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Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Education Please--
"Sustain" is often referred to, but I have no idea what is "Good Sustain"...
I know that when I twang my guitar, I can easily hear it for about 7 seconds* (acoustic)
and much longer Plugged In. (even longer with gain/OD)
*[the high E will echo around in the bowl forever]
I thought of this cuz my Oscar Delta King has a bolt-on neck (as do all my electrics),
and the reviewers say that the "Thru Neck" of an ES335 has longer sustain.
Any of my Electric or Acoustic/Electric guitars will twang for a long time...
So how long is considered good?
:rolleyes: We really need an On-Going Thread for Stupid Questions...
Then it could be consolidated into an FAQ section. |
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Joined: July 2003 Posts: 3111
Location: Nashville TN. | Its personal preference |
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Joined: November 2004 Posts: 4413
| There is no answer. Flamenco guitars are designed to have almost no sustain. Archtop jazz guitars have very little natural sustain compared to a full acoustic and with flatwound strings have almost no sustain, acoustic or electric.
Macafferi gypsy guitars are not designed for sustain either.
It really does depend what you want.
JeffW has a Lowden that sustains a note or a chord long enough for you wander off and make a pot of coffee and then come back and finish the song. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | i wanted to make similar topic in nearest future - i think i have problem with sustain of bass E string in my Legend. There is almost no sustain when string is pressed to the fretboard, if it's "open" string, sound is good, but when it's pressed (especially on third position) there is only short "explosion" of sound (2 seconds maybe) and then significant loss of volume. On A string strong sound lasts for at least 10-15 seconds |
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Joined: April 2006 Posts: 1138
Location: CT | Sounds like that low E is bottoming out on a higher fret. Maybe the action needs an adjustment or the neck needs a tweek. If not, maybe theres a good sized dent in the first few frets. |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | about THIS long . . . |
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Joined: April 2006 Posts: 1138
Location: CT | Pi to only 21 digits? How can you get an accurate math solution that way? :D |
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Joined: January 2005 Posts: 4903
Location: Phoenix AZ | This is really odd, but a few years ago I was in Lausanne Switzerland and went for an early morning walk in the outskirts of town. At a bus stop I come across this big monument, maybe 5 feet tall by 3 feet wide. Like a big marble gravestone. But it's right on the roadway. I notice that ingraved into it are numbers. About 150 or so on each side. Very odd. Looking closer I notice that the sequence of numbers is 3.14159265... and on and on. It's freaking Pi to about 300 decimal places. I did a little research on it and found that it's somewhat famous because it's actually missing one number someplace in the sequence. I've got some photos of it at home that I can post. Very odd. Anyone ever heard of or seen this ???
Dave |
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Joined: April 2006 Posts: 1138
Location: CT | Did you figure out which number was missing? |
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Joined: March 2002 Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | I have NO idea what the hell you're talking about . . . |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | Originally posted by brainslag:
Sounds like that low E is bottoming out on a higher fret. Maybe the action needs an adjustment or the neck needs a tweek. If not, maybe theres a good sized dent in the first few frets. guitar has new frets and while neck has bump on 16th fret (about 1mm) on the bass side, i don't see it as a reason of this because there is no sting buzz or so, and string is significantly higher than the frets.
i'm quite convinced that it might be something with the top. top on my legend was broken in few places and there was some additional bracing to give this top "new strength". But other than bass E, sound of this guitar is very good and sustain is ok. |
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Joined: April 2006 Posts: 1138
Location: CT | "I have NO idea what the hell you're talking about . . ."
:D :p |
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Joined: July 2007 Posts: 423
Location: UK | Cliff , im surprised at you , Brainslag , im not surprised at you |
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Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by Tupperware:
This is really odd, but a few years ago I was in Lausanne Switzerland and went for an early morning walk in the outskirts of town. At a bus stop I come across this big monument, maybe 5 feet tall by 3 feet wide. Like a big marble gravestone. But it's right on the roadway. I notice that ingraved into it are numbers. About 150 or so on each side. Very odd. Looking closer I notice that the sequence of numbers is 3.14159265... and on and on. It's freaking Pi to about 300 decimal places. I did a little research on it and found that it's somewhat famous because it's actually missing one number someplace in the sequence. I've got some photos of it at home that I can post. Very odd. Anyone ever heard of or seen this ???
Dave When I was in Switzerland, it was very warm and the universities were on holiday, so you can you bet the house that my attention was singularly focused on Switzerland's other attributes, not its statues nor a string of numbers appearing on the base of one at a bus stop. |
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Joined: July 2007 Posts: 423
Location: UK | |
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Joined: November 2005 Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Well my wife says...
Oh, nevermind. I forgot we were talking guitars.
Carry on. |
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Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Been to Lausanne too. For a skating convention. Really liked, but did not see a monument to PI.
I don't know why, but my wife looks at Fibanocci numbers, for stock trading. It's a weird number, that appears everywhere. |
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Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | LBJ, this is just a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), but maybe it is a saddle problem? When the string angle changes over the saddle, maybe it is pulled into a little depression or worn spot?
You could try stringing it with a thick 6th string but put it where the 5th string goes. Tune it to a low E and see what happens. If it is something related to a defect in the nut, bridge, or frets, the problem should probably go away. For example, a worn spot on the bridge saddle for just the 6th string. But if the problem persists it is a more universal issue with the guitar. Maybe the whole saddle is bad, maybe it is related to the repair to the top. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | tommorow i will adjust the neck and add one shim. my saddle doesn't actually look bad...
i hope he'll survive at least this winter. i think i'll start lurking for a 1614 in good condition.
btw. was there a slothead wood-top, center soundhole ovation made with 1 11/16" neck? |
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Joined: June 2007 Posts: 100
Location: Delaware | LBJ - I'm thinking in addition to saddle/nut possibilities that you might improve sustain but going to smaller gauge strings - I'm guessing you have medium or heavy gauges on the guitar? If that is wrong and you have light gauge, forget my idea. It is interesting that you note the breaks on top of guitar that were repaired.
Since the saddle is there to transfer energy to the top and produce volume and I guess sustain, it is possible that the breaks and repairs mentioned are in the area of the 6th string or under saddle of 6th string? If so, you may be right that the damage or repairs might be effecting tone/sustain.
If you are willing to loosen all 6 strings enough to remove the saddle, make sure there is no dust or wood splinter under the saddle and that it is seating perfectly flat against bottom slot in bridge? Make sure the saddle fits the slot properly... and is not catching on end edges, which would prevent it from seating properly.
One other thing involving saddle is the break angle from bridge pin to saddle. Is it the same as the other strings? Do all strings have a good angle? Without that angle, less energy is transferred and therefore less tone, volume and sustain. You ruled out a notch in the saddle under 6th string, right? I ask because a notch would effectively reduce the break angle too. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | i use 10-50 special light strings.
i think break angle is ok, and top of this guitar was broken on the treble side, so it shouldn't affect the tone on the bass side so strong.
there is also aditional bracing, but considering how other strings sustain and sound, it only improved the sound of this legend adding more mid and high end to it, and making this guitar more balanced.
currently action on this legend is really low, i don't have any shims under the saddle. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | ok. i've added one shim, and bass E sustain improved and i think it's now ok. It's not so easy to play now, but i think i'll get used to. |
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Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | OK, maybe you need a slight truss rod adjustment. For a beginner guitar adjuster like me, it isn't always obvious if high action is due to the bridge or the truss rod. It seems unusual that you would have zero shims, when two or three is fairly common. Maybe a slight tweak on the truss rod will bring it back to low action. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | With one shim action is quite high for my standards.
It's now 2 mm above 12th fret on the bass E string, and i think it's the highest i can tolerate on guitar on which i don't play on alternative tunings. If i drop to D i set guitar for 3mm above 12th fret. |
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Joined: May 2004 Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by schroeder:
...with flatwound strings have almost no sustain... Hey, schroeder (or anyone else that knows), sorry to jump in late here, but is that typical of flatwounds? Do they really sustain less than roundwounds? The reason I ask is because I put flatwounds on all of my non-Ovation/Adamas guitars because I like the tone I get with them and they seem to last almost twice as long as round wounds (even from the same manufacturer).
I have noticed that on a couple of guitars (Hamer P90 Special and Heritage H137D specifically) that as I go up the neck the sustain gets shorter (relative to notes closer to the nut). It hadn't occurred to me that the strings themselves would affect sustain...talk about a "d'oh!" moment. |
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Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4028
Location: Utah | LBJ, tightening the truss rod will lower that action. The question is whether the neck will have enough relief so that it won't buzz if you tighten the truss rod.
You probably already know this, but if you don't, here's a brief intro to adjusting the action. http://mysite.verizon.net/jazz.guitar/guitarsetup.htm#Truss%20Rod%2... is one website that I like.
If you hold a string down at the 13th fret and the 1st fret, there should be a very very slight gap between the string and the 6th fret. Just enough to detect. If you can see daylight, there is too much relief in the neck. If the string touches the fret, there isn't enough relief. Different internet sources say .010 to .013 inches is how much of a gap there should be there. In metric that would be .254 to .330 mm.
Once the neck is adjusted, then you can tell if the saddle height needs adjustment by measuring the height of the strings at the 12th fret. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | holding string on the 13th and first fret i have about 0,8mm gap on 6th fret (pick can't get between string and fret) I can't lower action any more on this guitar because i have a bump on the neck on 16th fret.
The lowest action i've ever seen on a guitar was on a Maton Tommy Emmanuel model, there was only slightly more than 1 mm at 12 fret and it was so incredible that string didn't buzz (ofcourse if you'd strum hard enough it would buzz, but playing "normal way" didn't create any noises) |
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Joined: July 2005 Posts: 354
Location: Flushing, MI | I've noticed a big difference in sustain between my two deep bowls (Matrix and Legend) compared to my SS Celebrity, which has the least sustain of the three guitars. It is annoying sometimes, but not real bad. I can cope with it.
Perhaps there is a tendency of a lack of sustain with Ovations in general when compared with other makes? I dunno, but a side by side comparison would be interesting. |
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Joined: March 2007 Posts: 665
Location: Tychy, Poland | Celebrity LE 2002 i owned had incredible sustain. I don't know what was the reason of it, but it after strumming it i could go, make a tea and when i get back there would still be echo in bowl ringing.
Also, Crafter ED-50 CEQ i had, sustained much longer than this legend... But that doesn't mean that it sounded better. |
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Joined: July 2005 Posts: 354
Location: Flushing, MI | I guess I'm not referring to it's natural acoustic sustain, rather the sustaining of a fretted note. It just seems to be near banjo-like (pardon the expression). I can work with it though. I'm not complaining. |
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