The definitive Preacher thread?
gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-17 5:17 PM (#475068)
Subject: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Okay, a while ago I decided that I want an Ovation solid body electric so I went shopping and came across a guy who claims to have a 1281 with three humbuckers, no "Preacher" on the pick guard and split coils. Is this a legit Preacher, a custom order or a non-factory mod? Is there any way to tell from the serial number? I'm hoping this thread will prompt the real Ovation historians to chime in and that is why I tentatively gave the thread the 'definitive' moniker. If the persons who actually built these guitars respond, it may very well live up to the subject title.
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-17 8:24 PM (#475077 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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There are some Viper IIIs around, but I've never seen a picture of anything like a Preacher III.

Do you have a picture of it? Are the pickups the typical Preacher/Breadwinner/Deacon minis or are they like the humbuckers you see on most guitars? If they're average size Gibson-style humbuckers, it's probably modified.

Mr. Ovation had/has some UKII and Viper prototypes with unusual pickup configurations. You should look through the page of stuff he had collected: http://www.baronaudio.com/collection/inventory.asp

The Preacher seems to be the least-loved of the older solidbodies. Doesn't have the shape or active electronics of the Deacon/Breadwinner, the bite of the Viper, or the unique construction and hotter pickups of the UKII.

-Steve W.



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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-17 8:59 PM (#475079 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Neither have I, all the references I've been pointed to so far make this sound fishy but on the other hand, I know a Preacher with UKII electronics that was a legit purchase new. I'm still talking with the guy about it but he says they are the mini-humbuckers with the 12 pole pieces. It has one 3-way switch and three mini (dual position?) switches. How accurate was the Ovation record keeping on serial numbers? Is there a reliable resource to identify how these guitars shipped?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-17 11:33 PM (#475082 - in reply to #475079)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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"...but on the other hand, I know a Preacher with UKII electronics that was a legit purchase new."

I'm doubtful, maybe it was a special order or a prototype. Or doesn't exist.

"he says they are the mini-humbuckers with the 12 pole pieces. It has one 3-way switch and three mini (dual position?) switches."

Need to see pictures. Could be Preacher Deluxe pickups, but no way to guess without seeing it. If I were buying it, I'd want to see the routing under the pickguard too.

"How accurate was the Ovation record keeping on serial numbers? Is there a reliable resource to identify how these guitars shipped?"

My impression is that there are no records available for specific serial numbers on the solidbodies- or most other Ovations. Maybe someone here knows different.
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-17 11:39 PM (#475084 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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There was this urelite Viper III that went from Mr. O to Russia- don't know where it is now: http://ovationfanclub.com/megabbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=33190
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-18 6:33 AM (#475086 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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I'm doubtful, maybe it was a special order or a prototype. Or doesn't exist.
There is nothing to doubt, I've held the guitar in my hands and played it in the 80's, all the passive parts were the same save the humbuckers which remained the minis and I remember being quite impressed with the versatility of its sounds. I sent my prospect the Viper III link above and he confirmed those are the pickups and layout on the Preacher. He also claims the neck is definitely wood. This invokes so many questions:
Are the urelite necks favored and if yes, why so?
On an estimated percentage basis, how many Viper III sold with humbuckers?
Was that Viper III a custom order or a prototype?
How do you identify an Ovation prototype?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-18 10:26 AM (#475097 - in reply to #475086)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Get some pictures of the Preacher III so you and we can see it. Ask the seller to remove the pickguard too.

Few if any production Vipers had the mini humbuckers or urelite bodies. The one in the other thread was an experiment/prototype.

I think you identify an Ovation solidbody prototype by a set of features that appear factory installed and don't exist on any other guitar.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2013-09-18 11:18 AM (#475101 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: Boise, Idaho
The necks were wood even on the urelite bodied UKIIs.
Since the Viper III stayed in the Kaman (Ovation) family until Miles bought it from Bill, it may not fit the usual definition of a custom order or prototype, or you might call it either. They built a few "one offs".
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-18 12:43 PM (#475104 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Mark in Boise
Nice to see you here. The urelite body having a wood neck is strange, how often was this done at the factory given the emphasis on the neck with the 'space age plastics'? If this IS a one off, what markings would it have? I'm assuming that it wouldn't be a prototype unless it didn't have a production serial number but I suppose a marked body could have been pulled off the line to try something. I know the Ovation factory was sort of casual but how likely is the scenario above? Where did Ovation mark the Preachers? I'm hoping to get this axe for under a K, is that an irrational number?

numbfingers
Additional information and more questions: the neck has the standard 1281 dots and all the pickups are passive so it's likely not a deluxe custom since those had 'active' electronics. I've been pressing this guy with a lot of questions and he is sensing that my interest is more than casual. I understand that we're working blind here but I don't want to push him away from a sale I can afford either. He estimates the width of the pickup routing at 1.25" which implies that standard humbuckers wouldn't fit.
Were the rail pickups on the UK II too wide to fit in this body?
What was the original spec for the Preacher pickup cavity?
How did Ovation route the Preacher bodies?
Was there any difference between the Preacher deluxe and standard humbuckers not attributable to the FET circuit?
Does anyone have the schematic to what is presumably an FET gain stage on Preacher Deluxe?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-18 1:27 PM (#475106 - in reply to #475104)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: NW Washington State
You'll have to have pictures to make sense of the Preacher. Or if it's cheap, like $250-$400, just buy it.

Breadwinner/Deacon/Preacher/Viper/UKII "mini" pickups are the same size. I've never had a passive Preacher so don't know if the 12-pole pickups are wound the same.

The preamp is OK if you have a good working one. They are a pain to rebuild and it's not worth trying to duplicate the original. Do a search here or on Google for BRUDEV BREADWINNER PREAMP.

Same goes for the UKII, there's lots of info in archived threads here.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2013-09-18 1:28 PM (#475107 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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You're asking questions that are way over my head. Most of what I know about Ovations, I learned on this board and it sounds like you've done lots of research already. All I can respond to is your comment that the urelite body and wood neck is strange. Ovation did a lot of experimenting to try to build better guitars. Some of them didn't go into production and some went into production and didn't sell well. All the electric guitars sort of fit in those two categories. The emphasis on space age plastics was marketing. Everything was marketed as space age in the space age. Matrix guitars had urelite necks, but were not accepted by the market. I would guess that Ovation decided not to try that with the UKII and used the wood necks.
Anyway, that doesn't relate to the guitar you're looking at. If it's a one-off, how would anyone other than the current owner know what markings it had? I don't think Ovation was any different from any other company in keeping records from back then.
Price is totally up to you and the seller. Just don't expect your value to be "market value." The rarer the item, the smaller the market.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-18 6:20 PM (#475129 - in reply to #475107)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Sorry, double post merged.

Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-18 6:40 PM
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-18 6:25 PM (#475130 - in reply to #475107)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Mark in Boise
Here is a vintage Ovation catalog that describes the passive electronics of the UK II. I know Mr. Ovation is probably still busy metering out disciplinary actions but who would be the most the reliable sources for answering the questions above? I'm thinking a PM to them might get them to chime in or possibly just tell me outright what I need to know.

numbfingers
How many leads do the Preacher Deluxe humbuckers have? If the pickups on the UK II were no larger than the ones on the Preacher why wouldn't it be entirely possible to order a Preacher with them?

Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-18 6:39 PM
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-19 9:54 AM (#475153 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I'm out of town again, but will check back later to read and answer all the questions in detail.

One thing now though... They made quite a few "one-off" guitars that mostly involved swapping pickups, bridges and paint schemes. As far as identification, a true prototype has a X001 type serial number. These were true prototypes in that they were usually one of ten First guitars assembled of a run used for display, photo's and NAMM. Other one-offs's were just that and not parked with anything special. Someone (factory employee or customer) would order a guitar or several with some special color and pickup configuration. Or some tech saw some parts laying on the counter and said... hmmm I wonder if this will work.

Now there were, and possible still are some one-off's that weren't built at the factory. People bought parts and built guitars... I bought most of them from all over, disassembled them, and sold them for parts. I may have missed a couple.

more later...
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-19 12:21 PM (#475165 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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What Miles has said is the most correct. I have found that the term "Definitive" should not be used in the same sentance as "Ovation records" or "Serial Number definitions".

Let's just say that the systems used have been very organic... they'll drive you nuts if you seek certianty.

And for the record... I only only butcher or rearrange parts on the O's I have touched if they came to me incomplete or broken.

Preachers have some lovely Mahogany Bodies and Necks but I have always preferred the Viper pickups.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-19 3:12 PM (#475172 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Now that I have the attention of two of the most knowledgeable on the subject, I feel much more confident I will get my answers.

MWoody
Welcome to my thread. The brochures describe both the Viper and Preacher pickups as having 10k turns around Al-Nico magnets:
Did they use the same coil profile, wire and magnets and if so, does that indicate the humbuckers had twice the total wire?
How many lead wires were on the Preacher humbuckers? How many on the UK-II?
Would the UK-II humbuckers fit in the Preacher without modifications to the cavity or pickguard?
I have heard the Viper pickups considered relatively 'hot' for their day, can you name a common pickup that sounded very much like it?
Ditto for the Preacher pickups.

I've asked a lot of questions in this thread so please review them and answer as many as you can to the best of your knowledge and Miles should be able to fill in whatever you couldn't cover when he gets back.
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-19 4:50 PM (#475176 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Location: Upper Left USA

G,

You've got issues, unintentional or with a purpose.

Either way their yours and not mine.

Because I'm feeling generous...



Edited by MWoody 2013-09-19 4:51 PM
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stonebobbo
Posted 2013-09-19 5:01 PM (#475179 - in reply to #475172)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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gmaslin - 2013-09-19 1:12 PM Now that I have the attention of two of the most knowledgeable on the subject, I feel much more confident I will get my answers. .

 

Wow ... do you have to work hard at being an unappreciative ***, or does it just come naturally to you?

 

Hey numbfingers, I appreciated all of your answers and help you tried to provide. I though it was very informative.  Thanks.

 

 

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Mark in Boise
Posted 2013-09-19 5:03 PM (#475180 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: Boise, Idaho
Step back and read your posts full of questions and try to consider that we are Ovation Fans, not paid researchers. I'm starting to think this is some sort of test in which the answers just lead to more questions and the alleged purpose of obtaining information about a guitar is just a pretext. No need to respond, that's just my feeling.
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Puppetman
Posted 2013-09-19 5:51 PM (#475183 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: Florence,SC
Makes me glad I didn't jump in and share earlier.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-19 7:11 PM (#475186 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Puppetman
Please note my experience with other members here that 'jump in' not to help or enlighten but presumably, to read how clever they think they are.

Mark in Boise
This is not a test but a real life decision.

numbfingers
If I didn't thank you before for your help, it was an oversight but when you suggested 'there's lots of info in archived threads here', I spent several fruitless hours searching and that may have tainted my posts with an unfortunate tone. If you were truly offended, please accept my apologies. If you were not, then please say so and quiet the instigators.

MWoody
That chart answers at least half of my questions and I'm truly thankful you posted it but some remain:
The turns do not clearly specify if the number represents the winds around each bobbin (ie: 20K total) or they're shared (ie: 5k each) on the humbuckers. Did both Preacher part number pairs have 4 leads as indicated in the chart or am I interpreting it incorrectly? The part numbers in the Preacher column indicate a difference, does anyone know what was changed?

Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-19 7:13 PM
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-19 9:54 PM (#475188 - in reply to #475179)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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stonebobbo - 2013-09-19 5:01 PM
Hey numbfingers, I appreciated all of your answers and help you tried to provide. I though it was very informative.  Thanks.


You're welcome, Bobbo, I'm always happy to answer your questions since you're a long-time contributor to the forum.

-Steve W.
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-19 10:27 PM (#475189 - in reply to #475186)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: NW Washington State
What are the minimum number of leads required for a a humbucking guitar pickup that supports series/parallel operation? How many leads do today's popular aftermarket pickups have? Does the ground wire count as a lead?

The DC resistance of a Deacon mini-humbucker from my parts box is approximately 20K. It is not possible to measure the individual coils on this pickup. The chart above indicates that 43 gauge wire is used. Will 5,000 or 10,000 turns fit on each small mini-humbucker bobbin? The number of turns and the DC resistance of Gibson-style pickups wound with 43 AWG might provide a clue.

When were the first humbuckers with unbalanced coils (intentionally) manufactured? Is it likely Ovation employed this method?
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-20 2:19 AM (#475192 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


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"A 1281 with three humbuckers, no "Preacher" on the pick guard and split coils. Is this a legit Preacher custom order or a non-factory mod?"
It was not a production model in this configuration.  How it came about will only be known by the person that ordered and/or built it. 

Is there any way to tell from the serial number?
no except for a serial of x001 to x010 -ish means it was a prototype for the model.

If the persons who actually built these guitars respond, it may very well live up to the subject title.
Agreed, but that is not likely to happen. 

How accurate was the Ovation record keeping on serial numbers?
To my knowledge they only kept track of "range" of serial numbers per year as outlined in the FAQ and there are contridictions to that.  The only other records would really be if someone mailed in the warrantee card.
 

Is there a reliable resource to identify how these guitars shipped?
In a box ??   Not sure what you mean in this question.  Probably changed over the years based on rates and service.

Are the urelite necks favored and if yes, why so? 
Never saw a Urelite neck, ever. 

On an estimated percentage basis, how many Viper III sold with humbuckers? 
The average would likely be 0%.  To my knowledge, maybe two guitars, but probably a couple more... but then you asked "sold" and I'm not sure they were actually sold.  They were built.

 Was that Viper III a custom order or a prototype? 

It was a Viper III and legit model 

 How do you identify an Ovation prototype?

The serial number of a true prototype is in the format of x001 and only ranged as far as we know to x010. 

The urelite body having a wood neck is strange, how often was this done.
The only Urelite body in production was the UKII.  There were a few, like maybe 3 - 5 Urelite Viper bodies made as experiments and configured.  To my knowledge, there never was a Urelite neck. 

If this IS a one off, what markings would it have?
It would likely have a standard serial number on the neck plate with no reference that it was a one-off.  Now having said that, we have seen scribbles under the bridge or in the pickup cavity that relate to color, or maybe who was making it or a date or something, but they was no standard.  More likely any notes or other markings on the inside only happened if the tech was working on more than one guitar at a time that was similar and he wanted to keep them straight with never an idea that anyone would actually see the info in the future. 

I'm assuming that it wouldn't be a prototype unless it didn't have a production serial number
Do I need to explain what happens when you assume?  Seriously.. ANYTHING is possible. 

Where did Ovation mark the Preachers?
If you mean serial number, same place as all the USA solid bodies... the neck plate. 

I'm hoping to get this axe for under a K, is that an irrational number? 
Some might say paying more than 1K is irrational.  Read the "how much is my guitar worth" in the FAQ.   

the neck has the standard 1281 dots and all the pickups are passive so it's likely not a deluxe custom since those had 'active' electronics.
Actually it's likely not a Deluxe because there was no such thing.  There was a "Preacher Deluxe" which was NOT a "deluxe" model of a Preacher... it was a model called Preacher Deluxe that shared very little with Preacher other than basic body silouette.

Were the rail pickups on the UK II too wide to fit in this body?
All of the standard solid body USA pickups (single, humbucker and UKII Rails) are interchangeable with some minor exceptions.  The original Toroidal Breadwinner pickups obviuosly won't fit.  It's worth mentioning that the Viper III (the real Viper III) middle single coil pickup was wound different.  Still all the same size... just thought that worth mentioning.

What was the original spec for the Preacher pickup cavity? 
Big enough for a pickup to fit?  I guess I don't understand the question. 

How did Ovation route the Preacher bodies? 
With a router?  Again, maybe I don't understand the question. 

Was there any difference between the Preacher deluxe and standard humbuckers not attributable to the FET circuit? 
No 

Does anyone have the schematic to what is presumably an FET gain stage on Preacher Deluxe?
I'm sure someone does.  I may someplace.  Keep in mind the pre-amp was NOT a boost.  It was indeed a pre-amp that focused more on tone.  The early ones actually had the "0" in the middle of the tone with + and - numbers or Treble bass I think as well on some,  but later they just used 0-10 markings.  Not really sure if Preacher Deluxe ever had the zero in the middle tone controls, but the Deacon and Breadwinner did.  The pre-amp worked the same regardless... counter clockwise boosted bass, and clockwise boosts treble.  Unlike a standard tone control that just cuts the highs to make bass.  The volume side did go through an FET, but it didn't boost.  Just kept it clean, in theory.

How many leads do the Preacher Deluxe humbuckers have?
If memory serves, I have seen two, four, and five with the latter just being a soldered ground, the four being combined outside the pickup 
casing and the two where the two coils were bridged under the pickup casing.  Bottom line, a humbucker has 4 leads regardless if you see them or not.

If the pickups on the UK II were no larger than the ones on the Preacher why wouldn't it be entirely possible to order a Preacher with them?
8I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. 

The brochures describe both the Viper and Preacher pickups as having 10k turns around Al-Nico magnets:
True 

Did they use the same coil profile, wire and magnets and if so, does that indicate the humbuckers had twice the total wire?
I have no idea (or could I even care).  Ovation was very tight lipped about how the magnets were wound.  My guess is that a 10K turn humbucker has two singles wrapped 5K each... but I have no basis for that other than if marketing heard there were two coils each wrapped with 10K turns they would be shouting it from the rooftops as such.

How many lead wires were on the Preacher humbuckers? How many on the UK-II? 
In the true sence, there must have been 4 as they are humbuckers, but....  as mentioned above.. how many we see outside the casing may differ, but the electronics don't change. 

Would the UK-II humbuckers fit in the Preacher without modifications to the cavity or pickguard? 
yep 

I have heard the Viper pickups considered relatively 'hot' for their day, can you name a common pickup that sounded very much like it? 
To my knowledge there wasn't a similar one.  By messing with the selector, volume and and tone, and of course the amp the Viper can sound like a tele, strat or Les Paul....  only some might say better than any of them.  It's subjective.  But I played pretty heavy rock with a Viper and while I ultimately replaced the bridge pickup with a humbucker, the stock pickup did a pretty good job.  In fact it's the only single coil pickup that gets along EXTREMLY well with Rockman effects that were designed for Humbuckers due to the high gain stages.

Ditto for the Preacher pickups. 
I never liked the Preacher Pickups without the pre-amp...eg.. My Preacher has Viper pickups in it.  That being said, they have a unique tone.  I liked the Preacher Deluxe and Deacon sounds, but found them limited in range for me.  They did what they did... sounded great and all that... but unlike the Viper pickups than can take on different personalities, the Preacher style humbuckers always sounded like they sounded.  A good sound....  better with the pre-amp I think due to added range... but overall... their own sound.


So I think I have answered allof you questions, so here are mine..

Why so many questions?  As you stated, "it's a a 1281 with three humbuckers, no "Preacher" on the pick guard and split coils."  Or in other words an Ovation Preacher style guitar with no "Preacher" on the pick guard and split coils."  

Based on your comments it's probably not a prototype and not a production model obviously so it's either a custom order or something someone put together with spare parts either at the factory or not.  You will never know unless they have some documentation with it, or as you mentioned earlier, someone remembers building it.  That's it..  It is what it is.

As far as what to pay for it... I guess that depends on how much you like it.  I refer you to the "How much is it worth" section of the FAQ.  

 

 

 

 

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 8:28 AM (#475196 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 79

Mr. Ovation
I am floored by the attention and effort you have put forward in this reply. You have my utmost respect and kind regard for it. My best answer to you is questions are the seed of knowledge and knowledge thwarts misery. How this guitar came about will dictate what I will pay for it so I am doing my best due diligence to investigate this. If the 10K winds were split 5k per bobbin and the other coil parts were the same, that would explain the more polite/sterile nature of the preacher pickups. Knowing the coil details aids in finding the optimal setup for the sound desired. Almost everything is clear to me now but the following tidbits remain for discussion:

If there were no difference between the Preacher pickups why were two part number pairs assigned (100/200B and 110/210C)?
Your marketing slant logic is plausible, should we assume the UKII humbuckers were also wound 5k per magnet rail?
The number of pickup leads that are accessible dictates the wiring configuration and grounding scheme options as well as the sonic result; does anyone here believe this information has no significance?
When I asked how the pickup cavity was routed, I was trying to gain insight into the tools and bits used. This information will help determine if the third cavity on the Preacher was done at the factory. The same goes for the cavity dimensions and its variance. Anyone working there at the time should know this. I suppose anyone with detailed pictures of the Viper III under the pickguard would be helpful too.
When I asked about how the guitars shipped, I was trying to determine the accessories like tools, keys, cables, manuals, etc. Anyone with a scanned packing list document or something similar could resolve this.

numbfingers
What are the minimum number of leads required for a a humbucking guitar pickup that supports series/parallel operation? How many leads do today's popular aftermarket pickups have? Does the ground wire count as a lead?
Three with a common ground, but the standard Preacher did not support series/parallel operation according to the brochure above. Most humbuckers today have four wires out and yes, I count the ground as a lead.
The DC resistance of a Deacon mini-humbucker from my parts box is approximately 20K. It is not possible to measure the individual coils on this pickup. The chart above indicates that 43 gauge wire is used. Will 5,000 or 10,000 turns fit on each small mini-humbucker bobbin? The number of turns and the DC resistance of Gibson-style pickups wound with 43 AWG might provide a clue.
This is the Rosetta Stone, thank you! Just additional curiosity, is the blade on the UKII sufficiently thin to accommodate 10K per side or was the same frame used on all the pickups Deacon through UKII? Did the bobbin height change through this period?
When were the first humbuckers with unbalanced coils (intentionally) manufactured? Is it likely Ovation employed this method?
Ah, the Westone patent? Boy that IS close, the technology could have been licensed or copied but if the bobbin didn't change from the Deacon...what is the real story there?
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-20 9:41 AM (#475199 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 13951

Location: Upper Left USA

You could learn from the Pacific Rim Manufacturers and buy a few guitars, disassemble them, reverse engineer and provide us with the answers.

Have you contacted the builders at Eastwood? They've made some interesting clones.

Here's one of my frustrations. The history/geneology of Fender and Gibson solidbody guitars and their hardware is mapped out in extreme detail. There is a shrine somewhere, aka Leo Fender's desk the way it was when he departed. There are Guitar enthusiasts fighting over pickups made by Seth Lover on a Wednesday sounding better than one he wrapped on a Monday...

Those people have issues...

The detail is there because of the populist atmosphere surrounding Gibson and Fender guitars.

I am envious.

There was an incredible amount of innovation and five times the technological advancement taking place at Ovation. They made a better Peavey than Peavey...

Gibson couldn't even make a White guitar that looked White on TV.

Please remember us in your footnotes when you publish.



Edited by MWoody 2013-09-20 9:53 AM
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 10:40 AM (#475206 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

MWoody
LOL, you have a remarkable acumen for the way i think. Yes, I agree, undue fanfare and sycophancy abounds but that is the product of an ignorant populace and a good psychological understanding of that market. What I like about Ovation is the no nonsense culture of its engineering and some of the people posting on this site. When I was learning how to play, there were only a handful of good female guitarists and only three bands I knew of where females were prominent (Heart, Vixxen and The Runaways) but my ear was always better than average and I remember the gear head type of guitarists favoring O's. I was friends with many of them and played some of their instruments (...ahem...). Why Ovation solid bodies never attained the cult status of their peers is something I am researching. If you have a name at Eastwood, PM it to me.

numbfingers
My calculation is that the UKII pickup had between 8,000-9,500 feet of wire! Depending on the insulation used, the tightness of the wind and the height of the bobbin, am I wrong to assume 2x10K winds are possible?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 12:18 PM (#475211 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
If you Google HUMBUCKER 43 TURNS you'll get an idea of what's possible.

If I were buying my first solidbody, I'd get the Viper 'zilla is offering in the for sale section.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-20 1:59 PM (#475219 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

If there were no difference between the Preacher pickups why were two part number pairs assigned (100/200B and 110/210C)? 
I'm not sure where/what the model numbers are...  they came in Gold vs Chrome ?  Also there are distinct bridge and neck pickups.  The spacing is different.  If 3 pickups are used, I'm curious which one they used for the middle pickup.  Of course..  Ovation was infamous for just changing the model numbers of things mid-stream for whatever reason. 

Your marketing slant logic is plausible, should we assume the UKII humbuckers were also wound 5k per magnet rail? 
No Idea...  I go by measuring resistance... they either work or they don't.. I either like their sound or I don't.

The number of pickup leads that are accessible dictates the wiring configuration and grounding scheme options as well as the sonic result;
Well I would use the terms "indicates the wiring configuration choices to some extent"  Wiring can always be changed, a pickups wiring can be replaced and/or modified.

does anyone here believe this information has no significance? 
Regarding pickups, I generally go for guitars which I like the pickups.  I don't like the Preacher pickups.  If I liked the rest of the guitar for some reason, I would change the pickups accordingly so...  that's the significance for me. 

When I asked how the pickup cavity was routed, I was trying to gain insight into the tools and bits used. This information will help determine if the third cavity on the Preacher was done at the factory.
The easiest way to 99% check is if it matches the others.  There never was a 3-pickup preacher and like everything else... there are probably different versions, but the  "match the cuts" technigue will help you know if it's after market or not.  FWIW, at a certain point ALL Viper's had "viper III" bodies.  It was just easier to make one body and apply the correct pickguard for the model... Viper or Viper III.  It's been awhile since I have seen a Preacher under the hood, but I believe it's the same routing as a viper.  Not positive on this. 

The same goes for the cavity dimensions and its variance. Anyone working there at the time should know this. I suppose anyone with detailed pictures of the Viper III under the pickguard would be helpful too. 
I think overall shape would be your guide.  As far as variance, again, I would guess they used a template and are all pretty close.  I doubt they checked each cavity once the template was being used.  The template was likely large enough to afford minor variance as you call it, but I have no idea if they tracked it.

When I asked about how the guitars shipped, I was trying to determine the accessories like tools, keys, cables, manuals, etc.
In general a user manual, a key for the case and warrantee card.  Models that could go stereo came with a cord. 

 

 

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stonebobbo
Posted 2013-09-20 6:53 PM (#475235 - in reply to #475192)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
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Posts: 8302

Location: California

mileskb - 2013-09-20 12:19 AM

 

Are the urelite necks favored and if yes, why so? 
Never saw a Urelite neck, ever. 

 

 

You are, of course, referring to the electric guitars.  My USA Ultra acoustic electric from 1983 has a Urelite neck.

 

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 7:29 PM (#475238 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

Mr.Ovation
If all those humbuckers were made the same way with the only difference the color, why not use the same original part number and suffix a 'G' for gold (ie: 700100G/700200G). Was there some part binning going on back then?

Earlier in this thread, numbfingers measured a UKII blade pickup @20KO, does anyone reading have a measure of the Preacher pup?

Yes, you can modify a pickup but seldom conveniently and or without risk of damage.

Your opinion of the Preacher humbuckers jibes with others here, what do you find objectionable or lacking when compared to the Viper singles?

If the Preacher had triple routing at the factory I suggest the following:
1. Both Preacher and Viper bodies may have been cut on the same assembly but for that to be viable, both bodies would have had a similar mounting (presumably aligned at the neck joint for both but there would have been an increased cost in bit wear).
2. The above scenario is more likely if those cavities were cut simultaneously instead of step and repeat.
3. If the later Preachers had three cavities cut, the pickguard would have been probably done by hand.
4. It makes sense that Ovation would have accommodated these kinds of variations given the tepid demand for its straight production units.
What would the premium charge be for a custom order like this and who would have okayed it?
How were the Viper pickups reviewed back then compared to the Preacher humbuckers?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 8:39 PM (#475242 - in reply to #475235)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
stonebobbo - 2013-09-20 6:53 PM
You are, of course, referring to the electric guitars.  My USA Ultra acoustic electric from 1983 has a Urelite neck.


Bobbo, I'm concerned about your excessive attention to detail and antisocial behavior. I'd guess that you could have Asperger's syndrome, although that has been discounted in the latest DSM-5. Or perhaps late-onset OCD?

Edited by numbfingers 2013-09-20 8:42 PM
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 8:55 PM (#475244 - in reply to #475238)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
gmaslin - 2013-09-20 7:29 PM

Earlier in this thread, numbfingers measured a UKII blade pickup @20KO, does anyone reading have a measure of the Preacher pup?

Yes, you can modify a pickup but seldom conveniently and or without risk of damage.


Careful reading will show that I measured a Deacon pickup: "The DC resistance of a Deacon mini-humbucker from my parts box is approximately 20K. "

It's likely that the Preacher pickup is similar.

Ovation pickups are particularly hard to modify or repair because they are often potted with some space-age silicone goo.

The Preacher Deluxe and UKII have serial/parallel switches per pickup, so there must be enough leads for any reasonable wiring scheme.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-20 9:04 PM (#475246 - in reply to #475238)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

If all those humbuckers were made the same way with the only difference the color, why not use the same original part number and suffix a 'G' for gold (ie: 700100G/700200G).
You'd have to ask them. I'm just say'n... you mentioned two numbers. There were at least two different pickups (neck and bridge) which I would think would be four numbers. There may have been slight changes over time, different sources, who knows... Maybe the number of leads... again.. don't know.. Don't know who would know or who would remember if they did know.

Was there some part binning going on back then? 
Again... who knows...


If the Preacher had triple routing at the factory I suggest the following: 
That's a BIG assumption right there as there never was a 3-pickup Preacher model.


1. Both Preacher and Viper bodies may have been cut on the same assembly but for that to be viable, both bodies would have had a similar mounting (presumably aligned at the neck joint for both but there would have been an increased cost in bit wear).
Not sure what the point is.  There was no Preacher III... There was a Viper III and at nearing the end of the life of these models they made one body and either put a Viper or Viper III Pickguard on it.

2. The above scenario is more likely if those cavities were cut simultaneously instead of step and repeat. 
I do not agree 

3. If the later Preachers had three cavities cut, the pickguard would have been probably done by hand.

The Preachers were only cut for two pickups. There never was a Preacher III model.
There was never a Preacher III model. 

How were the Viper pickups reviewed back then compared to the Preacher humbuckers?
To my knowledge, back then as of now... they were viewed the same.  I am from "back then"..  The Deacon and Preacher Deluxe sounded great... I needed more flexibility, so I bought a Viper.. 

 

What is the info you are looking for.  If you could sum up all of your posts into ONE question, what is it you are trying to find out?  

To shortcut this a bit... If you are trying to determine if this was in fact made at the factory, the ONLY way you will EVER find that out is likely if the person who made it remembers doing so.  There is LITTLE TO NOTHING on the guitar to reveal this... HOWEVER...  There are some tell-tales that you havnen't asked that would lead you in the direction.  Basically while you have asked a lot of interesting questions, they are about things that are inconclusive about the line.  I must admit that you have asked questions that NO ONE including myself has EVER asked in at least 12 years (since this group started).

In no particular order if someone signed it under the bridge or put initials somewhere in it would be a tell.  If the 3rd pickup cavity has any finish/sealer will be a big tell showing if the route was added later, but not definitive as someone could have bought a guitar and later wanted it routed... but... if it is bare wood, that is likely not the workmanship at the factory.

Another big tell is the pickguard material.  It was somewhat unique and the edges finished like an Ovation solid body pickguard.  Hard to explain... but the number of layers and angle of the edge...  unique to Ovation as far as I know.  The shape would likely be one of the standard shapes but modified and properly finished.

There are other tells... but until we see some pictures, I think you have expired my knowledge base. 

 

 

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 9:13 PM (#475247 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

numbfingers
Noted. I don't know why I recalled it as a UKII, you also mentioned that the resistance cannot be measured separately for each coil, how did Ovation split the humbuckers from what is presumably a continuous wind? I imagine the Viper pickups had a similar resistance value but because it was around one coil instead of two, much more phase coherent eddy action was likely responsible for the bigger sound. Has anyone tried playing with a tone cap for those humbuckers?
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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-20 9:37 PM (#475248 - in reply to #475247)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
No humbucker is a continuous wind, there are two coils. Easy to add leads between the coils but not always done.

I'd guess that only Bill Bartolini and Bill Lawrence were thinking about eddy currents back in those days. But I wish I had "coherent eddy action".

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-20 10:16 PM (#475249 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

numbfingers
No humbucker is a continuous wind, there are two coils. Easy to add leads between the coils but not always done.
What's wrong with winding it in an 'S' pattern or consecutively? You would still end up with two coils and it would explain the high resistance as well as the reason you couldn't measure them separately, no? Is that Deacon pickup from the 110/210C or 100/200B set?
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 12:09 AM (#475251 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

Just out of curiosity... and excuse me if I've missed it... but where did you come up with these "pickup model numbers" of "110/210C and 100/200B?" 

700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Preacher Deluxe 12-string.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Preacher.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Deacon.
700100-x-15 = Neck 700200-x-15=bridge for the Breadwinner (after they dropped the Toroidal pickups).
700100-x-17 = Neck 700200-x-17=bridge for the Preacher Deluxe.

These are from the assembly guides for these guitars and their associated parts lists.

While initially I thought these number represented the pickup "assembly" as they are listed in the parts list and diagrams, these 700X00-X-XX numbers are also referenced on some of the the schematics as well. On other schematics they are just referenced by "bridge pickup" or "neck pickup." What I actually find interesting is that the only different number on any of the parts lists regarding these pickups is the ones for the Preacher Deluxe 12-String. My guess is that the 12-String may have a slightly different spacing.   Maybe that's the difference from whereever you found the model numbers... one is the "standard" humbucker and the other is the 12-string spacing.   I have noticed the parts list doesn't even deliniate between gold and chrome, only the marketing references that.

 

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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-21 12:56 AM (#475252 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
Here's a pickup patent: http://ovationtribute.com/Ovation_Guitars_Patents/Ovation_1975_Brea...

Are the assembly guides and parts lists somewhere on Jerome's site?
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 2:23 AM (#475253 - in reply to #475252)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
numbfingers - 2013-09-20 10:56 PM
Are the assembly guides and parts lists somewhere on Jerome's site?


I don't think so. I would think there was more than one copy, but I have only seen the one copy I have. It is basically cut-away views with all the parts and components identified.

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-21 3:07 AM (#475254 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Credit goes to numbfingers for introducing me to the part numbers. His comments about the winding were also correct; the patent describes how it was done. I am reminded of my late father who would often tell me, "never leave a room unless you're the smartest person in it". You guys really are great!
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 11:56 AM (#475261 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
So I'll throw this out there..

I think it's interesting that with all the information in this thread, and I'm not being sarcastic, we no nothing important about this guitar like where it was made, when it was made and by whom or for whom it was made. None of the technical info is reliable enough for that.

In no particular order if someone signed it under the bridge or put initials somewhere in it would be a tell. If the 3rd pickup cavity has any finish/sealer will be a big tell showing if the route was added later, but not definitive as someone could have bought a guitar and later wanted it routed... but... if it is bare wood, that is likely not the workmanship at the factory.

Another big tell is the pickguard material. It was somewhat unique and the edges finished like an Ovation solid body pickguard. Hard to explain... but the number of layers and angle of the edge... unique to Ovation as far as I know. The shape would likely be one of the standard shapes but modified and properly finished.

The bridge style is a tell, but not by itself.

Also another note on pickups... they are described as "two high-output humbucking double-coil pickups each with 12 individual 3/16" alnico magnets wired in both series with 10,000 winds per coil."
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-21 1:12 PM (#475262 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
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Posts: 10687

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
I still want to see a photo of the damn guitar.


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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-21 1:53 PM (#475264 - in reply to #475262)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
arthurseery - 2013-09-21 11:12 AM

I still want to see a photo of the damn guitar.




+1 - Well stated... !!!
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-21 3:36 PM (#475268 - in reply to #475199)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

Noted, but you're no more frustrated about this than I am. I have asked the seller to remove the pickguard and he is reluctant to do so for fear of 'messing it up'. I don't know what to do. On the one hand, I am really attracted to the idea of a one off Preacher but don't want my first purchase to be a bust. I tried to post the pics he did send but they are too big? Whatever, I guess if I'm serious I have to go see the thing in person and take my own pics. How do you guys spend so much time here without it effecting the rest of your lives. I'm so behind on my chores just from the few days I'm been on this forum that I may need to take a few days break to catch up.
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-21 6:02 PM (#475270 - in reply to #475268)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 10687

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
gmaslin - 2013-09-21 1:36 PM

I have asked the seller to remove the pickguard and he is reluctant to do so for fear of 'messing it up'.

I wouldn't take my guitar apart for you either.
You gotta un-string it... Undo all those screws... take photos...
Then you may not buy it. And you could mess something up. I agree.

gmaslin - 2013-09-21 1:36 PM

How do you guys spend so much time here without it effecting the rest of your lives.
I have No Life.

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Puppetman
Posted 2013-09-21 6:05 PM (#475271 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 187

Location: Florence,SC
Before removing the pickguard, it is best to loosen the strings and neck enough to tilt it back or, if possible, remove the neck totally. The fingerboard extends over the pickguard and the guard can be easily cracked trying to pull it from under the fingerboard. The pickup mounting screws are extremely long, restricting the pickguard's movement.
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Puppetman
Posted 2013-09-21 6:06 PM (#475272 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 187

Location: Florence,SC
Arthur, you beat me to it!
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-22 12:42 AM (#475275 - in reply to #475271)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Puppetman - 2013-09-21 4:05 PM

Before removing the pickguard, it is best to loosen the strings and neck enough to tilt it back or, if possible, remove the neck totally. The fingerboard extends over the pickguard and the guard can be easily cracked trying to pull it from under the fingerboard. The pickup mounting screws are extremely long, restricting the pickguard's movement.


It's also helpful to raise the pickups as high was possible on their screws.

Actually getting a picture of the pickguard edge and the overall pickguard may be helpful.

Also, rather than lifting the pickguard, maybe just lifting the bridge. Loosen strings and it just lifts up or un-hooks depending on the bridge which is also a tell. There may be something written in the bridge cavity.

However.. bottom line... It's a Preacher with 3 pickups. Either you want it or you don't. While looking under the hood may give you more info... it likely won't. Does it really matter if it was done at the factory or by someone in their garage? It doesn't change the value, nor the playability, or anything else.

Just trying to help you. The chance of you ever knowing the "exact" history of a one-off guitar from Ovation is so rare it's not even worth considering. Not even remotely likely unless it's something really special. A Preacher, or any other normal model with an added pickup, doesn't fall into the category of notable.. note worthy maybe... but that's about it. A nice anecdote.

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TJR
Posted 2013-09-22 8:12 PM (#475287 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 288

Location: Maine

Preacher Deluxe...on the CNC router circa 1978(based on film negative /slide dates)

 





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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-27 5:08 AM (#476472 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Update: I'm going to see the 'Preacher III' this weekend. I am offering $630 without looking underneath and $900 if I can remove the pickguard. Am I being too generous? As an aside, I have a local opportunity for a standard Preacher for $350. Which is the better deal here?
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-27 2:08 PM (#476489 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
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Posts: 13951

Location: Upper Left USA
Get both.

Then put a custom wood veneer pickguard on the one you want to look the best. It'll trash the retail value but it will look cool.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-27 5:26 PM (#476498 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

MWoody
I think I only have room for one preacher. I'm assuming your reply was slightly tongue in cheek. A straight reply would have been more welcome

TJR
That is an excellent document photo and I really appreciate you pulling it up to contribute here. Was that their only one? If it wasn't, do you know where those machines or any of the operators who worked on them are today?
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-27 8:43 PM (#476504 - in reply to #476498)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
gmaslin - 2013-09-27 3:26 PM

MWoody
I think I only have room for one preacher. I'm assuming your reply was slightly tongue in cheek. A straight reply would have been more welcome
You know what happens when you "assume".

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numbfingers
Posted 2013-09-27 9:00 PM (#476505 - in reply to #476498)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 1094

Location: NW Washington State
gmaslin - 2013-09-27 5:26 PM
MWoody
I think I only have room for one preacher. I'm assuming your reply was slightly tongue in cheek. A straight reply would have been more welcome


OK, here's a straight reply.

I hope you buy the three pickup Preacher for $900, or even $650, because then you will have overspent on a guitar that you want because you think it's unique and important, even though it's ordinary at best and overpriced.

It's what you deserve! Go for it, and let us know where that other Preacher is available for $350!

-Steve W.


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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-27 9:01 PM (#476506 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13951

Location: Upper Left USA

All of my replies are straight.

Straight off the top of my head mostly, but straight all the same.

Its my guitars that are curved and cheeky.



Edited by MWoody 2013-09-27 9:03 PM
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-27 9:18 PM (#476508 - in reply to #476506)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 10687

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
MWoody - 2013-09-27 7:01 PM


I miss that guitar.

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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-27 10:10 PM (#476515 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

numbfingers
You could have instructed me on whose signature to look for, where to look for it or any other way to confirm its legitimacy not previously mentioned by Miles, but instead, you decided to say what a fool I am. If a 3 pickup Preacher isn't rare or special, why aren't there a bunch of them around? No one here would guff at paying $900 for a 12 string PF22 which was unknown until recently, so why do you think I'm paying too much for the rarer guitar? I'm in this just as much for the capital appreciation as for the joy of playing. I have other guitars but don't have any Ovations so why not get a special one? It is entirely possible that it was ordered with three pickups to imitate Brian May's three humbucker custom guitar. It is also plausible to conjecture that it wouldn't have been ordered on the deluxe because of the pre-amp. Were any Preacher Deluxe made without the pre-amp electronics? Is everyone reading in agreement that $900 is excessive for the guitar if it was a legit factory made custom?
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-28 3:07 AM (#476521 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
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Posts: 10687

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
I have other guitars but don't have any Ovations so why not get a special one?
If you just want to get an Ovation, why not get one that is representative of Ovations in general.
A regular Viper? There is a Viper III on d'Bay. A coupla UKII's. Snakeskin Celebrity. Plus VXT's.
Rather than one that is one-of-a-kind. A unique guitar is only "Kewel" to people who recognize that coolness.

Is everyone reading in agreement that $900 is excessive for the guitar if it was a legit factory made custom?
If it is a Nice guitar, it wouldn't matter if it was a legit factory made custom or not.

If you don't have any Ovations and you just want one, I might get the regular Preacher for $350.
Then again, it would depend on the condition of the guitar.

As to $900 being too much?... The only guitar that I own that cost over $1K is an Adamas.
But many members have custom made guitar that were probably quite expensive.
Unless you are sure that this is an awesome guitar, why would you pay that much for it anyway.
I have Killer guitars that cost much less than $500...
How desirable is this guitar? Is it still available? If so, it ain't that desirable nor that great a deal.

I almost bought a $200 DJ Ashba Celebrity today... While I was thinking someone bought it...
That was a desirable guitar at a good price... But Not so desirable that I bought it.
Do you get what I am saying?

So if you are thinking of this as an investment... Ovations are not really popular investments.
You may need a whole lot of patience to see a profitable return on your investment.
If you just want to PLAY it... Why haven't you bought it already?
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-28 6:53 AM (#476528 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Okay, so we seem to agree that a 'Preacher III' is not a common configuration but what makes it unrepresentative of Ovation? Am I the only one here who believes this Preacher three pickup configuration is 'kewl' and even 'kewler' if factory legitimate? The replies seem to indicate that the standard Preacher available to me for $350 is the better deal but if I got that and paid someone to add a third pickup and wire the selection options, what would my total cost be then? If this guitar was from the Ovation factory as a legit custom order purchase back then, it indicates to me that the person who ordered it had some guitar sophistication. That person may have been influential or historically significant which adds further speculative value. Why isn't that notable and worthy of a premium? I cannot understand why the members here don't concur with my logic, it seems to fall in lock step with how 'value' of an Ovation is determined.

Old Man Arthur
I understand your point entirely with the DJ Ashba but what makes your Adamas more 'valuable' than this 'Preacher III' if it was factory original? It probably isn't because it cost more to make at the time. Yes, Ovations are not popular investments today and that is the point. The patience will be an easy task. I will be playing that Preacher while the market begins to recognize what we already figured out.
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Designzilla
Posted 2013-09-28 9:23 AM (#476532 - in reply to #476528)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Location: Orlando, FL
gmaslin - 2013-09-28 7:53 AM
I will be playing that Preacher while the market begins to recognize what we already figured out.


I don't think that will ever happen. Even in their heyday Ovation electrics were under appreciated. Most of the guitar playing public view Ovation as an acoustic guitar company who's best days are behind them. And many of those people have never played, or want to play, an Ovation. To them an Ovation solid body is just an oddity.

As for value, there's market value and personal value. Even if a guitar is overpriced for the market, it still may have enough value to you personally to buy it. I know I have overspent for instruments before, but I didn't like them any less.

Bottom line, don't agonize about it. If you really want it, buy it and then let us all know what you think.

And since you seem to like it here, PLEASE grow a thicker skin and develop an sense of humor! A lot of great information is shared along with the sarcasm and smart assery. It's the collective personality of the site. Relax and don't take things personally. You don't have to call people out for being unhelpful it you don't like 10% of their post. If you examine the archives you will find a huge amount of great info offered with razor wit. Believe me this place has mellowed considerably!

Buy a guitar and enjoy it!
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FlySig
Posted 2013-09-28 9:24 AM (#476533 - in reply to #476506)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 3925

Location: Utah
MWoody - 2013-09-27 9:01 PM

All of my replies are straight.

Straight off the top of my head mostly, but straight all the same.

Its my guitars that are curved and cheeky.



Are there 2 of those, or do I now own the town bicycle?

The electronics are different in mine, with the piezo bridge and active preamp on board. Otherwise though it looks like the same instrument.

Man, do I love that guitar!
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FlySig
Posted 2013-09-28 9:33 AM (#476534 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 3925

Location: Utah
The Preacher Deluxe with the built in preamp is generally considered to sound better than the standard Preacher. My daughters Deluxe sounds great, I've never played a standard Preacher. It is heavy, plays easy. Her Deluxe has coil splitting switches, so you can get a good single coil sound. Lots of sonic options there.

If you love the PIII, buy it if you can pony up the $. As DesignZilla said, we've all paid too much for some instruments according to market pricing, but if a guitar calls your name you have no choice but to take her home.

On the flip side, we've all been saddened by how low market prices can be on guitars we are trying to sell.
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-28 1:24 PM (#476538 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Location: Upper Left USA
Flysig,
I think it is a different one along the same genre. Tell you the truth, I have lost track of the coming ins and going outs...

Is this how Trader Jim feels all the time?
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-28 2:41 PM (#476539 - in reply to #476528)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest

Okay, so we seem to agree that a 'Preacher III' is not a common configuration but what makes it unrepresentative of Ovation?
Only in the sence that it was never a production run.  Certainly an example of what Ovation could do regardless of how it got that way. 

Am I the only one here who believes this Preacher three pickup configuration is 'kewl' and even 'kewler' if factory legitimate?
Not at all.  Doesn't change the value or collectibiilty much unless you are specifically looking for one-off's even then.. doesn't really effect the value...  Kewl factor is there... in spades.. 

The replies seem to indicate that the standard Preacher available to me for $350 is the better deal but if I got that and paid someone to add a third pickup and wire the selection options, what would my total cost be then?
Well probably at the top end of the scale, an additional $300-$500 depending on who did the work, but at sell time it would still only garner a couple hundred more than original.

If this guitar was from the Ovation factory as a legit custom order purchase back then, it indicates to me that the person who ordered it had some guitar sophistication. That person may have been influential or historically significant which adds further speculative value. Why isn't that notable and worthy of a premium?
If you could prove this, which is a near impossibilty in the best of scenario's then it would certainly add a couple hundred to the value depending on who the originator of the guitar was.  As I mentioned earlier, there were people putting together Ovation solid bodies from parts in all sorts of configurations in the late 90's and early 2000's.  I bought up most of them as they were going for a song on ebay and at shows.  In most cases, much less than the "original".  Most were done nicely.  I parted them out for way more than I could get as a hole guitar.
  

While we are on the subject of Preachers... I have a VERY cool Preacher.  What I think is the best made... It's a Preacher with Viper Pickups.  Not only was it built at the factory, it's documented on the cover of an album made by and produced by the Kaman family who owned the factory.  The Viper pickups should have been used in that guitar from the start.  Kewl factor and mojo off the scale!!!    To 99.9% of the people even remotely interested, it's just a Preacher with Viper pickups. Hell... I have the FINAL prototype of the Breadwinner.  The final model configuration before production..  Someday these guitars may be worth something to someone or a museum besides me.  Kewl factor off the scale...  monetary value.... not-so-much unless it's just the "right" buyer. 

I cannot understand why the members here don't concur with my logic, it seems to fall in lock step with how 'value' of an Ovation is determined.
We concur on the cool factor I think.  And we concur with your "what if" logic, but the fact remains.. there is nearly no chance worth mentioning that you will determine its lineage, and even if you do..  that only adds a few hundred unless it was Glen Campbell or some 80's famous rocker that did the mod.   Here's another example.  Boston's double-neck Preacher, the only one made we know of, well documented, sold in the range you mentioned for this Preacher with 3-pickups.  Just trying to give you some percpective..  

As was stated above... You seem to be drawn to this guiar... BUY IT.   That's the only way you'll get some sleep.  And, if it turns out you can establish the lineage, all the better.   If the current owner figures it out and it turns out to be something or someone important, you can rest assured you likely won't have another crack at it.

Ovations are not popular investments today and that is the point. The patience will be an easy task. I will be playing that Preacher while the market begins to recognize what we already figured out.
Actually Ovations are a great value.  On average you could have bought an Ovation 30 years ago and probably get your money out of it if sold.  Adamas' have taken a hit, but that will change.  The problem is, Ovation never had an "expencive" guitar..   So in value, in the scheme of things, we're talking pennies really.  The average solid body streeted for $300-$500 when NEW...  While other brands at least had models that streeted for at least twice that.   

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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-28 4:01 PM (#476543 - in reply to #476528)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
gmaslin - 2013-09-28 4:53 AM

Old Man Arthur
I understand your point entirely with the DJ Ashba but what makes your Adamas more 'valuable' than this 'Preacher III' if it was factory original?

I only said that my 1681 is the only guitar that I paid more than a thousand for...
And that is just what they go for. Or did back then. (now they cost More)
I was just in the right place at the right time.
(this is my Baby... I need to take it out more)

As to what makes it worth more... Materials and Labor.

Also, I own electric guitars, but I really don't play electric guitar.
I play acoustic guitar on an electric... I don't shred, or wail, or tap, or wah-wah.
Therefore, while I find expensive electric guitars kewel to admire...
I shouldn't be spending money on them.

But I am getting attracted to the little ones...


Sorry... Didn't mean to travel too OT.
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MWoody
Posted 2013-09-28 6:18 PM (#476548 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Posts: 13951

Location: Upper Left USA
"Sorry... Didn't mean to travel too OT"

Compared to what?
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Old Man Arthur
Posted 2013-09-28 6:25 PM (#476549 - in reply to #476548)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



Joined:
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Posts: 10687

Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR

MWoody - 2013-09-28 4:18 PM

"Sorry... Didn't mean to travel too OT"

Compared to what?
Oh... I don't know...

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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-29 3:29 PM (#476563 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I'm thinking those comix are worth more than most of our guitars.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-29 3:58 PM (#476565 - in reply to #476528)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
gmaslin - 2013-09-28 4:53 AM

Okay, so we seem to agree that a 'Preacher III' is not a common configuration but what makes it unrepresentative of Ovation? Am I the only one here who believes this Preacher three pickup configuration is 'kewl' and even 'kewler' if factory legitimate? The replies seem to indicate that the standard Preacher available to me for $350 is the better deal but if I got that and paid someone to add a third pickup and wire the selection options, what would my total cost be then? If this guitar was from the Ovation factory as a legit custom order purchase back then, it indicates to me that the person who ordered it had some guitar sophistication. That person may have been influential or historically significant which adds further speculative value. Why isn't that notable and worthy of a premium? I cannot understand why the members here don't concur with my logic, it seems to fall in lock step with how 'value' of an Ovation is determined.

Old Man Arthur
I understand your point entirely with the DJ Ashba but what makes your Adamas more 'valuable' than this 'Preacher III' if it was factory original? It probably isn't because it cost more to make at the time. Yes, Ovations are not popular investments today and that is the point. The patience will be an easy task. I will be playing that Preacher while the market begins to recognize what we already figured out.


I know you addressed others, but I may have the answers you are looking for.

On value.. Most of us who have participated in this thread have spent Waaaay too much on a guitar at one time just because we wanted it. So any of the "overpayment" remarks are somewhat tongue'n cheek. No the guitar isn't worth a thousand, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it if it speaks to you. You will be sorry if you don't.

The PF-22's can't be compared to the Preacher in the sense that the legitimacy as a group of prototypes is known. The 12-string in fact went to a rock star. It's documented. And just so you know... While they may not be posting.. the people that built these guitars, are reading this. If they remembered it, or knew anything about it, they would have either posted or asked someone (me) to post for them. That's my personal red flag that the guitar may not have been built at the factory.

There wouldn't be a particular signature that you are looking for. But, if there was a signature and someone piped up that they knew the name and knew their signature that would be a clue. If no one recognized it, then at least it's someone you could google to get you closer to its history.

You may also want to spend some more time reading the archive around here. Just jump in anywhere or google sold body or something. The truth is that with your logic ALL Ovation SHOULD be worth a LOT more than they are, and ANY custom or one-off should be worth WAY more than that. I agree. Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way with Ovations. They weren't all that expensive to start off with. If you invested in a popular $1000 guitar 30 years ago, if it's today value was $3000-$5000 most wouldn't bat an eye. But Ovations were only worth about $500 30 years ago. So if one is selling for $1500 today, it better be off the charts in popular and rare and condition and owned by a rock start of note.

Further comparison/perspective.. A PF-22 TODAY would be a $2000 guitar yet it's pretty hard to half that for an actual PF-22. It's a set neck, hand-built guitar with DiMarzio pickups made in the USA with Schaller hardware. Find another set-neck made in USA like this and they are selling NOW more than this guitar was ever selling for and remember the PF-22 was NEVER a production guitar. Now apply the same logic to the PF-22 Basses...

Want more extremes... THe Ultra-GS guitars. Out-Strat any Strato out there. The Hardware alone is worth more than you can buy/sell a complete guitar. They too were assembled in the USA. You can't touch a similar name brand guitar today for at least twice what these ever sold for, and then you'd stll have to swap the pickups, machines and bridge for another $500 just to get a similar guitar and you still wouldn't have the cool and comfortable routing around the edge. It's nuts... but it's the way it is.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-09-30 8:27 AM (#476582 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Mr. Ovation
Once again, thanks for the truly informative posts. As stated earlier, I went to play the guitar this weekend. It sounds quite good in many pickup configurations and the variety of tones are astounding. It really plays like a universal guitar that can imitate any sound (I counted at least 32 distinct pickup combinations before I got tired). I noted a few deadish spots so a fret dress or other adjustment would be necessary to make it play better. Given that I couldn't get ANY cooperation from the seller investigating the underbody of the guitar, I didn't feel comfortable pulling the trigger on the unit. He wants $1000 with OHSC and insists that an Ovation employee made this guitar and that it shipped from an Ovation factory. When asked how he knew this not being the original owner he said he got the guitar from his uncle's sound studio in Manhattan. I am still communicating with him about the history of the guitar but if you are right about the people who built these guitars reading and not recognizing this build, I think I made the right decision. I am going to buy the plain jane Preacher for my consolation.

Designzilla
My skin is fairly thick and I can dish it out about as well as I can take it. If you review my post history you can validate this.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-09-30 2:57 PM (#476592 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
gmasiln, I'm in your corner on this. Try contacting the studio or at least getting the studio name and posting here. THAT might be something that rings a bell. Maybe not the guitar itself, but remembering "hey.. we built some crazy guitar for that studio". That's the stuff builders remember. I still think you should get the stock Preacher as well... you can likely move it at the same price you paid if you don't like it. Did you take any snapshots of the Preacher with three pickups?
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-10-01 1:42 PM (#476615 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: RE: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

Mr. Ovation
Yes, I took some photos but to be honest, I don't want to think about this anymore so I will try to make this as complete a post as I can so i can learn to enjoy my cheaper Preacher (which I will be picking up tonight). The seller's uncle is not sure of the exact business name since he sold his share even before the studio closed in 1997 but this sound studio operated under an Atlantic records contract. The arrangement was described to me as follows: Atlantic paid the studio partners a fixed annual fee so that if any of their signed artists needed it at any time, they would have a ready studio with three hours notice. All other financial responsibilities unrelated to the artist fell on the partnership. These guys were the real deal, artists like Rick James and many others of varying notoriety frequented this studio and very likely played this guitar. I'll say something about the character of that guitar. I have never played a cleaner sounding humbucker, it is so completely lacking in any sonic character that in normal operation it is somewhat uninvolving. It doesn't do anything exciting on its own and you have to really pluck at it to make it cluck or put it off its keel. It's not missing anything, the output is full, lacking neither treble nor base and it's all very balanced but it doesn't invent anything until you start splitting the coils and pairing them up again. They really named it properly because this guitar is as stoic, sober and as free from sin as they come but and this is VERY big BUT, I've never heard a guitar sound better with effects than this one, ESPECIALLY with a wah pedal! Closest thing to a real person crying I have ever heard, really. Effect combinations that make other guitars sound ridiculous, unbearably offensive or cartoonish just reach their stride with a Preacher. It can get all those weird sounds but it takes more to get it there. It's like no matter what crazy modeling parameter you use, it finds a way to keep it from getting stupid. I can completely understand why a studio would want a guitar configured like this. That guitar could go from big ball fat to razor thin and scratchy and make both sound credible, very impressive. Now that I've heard the Preacher coils split, you can bet that I will be attempting this on my own Preacher.



(Preacher III_2.jpg)



(Neck.jpg)



(Pickguard Edge.png)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments Preacher III_2.jpg (83KB - 5 downloads)
Attachments Neck.jpg (55KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments Pickguard Edge.png (80KB - 3 downloads)
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Damon67
Posted 2013-10-01 6:32 PM (#476621 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?



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Location: Jet City
FWIW, those switches came from the factory. Did you see that there were actual batteries in this thing? It's definitely setup different than a deluxe.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-10-01 7:05 PM (#476622 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 79

No batteries, no unity gain pre amp, just a straight Preacher but with a 5-way switch that chose B, BM, BN, MN, N and the three other switches chose the modes, split, join and mix. I believe it was wired for 48 different combinations, I would have loved to see how it was done. I was also impressed with how neatly everything was laid out. All accessible without getting in the way. For those curious, there are 27 x 5 potential combinations with those switches.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-10-01 7:54 PM (#476623 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Well as I suspected... more questions than answers..

As Damon pointed out, those are Ovation switches. There is/was no other source to my knowledge and I have been looking diligently for about 20 years.

Although hard to tell, it does look like Ovation stock pickguard material and not a DIY cut but a machined cut. Again, leans toward made at factory, especially the cut for the 5-position switch. But... how is that switch mounted? Is there a circuit board underneath... Note same question about the middle pickup below.

The placement of the three switches, or even the choice to use those switches would lead me toward factory built.

The middle pickup NOT being mounted with the tri-mount I find just plain weird. If it was done at the factory, I can see no logical reason for not having the middle pickup adjustable and in fact pretty easy to do. I mean 3 holes in the pickguard would have to be easier than whatever was actually done.

Now having seen it, and looked at the parts that are important, I would certainly think it's worth a little more than a stock Preacher to the right person, but not much more as it's not "original" as it were. Additionally without any paperwork, or other proof of celebrity, it's just a really nice custom Preacher.
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gmaslin
Posted 2013-10-01 9:32 PM (#476624 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
September 2013
Posts: 79

Mr. Ovation
The middle pickup NOT being mounted with the tri-mount I find just plain weird.
I think that's an artifact of down sampling the image to post it. The original photo shows them up discolored/rusty? I can send them to you via email for you to get a better look. My guy flaked out on me tonight so still no Preacher for me. I really hate second guessing myself after I walk away from a deal. Having you speculate that it may be a factory legit build is only torture for me. Let's just say some clever guy did it on a weekend in his basement and let's be done with it.
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2013-10-01 10:00 PM (#476625 - in reply to #476624)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


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Posts: 7130

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
gmaslin - 2013-10-01 7:32 PM
Let's just say some clever guy did it on a weekend in his basement and let's be done with it.


And honestly, unless you can prove otherwise, that's all it is regardless of the basement being a metaphor of an employee with an idea at the factory (as was encouraged) or someone who dumpster dove the factory trash bin... or a legit Custom order, or a prototype of something that never made it to press. Without knowing for sure, it's just a kewl Preacher, nothing more, nothing less.

As far as walking away, you may want to revisit him in a few months with a "so... did you sell the guitar yet?" because most of the people that would remotely be interested in it... are right here on this forum.

I don't like to play price police. When I had more disposable income I may have jumped on it, knowing I'd never get my money out of it. There are others like that as well. But the reality is that several "important" guitars, with a history, with celebrity, that were in many people's view better guitars to start with (although that is subjective) have bought and sold and a regular basis for about the same and much less than this guy is asking for this custom Preacher.

As I stated above... wait a few months... he'll still have it. If he has done ANY research at all (either himself of a friend), they have likely seen this thread. It's pretty hard to search for anything Ovation and not end up here..

Good luck.

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frankencat
Posted 2017-07-08 11:31 PM (#535727 - in reply to #475068)
Subject: Re: The definitive Preacher thread?


Joined:
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Posts: 10

Location: Tampa Bay
This thread needs more pics.
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