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Location: south east Michigan | I stopped in to our local, independent music store to just kick some tires.
This is where I have played and purchased a couple ovations.
They have stocked AD-II, milleniun, 30th anniversary, and some adamii.
The four ovations they have left have been banished from the acoustic room and now hang on the wall accompanied by the lowest of the low imports.
****sigh****
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | You should buy them and restore them to their former glory.
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Location: SoCal | Local Guitar Center is the same. Ovations are grouped with the crappy guitars..... |
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Location: Flahdaw | The Ovations at my GC ARE "crappy guitars".... just "low imports" and certainly not worthy of hanging with the Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, Breedloves, and Larrivees...
I like them even less than the Ibanez's and Yamahas. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-08 6:55 AM
The Ovations at my GC ARE "crappy guitars".... just "low imports" and certainly not worthy of hanging with the Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, Breedloves, and Larrivees...
I like them even less than the Ibanez's and Yamahas.
Truer words were never spoken. Last "Ovation" I picked up in GC I had in my hands less than ten seconds before returning it to the rack before anybody else came in and heard it.
Edited by DaveKell 2013-09-08 7:22 AM
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Location: south east Michigan | What they have left are 2 of those MOB type things with the zig-zag sound hole, one of those HEROIN signature guitars, and just one New Hartford made Custom Legend.
You're right..... except for the Custom Legend they were all displayed properly.
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-08 8:13 AM
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| Stopped in at Sam A.h yesterday, and the best Ovation they had was a used balladeer with a giant ding in it, for $550.00 (strings were rusty lol) My Folklore blew away all the guitars that were not behind the counter (top of the line Martins and Taylors etc.) We need an Ovation only store LOL |
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Location: sitting at my computer | Try CityMusic, they seem to have a pretty good in-store O selection... in SINGAPORE!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLAngHW8-w&feature=player_embedded http://www.citymusic.com.sg/index.asp |
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Location: south east Michigan | That clip was from 2011.
I wonder if they are still pumping out USA made inventory to Asia. |
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Location: Flahdaw | USA drinks African wines. Africans LOVE California wines.
Everyone wants USA goods (except Americans) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | This is the store I wrote about last year. I made a visit there and was blown away. They have every single USA model including every, and I mean EVERY single Adamas model. If you do a search you will find the post. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Something about respect...........? |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | If we/they got it a whole routine (and the intro to this website) would die! ;-) |
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Location: south east Michigan | The new Sweetwater flyer is pushing Celebritys for $299. $299.00 !!!
And even at that crazy price point you have to figure both Fender and Sweetwater are making a few bucks. We just can't pretend anymore that the imports are anything other than just that.... $299 instruments. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Bear in mind, that only leaves $197 in profit. (made from recycled medical waste, Chinese drywall, and lead paint...by 12 year olds in a sweat shop) |
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Location: Da Windy City | Right now, Ovations suffer from a perception problem.
A rule in marketing is that any product line will always be defined by its lowest and least desirable offering. This is why manufacturers with BASIC brand savvy know to segregate their higher end offerings from their lower end offerings with a totally different brand name, so as not to dilute the perception of their main line.
Rolex does it with Tudor
Gibson did it with Epiphone
Fender does it with Squier
Jackson did it with Charvel
In many instances, the sub-branded instruments themselves are great, sometimes they are built to one hundred percent spec of the eponymous 'higher brand' model but usually made in an overseas labor market and thusly, liable to ignorant narratives and flat out dumb superstitions that "only junk comes from there..." and that instruments made in (Country X) have magical powers.
Lets not bullshit ourselves; Ovations haven't exactly been at the forefront of the acoustic guitar market for quite some time, in the way that they were int the 80s. They are most definitely not en-vogue right now, which means that they don't have much of a presence in popular music, which in turn means not a big following and not a lot of people ordering those brand new four figure models from the US factory...Ahh, but the cheaper ones. Those still sell pretty-kinda-sorta OK. Not great, but OK enough to have a few on hand, over there by the Squires and Epiphones.
Ovation did their level best to segregate "Celebrity" from their core US brand but ultimately their aesthetic is just too distinct and eventually, in the eyes of the consuming public, an Ovation became an Ovation became an Ovation whether be it a US made Balladeer or $139 import special. They cannot be faulted for preserving their existence via lower priced offerings, but it does impact perception of the core brand. Breedlove, once 'special', is now the same thing.
Forum denizens and aficionados will always exist but we're just not enough to keep the smokestack blowing at the Ovation plant. Guitars aren't like toilet paper. Even the worst and least discriminate hoarders hit a point where enough's enough.
Speaking only for myself, I will always be a die-hard Ovation guy. This is probably reflective of my era, the time I grew up in and just absolutely falling in love with that lush 'Ovation Tone'. Unfortunately, Ovations are subject to the same phenomenon Jerry Garcia noted about the 'Dead : They're like black licorice. You either love them or you hate them. Right now, with the acoustic guitar buying public mired deep in various gear superstitions that disincline them from Ovations, the number of black licorice lovers these days is very small... and those who want it tend to buy the cheapest generic version, not the expensive stuff. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-11 4:52 PM
The new Sweetwater flyer is pushing Celebritys for $299. $299.00 !!!
And even at that crazy price point you have to figure both Fender and Sweetwater are making a few bucks. We just can't pretend anymore that the imports are anything other than just that.... $299 instruments.
In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart, save for people who just love the internally smug idea that a family of Austrian artisans spent three days crafting the hinges on their door and they are the finest quality available at $499 a set.
Everyone else goes to Home Depot and buys the brass ones for $15.
We all know the corksniffer narratives- about how they have blessed ears that can hear Hosanna or anyone who thinks otherwise is just too poor to afford the good stuff- but none of it's true. They will say that, but none will ever rise to wager actual cash on it in a blind test across a range of sound samples that precludes successful guesswork. Even Stradivarius can't beat a .99 cent blindfold.
I'm not one to stand in the way of people with financial and emotional investments in 'fine instruments' from circling the wagons and confirming their biases, but I will stand on the sideline and chuckle a bit.
If you're going to knock inexpensive guitars, have a credible reason. Cost alone isn't a reason and even more importantly, these days, with the weird labor market conditions we operate under, cost doesn't even necessarily indicate quality, either.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-11 9:16 PM
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Guitar - 2013-09-11 7:09 PM
Cost alone isn't a reason and even more importantly, these days, with the weird labor market conditions we operate under, cost doesn't even necessarily indicate quality, either.
Amen.
Once again... I always thought that's what was Great about Ovations.
Affordable, workingman's guitar.
I don't care if they make a profit selling a Celebrity for under $300.
Not too long ago Sam Ash was selling new CC54i's for $175.
We were commenting that the iDea module cost more than that.
If you believe that Celebrity's are starter guitars,
let's make them affordable for the young'uns and poor folks.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-11 10:05 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | I remember when Ovations were somewhat pricey, new. A lot of the 1980's era instruments that sell for $300-$500 today are, factoring in for inflation, profoundly cheaper now than they were back then.
Ovation made a tactical decision regarding marketing their brand; whether it worked or not depends on who you ask. If you ask them, yes, it worked. They're still here. If you ask old-timers who have an emotional investment in their instrument being 'premier' how they feel by seeing the brand cheapened by less expensive instruments, they probably won't like that much. They won't objectively admit why but if all of a sudden Wal Mart started selling a variety of Rolexes for $899, you'd see a lot of pissed off Rolex owners.
The fact that right now, a kid with a couple hundred bucks can buy a decent used- or in some cases, new- import Ovation is great for playing musicians, perhaps a bit annoying to 'collectors' who are more concerned with the perception of other people than they are about making sounds.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-11 10:15 PM
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Location: south east Michigan | "In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart" Well... let's just agree to disagree on that one. Tho I will say that $300 today can buy a better guitar than it could 15 years ago. ******** save for people who just love the internally smug idea that a family of Austrian artisans spent three days crafting the hinges on their door and they are the finest quality available at $499 a set. If you ask old-timers who have an emotional investment in their instrument being 'premier' how they feel by seeing the brand cheapened by less expensive instruments, they probably won't like that much. Maybe after you've spent some time here you'll find we are not the corksniffing type. We have no illusions of where Ovation stands among it's peers. Many guitarists won't look past the bowl where we've taken the time to learn and appreciate what the different models can offer. I'd say that "we", much more than other forum-ists, appreciate a well made, good sounding guitar no matter what name is on the headstock. ************** I remember when Ovations were somewhat pricey, new. The general feeling here is that Ovations have offered great value for the dollar from the top of the line on down. When I purchased my AD-II, a equally apointed Martin/Taylor/Gibson could have been a thousand dollars more. . Like I said... after you're here a bit you'll see my point. It's just that it feels very, odd to have some of us characterized as "smug". . Usually a poster's perspective is learned over time. You've put forth a lot of "perspective" in just 5 posts. If I may ask, what's your background? Hobbyist? Paid to play professional? Open mic guy? Industy insider?
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-12 11:19 AM
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Politician? Lawyer? Marketing Puke? Troll?
Oops. Did I type that out loud?
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I remember when Ovations were somewhat pricey, new.
Well, those days are here again as far as USA Models are concerned.
Also, prices are relative to the economy of the time.
Look at some old prices... http://www.ovationfanclub.com/files/prices.asp
Then remember that in 1971 you could rent a House for $150/mo, minimum wage was $1.60/hr.
When you look at it that way, $300 ain't that cheap.
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Waskel reappears for a quick jab. I would never have guessed lawyer. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Ovation made a tactical decision on the marketing... If you ask them it worked.....
Who the hell is them? Is there even a them, or a he that can make these decisions? I suspect not. The only people that care about Ovation are us and those like us.
Don't lose sight of reality. Ovation was not a company( 30 years ago it was but not 15 years ago) it was just a brand. Fender did not buy Ovation. They bought Kaman music for all the percussion and distribution, Ovation and Hamer and other stuff like that was just a tagalong bonus. |
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Location: closely held secret | Mark in Boise - 2013-09-12 10:32 AM
Waskel reappears for a quick jab. I would never have guessed lawyer.
Nothing personal, Mark. But you know that...
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| Old Man Arthur
Well said but you are leaving out technological advances. There is no question in my mind that amps today are better than yesteryears but with guitars, it's more debatable. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I was just commenting that you can get a really nice guitar for really cheap nowadays.
And as the header sometimes sez:
Random quote: "Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now." - Jol Dantzig
I have a guitar that will imitate 26 different guitar sounds... including banjo and sitar.
And I have an iDea preamp that I can drop-in and it will play along with me and record.
But when we are comparing present prices to the 70's....
We need to add a zero to those old prices to get proper perspective.
When a Balladeer sold for $300, that was two months rent...
Or 6 weeks wages for a full-time dishwasher.
Also... The people buying that $299 Celebrity aren't complaining that the price is too low.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-12 4:12 PM
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I'm pretty sure you pinpointed the cost of living factor in a post describing renting apartments then vs. now and that analogy was spot on but you can't make the same analogy about a computer from that era with any credibility. A 486DX-33Mhz computer cost about $5K in 1986 and the build quality was amazing back then but as technology advances, more gets done with less. If you're looking for a nostalgic sound, I get the desire for older gear but pickups are wound better, shielding is patterned better and build tolerances are generally tighter today than yesteryear and that generally results in quieter and bigger sounding gear. What happens in most cases is that an artist develops a sound on a given guitar and amp that people want to imitate but don't have the time or knowledge to find with their own gear so the artist gives up the amp/guitar settings after signing an endorsement deal and everybody's happy until the next interesting sound comes along. Ultimately, a guitar is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, just like any other commodity and if gold can go up and down, so can guitars. |
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Location: NJ | there are some good imports.
you usually have to play 2dz of the same guitar to find them |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 10:57 AM You've put forth a lot of "perspective" in just 5 posts. If I may ask, what's your background? Hobbyist? Paid to play professional? Open mic guy? Industy insider? You can ask, but I feel no obligation whatsoever to answer you. I'm not here to apply for a job. It's a discussion forum and my ideas stand 100% on merit, not 'association'. If your only counter-credential is that you've been a member longer and have more posts, that means absolutely nothing and anyone who thinks it does is dumber than a dried out corn cob. For the sake of argument, assume I'm a janitor. You should be worrying why a janitor is seeing all this stuff that you apparently cannot see, even after a decade on an internet forum discussing the issue with thousands and thousands of posts.
And for whatever it's worth, yes, you were definitely going headlong into corksniffer territory with "A $299 guitar will always be a $299 guitar". The implication was crystal clear, it's a standard refrain... and it's embarassingly mindless. Don't worry, though. There's plenty of people who believe the same stuff, willing to stand right behind you and shout praise-be-hallelujah, insist that I'M A LAWYER OR A TROLL OR A POLITICIAN! but ultimately, at the end of the day, it boils down to who among us has the better position. Internet forum post volume does absolutely nothing to enrich that.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:14 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 11:29 AM
Politician? Lawyer? Marketing Puke? Troll?
Oops. Did I type that out loud?
You typed words that implied someone just burst your bubble and you really have nothing substantive to say in retort so instead, you just flailed around and made dumb guesses in a fit of emotional tantrum. Basically, you embarrassed yourself.
Wait, did I say that out loud?
Believers' are what they are. |
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-12 12:32 PM
I remember when Ovations were somewhat pricey, new.
Well, those days are here again as far as USA Models are concerned.
Also, prices are relative to the economy of the time.
Look at some old prices... http://www.ovationfanclub.com/files/prices.asp
Then remember that in 1971 you could rent a House for $150/mo, minimum wage was $1.60/hr.
When you look at it that way, $300 ain't that cheap.
Absolutely true. That's kind of what I was saying, without bothering to note inflation. Also, unlike most other guitars from the same era, they've depreciated terribly relative to what they originally cost (factored in for inflation). Right now, in my opinion, is a helluva time to be a vintage Ovation fan since you can get fantastic instruments for dirt cheap. Whether they enjoy a renaissance among 'collectors' is yet to be seen but for musicians who like Ovations, it's like manna from heaven.
The big difference between then and now being, there wasn't a 'co-branded' import alternative for 1/8th the cost back then, nor was there an aftermarket full of used instruments on the cheap, creating a pretty massive downward pressure on new manufacturing. If you wanted an Ovation back then, you had to go all in at Mom and Pop Music and buy the real deal. Now, that totally isn't the case.
This creates an ideological schism between people who pay the premium and those who don't. Those who do usually do so on the basis of their having magic ears (that they're unwilling to actually bet on, but they will insist they have them) or simply being so affluent that they have the disposable income to 'buy the good stiff' and everyone else is just beneath them, which is, ya know. Basically the bedrock basis for all 'high end' marketing strategy. Ego cases only understand price, not value.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:12 PM
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Location: closely held secret | Guitar - 2013-09-12 2:51 PM
Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 11:29 AM
Politician? Lawyer? Marketing Puke? Troll?
Oops. Did I type that out loud?
You typed words that implied someone just burst your bubble and you really have nothing substantive to say in retort so instead, you just flailed around and made dumb guesses in a fit of emotional tantrum. Basically, you embarrassed yourself.
Wait, did I say that out loud?
Believers' are what they are.
Oh, ouch. Please, don't hit me again.
My bubble's just fine, thanks. By all means, continue to impress us with your perceptive insights concerning the guitars we've been discussing here for the last ten years. I'm sure there's something we missed.
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 5:13 PM
I'm sure there's something we missed.
Seems to be the case.
Also, every internet forum has it's resident sideline monkey whose only role is to occasionally enter the conversation by flinging poo.
So far, that's been you. Do you have *anything* of substance to say, or is it just all quips and sentence fragments? If so, allow me to offer you this banana in hopes that you'll scurry back up your tree and leave this one to the grown-ups.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:19 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | You know, I have always defended the Celebrity and Applause guitars because I think that for the price, you can't find a better starter guitar. But if you compare the sound to a USA-made Ovation, they don't measure up. As a dealer, I have had both in my shop at the same time, and have had plenty of time to make the comparison. Each time a customer comes in looking for a guitar, I show them what I have in their price range. And there have been many times when a person with a "celebrity wallet" has put a USA Ovation on layaway because they'd rather wait, and get the better sounding (and better made) guitar. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Also, just to head off any hysterics, it's worth noting that I'm a huge Ovie fan, my #'s 1, 2 and 3 are all Ovations and I endure withering mocking from my other fingerstyle friends because of it.
The only reason I think I got 'hostility' from a few folks is because they either failed to comprehend what I had written or were shocked that someone was able to articulate a cogent and insightful opinion without first having spent a decade on this forum drinking kool-aid.
We're all Ovation fans here, for christs sake we're a dwindling breed, lets not fight when no fighting is required. |
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-12 5:21 PM
You know, I have always defended the Celebrity and Applause guitars because I think that for the price, you can't find a better starter guitar. But if you compare the sound to a USA-made Ovation, they don't measure up. As a dealer, I have had both in my shop at the same time, and have had plenty of time to make the comparison. Each time a customer comes in looking for a guitar, I show them what I have in their price range. And there have been many times when a person with a "celebrity wallet" has put a USA Ovation on layaway because they'd rather wait, and get the better sounding (and better made) guitar.
That's probably a totally true anecdote, however I'd propose that instead of formulating any conclusions based on that, you instead take the USA Ovation, two Celebrity Ovations, give them to a musician who you don't know, tell him to make 66 Celebrity/34 USA random sound clips and see if- without knowing what guitar you're hearing to confirm your innate biases- you can 'ear' the USA Ovation by selecting it in randomized sound clips to a degree that exceeds that could be expected with ordinary guesswork.
Plenty of people will insist they can 'ear' differences like Brazilian from East Indian Rosewood, a Mexican from a USA made Stratocaster, a Gibson from an Epiphone Les Paul, some of it gets outright comical like the ones who can 'hear' the difference between a maple and a rosewood fretboard... but of all the people who are just so vocally insistent about this sort of thing when it's free, I've had a real hard time finding one willing come forward with an open wallet and put their money where their mouth is with valid, blind testing criteria in place.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 5:35 PM
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Location: Tennessee | Ummm ... Guitar ... I realize you're new here so you might not want to make assinine assumptions about people of which you know nothing about. Certain people have formulated their conclusions through decades of intimate experience with the Ovation line of guitars. Who knows, some of these people may have even built some of your treasured Ovations. You might be amazed at their knowledge and insight. This is not your average board of opinionated know-nothings. Just sayin'. |
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Location: closely held secret | Guitar,
I neither failed to comprehend what you wrote ('buy the good stiff' gave me some insight into your predilections), nor was I shocked at your articulation.
I was merely having fun building on Brad's list. If you knew anything about this board, you would know it was actually built on members (Brad included) who not only made remarks like that but could dish it right back without getting their feelings hurt. Those people are still my friends.
You in fact were the one who resorted to name calling, insults and character denigration. Maybe you need to grow a thicker skin.
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Location: south east Michigan | Guitar,
So... you want to keep your credentials close to your vest.
Fair enough.
I am amazed by how much, just from my few brief posts, you have been able to deduce about me. This may come to a surprise to OFC members but apparently I'm "dumber than a dried out corn cob." ... a "corksniffer"..."embarassingly mindless" ..and some sort of cultist like "Believer" .... You have to be one of the most insightful janitors I've ever run across.
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-12 6:20 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 5:54 PM
If you knew anything about this board, you would know it was actually built on members (Brad included) who not only made remarks like that but could dish it right back without getting their feelings hurt. Those people are still my friends. You in fact were the one who resorted to name calling, insults and character denigration. Maybe you need to grow a thicker skin.
Gotcha 
I'm all for a bit of raucous discussion. No more name calling from this end, skin thickened up.
I've lurked here for a couple years now, always enjoyed reading (mostly the other forums) and still do.
I'm a pretty passionate rationalist/objectivist type and can get a bit breathless when confronting superstition or irrational beliefs. Ovations are an instrument that absolutely, very credibly has a tone that is quite distinct from wood-bodied instruments. If I proposed a bet that someone couldn't distinguish an Ovation from a Martin in a sound test, I'd have people lined up around the block to take that bet. If someone proposed it to me, I'd snap-call and take that bet.
The interesting part is when you propose there's essentially little to no difference between certain US made instruments and their Asian counterparts, you get the same amount of interest, the same amount of discussion, but for whatever reason, nobody seems willing to stand in that line with their wallet open and take that bet.
Instrument manufacturing economics are very different today with fully mature production facilities in Asia compared to, say, the 1980s, when it was basically just Japan making guitars 120% better for 60% the cost. All the metrics have changed. Specs have been changed to find equilibrium with cost and demand. It's a brave new world.
In this new world of odd production economics- that impacts everything from guitars to tractors to bedsheets- some of the simplifying ideologies of old ("ya get what ye' pay fer!" or "them Orientals make JUNK! compared to what we got here in the USA!") don't hold up.
I'm old enough to remember when we mocked the Japanese for daring to think they could make a guitar or build a car as well as we could.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:30 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 6:19 PM
Guitar,
So... you want to keep your credentials close to your vest.
Fair enough.
I am amazed by how much, just from my few brief posts, you have been able to deduce about me. This may come to a surprise to OFC members but apparently I'm "dumber than a dried out corn cob." ... a "corksniffer"..."embarassingly mindless" ..and some sort of cultist like "Believer" .... You have to be one of the most insightful janitors I've ever run across.
No, I haven't made those deductions about you personally. Just a bit of 'high spirited conversation'.
I'm sure we're all swell guys here, no offense intended, apologies for any offense taken.
I think what's most important is that we not forget we are all on the same side as Ovation fans...
...or, wait. Maybe we aren't all on the same side, since we're probably bidding against each other on those auctions
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:29 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Guitar, I challenge YOU to take your USA Ovation into a Guitar Center, and have random customers listen to you play it, and then a Celebrity, without them looking. Maybe sit behind a screen so they can't see you. Maybe put a bag over the headstock. I GUARANTEE they will be able to tell the difference. |
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Location: Denver, CO | I think Beal's point is significant, and has been completely trampled on here; while we share an emotional bond with the product, from a corporate perspective, the product is simply a means to support the brand. For what it's worth, as a relative guitar neophyte, I have to say there is a noticeable gap in quality between the Celebritys, the new Asian Ovations, and the USA made guitars. I would have never spent my own hard-earned cash on a Celebrity, although I have handled several. But when I first held a USA-made Ovation I was immediately impressed, and I have continued to be impressed with them, tone, volume, fit-and-finish, etc. I for one am at least a little happy with Ovation's market position and perception, because it means that a working-class slob like myself, for less than $1000 can own and play an instrument comparable (in my, as well as many others' opinions) to anything out there costing 3-5 times as much. I could not care less what brand name is on my instrument, and the aesthetics that some find strange kind of fit my style anyway. No cork-sniffing going on over here! |
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-12 6:30 PM
Guitar, I challenge YOU to take your USA Ovation into a Guitar Center, and have random customers listen to you play it, and then a Celebrity, without them looking. Maybe sit behind a screen so they can't see you. Maybe put a bag over the headstock. I GUARANTEE they will be able to tell the difference.
So then if I proposed a $10,000 bet, you'd be willing to take it?
Not making coinflip 50/50 guesses between two instruments and a guy behind a screen, but that you could 'ear' a US Ovation from an array of sound clips involving three guitars, two imports and one US?
That you could 'hear the quality' like your customers do?
Just to reiterate, I'm the one taking the negative position- that tone-ghosts do not exist. The burden is not on me to demonstrate what does not exist (or, prove a negative) It's up to those who believe the affirmative to prove what does exist, using valid criteria.
Anyone with an ounce of scientific literacy can distinguish 'valid testing criteria' from 'invalid testing criteria' so there's little argument there.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 6:38 PM
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Location: south east Michigan | Members here have put together those blind tests.... at least a couple times.
I understand that you are a hard assed "passionate rationalist/objectivist type" so I'm sure it won't phase you when I say that I'm slightly offended by the way you found me to hold "superstition & irrational beliefs"
I stand by my opinion that a $299 Ovation... even with the marvels of modern manufacturing, represents a new low in not only price point, but quality.
I have to say that .... "In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart" ... is the most foolish post to be made here since the days of Glenn Hess.
Edited by Slipkid 2013-09-12 6:46 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Yep. I'm thinking you are either trolling for an argument or perhaps your hearing isn't very good. I mean really, do you think EVERYONE (my customers included) is an "Ovation snob"? Even my 12-year-old student who doesn't know a Martin from a Samick, but she knows what sounds good to her? Or other BEGINNERS who know nothing about guitars, but have TRIED both USA and imported Ovations and, as I said, decided they liked the SOUND of the USA's well enough to put off buying what they could afford, just so they could get "that sound"? I'm serious, if you can't tell the difference, you either have bad ears, or old dead strings on your guitars, or maybe (because each piece of wood has a different sound), you just happened to buy a couple of "dogs". (Even Ovation occasionally made a few.)
Why don't you go out and buy an A-braced Legend, a 1581 Adamas, a Celebrity, and an Applause, then make that clip. Two guitars made in the USA and two made overseas. We'll all be waiting to vote on what we think sounds better. |
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Location: south east Michigan | okay.. if you say so. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-12 6:45 PM
Members here have put together those blind tests.... at least a couple times.
I understand that you are a hard assed "passionate rationalist/objectivist type" so I'm sure it won't phase you when I say that I'm slightly offended by the way you found me to hold "superstition & irrational beliefs"
I stand by my opinion that a $299 Ovation... even with the marvels of modern manufacturing, represents a new low in not only price point, but quality.
I have to say that .... "In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart" ... is the most foolish post to be made here since the days of Glenn Hess.
So, when you say "stand by my opinion" are you the guy willing to step up and take the bet?
Because I'm willing to stand by my opinion AND wager that it's correct.
Or are you the guy who will belabor what we've already been over and ultimately, desist from 'standing by your opinion' when your 'opinion' costs more than free internet posts?
Of course believers are 'offended' when someone comes along to point out that their belief system is bullshit. Their book of excuses is as standard and predictable as the rising sun. The interesting quirk with this particular case, though, is that unlike bigfoot or angels, there's a dead simple way to demonstrate, once and for all, if their beliefs are valid.
James Randi has had the 'Randi Challenge" for years now- I think it's actually up to a million bucks- for anyone who can demonstrate supernatural phenomenon under valid controls. Naturally, the believers just hate-hate-hate his guts, I'm sure they call him a 'troll' yet there he stands, big check in hand and not a damn one has been willing to take it from him. Only the most delusional even bother trying, inevitably crashing and burning, embarrassing themselves and further debasing their belief structure in a big way.
You think that statement is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever heard?
Than I take it you're my man; surely, you're the one to step up, take the bet (since it's just such an absurd assertion and naturally, you'll have no problem) and demonstrate how wrong I am.
Right?
Or, will you just dance around and post excuses?
A common, safe path to get your head out of the logical mousetrap is the old "HRUMPH! You're just a TROLL! I'm not talking to you anymore!"
But if you're my man, shoot me a private message and we can bang out the details.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 7:15 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-12 6:47 PM
Yep. I'm thinking you are either trolling for an argument or perhaps your hearing isn't very good.
Or are you my man?
Are you the one willing to make the bet?
Because I'm hearing a lot of hard talk and big assertions from a couple guys who should be running as fast as they can to take this bet, should their 'beliefs' be valid.... yet they aren't.
They never do. They're over in the corner with the ghost hunters, hollering their beliefs as loudly as possible yet decimated by a simple proposal to demonstrate them under valid testing conditions.
That's the point.
(but if you are, send me that PM. Squealing and whinging 'troll' does nothing to support your beliefs, nor negate a single thing I've said)
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 7:11 PM
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Looks like we don't need to prove you're a troll. You're doing all the heavy lifting for us.
Luckily for both of us, my beliefs don't require your participation.
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 7:18 PM
Looks like we don't need to prove you're a troll. You're doing all the heavy lifting for us.
Luckily for both of us, my beliefs don't require your participation.
How is what I'm saying 'trolling'?
I mean, you can keep chanting that as a mantra, but it eventually arrives at a point when you have to explain why its so (wait... I forgot who I'm dealing with. We can just believe whatever we want regardless of what's true)
You're absolutely correct, though.
You can 'believe' whatever you want. It doesn't mean your beliefs aren't utterly stupid, but you're free to believe them as you please. Just don't be surprised if you openly believe dumb things- or if you base your beliefs on incredibly tenuous logic- when people come along to point it out (and yes, they will judge your intelligence because of it) ... but good thing YOU DON'T CARE!, amirite???
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 7:25 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Finally, an interesting thread... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Ah.....Mr Guitar
The proper word is spoo, ....not poo
Don't get into it with Canterbury, she's probably forgotten more about Ovations than most of the members have learned during their tenure here.
Brad is not a cork sniffer, every time I've been with him it was a screw top, of course, several of those times it was a mason jar.....just sayin.
You know guys, this is gettin to be fun, almost like the old days. Of course, if we have too much fun it will be shut down, just like the old days.
Now as for the imports, some are really good. The issue I have is that a $300 guitar always feels like a $300 piece of spoo (note the proper useage of the word) and a $3000 guitar feels much better. They should sound better too but we know sound is subjective and often people hear with their eyes, especially when looking at the price tag. Anyway, you are a diehard Ovie so you already know all this.
So, now that you've started posting after lurking for two years, welcome.
I never knew Waskel to exhibit primate tendencies but I'll keep an eye out for that.
Now what else do we need investigated? Where is Moody anyway?
Edited by Beal 2013-09-12 7:46 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Feel is definitely a credible reason for picking an instrument.
It's qualitative, but valid. Sometimes, they just don't feel right...
Of course, it's amazing how much a blindfold impacts 'feel', too...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=stradivari... |
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Location: closely held secret | Guitar - 2013-09-12 5:20 PMHow is what I'm saying 'trolling'?
I mean, you can keep chanting that as a mantra, but it eventually arrives at a point when you have to explain why its so (wait... I forgot who I'm dealing with. We can just believe whatever we want regardless of what's true )
You're absolutely correct, though.
You can 'believe' whatever you want. It doesn't mean your beliefs aren't utterly stupid, but you're free to believe them as you please. Just don't be surprised if you openly believe dumb things- or if you base your beliefs on incredibly tenuous logic- when people come along to point it out (and yes, they will judge your intelligence because of it ) ... but good thing YOU DON'T CARE!, amirite???
Actually, no, I really don't care what you think. Why would I? You've waited so long to post, and here you've proven yourself in fewer than a dozen posts to be a totally arrogant, condescending assclown. That's very sad, but it's ok, you're free to do that.
Edited by Waskel 2013-09-12 8:01 PM
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Right, ok Mr Guitar, you're the expert, I'm going back to Florida.......... |
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Location: Utah | Yeah Beal, you better run for the swamps. After all, you wouldn't know anything about them plastic geetars...
My ears are shot. Too many years of flying noisy airplanes and playing loud guitars, plus probably some genetics aren't helping things. But, I can sure tell a Celeb from an AX from a USA by feel and by sight. As an older guy in my 50's I have earned the luxury of affording a few really nice instruments, and dammit they are a pleasure to play. They are far better instruments than I am a musician, no question there. I can hear the difference between a '07C, one of the very best wood topped O's I ever heard or owned, and an Adamas or an old 1970's round hole Patriot or an '05 LX Elite.
A fine instrument is a sensual delight.
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | FlySig - 2013-09-12 8:27 PM A fine instrument is a sensual delight. Ovation guitars are nice, too. 
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Location: Flahdaw | I wonder if Bill Gates would know anything about Windows...??? |
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Location: Da Windy City | It would be interesting if Bill Gates claimed something about what Windows was capable of doing but when TechCrunch published an article that said 'What Bill Gates says is not true. It cannot be proven and we will donate five figures to his favorite charity if he can step up and demonstrate it to be so', I wonder if Bill Gates would just keep quietly chanting mantras to himself, or if he would demonstrate that what he said is indeed correct? |
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Location: Tennessee | I'll take up your challenge.
I'll put up #49, a 1537, and my 1651 JL3. You put up any 6 $300 -AX series guitars you can buy at Guitar Center. We'll record them all completely dry and flat and then do the test. Not only will i get most of them right, there's no doubt in my mind that I'll pick my three out. I'm sure there's more than a few others here that will also want to get in on this. We could raise a LOT of money for charity.
Contact Mark in Boise here on the board (he's a lawyer) and send him the $10K and have him put in trust. When he tells me he has the money, he'll contact me and we'll move forward.
BTW, my favorite charity is Wounded Warriors. They do great work. They're going to be very happy.
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Location: Michigan | meet me at the bike racks after school and we will finish our business then. great thread just like the ole days keep em coming.
down goes frazier !!! down goes frazier !!! GWB |
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Location: Da Windy City | stonebobbo - 2013-09-12 10:15 PM
I'll take up your challenge.
1) I will determine the criteria, not you. I also determine the instruments. No interest in elaborate, bullshit criteria. You think you can 'ear' the difference between a US made Ovation and a Non US Made and are willing to bet on that? Here's your chance.
2) It's a wager, not a 'pledge' or a 'challenge'. I don't have time to run around indulging dumbasses who will simply shrug their shoulders when the results are in and come up with dumb excuses about how they normally can hear it just fine but they had an earache last week, so that must explain why it didn't work this time. You have the same amount of skin in the game that I do and to weed out the morons, it's not an insignificant amount of skin.
3) You, the test and the cash going to the winning party will be recorded and published on http://www.CorkSniffers.com when it goes live.
You seemed to have totally misunderstood the criteria thinking "eh, its free, I'll give it a go!" but if we're clear that this requires us both to post the wager in advance, shoot me a PM and we can get the details underway. No need for escrow. I travel, will bring cash and am not worried about the outcome. We're working on a list of 'money where their mouth is' guys as we speak, all across the guitar world. You want to represent Ovations and bet you can 'ear' American from Non American Ovations, great. It's a date. Congrats, you'd be the first one. So far, everyone else has buckled when go time comes. A few that take it right up to the edge of following through, then excuse themselves with one bullshit pretext or another, one "I Can Hear The Difference Between a Rosewood and Maple Fretboard" guy took it all the way but simply didn't show up for the test and wouldn't answer our calls (it's some funny video, I promise ) I'm pretty sure that in time, though, we'll be able to get enough people to actually follow through.
Delusions can run deep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
I'm actually in NorCal from time to time so if you're anywhere near the Bay Area, I have no problem offering home field advantage. Anyway, send me that PM.
Looking forward to it.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 11:00 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Hey now...
Guitar brought Beal and Waskel, Bobbo and Bob G. MIB and GWB, FlySig and Allison, AstroDan and Al, outta the woodwork.
Good work! Say something else really stupid and wake-up some more Old Farts. 
We could be rolling around to get members from the other hemisphere too.
As well as the early morning MotherShip crew.
(forgive me if I missed anybody... But y'all are invited to vent your piece)
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-12 10:47 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-12 10:34 PM
Say something else really stupid
What have I said thus far that was 'really stupid'?
So far, we have two guys who ran their mouths then scurried off when a wager was proposed, and a guy who most likely completely misread what was happening here and thought it was a free-to-play game (and now that he realizes it's not, well, lets just see what happens...).
I'd say the context clues suggest I'm not the one who's saying 'stupid stuff' here. Stupid people willing to bet on stupid ideas have an endless stream of takers willing to assist them in going broke yet you're 0-3 so far.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 10:52 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I betchya ain't got a pot to piss in.... Hows that for a bet.
Oh yeah... there is an ignore button.
Silly me, I haven't had to use it in years.
Just like the goo-dole-daze.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-12 10:59 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-12 10:54 PM
I betchya ain't got a pot to piss in.... Hows that for a bet.
... now here's your banana ... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-12 2:01 PM
Mark in Boise - 2013-09-12 10:32 AM
Waskel reappears for a quick jab. I would never have guessed lawyer.
Nothing personal, Mark. But you know that...
I know. Just good to see you and fun to see the pot stirred up a bit. |
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Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | arthurseery - 2013-09-13 1:34 PM
Hey now...
We could be rolling around to get members from the other hemisphere too.
Sorry OMA, I don't want to waste any effort on the wanker.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Ovation makes a nice mid pried guitar. To some mid price is $300. To some its $1500. To others its $3500. Wherever you are on that scale ovation has a guitar for you if thats what you choose to buy. Of couse there are many other choices out there.
After all the posturing, name calling, baiting, and wagering it is far more often true than not that "you get what you pay for for". Exceptions exist but generally not many.
Going back to the original post, there is a reason the guitar in question sells for $300. And I doubt that it's because it sounds and plays as well as a similar USA model. I could be wrong but probably not.
Click. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Standingovation - 2013-09-12 11:39 PM
Going back to the original post, there is a reason the guitar in question sells for $300.
Yeah. Because I can hop on Ali Baba and hire a Chinese Factory to make it for 1/8th the cost of what an American factory would pay make the *exact* same thing.
Take an Asian made Ovation into Ovation USA and ask them what it would would retail be if they made that exact guitar here in the US, it would miraculously line up with what retail happens to be on USA Ovations.
I realize not everyone understands global market dynamics- and some companies are pretty sharp in ensuring that their overseas imports are built to a slightly lower spec while the US models get the 'superfluous attention to irrelevant detail' treatment that doesn't translate into a better sounding guitar, but creates the 'high priced option' that is a marketing requirement, since a portion of your buyers will always demand to pay more for the sense that they're getting something better.
"The Japanese will never make a better car than Ford... Ever. The Japs make junk, always have, always will... B'sides, they cost less and you get what you pay for. No gettin' around that!" - A common saying around car manufacturers back during the years when Ovations were at their height of popularity.
Oops.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 11:57 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | But, we're going in circles now.
Criteria are above. Anyone wants to step up and take it, the PM button is right over there <--
Otherwise, I don't have much interest in pursing this discussion any further (unless someone comes along and just insists we do )
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 11:47 PM
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | <p>edit***</p><p> </p><p>never mind</p>
Edited by AstroDan 2013-09-12 11:54 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | AstroDan - 2013-09-12 11:51 PM
edit*** never mind
OK, edit me too.
(you're quick on that edit button. I was in the middle of replying )
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-12 11:55 PM
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | OK. I'll post it then. When you get this guy on the hook Bobbo, I'm in. how about total of 20 for WW?
Give me a call when it's set up. |
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Location: Da Windy City | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 12:17 AM
OK. I'll post it then. When you get this guy on the hook Bobbo, I'm in. how about total of 20 for WW?
Give me a call when it's set up.
You're wagering another 10?
Because fine. You can pay your 'winnings' to whoever you want or you can keep them.
Bet accepted, but you do have to show up with the cash or a cashiers check. We're already going to be embarrassing the living **** out of one poor guy who talked awfully big on the internet but didn't 'meet at the flagpole' when the time came. As hilarious as the video is (us driving by his house and honking holding Telecasters out the window), it's not something that's funny over and over and over again with multiple idiots. Once is enough, the lesson was learned that the criteria for action has to be more solid before any time is wasted on our end. There are just too many people willing to talk big when its free, in the hopes it's all just a big joke...
Otherwise, if you thought this was a $10,000 freeroll where I set it all up and you 'take a shot' with no skin in the game just cuz you had nothing better to do on a Saturday afternoon... forgive me for chuckling at a grown man who can't read.
But the wager, sure. As noted for the fifth time now, it's open to any takers. PM button is right over <-- there.
Setting it up is the easy part.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 12:29 AM
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | Do you act like this on other forums, or just this one? My skin in the game is my 10k, along with Bobs.
Do you have any idea who some of the folks, that you've blithely dismissed in here, are?
Kinda pathetic. But entertaining, for sure.
Thanks |
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Location: Da Windy City | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 12:28 AM
Do you act like this on other forums, or just this one? My skin in the game is my 10k, along with Bobs.
Do you have any idea who some of the folks, that you've blithely dismissed in here, are?
Kinda pathetic. But entertaining, for sure.
Thanks
Great!
Send me that PM. We have a lot of details to work out, but I have a feeling you're alone on this one.
Bob seems to have thought it was just a 'challenge' with some kind of donation, because I made a post about a hypothetical response to Bill Gates and, well, as we've seen quite recently, some people ain't such good readers.
But as noted, PM button's <-- right there.
Looking forward to it.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 12:31 AM
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Location: Da Windy City | Oh, and for whatever it's worth, this is the last time I discuss something that's been covered.
Hit me with a PM, just need to verify some basic stuff (like, that you're a real person), work out a few logistics, you have to sign a release that we can use the video of you on the site, a contract that says you're participating and liable for our costs if you don't show up per specification and that's basically it. Easy peazy. To be clear, it's not "I can distinguish the polyphonic signatures between four guitars I've owned for 10 years and some are US and some aren't".
It's whether or not you can 'hear' a US instrument against a couple non US instruments when you've never heard those instruments before. Since one will be considerably more expensive than the others, naturally, the implication is that yes, you can, since you believe that cost is justified and one is distinctly better than the other. 100 sound samples, to preclude 'lucky guesswork', you have to beat mean chance expectation by 30%, twice.
Looking forward to hearing from ya, but totally tired of discussing it. PM button's right there <--
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 12:52 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | Guitar - 2013-09-13 1:29 AM
Bob seems to have thought it was just a 'challenge' with some kind of donation, because I made a post about a hypothetical response to Bill Gates and, well, as we've seen quite recently, some people ain't such good readers.
Hey now...there's a coupla different Bobs on this forum. Don't count on any money from me, I got a new house to buy. (I'm content to just lob a few spoo grenades from behind a wall when I see an opening...) |
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Location: Thredbo, NSW, Australia | Guitar - 2013-09-13 3:44 PM
Blah, blah, blah
Guitar. I've had the good fortune to be a member of OFC for just over a year. In that time I've asked for advice, and received a variety of opinions. All with good intentions, and all of them were and are sage advice.
I do my best to absorb and utilise what is given. And I continue to be amazed by the incredible knowledge of people here, such as OMApedia (my name for him), who is a wealth of knowledge, but more importantly is incredibly generous with that knowledge. Here am I some unknown from the southern hemisphere, and I continue to benefit from OMA's views, advice and suggestions.
This is not the place to showcase academic achievements, but I am actually a doctor of knowledge management (PhD). I work in both academic and corporate arenas. At OFC I witness the epitome of knowledge sharing and the knowledge management that all of the top 500 corporations strive to achieve - but few attain.
All of this is for no material gain to the giver. But the vast majority of the people who participate here do so for the love of and respect for the instruments to which you yourself acknowledge are great guitars.
If you don't like the views of the people here, just leave quietly - but respect their views.
Banjo.
Edited by BanjoJ 2013-09-13 6:58 AM
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Can't wait to get below the Mason-Dumbass line
Had enough of this northern expert with his specific and exacting mind
Click.
Edited by Beal 2013-09-13 7:31 AM
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Location: NJ | Okay, being that it's Friday th'13th, I'll use my Annual Increment to My PostCount:
This AssClown's Vernacular Verbosity is Exceeded ONLY by his Grating Demeanour.
Decorum usually dictates that One should "mingle" & get t'KNOW th'Hosts/Guests BEFORE Shitting in th'PunchBowl . . .
(click.)
- Sorry Today's not gonna'Work for You t'StopBy on yer Trip DownSowf, Beal. NextTime . . .
Edited by cliff 2013-09-13 9:48 AM
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Location: Da Windy City | BanjoJ - 2013-09-13 6:46 AM
If you don't like the views of the people here, just leave quietly - but respect their views.
Your premise is flawed which is pretty funny for someone with a "PhD in Knowledge Management".
What I am confronting is not 'the views of the people here'. There are plenty of totally rational people here.
It's the 'views' of one particular subset. You ask me to 'respect' those 'opinions'? My respect for those 'views' couldn't be any lower than if they were Bigfoot hunters or Spirit Chasers (I'll leave out a few highly popular dumb superstitions from that list)
Most annoying is that they tend to be the most pompous, obnoxious subset out there, sincerely believing that they own magic talismans and whenever some honest kid comes along to point out where his low import really didn't sound all that different from the expensive ones, THEY are the ones who mock and belittle HIM.
I've been watching this for years across guitar forum after guitar forum after guitar forum, where a vocal group of delusional 'believers' smugly positions themselves 'above' others simply because they paid (X) for an instrument in an expected act of ordinary confirmation bias, insist they did so beacause they can 'perceive' a profound difference. Frankly, I've totally tired of watching it. Superstitions of all kind are counterproductive, be they belief in Chupacabra or belief in the Magic Tone Angels kept in glass bottles at US Guitar Makers.
For whatever its worth, there are no PM's in that inbox right over <-- there.
Ask yourself why.
Ask yourself why if I proposed a wager that one couldn't distinguish an Ovation from a Martin and offered $10K, that box would be full right now, yet as we sit here and not, not single one of those loud 'believers' in magic-tone or a practical distinction in nation-of-origin is willing to stand up for their beliefs when it gets beyond the realm of inane internet prattle.
As noted, I hate no further interest in 'discussing' this.
At this point, if I can find the 'Kiai Master' willing to actually get in a mixed martial arts ring and wager the money, they know how to be in touch. This threads no longer proceeds under my interest. I have no problem letting it die, but I'll happily respond. If these idiots want to keep bumping it up and wondering why it doesn't turn out so well for them, that's their own problem.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 12:15 PM
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Guitar - 2013-09-12 10:40 PM
Take an Asian made Ovation into Ovation USA and ask them what it would would retail be if they made that exact guitar here in the US, it would miraculously line up with what retail happens to be on USA Ovations.
But that's the fatal flaw in your arguement - if the USA shop built that guitar indeed it would cost 2-3x more. It may actually sound the same or similar but it would lack the razor sharp fret dress, the epoxied in dovetail and the paint and glue splatters on the inside.
If those details don't matter, then buy the import version. I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what is your point of discontent
- USA charges premium prices for quality that does not necessarily improve the sound?
- Asian labor rates and working conditions are poor?
- Many people buy with their eyes and heart rather than their ears?
What excatly is your point?
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Guitar - 2013-09-13 1:04 PM
Ask yourself why.
Ask yourself why if I proposed a wager that one couldn't distinguish an Ovation from a Martin and offered $10K, that box would be full right now, yet as we sit here and not, not single one of those loud 'believers' in magic-tone or a practical distinction in nation-of-origin is willing to stand up for their beliefs when it gets beyond the realm of inane internet prattle.
The bottom line is you haven't established any credibility or integrity here, so nobody wants to play your silly game where you (and your obvious bias) control all of the variables. |
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Location: Da Windy City | dvd - 2013-09-13 12:37 PM
The bottom line is you haven't established any credibility or integrity here, so nobody wants to play your silly game where you (and your obvious bias) control all of the variables.
You suck at understanding how 'science' works. I'm guessing you work in a liberal arts field (or, with a shovel of some kind)
The 'variables' are neutral. They're not biased to my position.
If the narrative that one can 'hear' a US made guitar were to be true, then the proposal would have absolutely have no problem whatsoever determining the credible tonal difference. If we used the exact same criteria only the question were "Can You Identify This Ovation From a Ukulele", it would yield a spectacularly positive result because there's a credible difference there.
As far as credibility, I did post the website this will be posted on and I've offered to travel, once we verify basic stuff (for example, we have AstroDan playing one dollar ($1) online poker MTTs, not exactly the realm of someone seriously willing to step up and bet ten grand. In his case, verifying the financials on his end would be a big part)... but if that's the 'out' someone needs to keep on believing in angels, then so be it.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 1:32 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Standingovation - 2013-09-13 12:25 PM
What excatly is your point?
That you cannot 'hear' the difference between a US and an Import. Try reading the thread.
As far as the US building an Asian guitar proposal, I'm really tired of holding peoples hands for repeated walks down Reading Compression Lane. Your response did not align with what I said.
On stuff like Les Pauls, the Epiphones are built to 100% spec of the Gibsons. There is literally no difference other than nation of origin but just like kook believers everywhere, in every niche, they all insist there is, but none of them are willing to demonstrate their faith.
Same thing with MIM Fender Strats, MIA Fender Strats and even whatever difference they insist they can 'hear' in something like a "Masterbuilt.
It's not like the phenomenon is unique to the quitar world. There's even a clinical term for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
In order to eliminate confirmation bias to determine credible efficacy, the gold standard is the blind test and establishing someones 'opinion' in that context. Most people trend inherently irrational, are easily manipulated by certain cues and/or are intellectually oriented by confirmation bias.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 1:29 PM
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | 
As a reminder... This was the Original Post:
Brad Durasa - 2013-09-07 2:41 PM
I stopped in to our local, independent music store to just kick some tires.
This is where I have played and purchased a couple ovations.
They have stocked AD-II, milleniun, 30th anniversary, and some adamii.
The four ovations they have left have been banished from the acoustic room and now hang on the wall accompanied by the lowest of the low imports.
****sigh****
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Location: south east Michigan | Giter,
As trolls go you are quite articulate and well spoken.
.
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.... you're welcome.
.
Your ability to take responses and pick & choose parts out of context is admirable.
You'd do well on a debate team. Your talents are wasted here.
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Location: Da Windy City | I realize "TROLL" eventually becomes a mantra to people trying desperately to maintain a stupid belief system, and I've seen pretty clearly that there are a few people here operating in the short-bus IQ range- I'm doing my best to just ignore them- but really, you guys can do better than squealing 'troll'.
You can chant it all you wish, but it's still not just as baseless as your beliefs in magical tone.
This is not trolling. It's pointing out a gigantic fallacy that exists among some people, then demonstrating just how totally indefensible and weak their position is with even the slightest scrutiny.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 1:36 PM
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I may not be able to pick a Balladeer out of a group of Celebs, but I do know a troll when I see one.
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Location: Da Windy City | ^ See? ^
Totally ignoring him.
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Location: south east Michigan | You don't have to try so hard.
You had me at "gigantic fallacy". |
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Location: Da Windy City | Brad Durasa - 2013-09-13 1:37 PM
You don't have to try so hard.
You had me at "gigantic fallacy".
There does come a point where a large group of stupid believers just starts making an *** of itself.
You guys are rapidly devolving into squealing 'troll' and making dumb quips.
It ain't lookin' good fer ya... |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Guitar - 2013-09-13 2:16 PM
You suck at understanding how 'science' works. I'm guessing you work in a liberal arts field (or, with a shovel of some kind)
Wow, you got all of that all from a mere 31 words? You're a genius!
The 'variables' are neutral. They're not biased to my position.
You said yourself, "1) I will determine the criteria, not you. I also determine the instruments."
Your blind test may work fine to help eliminate confirmation bias, but we'd need to go double-blind to eliminate your biases. I think a fellow ditch-digger mentioned that to me once.
Good luck trolling for suckers for your awesome website.
I should have listened to the (click)'s |
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Location: Utah | Corksniffer? Me? Never been called that before, usually people use some combination of "cheap" "bastard" and "drama queen" to describe me. (OMA called me an Old Fart earlier). But if its true I'm a corksniffer, I'm ok with it. Though the T can have a bit of a petroleum odor, and the Adamas has no odor at all. The best is the Hamer Newport, especially after it has been in the case for a while.
There are worse things to be, like a Cork Soaker. |
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| This is some excitement and I'm really proud of the moderators letting things go as they are. These are both big boys that can take care of themselves and if this does get done, I will be REALLY interested in the result. |
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Location: Michigan | careful guitar online betting is an illegal thing to do on someones website and could get the owners of the site in some trouble .
if the moderators find out you are trying to make $ bets $ on their website that might get you kicked off it for good and we wouldn't want to see something like that happen to you. GWB |
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| guitarwannabee
From a legal standpoint, this would be a gentlemans wager and since OFC is not an agent and not directly participating in the exchange nor accepting any part of the assets exchanged, they are not liable. Think of how many golf wagers occur on a daily basis, does that make the country clubs criminally liable? I'm sure you're not so obtuse that you don't see the distinction between this interaction and an online casino.
fait le bon temps rouler
Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-13 2:57 PM
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Location: Michigan | i think that a bet on a golf course with a few friends verses advertising to the 10,000 ofcer's and everybody on the w.w.w. might be a bit different but i am not a lawyer so you're right i don't know.
either way my point was missed. GWB |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Think of all the money this troll could make if, as he claims, he has THREE USA Ovations! If those $300 Celebrities sound just as good, why doesn't he Ebay his USA O's and then take all the money and go buy a Celeb? I mean, heck he could buy six or eight Celebs with the money he would make! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | either way my point was missed. GWB
Now it wasn't.... I got it!
*********************
edit for time and clarity
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-13 3:17 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | It actually was something we considered, especially since travel is a possibility.
States handle it differently. Some states, you can bet however much you want on whatever you want so long as its not a game of chance and there's an element of 'skill' involved. This test would be the definition of 'skill'.
It's entirely possible, though, that if we got a serious taker in some bible-belt state that had hysterical laws in regards to this sort of thing and make it some kind of crime, it would require doing it someplace else.
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Location: Da Windy City | dvd - 2013-09-13 1:51 PM
Your blind test may work fine to help eliminate confirmation bias, but we'd need to go double-blind to eliminate your biases.
May need to go have another talk with that ditch digger...
My biases cannot influence the results, since the control groups, the testing criteria are fully quantifiable. This is not a confirmation test, it's an inversion test. There is no way to project bias to influence the results, since they're purely mathematical.
33 Control A
33 Control B
34 Control C
If we brought in a Chimpanzee who was trained to hit a button labeled 1, 2 or 3- that corresponded with the guitars being tested- every time a testing cue was actuated (strum a chord, the chimp gets a grape after he hits one of the three buttons), that Chimpanzee would be expected to get in the neighborhood of 30% correct without even knowing what a guitar was, just that grapes taste really good and when he hits a button after a noise, he gets one.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 3:28 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-13 3:14 PM
Think of all the money this troll could make if, as he claims, he has THREE USA Ovations!
Where did I claim I have THREE USA Ovations?
Is it because I said this?
my #'s 1, 2 and 3 are all Ovations
... and in yet another spectacular failure of reading comprehension you read that as I own THREE USA OVATIONS!!!
Sometimes, I wonder why the chemicals under the sink have instructions on the side, warning people not to drink them. I've always wondered just who it is they're talking to when they feel the need to say "Don't drink this Pine Cleaner".
The more and more I participate in this thread, the more and more I'm starting to see why they do that.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 3:43 PM
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Guitar - 2013-09-13 4:26 PM
Also, just to head off any hysterics, it's worth noting that I'm a huge Ovie fan, my #'s 1, 2 and 3 are all Ovations and I endure withering mocking from my other fingerstyle friends because of it.
The only reason I think I got 'hostility' from a few folks is because they either failed to comprehend what I had written or were shocked that someone was able to articulate a cogent and insightful opinion without first having spent a decade on this forum drinking kool-aid.
We're all Ovation fans here, for christs sake we're a dwindling breed, lets not fight when no fighting is required.
Where did you say you had THREE Ovations? Right here. Getting a bit confused? |
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings - 2013-09-13 3:42 PM
Getting a bit confused?
Yeah. We already established that. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Guitar - 2013-09-13 4:21 PM
My biases cannot influence the results [...]
If you -- as the person who "determines the criteria" and "determines the instruments" -- can't see any way to influence the results, then perhaps you're just another liberal arts shovel jockey like me. Do I really need to provide examples of how you can skew the results?
You've established a hypothesis, but you haven't demonstrated that your "experiment" adequately addresses both subject and experimenter bias. I take that back, you haven't even established a hypothesis that would stand up to any level of peer review.
I had somebody read that to me off of a fortune cookie, I think. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | You know, I think this clown must be a ringer from the Taylor forum. Or maybe it works for Guitar Center. It could even be a factory worker from overseas who is tired of building inferior guitars.
But I'd put my money on the Taylor forum. Who was that "Doctor" over there who kept trashing Ovations a few years ago? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | You've established a hypothesis, but you haven't demonstrated that your "experiment" adequately addresses both subject and experimenter bias. I take that back, you haven't even established a hypothesis that would stand up to any level of peer review.
I had somebody read that to me off of a fortune cookie, I think.
Been watching the Big Bang Theory?
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-13 3:48 PM
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Location: Central Massachusetts | arthurseery - 2013-09-13 4:46 PM
Been watching the Big Bang Theory?
Art, I would, but I can't figure out how to turn on this TV thingie. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | So you're saying you only own imported Ovations? That would explain a lot. You're so jealous of the better instruments that you have to trash them. One of those guys who, instead of making himself bigger, tries to make everyone else smaller. Here's what you need to do - get yourself a decent guitar, and for God's sake, take some lessons. If you practice really hard, maybe someday you'll be able to play it.
Sorry guys. I know I'm feeding the troll, but I'm between lessons right now and it's so amusing. I should treat this clown like any other scammer or telemarketer and just "click", but... |
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Location: Da Windy City | dvd - 2013-09-13 3:45 PM
I had somebody read that to me off of a fortune cookie, I think.
Must have since the minor part that isn't just gibberish is completely incorrect.
Don't lose track of that shovel...
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Location: Da Windy City | CanterburyStrings -
has THREE USA Ovations!
CanterburyStrings -
had THREE Ovations?
CanterburyStrings -
only own imported Ovations?
Swingandamiss... Strike Three. You've officially proven yourself to be demonstrably stupid.
Perhaps you might want to stop embarrassing yourself and spend a little more time in the batting cages.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 4:23 PM
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Guitar - 2013-09-13 4:54 PM
dvd - 2013-09-13 3:45 PM
I had somebody read that to me off of a fortune cookie, I think.
Must have since the minor part that isn't just gibberish is completely incorrect.
Don't lose track of that shovel...
Which part are you refuting? Your response is non-responsive. |
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Location: Da Windy City | dvd - 2013-09-13 4:03 PM
Which part are you refuting? Your response is non-responsive.
It was a non-response. I apologize for that. I shouldn't lower myself to the level of the people I've been mocking for the past two pages for doing exactly that. I'm just tiring of having this conversation with '"this particular group" and at least you're making an effort to address substance instead of the tardfarm above who's just howling "troll" and creating hysterical mental constructs about how I'm some sort of interloper from another forum.
Anyway, this
You've established a hypothesis, but you haven't demonstrated that your "experiment" adequately addresses both subject and experimenter bias. I take that back, you haven't even established a hypothesis that would stand up to any level of peer review.
Is incorrect. First off, 'peer review' is no problem here. If you don't understand that, then this conversation is inherently over your head.
Secondly, in a similar vein, I haven't 'established' any hypothesis. My position is inherently contra to existing hypothesis/narrative. I am the one challenging the hypothesis, not establishing it. It's time for the people who affirm (X) to demonstrate (X) under valid controls...
Ahh, but that's always the hang-up with believers. What constitutes "valid controls"?
I propose the same methodologically standard testing rigor that put a man on the moon or that scientists everywhere use to demonstrate efficacy of medicines... They then predictably say it somehow 'invalid'. One can't help but laugh.
Also, please explain just how I can infuse bias into an experiment that is controlled entirely by a subject responding to three static criteria? There are some incredibly weird examples I can theoretically conceive of (in the realm of serious, magician-like fakery) , but I'd like to hear your thoughts of just where the 'weakness' is.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 4:26 PM
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Nobody else has established a hypothesis here. Just you. You are the one saying that "you cannot hear the difference between an import and a US ovation". Sorry, that's YOUR hypothesis, dude. You need to flush it out by defining who "who" is... the general population, guitar players, Ovation guitar players, Ovation Fan Club Members, Ovation Fan Club Members who have played more than 10 guitars, Ovation Fan Club Members who have built more than 10 guitars? You need to define that. Completely changes the hypothesis.
As the "experimenter" and the one who chooses the instruments, you can choose/manipulate the instruments to enforce your bias. Like Al said, you can play 20 imports and find one that sounds especially nice. They are definitely out there. Any of us can find a USA-made O that sounds like crap. You can put dead strings on the USA O's and bright fresh strings on the imports. You can come up with any number of ways to compare apples and oranges. Whoever plays the instruments can intentionally, or unintentionally, bias the results via their playing style. I'll stop here, but you get my drift.
Anyway, good luck with your wager, and thank you for responding more appropriately. Honestly, if you had spent more time interacting here and building up some trust, your wager would have been more well received. (See MusicMishka's blind tests, for example.) However, you chose to come in here like a bull in a china shop and talk down to people that you don't even know. And then you act surprised/superior when people are responding to you accordingly. Telling us that you are going to post the results to your website don't help your credibility, they just enforce that you have something to prove.
As for me, I can definitely hear the difference between my favorite USA wood-top O that I paid $500 for over my old import that I paid $300 for. If that makes me a cork sniffer, so be it. I'm not interested in proving or disproving anything.
Go play your guitar!
Thanks |
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Location: Da Windy City | dvd - 2013-09-13 4:29 PM
Nobody else has established a hypothesis here. Just you. You are the one saying that "you cannot hear the difference between an import and a US ovation".
Well, we probably don't need to discuss this much further since in your very first sentence, you basically say the onus is on me to prove what does not exist. That's called asking someone to 'prove a negative' and it's not how logic works.
Someone affirms something. In this case, that there's a very credible and demonstrable tonal difference between imports and US made instruments.
Someone points out it isn't true.
The realm of infinite possibility precludes him from proving what is not, however those in the affirmative position should be able to prove what is.
So far, in the guitar world, the 'proof' has amounted to anecdotal confirmation bias nonsense- people insisting that they've heard the angels. So we go the blind test to establish efficacy and suddenly, all things fall silent, or the believers start whinging and shouting TROLL! TROLL! HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE OUR BELIEFS! JUST GO AWAY TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!
Its pathetic.
The position you're taking amounts to desperate flailing, typing words in the hope that the simplest, most standard way to clarify such questions might be made hazy. For this peanut gallery, it just may work. For anyone with a brain, it would get chuckled off, stage left. The only people who 'struggle' with just how to answer this question seem to be the ones who are dug into believing one particular side of it and are a bit desperate to ensure their particular belief system isn't objectively scrutinized.
If you want to keep on believing in Santa, go ahead. There are people who agree. NORAD even has an annual "Santa Tracker".
But lets end on something we agree on.
Playing guitar is a helluva lot more fun than having this conversation
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 4:44 PM
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-13 4:10 PM
Also, please explain just how I can infuse bias into an experiment that is controlled entirely by a subject responding to three static criteria? There are some incredibly weird examples I can theoretically conceive of (in the realm of serious, magician-like fakery) , but I'd like to hear your thoughts of just where the 'weakness' is.
Before we talk about bias, we'd have to talk about what precisely is the "USA" sound we are supposed to "ear". As I've said, my ears are hammered by I sure as heck can tell apart many different models from within the Ovation/Adamas family. I can sure as heck tell a good Martin from a good Ovation, they just sound different.
But 3 guitars which I have never heard? With identical strings? Factory standard setups? (As a corksniffer I am aware that a good setup improves intonation). Have they all been played a lot, and recently, so they are fully opened up? How about humidification? Are they all equally and within reasonable tolerances adequately humidified?
Funny, you wouldn't do a test with Bobbo and his guitars. But you mock us for questioning if you provided the guitars? |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-13 4:10 PM
Secondly, in a similar vein, I haven't 'established' any hypothesis. My position is inherently contra to existing hypothesis/narrative. I am the one challenging the hypothesis, not establishing it. It's time for the people who affirm (X) to demonstrate (X) under valid controls...
Uh, actually you started the flow of hypotheses with this post:
Guitar - 2013-09-11 9:09 PM
In the year 2013, a $299 instrument often has no appreciable, practical difference from it's $3000 counterpart
So, my position is inherently contra to your existing hypothesis/narrative. I am the one challenging your hypothesis, not establishing it. It is time for you, who affirms there is no appreciable, practical difference between a $299 instrument and a $3000 instrument, to demonstrate it, under valid controls..... |
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Location: Flahdaw | Guitar - 2013-09-13 2:39 PM
There does come a point where a large group of stupid believers just starts making an *** of itself.
Sometimes it's just one.... |
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Funny, you wouldn't do a test with Bobbo and his guitars. But you mock us for questioning if you provided the guitars?
Because I never claimed that people can't familiarize themselves with polyphonic differences that exist between instruments after decades of use. The implication of my position is that one cannot 'hear' a random US guitar from a random non US guitar to any degree of repeatability, which is a pretty meaningful observation given their disparity in cost and the number of people who insist they can.
Believers shrieked.
Test proposed.
Nonsense ensued.
FlySig - 2013-09-13 5:05 PM
It is time for you, who affirms there is no appreciable, practical difference...
See the word "no" in that sentence?
That's the whole 'prove a negative' thing. My position is inherently contra, not affirmative.
I like conversing, debating, but I really don't have patience for elaborate discussions with people who continually demonstrate a need for a refresher course on 7th grade logic. It just gets tiring after a while. You're in the middle of a conversation about stuff that you apparently just completely do not even begin understand (which has been a theme in this thread...) I thought we had a legitimate conversational player in DVD but my hopes were dashed.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 5:24 PM
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | You know Guitar. You've convinced me. You win. I think I'll just make a donation to WW and be done with it.
Then I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I certainly wouldn't want you, or anyone else in here to think I'm a cork-sniffer, ditch-digger or any other type of cretin.
There can be no doubt that I am incapable of discerning the sound difference between, say, my 1537 or that new(ish) 1617ALE to a nice Korean model. Not to mention feel.
Whew, just think of all the future funds I'll save.
Mostly, I'll back off because I have no desire to meet you IRl and don't trust you not to try to rob me.
Have a nice day. |
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Location: Da Windy City | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 5:25 PM
You know Guitar. You've convinced me. You win. I think I'll just make a donation to WW and be done with it.
Then I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I certainly wouldn't want you, or anyone else in here to think I'm a cork-sniffer, ditch-digger or any other type of cretin.
There can be no doubt that I am incapable of discerning the sound difference between, say, my 1537 or that new(ish) 1617ALE to a nice Korean model. Not to mention feel.
Whew, just think of all the future funds I'll save.
Mostly, I'll back off because I have no desire to meet you IRl and don't trust you not to try to rob me.
Have a nice day.
Okie Dokie. |
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Location: closely held secret | I shouldn't have called you a troll. It's really not fair to trolls.
What you are is the lowest form of internet vermin. An anonymous bully. You spout off a theory, dare anyone to prove you wrong, then call them a bunch of cowards because they won't cough up a measly 10K for your game.
In fact, it was your hypothesis, and if you really cared about that, you could certainly set up some tests and prove it yourself. That would be much more valid than making an empty claim with no basis, and you could come here and provide some data showing a very low likelihood of anyone being able to tell the difference (due to chance, it will never be impossible). Apparently you're not willing to take that chance with your own time and money. And that's not really your purpose here, is it?
And it's so safe to do in the anonymity of the internet. Much safer than, say, swaggering into a biker bar and shouting, "Hey! I'll bet 10 thousand dollars - and I wanna see cash here - none of you can tell the difference between a pair of Vance & Hines Twin Slashes and Akrapovics! What? No takers? Buncha whiney cowards!"
Here, you say what you like, insult who you like, condescend, demean and belittle who you like with virtually no consequences. In the biker bar, you probably die.
"Anonymity is to cowardice what Viagra is to impotence."
Compensate much?
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | AstroDan - 2013-09-13 3:25 PM
I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports.
I'll trade you a FINE Chinese Cedar-topped Contour Bowl Celebrity for that crappy '07C you've got.
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Wow. Just was informed who you Guitar actually ARE.
Well played, my friend. Very well played. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-13 6:07 PM
I shouldn't have called you a troll. It's really not fair to trolls.
What you are is the lowest form of internet vermin. An anonymous bully. You spout off a theory, dare anyone to prove you wrong, then call them a bunch of cowards because they won't cough up a measly 10K for your game.
In fact, it was your hypothesis, and if you really cared about that, you could certainly set up some tests and prove it yourself. That would be much more valid than making an empty claim with no basis, and you could come here and provide some data showing a very low likelihood of anyone being able to tell the difference (due to chance, it will never be impossible ). Apparently you're not willing to take that chance with your own time and money. And that's not really your purpose here, is it?
And it's so safe to do in the anonymity of the internet. Much safer than, say, swaggering into a biker bar and shouting, "Hey! I'll bet 10 thousand dollars - and I wanna see cash here - none of you can tell the difference between a pair of Vance & Hines Twin Slashes and Akrapovics! What? No takers? Buncha whiney cowards!"
Here, you say what you like, insult who you like, condescend, demean and belittle who you like with virtually no consequences. In the biker bar, you probably die.
"Anonymity is to cowardice what Viagra is to impotence."
Compensate much?
Is it worth making a detailed response to this?
*flips coin*
Guess not this time.
Will just say that most of your assertions made in that post are about as accurate and insightful as your beliefs about guitars. Some of it was so incoherent, you might want to see if you're not having some kind of stroke.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:24 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Standingovation - 2013-09-13 6:17 PM
Wow. Just was informed who you Guitar actually ARE.
Well played, my friend. Very well played.
I haven't been hiding who I "actually" am.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:24 PM
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| I have to say that the more I read 'Guitar's' posts, the more I respect him. He is only asking that persons claiming a night and day difference between the manufacturers prove it. I am totally sympathetic to this because I almost lost a fortune on a chip amp design precisely for this kind of preconception. Now, even the highest end amp producers don't shy away from using op-amps in their hi-fi systems. I don't doubt there are a few people capable of hearing the difference but more likely will be the ability to feel it. I have seen 'golden ear' types humbled and humiliated in double blind hi-fi stereo tests. The reactions afterwards have ranged from indignation and accusations of cheating to 'I'm feeling slightly stuffy today' backtracking. If you even suspect you are a blusterer, fess up now and save yourself the grief because I WILL join in the arrow slinging party. 'Guitar', I'd be honored to be considered your ally. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Gmaslin:
The book of 'believer excuses' is always the same.
It looks just like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjC64cnxl0k
^ that ^.
Every time.
Always.
Literally identical to whats depicted in that video, every time, like clockwork, regardless of what 'irrational belief' is being tested.
When people deeply believe in irrational things, they expectedly resent everyone who challenges their delusions but more importantly, for those who actually submit to testing (and inevitably fail), instead of examining their beliefs and perhaps admitting that they've been in err, they simply make excuses why 'this time was different' or how the test was all wrong, etc, etc, etc.
They're all the same.
The phenomenon doesn't just infest the guitar world. It's in a lot of places. When one notes how a particular belief is bullshit, the contortions of logic from the 'believers' can be spectacular, demanding that negatives be proven and that indeed, it's not up to THEM to prove what they can do, it's up to anyone who points out its bullshit to prove that its bullshit... and even when YOU OFFER TO DO JUST THAT, well, that's not good enough either... OR YOU'RE A BULLY!!!
Clowns, but terrifyingly common.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:44 PM
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gmaslin - 2013-09-13 6:27 PM
I don't doubt there are a few people capable of hearing the difference...
This is what fascinates me, because it's probably absolutely true.
"Guitar Ear" probably has its Eric Johnson type 'third-sigma', just like everything else does.
I simply maintain that 99.999% of the blowhards who believe they can 'hear it' indeed CANNOT hear it and I'm willing to bet on that. The 0.001% of the time I run into the once-in-a-lifetime freak who can do it, I'll give him his money but the other 99,999 times, expectation is grotesquely on my side.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 6:52 PM
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You're still an a$$. But I'd be willing to bet you're even more annoying when you're drunk... Let's do some Neil Young sometime. |
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Location: Da Windy City | Waskel@Work - 2013-09-13 6:52 PM
You're still an a$$. But I'd be willing to bet you're even more annoying when you're drunk... Let's do some Neil Young sometime.
Okie dokie. |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 6:27 PM
I have to say that the more I read 'Guitar's' posts, the more I respect him. He is only asking that persons claiming a night and day difference between the manufacturers prove it.
Actually, he was the one who barged in and claimed there is no appreciable, practical difference between a $300 and a $3000 guitar. I think the onus is on him to prove his point.
He could, for instance, obtain a random $300 and a random $3000 guitar from an internet source. There are a number of online retailers he could buy from. Then he could have an inspection by, for example, several experienced luthiers and several experienced guitarists. Let the experts look at the fit/finish of the guitars. Evaluate the feel in every aspect. Play them. Listen to them. Plug them in and listen to them. Then, disassemble them. Inspect the component parts and the mechanical designs. Evaluate the sturdiness and repairability for a long term owner.
Don't tell the inspectors that the purpose is to determine if there is a difference, just ask them for their opinions of the two guitars.
See, Guitar can attempt to prove the affirmative of what he postulated. If he fails, he fulfills the Scientific Method. If a double blind scientific experiment with a group of experts affirms his hypothesis, the hypothesis stands as supported. If the experts find appreciable or practical differences, his hypothesis fails.
First, though, perhaps he (you?) should define the terms with specificity. "Appreciable" means what? "Practical" means what? |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-13 5:15 PM
Because I never claimed that people can't familiarize themselves with polyphonic differences that exist between instruments after decades of use. The implication of my position is that one cannot 'hear' a random US guitar from a random non US guitar to any degree of repeatability, which is a pretty meaningful observation given their disparity in cost and the number of people who insist they can.
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See the word "no" in that sentence?
That's the whole 'prove a negative' thing. My position is inherently contra, not affirmative.
Sure you could prove it. Use experienced ears, maybe music students at a university. In a double blind test have someone play the two random guitars. See if there is "any degree of repeatability" of their ability to distinguish the two guitars.
Ever heard of the Scientific Method. It isn't 7th grade logic but it is 3rd grade science. |
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Location: Da Windy City | FlySig - 2013-09-13 7:14 PM
See, Guitar can attempt to prove the affirmative of what he postulated. If he fails, he fulfills the Scientific Method. If a double blind scientific experiment with a group of experts affirms his hypothesis, the hypothesis stands as supported. If the experts find appreciable or practical differences, his hypothesis fails.
First, though, perhaps he (you?) should define the terms with specificity. "Appreciable" means what? "Practical" means what?
FlySig - 2013-09-13 7:19 PM
Sure you could prove it. Use experienced ears, maybe music students at a university. In a double blind test have someone play the two random guitars. See if there is "any degree of repeatability" of their ability to distinguish the two guitars.
Ever heard of the Scientific Method. It isn't 7th grade logic but it is 3rd grade science.
Obviously-forced verbosity is a sign of a weak intellect trying to swim in the deep end a bit too soon. It's also funny when someone like yourself says "it's third grade science..." when it's quite unlikely that, indeed, when it comes to science, you are NOT smarter than a 3rd grader.
Ya see, scientific rigor is incredibly established in most areas. It's not subject to 'internet debate'. Its unarguable.
The best part is when some scientifically illiterate eDoofus comes along and starts in with the whole "pursuant to the hypotheses of established query dicta, the needed specificity of testing against obdurate criteria imbues variables the so as to be amenable to equitable perusal' routine. On a guitar forum, when in defense of some popular delusion, boy, that sure is some Grade-A razzle-dazzle to the peanut gallery who doesn't know what the **** they're even reading...
But to people who actually 'comprehend' this stuff and have a bit of background in the sciences? Like, if I posted a link to what you just wrote on a certain science-based forum and asked the denizens there to appraise what you said in the light of established testing criterion, Well, they'd laugh and probably ask why I was trying to have a conversation like this with someone like you on a guitar forum. The stuff you 'reject' is hilarious, the esoteric premises you try and cobble up in place of standard practices, again, it's just funny.
This is one of those things that, to anyone who understands what they're looking at, is always funny to see. The guy who knows nothing but is doing his level-best to create the illusion that he does...
I realize you're trying hard and I commend that.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 7:44 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | Seriously though, I'm starting to see how utterly pointless this is. It's like trying to discuss stock options with my dog.
Unless someone really insists on sucking me back into this discussion (and I sure do have a weakness for getting sucked back into discussions), FlySig, you're welcome to the last word here.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-13 7:47 PM
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| FlySig
I agree with the fit and finish aspect and that is why I added the proviso, 'more likely to feel the difference' but hearing it is quite a bit harder. Yes, he did introduce the challenge but only after reading what must have been complete anathema to him. I think the point here is that the difference in sound is not discernible so if that is your concern, the extra money doesn't get you what you can hear. I believe Guitar described the parameters for pass/fail earlier in the thread. |
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Location: Utah | So go post it and give us the link to the responses of expert researchers. I'm not looking btw for some kind of peer reviewed Ph.D. dissertation research project. I'm just looking for you to prove the assertion you made that there is "no appreciable, practical difference" between the two price points. And your next assertion that there isn't "any degree of repeatability" in the ability of guitarists to hear the difference between such guitars. I think there are some easy ways to prove it to a substantial confidence level using statistically valid sample sizes (that would be college level stats lingo) of experts such as luthiers and musicians.
It isn't up to any of us to disprove your point, it is up to you to prove your assertions.
But we do need a definition of terms unless you're using common meanings.
I enjoy my guitars, of all price points and construction. I can certainly appreciate the differences, and there are to me practical differences between an USA LX guitar and an AX/TX guitar. I don't have to convince you of that, it is my opinion and my tastes. I've played a bunch of guitars, bought and sold some, and kept the ones I like. I don't need your approval for what I enjoy.
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Location: Flahdaw | Interesting how Guitar and gmaslin seem to both be unknowns to the forum, yet be on the same page.....????? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Blah Blah Blah...
I bought a Korean-made 1778TX because I had sold all of my USA-made Elite T's and nobody in their right mind was selling USA T's anymore.
(Go look on eekBay... there ain't none)
I received the 1778TX and it wasn't terrible.
As luck would have it I managed to snag a REAL USA 1778T because of a typo.
Once I had both the T and the TX for a side-by-side the difference was obvious.
I kept the T, sold the TX.
You don't need the scientific method.
Just grab some innocent bystanders and ask which one sounds better.
They can tell the difference.
Why are we even having this stupid discussion.
Guitar... Go grab a Celebrity or an Applause or an Epiphone or an Esteban.
If you are satisfied with that good for you.
Before I had my present guitars I had Many Celebrity guitars.
I have one now. And an Epiphone and a Squier Parts-caster.
You can play whatever you want, there is no need to discuss this or anything else in your miserable little existence.
Oh, and "Guitar"... Don't respond to me.
I won't see it... you are on my ignore list.
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 7:53 PM
FlySig
I agree with the fit and finish aspect and that is why I added the proviso, 'more likely to feel the difference' but hearing it is quite a bit harder. Yes, he did introduce the challenge but only after reading what must have been complete anathema to him. I think the point here is that the difference in sound is not discernible so if that is your concern, the extra money doesn't get you what you can hear. I believe Guitar described the parameters for pass/fail earlier in the thread.
Well that sounds all reasonable, but yet it is not correct as far as Guitar's assertions. Without knowing who's cheerios he was peeing in, he came and insulted the general membership of the forum and gave a good display of arrogant disrespect. One guy here used to own a gas station, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know a thing or two about Ovation guitars. And that reference is lost on both you and Guitar, which demonstrates the level of your/his ignorance.
Some of the people here have more than a passing acquaintance with how these guitars are made, both domestically and overseas. Some have more than a passing acquaintance with playing guitars.
And then there are just plain amateur hack hobbiests like me. I'm confident even I can hear the differences Guitar claims don't exist.
Yet he is like jello being nailed to the wall when we ask him to show us we're wrong. He slithers and slides and responds to the direct challenges with insults. He obviously doesn't know anything about the conversations and members here, or he'd know this group embraces guitarists of all skill levels and financial status. It is kind of humorous some of the people he's called Cork Sniffers.
Edited by FlySig 2013-09-13 9:15 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Why is ANY one wasting ANY time arguing with these 2 jerk offs? (although, as I previously said, it's been an interesting thread...) |
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| BobG
If you are implying that I am a 'Guitar' sock puppet you would be mistaken and the mods can verify that easily by looking up our respective IP addresses.
FlySG
You're casting aspersions on a man who is putting his money behind his words and in today's world, you can't get much more more concrete than that. Listen, I love you guys and the fact that you love Ovations. You are an excellent resource on an esoteric subject but please accept the possibility that you might be hearing what you want to hear. This is not a condemnation as much as an acknowledgement of our humanity. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Holy Crap! I slack off for a couple of days and missed all this!
I can't believe all of you old farts are being so mean to Guitar! You should feel sorry for him if he can't tell the difference between a $300 celebrity and a $3000 Ovation! It is obvious from reading this whole thread that you ALL are delusional and the only one who has a valid opinion or any knowledge here is Guitar, and you people (that's right, I said YOU PEOPLE), do nothing but insult him. In fact some of you even go so far as to act like you have played Ovations for 30 or 40 years, or have actually built them, or ran the company or some such nonsense. Puleeese!
Now you'll probably come after me for defending him.
This thread has been more entertaining than its virtual weight in cat videos. Now if we could get HeatherDDD to chime in this discussion would be complete.
Edited by Designzilla 2013-09-13 9:52 PM
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Location: Utah | gmaslin, it isn't just the hearing. Guitar stated clearly in his first assertion on the first page that there is "no appreciable, practical difference" between the two price points. I guess to him practical aspects don't include playability, durability, future maintenance (neck reset for example), quality of tuning machines, preamp features, and attention to build detail. He later said nobody could hear the difference. Anyone who has played a number of different O models knows there is a big difference between models which affect tone. There just is. We have had blind tests on this forum. Read that last sentence again. It has been done. More than once.
If you or Guitar think you have some new data, go ahead and share it. I've offered some ideas on double blind tests using experts. Or come up with a protocol more acceptable to the cork sniffing scientists on whatever researcher forum you visit.
Obviously Guitar gets a charge out of insulting people. He has made not only direct insults but revealed his arrogant disdain through subtle insults. Over on the '97C thread he gloats about how he likes finding ugly duckling cosmetically damaged guitars which collectors would not be interested in, as if there is some higher moral standing if you're not a collector or if you spend less money. Funny how he loves the USA guitar if he gets it for the cheap price. I mean, if the sound is the same, who would prefer a beat up USA guitar over a nicely finished cheap import if the price is the same? Guitar is a snob in his own way.
Edited by FlySig 2013-09-13 9:58 PM
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Location: Orlando, FL | gmaslin - 2013-09-13 10:30 PM
please accept the possibility that you might be hearing what you want to hear. This is not a condemnation as much as an acknowledgement of our humanity.
Amen brother! The unwashed masses of the OFC are wrong yet again! Need we go back to the AGF for confirmation?? One brave man with an opinion and a sh!tload of bluster has single-handedly called the collective bluff of the resident cork sniffers.
No matter that it may be easy to offer grandiose wagers with strangers on the internet and then cry coward when nobody takes you seriously. Hey, whenever I hear someone offer to put up $10,000 on the internet (or in person actually), I KNOW they're serious and they must be right!
This is kind of like saying someone who has been a car enthusiast and/or mechanic for 40 years can tell the difference from Hyundai and a Corvette by the sound of the engine, or what the seats feel like!
Honestly. I don't know why I bother to ready this forum almost daily! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Designzilla - 2013-09-13 8:08 PM
Honestly. I don't know why I bother to read this forum almost daily!
You need to Post almost daily... we do need daily sanity.
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| FlySG 'Guitar' is a snob in his own way This and the other comments made in your post #474886 are insightful and worthy of highlighting. 'Guitar' does take a perverse and provocative approach to bait his victims but on the other hand, how better to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality? I don't think he does this as a public service, I believe he derives great joy from this myth-busting and is one reason things become somewhat vitriolic wherever he or others like him show up. It's very hard to give up tenets that comfort you and are validated by others so it is natural to form an immediate dislike for someone who disturbs this false panacea. 'Guitar' is a scouring pad that society needs to remove the undesirable build up but repetitive and indiscriminate applications of him can definitely ruin what is delicate and special. I was in electronic labs during the late 70's when numbers began ruling amp design. So many of my colleagues were blinded by the pursuit of lower THD and they kept increasing the negative feedback in their circuits, completely ignoring the fact that they were choking off the musicality of the sound. The results? Soundstages collapsed, unpleasant higher order harmonics were emphasized and music became offensive at higher decibel levels. It took some bold Canadian sound researchers to get us back on track and the entire entertainment industry owes them a great deal for that.
Guitar
It's all well and good to inform us of crockery but in my opinion, you go wrong when you try to define other peoples values. Let the emperors have their suits and laugh at them in silence. Measuring instruments are improving all the time, so are our methodologies and focus points. We are already past the point where we can see things on scopes that most people can't hear but that doesn't mean it can't be heard by someone. Why shouldn't people be allowed to form an opinion on what they value as 'best'?
Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-14 6:46 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm just a hillbilly, backwoods, hole-digger with **** for brains. I really NEED an instruction manual for getting thru life and internet forums. Thanks for all your help. (I sure wish your posts didn't have all them big words, tho....) |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-14 6:42 AM
FlySG 'Guitar' is a snob in his own way This and the other comments made in your post #474886 are insightful and worthy of highlighting. 'Guitar' does take a perverse and provocative approach to bait his victims but on the other hand, how better to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality?
This is just bullshit, and I stopped reading the rest of your post to respond.
One of the fun aspects of Ovation guitars is that despite the apparent common design, there are in fact many different eras, materials, designs, bracings, woods, truss rods, bowl constructions, finish types, etc etc etc etc. The fans here discuss and debate these things pretty much continuously.
It would be idiocy to say or think there is no tonal difference between the different models. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is not.
Guitar shows his ignorance and arrogance by blustering in here making not only stupid assertions but then insulting members for things he doesn't even know their position on. He calls us corksniffers, yet has not read the many threads about the Academy model. There is no lower design point or materials point in the Ovation history than this model, yet it is hailed as a great sounding guitar, sounding and playing better than it has any right to. Or the T models. People marvel at how it is one of the very best sounding Ovations, yet it was designed as a modest price alternative.
And people have wondered why the TX in side by side comparisons doesn't sound like the T. Could it be the thicker top? Or the thicker finish? Or maybe the neck construction and neck joint? These differences might be appreciable or practical.....
What sounds "better" is always subject to personal preference. Does a particular $3000 guitar sound better than a particular $300 guitar? Every person has their own opinion.
Have you sat in a room with 20 or 30 Ovations/Adamas guitars representing the whole history of the company and played them all weekend? I have, as have many or most of the members here. Have you been to one of the Road Shows the factory put on a couple summers ago? They had a cross section of current production guitars to play. Have you gone to a guitar shop and played several different guitars from one manufacturer to compare them?
I'll tell you a secret. The $10,000 Martin didn't sound nearly as good to me as the $1,000 or $3,000 model. I'm not sure I liked it more than the $500 model. There were some custom Ovation/Adamas guitars I've played which, while nice guitars, didn't speak to me despite being incredibly beautiful looking instruments which carried price tags well above the $3,000 number Guitar threw around. I like my used guitars as much as the ones I bought new. My 21 yr old daughter plays far better than I do, even though I've played for 45 years.
Another secret. The pros and former touring pros I've met have been unbelievable kind and supportive of hacks like me.
One of our members here collects Applauses, and we like him anyway.
I don't know if Guitar is a troll or just an ignorant arrogant ***, his behavior here supports both conclusions. |
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Location: Always beautiful canyon country of Utah | I careth not about all this verbiage. Let Guitar play what he wants. I have my Adamas and for me there is no other guitar like it in this universe. End of discussion. |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-14 12:29 AM
guys spending mid four to low five figures on an instrument who play to the level of a mildly dedicated junior high schooler... They will criticize someone ... yet demonstrate absolute no proficiency as players beyond the most 101 level stuff
I guess I'm not worthy of an opinion on how something sounds until I attain your lofty level of skill. |
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Location: Utah | Guitar - 2013-09-11 10:13 PM
The fact that right now, a kid with a couple hundred bucks can buy a decent used- or in some cases, new- import Ovation is great for playing musicians, perhaps a bit annoying to 'collectors' who are more concerned with the perception of other people than they are about making sounds.
This is the only true thing I think you've posted. And, you have grossly misunderstood the membership here by ASSuming we are "'collectors' who are more concerned with the perception of other people than they are about making sounds.". |
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| BobG Thanks for all your help. (I sure wish your posts didn't have all them big words, tho....) Please accept my apologies. List the words you had trouble with and I will find a more common synonym or look them up for you if that is easier for you.
FlySG
My prior reply to you had no sarcasm, I really thought that you made some good points in that post. I suspect 'Guitar' believes the vast majority of guitar 'collectors' don't play, don't have a decent ear and don't deserve the privilege of owning what they do. He has admitted to having to cut the check when he is wrong so why the angst? If you or any others reading here, really are that confident in your claims you will take the challenge and his money. If enough people beat the test, he will eventually concede and stop challenging/annoying the conoscenti. I seriously considered doing this myself but my recent ear exam has confirmed I can't hear very well past 13.8KHz. This is perhaps slightly better than average for my age. My pitch identification skills are still excellent in my bandwidth range but I don't hear as well as I used to. For those thinking of taking this test, your odds will be better in the un-amplified part. Keep in mind also that a $300 guitar can still have a good guitar tech work on them to make 'em better. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Funny how you keep speaking for Guitar, almost like you know each other.... |
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Location: Utah | gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
I suspect 'Guitar' believes the vast majority of guitar 'collectors' don't play, don't have a decent ear and don't deserve the privilege of owning what they do.
I'd be interested in what you/he believe it is that makes a person deserving of the privilege of owning what they do.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
He has admitted to having to cut the check when he is wrong so why the angst? If you or any others reading here, really are that confident in your claims you will take the challenge and his money.
Guitar ran from Bobbo at high speed as soon as someone legitimately took him up on his offer.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
If enough people beat the test, he will eventually concede and stop challenging/annoying the conoscenti.
What an arrogant attitude he has! What makes him the arbiter of who deserves to own something, or what one is allowed to like or prefer? Why should anyone have to beat some vague test of his concoction? He made a direct claim, actually at least 2 of them, and then he wants us to disprove it or else he contemptuously declares us wrong?
Does he have some 6 sigma intelligence or some secret knowledge which makes him a superior judge?
His aesthetic is tone:dollar, based on his definition of what good tone is. He has every right to his value system, but it doesn't make him right or better. It doesn't make his cheap import better or worse than someone else's expensive guitar.
MY aesthetic is maximum joy for available dollars, based on MY definition of joy. It doesn't make me right or better. It doesn't make my more expensive guitars better or worse than my cheap guitars.
A 1978 Chevette could get me to work in the same amount of time and burning the same amount of gas as a 2014 Audi A8. Some might love the cheap cost of the old Chevette, some might get great joy out of the Audi. Neither position is right or wrong, better or worse. Does the Audi driver have to have exceptional driving skill to deserve to own it?
I would say I hate to be the one to to smack the delusional into a better focus of reality, or to be the scouring pad that society needs to remove the undesirable build up, but I am actually enjoying pointing out his hypocrisy, ignorance, and arrogance.
gmaslin - 2013-09-14 11:31 AM
Keep in mind also that a $300 guitar can still have a good guitar tech work on them to make 'em better.
And if you/he were a person who read some threads here before throwing insults left and right you'd see we discuss how a big part of the difference between price points is the amount of craftsmanship which goes into the final setup. Fret leveling, fret dressing, nut slots, truss rod and saddle adjustments. Your out-of-the-box $300 import becomes a much more expensive instrument once you've paid the luthier a couple hundred dollars to make it better. It is no longer a $300 import, is it? And put it in a nice hard shell case for another $100+, which comes at no additional cost with the USA guitar. Suddenly your $300 import is a $600 or $700 guitar.
I presume Guitar intended to salt his sample of the $299 import with an instrument carefully worked over. |
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Location: Da Windy City | FlySig - 2013-09-14 12:53 PM
Guitar ran from Bobbo at high speed as soon as someone legitimately took him up on his offer.
You're either mentally retarded or have the reading comprehension of a small child.
Bobbo did not take my up on my offer. He proposed an odd counter-offer that didn't address the point I was making. And I have no interest whatsoever in betting on whether someone who's been playing the same guitar for years can hear one from the other. His bet proposed he could taste his moms apple pie from 3 other random apple pies, not whether the generic apple pie tasted any different from the much more expensive brand name.
Comprende?
Amusingly, no.
You no comprende.
To a couple scientifically illiterate retards, it was crushing evidence of the strenghtn of his position that it was rejected. To everyone else, even proposing that in this context shows how dumb the guy is.
Notice how he hasn't been heard from since... If he is? Bet's still out there and my PM box remains empty.
You're allowed to have opinions but you look like a retard when you start making up your own facts. The problem with the internet is, it's all right here for people to go back and read for themselves.
FlySig - 2013-09-14 12:53 PM
but I am actually enjoying pointing out his hypocrisy, ignorance, and arrogance.
It's not like idiots are aware that they're idiots. They truly believe they're out blazing a path in this world and really holding their own but just a little hint: you've certainly tried to do that, but you haven't done it very well. The simplest way to do it would be to come and pick up this ten grand I have ready to demonstrate your belief system is garbage.
It's gone a little something like this.
(excuses)
(excuses)
(lamenting)
(excuses)
Me: Well, I mean, the criteria are fair and directly align with the narratives a lot of people claim. The testing criteria are valid whether you comprehend that or not. Wanna come get the money?
(blabber)
(excuses)
Me: This is getting a little old. PM box is over <-- There. Let me know.
You: I'VE BEEN ENJOYING POINTING OUT WHAT AN IGNORANT HYPOCRITE YOU ARE!
Me: PM box remains empty 
I will, however, concede arrogance. It's my natural mechanism when in the presence of large groups of people who believe incredibly dumb ****. Latest polling shows that more Americans STILL believe in Angels than the Darwinian principles of evolution. We got a long way to go to become a rational and enlightened society. Until then, a dumb population is a marketers wet dream.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 1:46 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 12:06 PM
Funny how you keep speaking for Guitar, almost like you know each other....
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
But it seemz like ya gat yerself a conspirasah!
Ya figgered it out!
Muppet.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 1:25 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Guitar - 2013-09-14 2:24 PM
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
Yeah, I kinda assumed growing up in your home musta been tough. Lotta anger and abuse? |
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 1:42 PM
Guitar - 2013-09-14 2:24 PM
I don't know him, he doesn't know me... Apparently, we've drawn some of the same conclusions in life by observing the behavior of idiots.
Yeah, I kinda assumed growing up in your home musta been tough. Lotta anger and abuse?
This makes a lot of sense and sure is an insightful, relevant contribution to this discussion.
I, for one, hope you make great contributions to the gene pool because assuredly, your children will grow up to help advance mankind.
FFS. "Hare, hunter, field... " |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "You Wanna Bet" seems like the last retort of someone who cannot make a cogent argument for their position with evidence and logic.
I might add that Money is such an arbitrary concept that really has no intrinsic value....
Let's meet and bet something tangible...
Y'know? Cars and Guitars.
Or maybe Fingers or Teeth or Ears.
Let's bring some guitars, meet in a warehouse on a Sunday when it is quiet...
I'll bring my cleaver and channel-locks.
Edited by Old Man Arthur 2013-09-14 2:02 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Hehehe...what's funny is you're spending hours constructing long winded diatribes on meaningless bullshit, while I spend seconds constructing a stinkbomb. Both have equal relevance. No one's interested in your boring dissertations (except your friend, gmaslin, winky wink), but by all means, keep wasting your life. |
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| Sound is very subjective, and always subject to argument. That being said, I am guessing that there are quite a few people here with good enough ears to tell the different between your average $300 import and your average $3,000 U.S.-made Ovation in a blind test.
You might find some exceptions. I have played a few imports that sounded pretty good. But one thing that was pretty clearly different in all cases was build quality. U.S.-made Ovations are really extremely well-built guitars, even for their higher price point. The imports are not all bad but there is a noticeable difference. |
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Location: Da Windy City | arthurseery - 2013-09-14 2:00 PM
"You Wanna Bet" seems like the last retort of someone who cannot make a cogent argument for their position with evidence and logic.
Wagering is the last resort when all logic has failed and people continue to believe dumb things.
It's a great way to shine a light on their beliefs but more particularly, how fragilly held those beliefs are when 'free espousal' doesn't cut the mustard.
They'll say "THAT'S THE DUMBEST THING I'VE HEARD IN ALL MY YEARS ON THIS FORUM" yet you'd think if that were true, they'd have no problem gathering up a significant sum of money that says it's absolutely true (or, they're absolutely incorrect).
So, no. Your assessment there- just like most of the assessments made int his thread by people from 'your side'- is stupid. Wagers aren't the last resort of a desperate position. They're the last resort of a correct position in the face of people who desperately want to continue believing stupid bullshit in the face of evidence that demonstrates they are incorrect.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 2:04 PM
Hehehe...what's funny is you're spending hours constructing long winded diatribes on meaningless bullshit, while I spend seconds constructing a stinkbomb. Both have equal relevance. No one's interested in your boring dissertations (except your friend, gmaslin, winky wink), but by all means, keep wasting your life.
"Hehehehe", it probably takes me less time to construct a 3000 word post than it does you to make a 100 word post.
You're pretty clearly not a very bright man. Might be a swell guy, great uncle or dad but in this context, dumber than a sack of hammers.
The reason you think my words are 'meaningless' is the same reason this also appears 'meaningless' to you:
While this is something you completely understand.
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | You're having a conversation with about 4 people on this 8500 member forum and you think you're changing the world. Sorry, but that makes you the hammer.
Edited by BobG 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 2:28 PM
You're having a conversation with about 4 people on this 8500 member forum and you think you're changing the world. Sorry, but that makes you the hammer.
Great assessment. Spot on.
You're an insightful man.
(and good job with the edit changing "your" to "you're". Wouldn't want to confirm any stereotypes now, would me)
Edited by Guitar 2013-09-14 2:32 PM
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| Guitar I, for one, hope you make great contributions to the gene pool because assuredly, your children will grow up to help advance mankind. Ouch! I should point out his wife might still save the outcome.
BobG
Well, from the reply above you may have noted some distinctions in our manners but philosophically, you are correct to point out that I am in his camp.
FlySG
Kudos to you! You have understood my caveat about these tests perfectly but they are still winnable by a good set of ears and experience with the guitars. No matter how good the setup, the soundboard will still profile harmonics according to its material and undershape and that is the key to succeeding the challenge. I'm sure if I keep talking, 'guitar' will start to hate me too but to address the who deserves what question, don't you see the perversity of a person without the potential, commitment or desire for making beautiful sounds in the possession of an instrument capable of it? It's the same obnoxious ostentation of a person who purchases a Ferrari and never takes it above 60MPH. These kind of things must offend 'Guitar' to his deepest core and even to me, there is something offensive to Karma about them. If I were a craftsman making the pinnacle of my ability, there would be a twinge of sadness knowing it would end up being underutilized in the hands of someone who will never make it do what it was meant to do. Money has become the ugly arbiter and daily, people trade away not only their own life's meaning and purpose but those of others as well. This has the potential to become a really heavy and unpleasant discussion so I will stop here.
Edited by gmaslin 2013-09-14 2:39 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | I've managed to annoy you, which was my only goal. Hooray me!!!! |
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | arthurseery - 2013-09-13 6:08 PM AstroDan - 2013-09-13 3:25 PM I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports. I'll trade you a FINE Chinese Cedar-topped Contour Bowl Celebrity for that crappy '07C you've got. This post is useless without pics...  
Note*** Sounds/plays/feels etc no better than anything else, really~! |
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Location: Da Windy City | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-14 2:35 PM
I've managed to annoy you, which was my only goal. Hooray me!!!!
Okie dokie. |
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Location: Flahdaw | See....hehehe
AND I've taken your mind off your boring, useless, and idiotic challenges and assertions. We're ALL winners here.... |
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| Never mud wrestle a pig, you just end up dirty and the pig will enjoy it more than you. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Uh oh. Tag team from the butt buddies |
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Location: Da Windy City | ^ This thread is rapidly arriving at the point where it probably just needs to be put out of its misery. ^ |
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Location: Flahdaw | Thank the Lord. (glad I could do my part) |
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Location: Utah | I sincerely believe we are dealing with Communists or the mentally ill. My coffee is getting cold, and there's a partially completed guitar case (for the ePap12 from MWoody) needing my attentions in the workshop. I'm out.
Edited by FlySig 2013-09-14 3:44 PM
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Location: Flahdaw | Oh no. You just fed the two trolls chocolate cake.... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | AstroDan - 2013-09-14 12:36 PM
arthurseery - 2013-09-13 6:08 PM AstroDan - 2013-09-13 3:25 PM I'm going to dump the over-priced, crappy American-made O's I own and get me a quantity of imports. I'll trade you a FINE Chinese Cedar-topped Contour Bowl Celebrity for that crappy '07C you've got. This post is useless without pics...
Note*** Sounds/plays/feels etc no better than anything else, really~!
BTW-- This actually sounds pretty good for what it is. It's the Cedar.
And looking at this photo... I sold that BC Rich Eagle Deluxe... DAMN I'm stupid sometimes.
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Location: Orlando, FL | Okay folks, let's move along, nothing more to read here that wasn't in the first three pages. Even the mindless insults are becoming tedious.
CLICK |
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Location: NJ | sooo
guitar LOL
who are you?
you say you are from chicago but your IP is in st augustine
obviously you are someone I banned before that just can't keep their nose out of the OFC
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Location: Flahdaw | Al, his website (if Fingerstyleguitarists.com really IS his website) is addressed on 9 W. Washington St, Chicago. But who knows? FWIW, it's not a very well done or very popular site.... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Glad I was having fun this weekend while you were fighting. It was also nice to see many old friends are still around.
Other than that, I don't see any reason to trust Guitar with a bet, much less $10,000. As for that, why not make a bet someone might be willing and able to take? Probably because you thought no one would accept a $10,000 bet with a stranger, but might take something more reasonable. Bobbo's counteroffer was to put the money in escrow. If you didn't like his counter, you could counter back.
But to your original point, without all the insults, I've had a Celebrity that sounded better than a USA made Ovation and cheaper US Ovations that sound better than more expensive Ovations. I've also played some cheap guitars that sounded better than more expensive guitars. And I've played a $15,000 guitar that wasn't impressive to me, before I knew the price. Learning it didn't change my opinion. So, I agree with some of your points, but so what? |
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| Mark in Boise
I believe 'Guitar' is out to prove people who fetish instruments, or any other material thing, delude themselves that more money spent necessitates a better outcome. He is forcing people to individually assess the real nature of value and quality of what they own or intend to own. This has important societal implications. |
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Location: Flahdaw | There he is again....speaking for Guitar. Very strange??? |
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Location: closely held secret | darkbarguitar - 2013-09-16 4:43 AM
There he is again
She, apparently. Right, Gina? |
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| Yes Waskel, you 'apparently' were the only one to look and see for yourself. People get nice surprises when they don't blindly accept what everyone else thinks |
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| Guitar/gmaslin, this has been the most entertaining thing I've read here in years.
Carry on. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Whatever....it's interesting how gmaslin's 1st post AND Guitar's coming out post (after 2 or 3 years, who really cares?) are the EXACT same date!!???
Coincidence? Hardly.
"We are in the same camp"-gmaslin
Maybe even in the same tent.....
Edited by BobG 2013-09-16 9:59 AM
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Location: Flahdaw | Oops, and notice how gmaslin AND Guitar both use apostrophes instead of quotation marks. They are either both the same person, or both dummies.
Edited by BobG 2013-09-16 10:01 AM
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Location: Boise, Idaho | gmaslin - 2013-09-16 5:40 AM
Mark in Boise
I believe 'Guitar' is out to prove people who fetish instruments, or any other material thing, delude themselves that more money spent necessitates a better outcome. He is forcing people to individually assess the real nature of value and quality of what they own or intend to own. This has important societal implications.
I understand and I agree to some extent. I could do without the insults and the "I'll bet you a million dollars" type of immature arguments. I assume he's playing devil's advocate and he successfully stirred up the pot of Ovation Fans that's been fairly still for years and I am thankful that it brought out several of the old regulars. I hope he could have accomplished the same thing without being so abrasive. Perhaps he was offended by Waskel suggesting he was a politician, or worse, a lawyer.
Back on topic, if I recall it, I had one personal experience in which a Celebrity sounded better than a comparable USA made Ovation. I bought a Celebrity Deluxe because I didn't know what I was doing with guitars or ebay. I took advantage of a similar situation by trading it and some cash for a 99 Collector, probably the most beautiful guitar I ever owned. Both mid-bowl, multihole cutaways. When I played the 99, it didn't sound as good to me as the CD, but I assumed it had dead strings. Years later, a Berklee trained guitar player tried it and several others of my Ovations and recorded identical clips. He swore the 99 sounded best on the recording, but I couldn't hear a difference. He didn't identify which guitar was recorded and I couldn't tell. They all sounded the same to me. He bought the 99 from me and later admitted that his ears may have been influenced by his eyes. Music, like any art, is very subjective. There just aren't any bright lines or absolute truths, except that rap sucks. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Some time back I decided that I would be an Ovation Geek in lieu of being a Snob. Snobs have to defend themselves, Geeks just get to enjoy...
Edited by MWoody 2013-09-16 10:58 AM
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Location: sitting at my computer | MWoody - Snobs have to defend themselves, Geeks just get to enjoy... [like button] click, click! LOL Honestly, who the heck (other than me) should care one iota what I might or might not think I can hear or how much I choose to pay for a guitar, a plectrum (or anything else)? It's my friggin' hobby and my friggin money! Frankly, I can't tell how expensive a guitar is just by listening to it, but trying to prove or disprove whether someone else who claims they can is (imho) a ludicrous endeavor. And to get into an argument about it is even sillier. Akin to elementary school kids arguing about who can pee further. 
Done bitchin', gonna go do some pickin'. |
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Location: sitting at my computer | MWoody - Snobs have to defend themselves, Geeks just get to enjoy... [like button] click, click! LOL Honestly, who the heck (other than me) should care one iota what I might or might not think I can hear or how much I choose to pay for a guitar, a plectrum (or anything else)? It's my friggin' hobby and my friggin money! Frankly, I can't tell how expensive a guitar is just by listening to it, but trying to prove or disprove whether someone else who claims they can is (imho) a ludicrous endeavor. And to get into an argument about it is even sillier. Akin to elementary school kids arguing about who can pee further.
Done bitchin', gonna go do some pickin'. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | This thread is closed. I may re-open it or move the Ovation Guitar bits into the new thread that will inevitably start, but you all know the rules..
If one person insults another... the MODERATORS deal with it. Once you "insult them back" like you're in elementary school then YOU are just as guilty. However, I was out of town... and I'm busy the next couple of days... I have to review all this nonsense. |
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so sad