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Location: Canada | I feel like the action of my 6756lx feels a little high, but I don't really have any reference of what "good" action on a 12-string is supposed to be. Occasionally I play her pretty hard and there's not much buzzing, so I guess it's high enough, but if I play around some of the higher bars it's not as easy as I think it could be. I don't have any precise measuring device, but am wondering if there are some easily obtainable reference measures (e.g. number of nickels) to fit between the strings and 12th fret to indicate a "good action"? Thanks. |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Two! (or less)
I was just checking my Adamas to see.
Mine is just at two pennies, with easy clearance... Two nickles will stay in place.
BUT! I have my 1685 tuned-down to "D Standard" because it spends a lot of time in the case.
(If I am gonna take-it-out I will tune it to Standard)
Since yours is an LX you can easily reset the neck if necessary.
(always the optimist  )
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Allen wrenches? |
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Posts: 848
Location: Canada | Thanks, OMA. We don't have pennies/cents in Canada anymore, how about dimes? And should there be a difference between high and low E-string action?
Edited by d'ovation 2014-01-09 10:52 AM
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Posts: 13986
Location: Upper Left USA | Page 14
http://www.ovationguitars.com/files/OVmanual.pdf
A 12 string is the same as a six, just has six more strings... |
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Location: Canada | Thanks, I think I may even have a hardcopy around somewhere. So according to the manual "Standard action" for all Ovation steel string guitars is 3/32" at the bass E string and 2/32" (=1/16?) at the treble E string (measured as the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the 12th fret).
My issue is how do I measure these distances? Is there something that has these odd thicknesses (about 2.4mm and 1.6mm) that could be inserted as a gauge?
Just checked - Canadian Quarter is 1.58mm so that should do for the treble.
Edited by d'ovation 2014-01-09 12:38 PM
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Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio |
Indeed.
My '76 Pacemaker is set at 3/32", just like my 6 string Balladeer. It plays better than any 12 I've ever played and sounds like a harpsichord. It's glorious. Barre chords and chords up the neck play with minimum effort.
All I did was take all the shims out from under the saddle, and it was ready to go. |
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Posts: 486
Location: Suisun City, Ca | merlin666 - 2014-01-09 12:30 PM Thanks, I think I may even have a hardcopy around somewhere. So according to the manual "Standard action" for all Ovation steel string guitars is 3/32" at the bass E string and 2/32" (=1/16?) at the treble E string (measured as the distance between the bottom of the string and the top of the 12th fret). My issue is how do I measure these distances? Is there something that has these odd thicknesses (about 2.4mm and 1.6mm) that could be inserted as a gauge? Just checked - Canadian Quarter is 1.58mm so that should do for the treble. How about (2 or 3) .80 picks? |
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Posts: 848
Location: Canada | I did the quarter test and it looks like there is a bit os space at the treble strings, and quite a bit at the bass strings. So I guess if wanted to lower it I would need to disassemble the saddle next time I change strings and find those shims. Is that a fairly straightforward process, and how many shims are there that may need to be removed for a small adjustment? |
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Location: Northern Minnesota | d'ovation -- I assume you have one guitar for general purpose work and you are trying to make it perfect for every song.. it isn't going to happen! My opinion is that you may wish to be careful about making your strings too low of action. What I have found, is that on my 12 string guitars, the 7/64" at low-E (or, roughly 3/32" Ovation standard action is about right. It isn't perfect, but it is darn close. I have gone lower, but when I switch from a ballad song to something like 'Rocky Top', you need a bit of space to not produce fret buzz from strings being pushed to their vibrating limits.. again, in my opinion, the Ovation is not a hollow-body electric jazz guitar with 'touch action' -- it still is an acoustic piece with electronics that has wound strings, not flat wound ribbon strings like a pure electric, that don't take much to produce a sound from their pick-ups instead of acoustically... I haven't started setting up my guitars per song, like the pros, but if you are looking for that perfect set-up -- the Ovation standard is as good as it gets for general work. |
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Location: Canada | Factory level action would be great, but I think mine is considerably higher than that. What could cause a change of action - neck looks very straight. |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Assuming you've pulled all the shims out, if the action is too high and the neck is straight, the next port of call is a neck reset (i.e. the neck needs to come right off and have some wood shaved off the heel (not for the fainthearted). Some people do it by adding a shim to the heel, but that could affect the intonation by changing the scale length slightly (if the intonation is not perfect now, there's a 50% chance this could improve it).
I had a member of the local OFC do a neck reset for my 12 string and he did a brilliant job, but you'd want to find someone a tad closer. |
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Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | Those number translate to about .060" and .090" so you could also use automotive feeler gauges (my preferred method). Or alternatively you can use a micrometer to find small pieces of metal in these thicknesses. |
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Location: Utah | The shims are little plastic pieces which, at least in my guitars, are a tan color. There are 2 thicknesses from the factory but you may only have one size. If you pull a shim out it will lower the action at the 12th fret by half the thickness of the shim. If you take out too many, the saddle will be very low in the slot and you might have either strings buzzing on the wood of the bridge or you can have too little of an angle as the string goes over the saddle resulting in poor tone.
You can try pulling one shim out and then seeing how it works for you. My suggestion is that you loosen the strings and see if you can pull out a shim without taking the strings all the way off. Then tune it back up and see how you like it. Alternatively you could pull a shim at the next string change, but if you don't like it then you are stuck possibly damaging brand new strings as you mess around trying to get the shim back in. |
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Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | I myself, however, have never been able to remove a shim without removing the strings. Just curious whether anyone here has accomplished that feat? |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | It is possible, but way easier if you remove the stings from the tuning pegs, and pull the strings back away from the saddle, without removing them from the bridge. |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | I wait until I'm changing strings to remove a shim. Let's face it, how many of your guitars need new strings right now anyway? |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Ok, you need to get a good measuring scale. (I still have the Brown and Sharp scale I used when I worked at Ovation.) You measure at the 12th fret, from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string.
And it is much better NOT to remove the strings when you are adding or removing a shim. Every time you loosen and then tighten the strings you are making a weak spot where they wind onto the peg. That means if you have to remove a second shim, or add one back, you chance breaking one of the new strings you just put on.
Instead, loosen, I mean REALLY loosen the strings that are already on the guitar. You should be able to lift them off the saddle with a finger placed underneath the strings. You want them loose enough that there is still enough space to lift the saddle. Now, on the electric acoustics, the end pins at each end of the saddle come right out. Remove the one on the treble side. now lift the saddle on that side. If you can't get a grip on it you can pry it up using one of those tiny flathead "Precision" screwdrivers. Now, take a pair of tweezers and get under there and grab a shim.
If you need to put one back in, you may need to remove the endpin on the bass side too so you can lift it enough to get the shim far enough across. If you don't, you won't be able to get the treble endpin back in.
Now, tighten the strings back up to pitch and check for buzzes. (Watch out for breaking strings!) Once you have it where you want it, NOW put some new strings on. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Here's a video. This guy completely removes the saddle. I usually don't. He uses a toothpick on the first one, but he uses the screwdriver on the second one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JepfhqFXB-8 |
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Location: Canada | Thank you for all the great advice, I will set some time aside next weekend and have a go at it. |
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Posts: 848
Location: Canada | I have to admit that is am a bad slacker when it comes to guitar maintenance and I have procrastinated all these months to address the issue. The high action has been bugging me again recently, so I felt motivated to remove some shims this long weekend. However, when I reviewed the specs again I also checked the saddle height and it is LESS than the minimum distance of 2/32 and considerably lower than action of the treble string (as measured with a Canadian Quarter). I assume that shims may already have been removed and therefore did not go any further and I am concerned that there is an issue with this guitar. It is still playable, though I have difficulty with getting clear notes at the high bars. I think that it's still under warranty as I bought it in Feb 2013 from a dealer that supposedly registered it with N.H. So I am wondering if this is something that might be able to fix myself e.g. by adjusting the tension rods, or if this is something that needs a visit to a dealer and see where it goes? |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | It might be that the nut is too high. Someone had some guidance for measuring that, maybe a search through the site would find it. If it is too high, take it out and sand it down - be careful though, once you sand too much off, you can't put it back on again. |
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Location: Utah | A guitar that new should not have a neck angle problem.
If you have a straight edge of the right length, put it on the neck and see where it touches the bridge. It should be at the top of the wood of the bridge, approximately. You can try to eyeball this.
A proper setup has 3 basic areas: Nut, truss rod (mid part of the neck), and saddle. Though the math is all fine, how it feels and sounds is the real test of a setup.
First, capo between the 2nd and 3rd fret. Now put on one (or in my case two) pair of reading glasses and eyeball the distance between the top of the first fret and the bottom of the strings. There should be a very tiny gap there. On a 6 string it is nearly nothing, but on a 12 you probably want just a skosh more. Think of the nut as Fret Zero. The rest of your frets are all the same height, so the nut should also be that height. In reality it needs to be a very tiny bit higher because the string vibrates more when open than when fretted (because the string is longer). Excess height at the nut raises the action and it also causes intonation problems in the lower frets.
Next, adjust the truss rod. Capo at the first fret and at the 13th or 14th. Now look at the clearance between the bottom of the string and the top of the 6th or 7th fret. This should also be a small amount, but more than at the 1st fret. Let's call it about a dime, + or minus. If it is much more, it needs to be reduced by tightening the truss rod. Start with 1/4 turn. You should probably loosen the strings before tightening it, then tune it back up. No more than about 1/2 turn adjustment before waiting another day to let the neck settle in.
Once you get those parts adjusted, the saddle can be adjusted. The saddle controls the height in the upper frets, assuming the nut and truss rod are adjusted correctly. You can lower the saddle until notes start getting buzzy or pinched off sounding.
Buzzy open strings are a nut cut too low. Especially if the buzzing stops when fretted at the 1st or 2nd fret. Difficult playing in the first few frets, and intonation problems playing chords in the lower frets are a sign of a too tall nut.
Buzzy notes in the mid frets, 4th to 10th, are a truss rod too tight.
Buzzy or pinched notes in the upper frets, 10th and above, are a saddle too low.
High action in the mid to upper frets can be either truss rod and/or saddle out of adjustment, possible exacerbated by a too tall nut.
Edited by FlySig 2014-10-13 10:22 AM
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Location: Canada | I am revisiting this as I have not done anything to address the issue as I have bought a few new instruments in the meantime that got my attention, but each time I play it it's still bothering me. I got a precision rule and it shows a low E action of about 7/32, and I'm wondering if high humidity could also be causing this. Last year I bought some hygrometers and in the summer we were at about 65% ambient. Now in the winter I use a soundhole oasis and the in case hygrometer consistently show 70% (with 35% in the room), though another guitar is at a perfect 50% humidity. I guess the Ovation case seals quite tightly.
Also, about a year ago I got a return number from John Budny for a neck reset, but obviously didn't get around to shipping it. So now that I monitored humidity for a few months, I'm wondering if I left it out of the case in the dry air if that might make a difference? |
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12 string action