo. Scruggs style, clawhammer, Fleck style, or even Alison style which is a cross between traditional and jazz. But always, always, ALWAYS on a five-string, which brings so many new possibilities into play that in a lot of ways it is far easier to play than guitar. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ok you's guys... knock it off. Why? Cause you got me thinking about Banjo's today.... and I don't understand them, nor do I care to, and I certainly don't like thinking about them. No offense intended to Banjo players... But for perspective I'd rather listen to Country music or RAP, or chalk on a blackboard if I'm being honest. Well that's an exaggeration, I can listen to a little bit of Banjo... I'd just rather not. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | That's OK Miles. If there weren't people who hated banjo's I wouldn't have been able to add to my collection the way I did last summer. All I had to do was leave a banjo in my unlocked car and before long, people had put 2 more in it. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-09 4:57 PM
That's OK Miles. If there weren't people who hated banjo's I wouldn't have been able to add to my collection the way I did last summer. All I had to do was leave a banjo in my unlocked car and before long, people had put 2 more in it.
LOL!!!!!!!!!! Excellent!!! LOL!!!! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-09 2:57 PM
That's OK Miles. If there weren't people who hated banjo's I wouldn't have been able to add to my collection the way I did last summer. All I had to do was leave a banjo in my unlocked car and before long, people had put 2 more in it.
Now that's funny !!! LOL |
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| Nancy - 2016-01-09 6:14 AM
Explorer - 2016-01-09 1:46 AM
CanterburyStrings - 2016-01-08 11:30 AM
Six string banjo's are bogus. If you want it to SOUND like a banjo, you need it to be TUNED like a banjo. Those E and A bass strings sound awful, and without the fifth string you can never get a decent-sounding roll.
If you want to play banjo, get a real banjo. As far as I'm concerned, those fake six strings banjo's are the equivalent of guitar hero.
Yes, because Johnny St. Cyr and Django Reinhardt didn't understand that they had to sound like Scruggs.
Really? Your argument is that all banjo has to sound like a Scruggs roll?
That's seems like arguing that a guitar has to have a wooden back and sides like a Martin.
I always find it interesting when people involved in a creative endeavor like music can't muster enough imagination to broaden their perspective.
That was rude and uncalled for. You might want to get to know some of these people before you start labeling and insulting them.
Nancy, I just had a hard time imagining that someone was defining the whole world of banjos by usage of a roll. That seemed rather limiting, in the same way as I noted that Martin doesn't define the world of guitars.
I do like that there were then comments about laziness and such. I don't mind learning more about a person, especially through their comments and what they reveal.
But now, back to my hopes for more information on Ovation expanding beyond the current lines, already much further outside the limits of the Martin-only mindset. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | I have apologized to Mr Ovation for my comments, this is his and Al's House, and I am a Guest here too.
You seem like a very intelligent person Explorer, so you already know that sometimes you can garner more insight with a kinder, more gentle approach when inquiring about someone's thought process.
I ask more questions here than a 2 year old to it's mother, and everyone here has always been extremely kind and patient in sharing their time, insight and knowledge with me. And I ask some doozies!
Edited by Nancy 2016-01-09 8:40 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | No... No need to apologize Nancy.
Don't back down. Explorer is a Troll.
He even sez so himself in the Welcome Center.
Yeah, and I meant it too.
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Location: SoCal | Nancy, IMHO your questions are an innocent and sincere attempt to gain desired information, without sarcasm or reflective of a bias (other than support of Ovation and the efforts of the Ovation staff).
Unfortunately, some log on with a bias rather that a desire to seek advice or information concerning a specific subject.
These are the individuals that act like they have been hurt or abused...as if they are a victim. Fortunately, many of us recognize them as the perpetrator.
The strength of the OFC in the past was that even though to some the answer may be obvious, the archive or forum responses are helpful to newer members. As many of the "older folks" have stopped or reduced their posting, many of the questions are necessary and valid to newer members. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Tony Calman - 2016-01-09 11:45 PM
... The strength of the OFC in the past was that even though to some the answer may be obvious, the archive or forum responses are helpful to newer members. As many of the "older folks" have stopped or reduced their posting, many of the questions are necessary and valid to newer members.
That is very true, and very insightful Tony! I am sure that a ton of people have already asked the same questions I am, and have answered them over and over again. That is what also makes this Group so Special, they still take the time to share their knowledge, or direct you to where you can find it. They are Good People who honestly want to share what they know!
Thank You very much Tony!
Now to go back on topic, has Ovation said anything about the Spax backs on their guitars? They had that very simple answer of "It's Wood" and then the WINK , has Ovation confirmed anything that anyone has seen?? They are showing some VERY nice pieces on their FB page! |
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Location: Flahdaw | I give OMA a lot of credit. He seems always happy to answer the same old newbie's questions over and over again, with never an edge or sarcastic barb attached. For an old veteran of the OFC, he has lots of patience.
But enter a troll, and all niceties vanish. It's fun to witness the sudden transformation...from helpful old codger, to abrasive old bastard. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I finally met OMA last year and he fit my perception of him as a crusty old fart, which is a term of respect by me. Maybe the best anyone would get from me. Anyway, I recognize his concern that Ovation could lose its market share even more to offshore companies that might not be on the up and up. I am also guilty of wanting to keep the traditions, even though I bought my first Ovation in 1977 because the company was innovative and bucked the traditions. Maybe it was a function of growing up in the 60s, or maybe it's just a function of getting old.
Although I'd like to see Ovation return to its former glory, I'd be happy if it just grew its US operations with some products that were artful and edgy. |
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| Mark in Boise - 2016-01-10 10:05 AM I am also guilty of wanting to keep the traditions, even though I bought my first Ovation in 1977 because the company was innovative and bucked the traditions. Maybe it was a function of growing up in the 60s, or maybe it's just a function of getting old. Although I'd like to see Ovation return to its former glory, I'd be happy if it just grew its US operations with some products that were artful and edgy.
I also would love to see US operations grow, but I suspect that quite a few US guitar makers wouldn't be able to continue with their US production work without the financial support of their foreign-made instrument divisions. Martin is an iconic American brand, and I suspect that they make more on the non-US products than on the high-end US models. Regarding a return to tradition, I'd be completely happy to see what Ovation could do with lighter carbon fiber composite for the bowls, but retaining the old birch sandwich top and suspension. Really, it seems even the Spax bowls are lighter than the fiberglass, so that would be even more interesting, but the birch sandwich and the suspension are two (of many) features which really make the old Adamas line fundamentally different from much of what other companies have done. ---- It was interesting to run across a topic on a different forum, quoting an anonymous inside source at Ovation mentioning Charlie Kaman sourcing things from the Philippines when doing R&D. This instrument, from the '60s-'70s, has a wood back, possibly rosewood from the look in the photos from the inside which include the label, but with a shiny finish over the outside of the bowl. 
Maybe the person will join and post a topic here, as suggested to them.
It's interesting to see another wood-bowled instrument coming from direct interaction with Ovation. It's like reading a chart with the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them.
---- I'm aware of another builder who is making Ovation-style wood-backed instruments for students of the Robert Fripp Guitar Craft courses, but there was no direct contact with Ovation, as far as I'm aware. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | Keep in mind that Ovation didn't invent the bowl-back guitar. Charlie was the first one to make them out of fiberglass instead of the traditional wood.
The bowl-back guitar was a transition from the traditional lute to the current flat-back we all know today. Way back when, the transitional bowl-back guitar was called a vaulted back guitar. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Explorer - 2016-01-10 4:21 PM
It was interesting to run across a topic on a different forum, quoting an anonymous inside source at Ovation mentioning Charlie Kaman sourcing things from the Philippines when doing R&D. This instrument, from the '60s-'70s, has a wood back, possibly rosewood from the look in the photos from the inside which include the label, but with a shiny finish over the outside of the bowl.
Maybe the person will join and post a topic here, as suggested to them.
It's interesting to see another wood-bowled instrument coming from direct interaction with Ovation. It's like reading a chart with the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them.
First... That is not an Ovation. That is not even a good copy of an Ovation.
Second... Charlie didn't go looking for someone to make Wood Bowl guitars.
If he wanted wood bowl Ovations, where are the Prototypes?
Third... Asia doesn't lead to ELO to ELP to Rush to Yes to Zappa, or vice-versa.
Nor is there I direct progression between all guitars with round backs.
There are round-back guitars that are older than the Ovation guitar.
But many recent round back guitars are obvious copies of Ovation.
You cannot say that Ovations suck... then try to copy them.
Remember... Imitation is the Sincerest form of Flattery
As Dan points-out, there were round back stringed instruments before there were wood-boxes.
I don't believe that is the reason for Ovation's bowl shape.
I believe that is because the spherical shape is sturdy, and does not need internal braces.
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I have always found it interesting that what we consider the "traditional" square/flat back guitar is the "standard." The primary reason for the flat back guitar was ease of mass production. As time went on, many or most tried to make that shape better. I believe Charlie's approach was more.. "how can I make a better guitar" and rounding the back just made the most sense. I don't think it was even a nod to the early guitars, but simply for strength, and vibration, and projection, and now that things like Fiberglass and similar tech existed.... ease of mass production as well. I have posted the research many times... but the first actual instruments to be called "guitar" had round backs.
As far as copies, there are many. More and more are showing up, but they have always been around. Remember way back 15 years ago, we didn't have Facebook, and the WWW certainly wasn't as worldwide as the name would infer and well, they were in places that most of us never heard of. Now with the invent of CNC technology, copies are even more prevalent, and sorry to say, they are good. Not so much for acoustic guitars, but for electrics it's pretty out of control. It's one thing to copy a Les Paul which it seems everyone is looking out for... even some of the copies are pretty amazing... but there are PRS, Ibanez, BC Rich, Schecter, etc copies that are arguably nearly indistinguishable from the originals, or at least good enough to invest in and just swap out the crap electronics and hardware for decent stuff and you saved a boatload of $'s.
Anyway... the origins and history of Ovation is well documented. Pretty safe to say that most any composite material roundback is a copy. Wood round backs are just nods to the original guitar design as it should be. I think it's very clever that folks like Spax and others have found ways to improve on the Original Wood round back. But as stated, Ovation was never a copy of the original wood roundbacks, it just kinda happened. Much like if someone suggested an engineer "reinvent the wheel"... it would likely end up being round. |
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Location: Texas | For you experienced folks... Does anyone every win a p!ssing contest? |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Would the Spax (wood based) bowls be imperious to moisture and heat like the Ovation Bowls?
i am curious if these backs would have higher maintenance being wood, one of the selling points of the Ovation Bowl is the strength for traveling, and touring, as opposed to a standard wood back.
Are they bonded with a resin type material that handles that? What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used? Are costs cheaper, and how would they be with the additional work of the lattice design and mfg'ing of the Spax bowl? Does this back change, or affect the sound or vibration??
Please note, I would really like to know, I am not questioning progress or change, but want to understand the reason and theory behind a proposed change. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | jay - 2016-01-10 10:36 PM
For you experienced folks... Does anyone every win a p!ssing contest?
I am not equipped mentally, or physically to participate in one, but from what I have heard, it has something to do with which way the wind is blowing. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Nancy - 2016-01-10 8:45 PM
What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used?
The major advantage of the Plywood Back is to avoid lawsuits.
It seems that Spax was a Celebrity manufacturer (under license, or course).
So basically Spax is trying to copy it's own version of Celebrity (sans license)
and plywood avoids the lawsuit.
Also... These plywood backs have been around for Years.
They have been discussed on the OFC before.
In none of those conversations did anyone say the the plywood bowls sounded Better.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2016-01-10 11:59 PM
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| Nancy - 2016-01-10 8:45 PM
Would the Spax (wood based) bowls be imperious to moisture and heat like the Ovation Bowls?
i am curious if these backs would have higher maintenance being wood, one of the selling points of the Ovation Bowl is the strength for traveling, and touring, as opposed to a standard wood back.
Are they bonded with a resin type material that handles that? What would be the advantage of using this back as opposed to the normal bowl currently used? Are costs cheaper, and how would they be with the additional work of the lattice design and mfg'ing of the Spax bowl? Does this back change, or affect the sound or vibration??
I have to admit, I don't treat my two Hohners in a way which would damage the solid spruce top, so if I need to use a guitar which is impervious to moisture and humidity extremes, I'll grab one of the Rainsongs.
The layers are bound by resin.
I think the sound of these instruments relies more in the top, and the shape of the backs and sides, than the material used for the backs and sides. Over the years, there has been more than one blind test on various acoustic guitar forums where members were unable to consistently identify what woods were used for the backs/sides beyond what was predicted by chance/guessing.
I do remember that somewhere on the Spax site, there is mention of possibly using different combinations of wood in the woven lattice, but all the instruments specifications I've seen so far refer to the woven alder.
Regarding any contest regarding that Philippines-made instrument, I have no reason to doubt what that forum member shared regarding the information given to him in a phone call from an Ovation luthier. I won't presume to have first-hand knowledge of what Charlie Kaman would or definitively would not do.
Neither do I claim to have first hand knowledge of the development of the patented Spax CWSA back, nor of why Ovation would be working with them if they instead wanted to file a lawsuit. I do welcome learning of first hand details, if these are actual facts instead of baseless assertions.
Just as a comment, when I specified "the various winding branches connecting different prog rock bands, as well as bands descending from them," I wasn't saying that all bands had descended from each other. That's why "descending" bands were an additional clause. However, in a great irony, four of the six names given as a counterexample (Asia, ELP, Yes, Zappa) have branches connecting them to King Crimson (Wetton, Lake, Bruford, Belew).
Thanks to DanSavage and Mr. Ovation for the informative comments!
Edited by Explorer 2016-01-11 12:53 AM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Explorer, while I don't doubt someone said something... the assertion that any US company was doing any "contracting" with the Philippines in the 60/70's is suspicious. That is anything more than the Military presence we held there. FWIW, I was there. There were some copies of solid-body guitars being made and some acoustics... but getting anything legally in or out of the country actually took an act of Congress during much of that timeframe. The only R&D Kaman may have been doing there is testing how helo's take off and land in the tropics or in typhoons. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My concerns about all of this (other than Nancy mixing up her metaphors and trying to have a pissing contest into the wind) is that Ovation doesn't get ripped off. I don't know if anyone during the Fender occupation did anything to protect the patents and trademarks and I don't think we, as the Ovation Fan Club, should be supporting any company if it is infringing. I don't know whether Spax is or isn't infringing, but that confusion is one of the signs of infringement. |
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| Since Ovation posted the photo of the CWSA back combined with the Ovation neck on the Ovation Facebook page... There is no reason to doubt that Ovation is on board.
Until there is evidence to the contrary, like that their Facebook account got hacked at the same time that neck got put on that body, is there confusion from the horse's mouth on this?
Other than Ovation's words and actions, everything else (including my own ideas) have been speculation about where Ovation stands on this. Once you take the rest away, the evidence shows Ovation being willing to post the photo.
If people feel hostile towards Ovation for doing so, that's their right.
----
And again, I have no reason to doubt the story of the call from an Ovation luthier, and no first hand knowledge of what decisions Charlie Kaman would make on his own. I've never been an Ovation employee, not even during the time frame for that instrument, so I'm open to information coming from within Ovation on that.
Edited by Explorer 2016-01-11 10:18 AM
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Explorer, the problem is that "within Ovation" isn't really "within Ovation" anymore. I'm sure you know that DW saved Ovation from extinction and a handful of employees stayed. As far as I know, those weren't the employees who were on the management end, they were the employees who built guitars and did warranty work. Most of the management from Charlie's era moved on in one way or another or left during the Fender era or when they shut down the New Hartford operation.
So I don't think you can assume what you saw on Ovation's Facebook page has any significance as far as where Ovation stands. It's trying to get back up and running and might not know where it stands on this right now. |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Mark in Boise - 2016-01-11 9:56 AM
My concerns about all of this (other than Nancy mixing up her metaphors and trying to have a pissing contest into the wind)
LOL!!!!!! For some really strange reason, I am quite proud that I did not know the right answer! |
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| The bowl on the picture is wood, its like a salad bowl. Its just an experiment that we are playing with. It most likely will never see the light of day because it has at this point no sonic advantage and its too stiff. |
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Location: Pueblo West, CO | xraiderman - 2016-01-11 7:58 PM
...at this point no sonic advantage and its too stiff.
Yep. |
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| That's all I can say about that |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | xraiderman - 2016-01-11 10:26 PM
That's all I can say about that
Thank You BillX!!!! |
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| Mark in Boise - 2016-01-11 9:26 AM
Explorer, the problem is that "within Ovation" isn't really "within Ovation" anymore. I'm sure you know that DW saved Ovation from extinction and a handful of employees stayed. As far as I know, those weren't the employees who were on the management end, they were the employees who built guitars and did warranty work. Most of the management from Charlie's era moved on in one way or another or left during the Fender era or when they shut down the New Hartford operation.
So I don't think you can assume what you saw on Ovation's Facebook page has any significance as far as where Ovation stands. It's trying to get back up and running and might not know where it stands on this right now.
I can't say from first hand knowledge who at the current Ovation knows about Charlie Kaman's actions. I take it that you're saying from first hand knowledge that none of them would know about such. Is that correct?
Using your logic of where Ovation stands on anything, the 50th models aren't necessarily really from Ovation. There's no argument for or against one which isn't true for the other, and that's confusing.
That's a lot of babies to through out in order to discount the bathwater, at least without relying on special pleading.
In any case, i'm happy to be patient and see where this goes. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | After re-reading all this and seeing xRaiders response, I think we ALL need to take a step back and think about things for a moment.
In the past, Ovation was EXTREMELY hush hush on anything they were doing. We would get little bits and pieces here and there, but that's about it. And even with the bits and pieces it was all pure speculation. Now I'm sure there will still be plenty of things still under wraps, but Ovation is embracing the global connection they have through us and social media in general like any manufacturer worth their salt should. It's not design by committee, but more just sharing the process. We don't need to jump on every tidbit like it's some big secret because there are, will be, and have been LOTS of tidbits. Speculating on which might turn into something interesting... that's our new role in all this, and frankly, it seems like it's more fun. I LOVE watching the creative process. It's why I had a recording studio. It's why I love factory tours. It's why I go to conventions. I LOVE not only knowing how the sausage is made, but how they decided they wanted sausage in the first place.
So back to this photo we've been discussing, and combined others and with the words from xRaiderman... I'm pretty stoked to see what Ovation ultimately turns out in 2016 and beyond. From the DW side of the house they obviously know about how sound resonates different materials on drums... and combine that with the knowledge of how sound resonates on different materials on guitars from the guys in CT, and a whole company and culture involved and focused on innovation.... even the most crusty of curmudgeons gotta be say'n.... "This is gonna be fun !!" |
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Location: Jet City | So, DW/Ovation's making sausage now?
I'm waiting for them to do a bowl hollowed out of 1500 year old Romanian River Oak. Neil says it's the shiznit. |
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| If we do make sausage it will be awesome and go good with an Ovation Pilsner.... |
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Location: Frozen Tundra of Minnesota | Beer and Brats, life-blood of the Upper Midwest! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Explorer - 2016-01-12 9:12 AM
Using your logic of where Ovation stands on anything, the 50th models aren't necessarily really from Ovation.
As far as I know, the 50th Anniversary models were made (are being made) by the same people who made my Elite T's, Adamii and 40th Anniversary Balladeer...
I do have some guitars from the 70's and 80's that I am not sure if the builders are still at New Hartford.
But a quick check through the Grand Re-opening threads will give you a run-down of who is still at the Factory and how much experience they each have building Ovations.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2016-01-12 3:26 PM
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | xraiderman - 2016-01-12 11:52 AM
If we do make sausage it will be awesome and go good with an Ovation Pilsner....
+1 put me down for a few cases of both. |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | So explorer,
Charlie was looking to the phillapines?
Bull ****
Never happened
You want it from a reliable source, you got it
That was a bad copy
The first overseas Ovation copy was the Applesause from Korea in 82
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Joined:
December 2015
Posts: 41
| Thanks for the first hand knowledge! I always appreciate primary sources! |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | You are welcome. |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | xraiderman - 2016-01-12 12:58 PM The bowl on the picture is wood, its like a salad bowl. Its just an experiment that we are playing with. It most likely will never see the light of day because it has at this point no sonic advantage and its too stiff. Two things that I particularly like. Ovation are experimenting again and sonics matter. Now all I need is some spare cash and permission from SWMBO. |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | The concept of it is pretty cool, even if there is no sonic advantage, so long as there is no disadvantage. |
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