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| Well, the angry smiley (isn’t that an oxymoron?) and the title of this post say it all. The 1619 I snagged on eBay the other day arrived today, and I’m less than pleased with the seller’s honesty and forthrightness in describing the condition of the guitar. According to the seller, the guitar was only used “in a few studio sessions” and “kept in the closet for the last 8 years.” If so, I don’t want to go anywhere near that studio, or that closet!
Before bidding I had asked the seller very specific questions about the condition of the guitar, including finish problems, neck and fret problems, if it had been dropped, condition of the top, etc., etc. You know, all the standard questions. He assured me that there was little wear and that most of it was “perfect,” although he did mention that the volume knob was missing. I also asked him if I could send him a hardshell case for him to ship the guitar back if I should wind up winning the auction, since he advertised in the listing a gig bag for the guitar. He agreed to that, seemed pleasant enough in his reply, so I put in a lowball bid and wound up winning.
As you’ll see by the following pictures, his description of the guitar and assurances of its condition are far from reality. My first inclination of trouble came when the UPS man delivered a bare case with electrical tape wrapped around the clasps. I had sent the case boxed with peanuts and bubble wrap inside the box to secure it, same as if the case actually contained a guitar, fully expecting that he’d use the same material (and technique by example) to send it back. I even wrote detailed instructions on how he should pack & ship it back in the event he’d never shipped a guitar & included those inside the case. Why didn’t I get it back boxed? Good question. My second scare was when I carried the case inside and set it on a table I could hear rattling inside!
Well, the good news is that he removed the strings and packed wadded-up newspaper on either side of the neck, so the neck didn’t snap off in transit. There’s also no belt rash on the bowl, in fact the bowl is in really good shape. The top itself is flat, no bowing or collapsing anywhere. The frets show some, but not excessive wear and the fretboard seems to be in pretty good shape. The rattle I heard? The battery had come loose and was rolling around inside the bowl. Fortunately, it doesn’t look like it damaged any braces.
The bad news you can see by the pictures. The issues as I see them, none of which happened in transit, are:
1. A LOT of finish dings on the top, a couple penetrating to the wood, and quite a bit of rash.
2. About 3/4 of the rosette is unglued and several pieces of the abalone under it are missing, and the rosette itself is stress-cracked in several places.
3. A small bit of the neck binding on the treble side of the rosette has separated from the neck.
4. Worst of all, the bass-side wing on the peghead was very obviously broken off, and even more obviously inexpertly glued back on. There’s enough ancillary damage visible on the peghead to indicate either a hard fall, or something heavy having fallen on the peghead.
I haven’t bothered to string it, nor will I, so I don’t even know if the electronics work or not. Tomorrow I’ll get an RMA from JB and send it off right away to Mother. I know they’re closing up shop for the holiday break, but I’d still like to get it there ASAP, so they can start working their magic as soon as they come back. My consolation is knowing that, even with extensive spa treatment, I’ll have a better-than-new Custom Legend with a top-grade spruce top that’s had 30 years to open up, and I’ll still wind up paying less than what I’ve been seeing other 1619’s going for.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I just had to vent.
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Looks like he threw a lot of shoes in that closet in the last 8 years and most of them hit the guitar. Too bad g8r. I guess it looked like too good a deal. |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | Oh dear lord....sympathies!!! |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Tell him he's a f@ckin liar in your feedback. |
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| Originally posted by Mauvais Beal:
Tell him he's a f@ckin liar in your feedback. I've got a better idea. He lives in Hialeah, where I have a bunch of distant relatives who Castro released from prison and came over during the Mariel boat lift. These are unsavory characters. Maybe i should reestablish "familial" ties and have them "pay him a visit" some night. :mad: |
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Location: Huntington Beach, California | Sorry brother, hope the good folks at Ovation can put it right. Looking at his ebay photo and terse replies, I'd say he knew exactly what he was selling. "pefect working condition" does not instill much confidence. You are right, in the end you will have a great guitar for a good value. I'm still searching for a natural custom legend. |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | I've started out with worse. That seller's kneecaps need a little readjustment, though!
Give Tio Gordo the rascal's address.
I'm sure The Wizards will work their usual miracles on it. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Oooo! I was happy that you finally won your 1619...
Oh well, the folks in CT will fix it up.
The aged top is salvageable?
I expect that you will be much happier when you get it back... ;) |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Call Da boys in New Hartford
That sucks in that condition. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Furthermore, upon re-reading the other posts...
I have a Beater 1112 that is in "Perfect Working Condition", but I'd be embarrassed to list it as a Project! [so I just keep it]
Maybe I am just a bad salesman, but I've sold three guitars and a project. I spend a paragraph listing what is wrong with them, Cuz I've been burnt before! [see 1112]
Ah... You pays your money and takes your chances.
It'll all work-out in the end!
Karma is a ..... |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Wow, g8r...Bummer!
Try as I do to be fair and calm: what Beal said!
It's gonna be ok! The Mothership will prevail! |
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Location: CA | Maybe you missed the part where he said he pounded fence posts in with it.
From what I've read here on other posts (and this may be wrong), doesn't Mom replace tops like this rather than fix them?
And that fix ain't gonna be cheap. I would be tempted to try to get my money back from numb-nuts . . . in a nice way at first. Just tell him the guitar was grossly represented and you want a refund. See what happens. Was this a guy with actual positive feedback or a newbie? |
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| from my experiences past and on-going... a top-bowl replacement gets an estimate of between 5-600 dollars, and this is for non-blinged assemblies.. add a neck job/repair or replacement and that's another 300 more or so..maybe more.. plus the mop rosette replacement, and you basically have a new guitar..
you're looking at an estimate that will be more than the value of that guitar for the repairs in my opinion...especially when you figure in your purchase price, and shipping.
ymmv... but I would be returning it as mis-represented, and pursue a refund.
sorry man... that really sux.
Glenn |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Serge, if you used paypal, I would contact them (you can actually talk to someone there on the phone unlike ebay) and start a claim. I had to do that once, and they ended up freezing the guys paypal and ebay account. They put enough pressure on the guy, that he eventually made things right. (and I didn't even purchase that item through ebay) Thats why I always use paypal credit. If it's not as represented or if you don't get the item, it's like a credit card, you can file a dispute, and usually will prevail. If the item is ok, then you can pay it off next month with no interest. Sorry to hear you got burned, but unless you still think you got a good deal, I would pursue action against him. Just my .02 :mad: |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I missed in your post - did you contact the seller and complain? Tell him you want to return it and get your money back?
Definately you got screwed, because you thought you were getting something different than you got. In the grand scheme of things it's probably worth about what you paid.
You could return it and look for a better one. Or fix this one up. In the end it's gonna cost you about the same.
Dave |
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Location: ms | Sounds like you already made your mind up to keep the guitar. If you don`t have much in it, fix it , play it, and enjoy. But also leave that guy some bad feed back....... |
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Location: CT | You didn't say how much you paid, and I can't find the auction. If it was stupid cheap, you can use it as a (very nice sounding) beater. Any more than that and I'd probably return it. If the guy has good feedback he'll want to keep it that way, and there are nice Custom Legends out there for reasonable prices. |
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| Thanks for all your kind words, sympathies, and suggestions guys. Here\'s the listing for anyone who's curious. I'm waiting to hear from KK (JB is out till Monday) on whether he thinks the top will need to be replaced. If so, I'll bag any repairs, pursue a refund/claim/kneecap rearrangement on the scumbag seller, and find something else ( like this ). With another lowball bid, it might wind up cheaper than repairs. |
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Location: Lebanon, TN | " Q: Hi, it's really hard to see anything in the photo. Do you have more you can send? Is the top checked? How is the action? What condition are the...more Dec-04-07
A: The guitar is in perfect working condition. Fret, Bridge, Neck etc. are perfect." I think this give you all the mileage you need for a good claim from Paypal/Ebay. There is nothing "perfect" about that poor abused 1619. I'd hunt the money refund and move onto another adoptee. Glen is right, I suspect the restoration would be far and beyond reasonable value unless you already had emotional ties to the guitar like inheriting it from a relative etc. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I would try for a refund even if it ended up costing some shipping money. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | Originally posted by Slipkid:
I would try for a refund even if it ended up costing some shipping money. ...and then have his knee caps broken. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | both of them |
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Location: ms | The bad part about this is if the prick would have been honest he still could have got a fair price from somebody on this guitar. It looks like with just a bit of glue it will be a player, not a looker but a worker. |
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| This seller was completely dishonest from the start. Report him to ebay, return the guitar, cancel the payments...it's obvious from his 'one photo' and the Q and A's he was deliberately deceiving all the bidders. |
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Location: Chicago | On the upside: In the entire wood forest, nothing comes close to Old Legends and Balladeers in volume, richness, and that special acoutic "O" magic. So if that's what you seek, keep the old gal and send her off to the SPA. I was blown away at what JB and the gang did for my 1117 ('74) a few years ago. They even did things I had not noticed or asked for (no charge). I got back from Mother a brand new guitar with just a bit of the old battle scars to prove it was the same axe. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | File with Paypal...they give great protection to the buyer without requiring much if any proof. You will get your money back almost immediately.
Then let the seller pay you in advance to return the guitar. You should not be out a nickel for this kind of deception. |
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Location: Munich, Germany | Sorry to read, Serge.
One thing I see after reading the listing and answers of the seller: Honesty can be seen in different ways. He spoke of "perfect working condition", not perfect condition. Second, he did not answer the question for repairs/cracks. Might be a well trained PR-man.
So, you can't say he lied with words, he just held back the truth - and tricked you that way. But that's unworthy as well.
If it was me, I would send it back and get a refund. 450 USD is way too much for a guitar in that condition, and I wouldn't even think about sending it to the mothership. You would have rewarded the cheap seller then for his tricks and cheats.
I hope i made myself clear: Man, that was very hard to say in english, and after rereading my post twice it is still not perfectly said.
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| Again, many thanks to all of you for your concern and advice. I've decided to pursue a refund rather than trying to restore this once beautiful beast. Here's the text of the message I sent to the seller:
Gus - I received the guitar yesterday, and I must say that I am shocked and disappointed at the condition. This item is significantly not as described in the listing; to wit: "It has very few scratches" - there are numerous deep gouges that penetrate the finish all the way to the wood; "Fret, Bridge, Neck etc. are perfect." - the neck binding is separating & part of the peghead (a part of the neck) was broken off and haphazardly re-glued, both of which are hardly "perfect"; the rosette is unglued and missing large sections of abalone underneath.
The only resolution for this issue is for you to refund the price and accept return of this guitar. Failing that, I will file a dispute with both eBay and PayPal. I await your response.
Sergio Caballero We'll see what happens, and I'll update here. Meanwhile, SWMBO says to go for this one . Another member here has already contacted me and offered me a spare electronics package should I wind up winning it.
Again, thank you all. This is really a great community. |
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| Sergio,
Good decision, and excellent wording in your text. (But, I wonder if the seller is intelligent enough to understand it. :rolleyes: ) It's also very good advice to make him pay for returning it. He's already lost the sale and it will be his only chance to get his guitar back and avoid negative feedback. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | If your wife says to go for the other one, do what she says. That's one of the times when you have to respect the title of SWMBO.
I thought your response was appropriate. I agree with Kurt that the guy seemed to be very clever in his misleading responses. Hope it works out well for you. |
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Location: Munich, Germany | Serge, sorry for a quick OT, but while I meet Mark in this post:
Mark, did you get my weather forecast?
Kurt |
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Location: Central Florida | Wow, Serge, I'm so sorry this worked out the way it did. I was eagerly anticipating a glowing report from you (and I'm sure you were anticipating giving one) only to have it turn out like this. I feel for you bro. It's obvious your seller's objective was to deceive from the get-go, whether by comission or omission. Your wife's got the right idea: go for the other one and persue a refund on this one. For what the restoration would cost it's not worth it, IMO.
I'm bummed for ya... |
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Location: GA USA | That's the kind of She that you don't mind obeying. And she makes a mean burger. Keep her. |
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| Hey Jeff! Thanks for the sentiment, but now I'm more angry than bummed. Something will work out.
Best-case scenario is that numb-nuts seller refuses to refund, PayPal reimburses me anyway (which seems likely given some of the others' posts here) and goes after him, and I get to keep this one for my very first luthiery project. As an amateur wood-worker for many years I've always wanted to try my hand at luthiery.
I see your Black Beauty is still pretty reasonable, and it looks to be in really fine shape. Gawd, I hate those 9-day auctions tho! I'm pullin' for ya on this one, bro. |
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| Originally posted by Captain_Lovehandles:
That's the kind of She that you don't mind obeying. And she makes a mean burger. Keep her. :D I intend to, Jas! |
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Location: South of most, North of few | MMMMMMMmmmmm, burgers! |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | I disagree with seeking a full refund. As an owner of a factory re-furbished 1619 that started out a lot worse than this one, I am fairly certain that the top only needs to be re-finished. That should be about $400. Included in the price will be a new bridge and abalone rosette. Mine was sunburst, but I had the re-finish done in New England Burst and I couldn't be happier with the result.
The old 1619 CL's with the original truss rod necks are very special guitars. The other one that you're looking at has a Kamar bar neck. I'd keep this one but try to get a partial refund to compensate for the inaccurate description. The guitar is still worth $350-$400 as it is. Demand $100 back and if you get $50-$75, be happy.
It took the factory 3 1/2 months to fix mine, but that also included upgrading the electronics to the OP-Pro. That was two years ago and it cost $600. I've never regretted it and my 1619 is the one guitar that I would never sell.
I know I've posted these pics before but here they are again.
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Kurt, I just caught your sidetrack. Yes, I got your weather forcast. Thanks. |
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Location: GA USA | But, Mitch, to me the broken ear is a near fatal flaw. |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Originally posted by Captain_Lovehandles:
But, Mitch, to me the broken ear is a near fatal flaw. My 1619 had a large ding on the edge of the headstock where the finish was gone and some of the wood was also. The factory fixed it and it is visible only on very close inspection. I'm sure that the factory can fix that wing and make it look fine. |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, | g8r,
You could tell this person that you are going to send the case back with the guitar to him for a refund. But, instead of the guitar send him a gator from your neck of the woods and let the gator do the rest when he opens the case. ;) |
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Location: Chicago | War story: In 1978 I lent my Legend to a friend. At a party someone STEPPED on the headstock and cracked it clean off (1117 was on a bed). The Mothership fixed that with such astonishing woodcraft that I could hardly find the glue-seam. I agree with Mitch: the SAP option is not to be understimated.... |
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Location: SoCal | Mitch keeps posting those pics and I keep drooling on my keyboard. What a beautiful guitar..... |
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| Here's numb-nuts' reply to my request for a refund and return of the guitar:
The description on this guitar was in no way deceptive. I specifically quoted that it had scratches. This is why the reserve price was set so low ($75). There were 10 bids on this item and I gave everyone who asked any questions regarding the guitar feedback. The guitar (as I said in one comment) is in perfect working condition. I used it for studio work for many years as is.
With that being said, I will not issue any refunds. You are free to complain to ebay, however you will see that my selling history with them has no negatives, and bidders who have won have always had positive feedbacks about me. Guess it's off to PayPal dispute resolution next. Unfortunately, eBay won't let me file a dispute until 10 days after the close of the auction (next Tuesday). |
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Location: closely held secret | He didn't just say it had scratches. He said "It has very few scratches". Totally different intent, definitely deceptive. |
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| Let's see how this one works out. I just won the auction. It can't be any worse than the one I have now. I was still waffling about putting in a bid up to half an hour ago, and SWMBO (bless her heart) insisted I try for it. She says I can always try to get a carved TRC from Mother and fake it.
Right now I'm almost breaking even with the impending sale of my 1617 . I filed a claim with PayPal, so we'll see how that goes.
Wish me luck, guys! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Good luck! |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Good Luck.
The guy's a cr@phead. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Moreover, he lied. It is not perfect. Therefore, immediately freeze the payment to him, file a dispute, do not wait the 30 days since it's obvious it's a waste of time. |
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Location: South of most, North of few | It just amazes me how some of these people can live with themselves being as dishonest as that. That first one you got is a (pardon the abbreviation) POS, and you KNOW the guy knew it. Great you got the other one though. That one looks to be in nice shape from the pics. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | One more thing you may want to consider is having a guitar shop look it over and give you a written damage description. A professional opinion should go a long way as evidence. |
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Location: CA | He's a deceptive jerk. Keep on eBay about him and give him scathing bad feedback. |
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| g8r,
If that seller wants to maintain 100% feedback then he will have to 'put up or shut up' in order to keep you from exposing him to the ebay community. I would tell him exactly what you are going to do in advance, giving him fair warning. He's probably counting on you not challenging him. It will obvious from your photos and the seller's 'one' auction photo that he was being deceptive in his description. He's already lost the guitar AND the price of the sale.
Maybe he'll wake up and realize he ain't gonna win this one! |
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Location: Detroit Mi | Sergio5154 - I am Auchencrow: not a regular here, but I signed in just to tell you what an utter pig that Guscave is - both literally and figuratively. Anyone who would abuse an instrument that way should be incarcerated. He should be baned from eBay forever - and from the human race even! - BTW I am the same Auchencrow that bid against you for that guitar - I bid the same amount ($450) but just a little later, so you won and I lost. (I only hope you'll forgive me for losing!!!) . . . Anyway I am glad you could snatch that next 1619. I hope it is all you hoped it would be, and I hope everything works out for you with that slime ball liar too. |
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Location: Yakima, WA | Pathetic. Talk about no integrity.
Dave
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Adamas 1597
CL 1719-30CM |
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| Thanks for your continued support, guys. I'm waiting to hear from PayPal Dispute Resolution on this case (it's under their review process). There's no way I'm giving up on this one, and the seller will definitely get the worst feedback possible when this is all over.
The second 1619 arrived yesterday, and it's in very good shape (8 of 10). There's one small (about 3/4" long X 1/8" wide) piece of finish missing on the lower bass bout next to the binding right about where your arm rests when playing that looks like it's probably the result of a blow to the side. There's also a tiny piece of finish missing from the treble-side peghead wing, and a few minor finish blemishes. Frets show wear but still have life in them.
The seller specifically said he couldn't get the electronics to work, so I took it apart last night and found 2 wires had broken off, one from each jack. I'm about to go solder those back on right now, and I expect that'll fix the problem. Once I get her back together I'll take some pics and post a full report on a new thread. I'll wait until after the jam & send her to the spa for beautification. This one's gonna be my "never-get-rid-of" guitar. |
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| auchencrow - sorry man, I meant to say "Welcome to the Board!" in my last post. Thanks for the good wishes & stick around, this is a great group of people here. You still looking for a 1619-1? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Glad you got one you're happy with, g8r. Maybe you'll end up with two. |
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Location: Detroit Mi | g8r - Thank you. (I feel better now). Actually I just stumbled on a Folklore which was a real deal, and though it is a little spartan compared to a 1619, it is suitable for me. - So I won't be in the market for another guitar real soon - I'll just be looking and ogling any Ovations that I see on eBay, or here - and I will likely log in here again from time to time. . . Like you said , this is a nice e-community. Happy Holidays to all! |
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Location: Central Florida | Moved post to "Second 1619 Arrival" thread. |
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| PayPal determination: Item is Significantly Not As Described.
I guess they put the squeeze on the seller, because he has agreed to a full refund (incl. shipping) when I return the guitar.
Sometimes the system does work! :D |
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Location: South of most, North of few | WHOOO HOOO!! :D Glad to get an update on this one, and a positive one too! I was going to ask you about it, but I figured it would come out sooner or later. |
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Location: big island | in my best popeye voice: "well blow me down!!"
that's great news g8r. |
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| Good for you! Paypal called his bluff and he had to shut up. I bet this guy was sweatin' bullets that ebay would expose him... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | You mean you have to return the guitar "first" and then depend on this scumbag to refund your money and the shipping?
I would be doubly careful with this one! |
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| Originally posted by stephent28:
You mean you have to return the guitar "first" and then depend on this scumbag to refund your money and the shipping? Not quite. PayPal specifically states that they will credit my account for the full amount as soon as I provide them with a tracking number showing that I've shipped the guitar back to the address they provided. I'm assuming that they will then go after the seller if he doesn't put that money into his PayPAl account.
But then again, everybody knows what happens when you ASS-U-ME something :eek: |
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Location: Tennessee | Score one for PayPal. Neer had to go to them with a dispute, but it's nice to know they really do provide protection for the buyer. |
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Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Simpsonville, SC | ....good for ya g8r...chaulk one up for tha good guy... |
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1619 Arrived Today - Caveat Emptor!