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| The general consensus is that off shore versions of guitars are not as good as home grown ones. Mostly, I suspect because the reason they are farmed out the production is because they needed to save money on labor and other costs. This is not to say that there are not some really nice instruments built in other places. My question is more about companies that have their lower tier guitars made elsewhere.
If a company decides the go this rout, I would think that they would give every detail of construction and specs to the folks in that factory and make sure they have the machines and tools to make them just as good as they are made originally.
So, why it is that they don't sound the same or play the same. Is it real or a preconceived notion at work ? There was a recent thread comparing a T and a TX that got me thinking about this. There's other brands and their off shore builds as well that seem to have the same thing about them.
Is it that the goal is not to build them just as good, but to build them good enough and below a given price point ?
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Get a LIFE! |
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| Not a problem. I've already got one.
Thank you SO much for your insightful response. I will cherish it as if I climbed a high mountain to speak to the guru living there, who has devoted his life to enlightenment, and came back with your jewel of thought. And I will get off your front lawn.
I hope tomorrow is a better day ,than this one, for you.
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Location: SoCal | JohnW63 - 2012-10-18 9:36 PM Is it that the goal is not to build them just as good, but to build them good enough and below a given price point ? John, if the product meets requirements, is quality attained? |
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Location: Tennessee | It's a function of what people want to pay and how many they can sell and where they need those lines to intersect. In the end, as evidenced by even your comment on the other thread, the majority of Ovation players want a good playing guitar with higher end features all decked out with the top price point of $1000. This unfortunately precludes a manufacturer of making their guitars in the US. Ergo, you get them done oversea. Ovation has had a production facility in Korea for right about 30 years, so they do get excellent quality (for the money they can spend) in relative terms. Those guitars that are lower on the model lineup need to be made in China to be able to profitably produce at the even lower price point.
Believe it or not, Ovations require more handwork than most of the other competitive US guitars. Contrary to what some might believe, it costs just as much if not more in materials and labor to make Ovation guitars as everyone else. Check out how much the new USA made Ovation guitars (including Adamas) go for on eBay. The most important thing to realize is that this handwork is done by very talented New England luthiers which you cannot duplicate in Korea no matter how well you spec it out. So its totally natural for the quality to be a notch lower. There are also differences in the quality of materials that contribute to this.
The market generally requires at least a $1500 price tag to be able to build guitars the US. Taylor, Martin, Gibson, Breedlove all prove this point. Yes, they all produce their lower end models in non-US factories, and yes, the USA purists bitch about that no differently than this forum. Go play a Mexican made Martin guitar, or a Breedlove, or a low end Taylor and compare it to their US counterparts that are typically $2K or close. There is a difference that you can feel and hear. In many ways, Ovation's Korean made guitars (legends and Elites + Custom) are ahead of the competition in getting closer to the original quality of the US made guitars. The rub here is that the manufacturers here in the US keep raising the bar by continuing to innovate and improve designs, manufacturing, and quality control.
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | JohnW63 - 2012-10-18 11:36 PM
Is it that the goal is not to build them just as good, but to build them good enough and below a given price point ?
In all honesty, considering the COMPARATIVE quality between the Ovation imports and other imports in the same price range, I think the idea is to build the BEST GUITAR POSSIBLE "below a given price range." Because of competitive pricing, there ARE differences in materials as well as craftsmanship from their American counterparts, but the imports are still pretty darn decent instruments! |
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| A long time friend of mine, who has played lots of guitars, is of the mind that with all the CNC stuff and computer controls, the quality out of a decent factory in Asia is actually turning out to be quite good. He referenced the Guild GAD series. He was impressed with my used Walden G2070 which is made in China.
What I didn't know was just how much changes. What parts used change the sound or playability ? I didn't know if they DID use different materials at all over the US counter parts. Of course laminated tops vs solid would make a difference, but there are solid tops coming from Asia as well. Which brought me back to guitars that seem identical in the Ovation line, but one is a T and the other a TX. Even with all the manufacturing specs, a person can tell one from the other.
I know that Ovation USA will repair a Korean built guitar, once it is out of warranty, but during the warranty period, it has to go back to the dealer and then to the channels that it took to GET here in the first place.
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 6:19 PM
I know that Ovation USA will repair a Korean built guitar, once it is out of warranty, but during the warranty period, it has to go back to the dealer and then to the channels that it took to GET here in the first place.
they will?
better inform the guys in the service dept.
now you are really talking out of your arse |
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| AL, I got that DIRECTLY from the horses mouth via e-mail. Would you like me to forward it to you ? Here is the quote:
From askus@ovationguitars.com
We can take in Korean non warranty guitars for repair but any warranty issues need to be returned to the distributor through the music dealer.
Are you saying they don't know what they are talking about ? It doesn't seem to be MY arse the talking is coming out of.
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Location: Michigan | al how come this guy has 2 months experience here and knows allot more about ovation and adamas guitars and the way the factory does business than you do as a dealer and one of the original founders of this site .
i am shocked that we have been misled for the last 11 years .
i am so confused .  GWB |
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Location: SE Michigan | JohnW63 - 2012-10-18 11:36 PM
The general consensus is that off shore versions of guitars are not as good as home grown ones.
...
...
...
So, why it is that they don't sound the same or play the same. Is it real or a preconceived notion at work ? There was a recent thread comparing a T and a TX that got me thinking about this. There's other brands and their off shore builds as well that seem to have the same thing about them.
Is it that the goal is not to build them just as good, but to build them good enough and below a given price point ?
I think that when a company decides to off shore guitar production they have made a decision that low cost is a higher priority than craftsmanship. And this prioritization is manifest in the product. It is possible even likely that with CNC and automation that off shore guitars are every bit as well built, but I suspect that if the goal was to reduce cost the materials may not be as good.
I think it's sad that consumer patriotism is on the wane. I suspect that the younger generation thinks very little about where a product was manufactured. |
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| I asked Ovation a question. They answered as I have quoted. Now, from what Al says, they didn't know what they were talking about. How am I supposed to know when Ovation is "talking out of their arse " ?
edit: ( After reading the post above this, I get the impression that he was thinking I was calling Al into question. That was not my intent. I was referring to the customer service person who sent my e-mail. )
Edited by JohnW63 2012-10-19 9:07 PM
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| Brian,
I suspect that the younger generation thinks very little about where a product was manufactured.
I'd agree. Given the bulk of all the electronic gadgets they have all around them are made in China or at least Asia, it's hard for them to even KNOW that some stuff might actually be made HERE .
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 8:44 PM
AL, I got that DIRECTLY from the horses mouth via e-mail. Would you like me to forward it to you ? Here is the quote:
From askus@ovationguitars.com
We can take in Korean non warranty guitars for repair but any warranty issues need to be returned to the distributor through the music dealer.
Are you saying they don't know what they are talking about ? It doesn't seem to be MY arse the talking is coming out of.
I need to know the name of the person that sent you this because I can tell you point blank as a fact that they do not work on any imports at the factory. period
but WTF do I know you seem to know if all educate us, pontificate to us.
btw are you a doctor?
do you work in philadelphia?
are you of Greek ethnicity?
I am seeing a pattern here |
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| Al,
I asked Ovation this question a few weeks ago, because I was trying to decide between a older , used, US made guitar, and a newer, if not NEW Korean model. I wanted to verify what the steps were, if one needed repair over the other. The quote you see is their e-mail response. It was not signed. No name left. I can forward you the e-mail if you wish. The only info I have is it was sent out by "askus@ovationguitars.com". I have now asked them AGAIN for clarification. So, why are you riding my @ss about this ? Why am I at fault for believing what Ovation told me ? I tried to do research before buying a guitar. I went to the SOURCE and you're acting like I am making things up.
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Location: NJ | just call the service department.
ask for John Budny
ask for Kim Keller
I have known John for almost 20 years
Kim for 30 or longer
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Location: Flahdaw | As a test, I sent an email inquiry to the factory and received this response:
"Yes, we will do repair work on your Indonesian electric curling iron, but the other items you mentioned run against our moral fiber and, quite frankly, we find them appalling and disgusting."
So there you have it Al...you just don't know til you ask. |
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Location: south east Michigan | You Get What You Pay For It's as easy as that. |
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Location: Tuscany, Italy | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJlObJ8OafQ&feature=plcp |
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Location: NH | Brad Durasa - 2012-10-20 9:23 AM
You Get What You Pay For It's as easy as that.
Alot of times this is true. But often when considering this statement, one needs to ask "What is the item needed for?" I swear by the products of a USA tool manufacuturer that sells their products out of the back of a truck. Their products aren't cheap, nor inexpensive. However, a couple of years ago one of those well known mail order companies that manufactures in China opened a store 3 miles from my house. The prices are incomparable and I cringe every time I go in there. But sometimes I just need a tool that I only foresee using once in my life. I can use it and throw it away. Then I could buy ten more of them if needed sometime down the road, and still save money.
Another trite saying is "Perfection is the arch enemy of good enough". I'm guessing the "good enough" guitar market is way larger than the "perfection" market. Don't get me wrong. I like having nice stuff, but sometimes, what you pay for is all that you need. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Okay.... I see your point.
To that I'd slightly revise the old saying.
.
"You get what you're willing to pay for." Then I'd add, "Spend according to your needs and expect to get what you paid for.... no more / no less" |
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Location: Flahdaw | It gets even murkier sometimes. "You get what you're willing to pay for." You can pay $1500 for a used Adamas, or $3000 for a new one. Either way you "get" great, one's just half price. |
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Location: south east Michigan | One downside from "used" is that you don't get the factory warranty.
Not that you're likely to need it.
I did not need to exercise that option until I had owned the instrument for over 30 years.
.
Edited by Slipkid 2012-10-20 11:12 AM
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Location: NH | I like factory warranties. (Who doesn't?) Unless I get a DEEP discount on used, I usually buy new. I've almost never had to use them, but it gives me some degree of peace of mind. Kinda like insurance. |
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Location: NJ | just a point of clarification johnw63
I am not trying to argue with you or exhibit some sort of superiority
but
I do have a responsibility to keep the information on this site factual |
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| I understand that, Al. I run a forum of my own. My goal has always been to teach new forum members, not rip them a new one. It may have been better for you to simply ask me where I got my info, than accuse me a lying about it. From my computer screen, it certainly felt that you WERE trying to argue with me and exhibit superiority all at the same time. I am glad to read that was not the case. Given you have a business that includes Ovations, I'm sure you need to insure you don't come across as an SOB in a forum that many people might learn about those guitars.
I will try to be more clear in any future posts, when what I say may be taken the wrong way. I can only hope others will give me the slack to make it worth my time to even ask questions.
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | I may be sticking my nose in where it's neither needed nor wanted, but I think John has withstood some pretty withering retorts since he showed up here asking questions. Yes, he bristled a bit, but he was not the only one. He is asking some tough, but pertinenet questions, and there is no need to get defensive. If he (or any other newbie for that matter) is misinformed, then let's bring them up to speed with a bit more courtesy and a bit less "Who the @#% told you a stupid thing like that?!"
I feel partly responsible because I invited him here when he was asking questions about purchasing an Ovation on the AGF.
I'm honestly not trying to hog the soap box here, but I have been quite uncomfortable reading around the OFC this past week. Can we please take a step back and get back to "Great Guitars -- Great People -- Great Fun!"?
(Sorry, couldn't resist a calendar plug there. I made a couple of revisions based on the pros' recommendations, and it officially started the "publishing" process this week.  ) |
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-20 5:36 PM
I understand that, Al. I run a forum of my own. My goal has always been to teach new forum members, not rip them a new one. It may have been better for you to simply ask me where I got my info, than accuse me a lying about it. From my computer screen, it certainly felt that you WERE trying to argue with me and exhibit superiority all at the same time. I am glad to read that was not the case. Given you have a business that includes Ovations, I'm sure you need to insure you don't come across as an SOB in a forum that many people might learn about those guitars.
I will try to be more clear in any future posts, when what I say may be taken the wrong way. I can only hope others will give me the slack to make it worth my time to even ask questions.
I need not insure anything for you.
if you want to participate in the forum you play by the rules or get banned
over the years I have booted several people. your troll like nature is making me issue you a formal warning. |
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| And once again, I am accused of being a troll. Be honest Al. What posts or statements have I made that really are troll like ?
I suggested that not everything Ovation has tried over the last 20 or so years have been big innovations. I would have liked to discuss with StoneBobbo the details of each and debate whether they were evolutions of previous ideas, methods to fix perceived short comings or actual innovations that improved the brand, but, cries of " The most ignorant post EVER ..." came well before any thing else.
I suggested that different tone woods could be used in the more affordable guitars in the same thread, and you called that something like, " The sort of idiotic suggestion you were hoping not to get and that it would NEVER happen. ".
In this thread, I shared information directly from Ovation , which I had no reason to disbelieve, and you quickly said that, " I was speaking out of my arse. " .
All my other posts were direct questions about specific guitars, strings, ect. At no point did I name call, claim that Ovations sucked, or any other inflammatory statements with the intent to get everyone pissed off. THAT is what a forum troll does. Maybe you have a different definition. I have played by the rules, Al, however, given the forum terms of service page does not work, it does make it more difficult to quote chapter and verse. If there was some rule that said you can not defend your points of view when others take issue with them, that would be a unique one to me.
So, if this is a formal warning, I would at least like to know what rule I have broken that gives me " a troll like nature ". I would be difficult to not break that rule again, if I am unaware what it says.
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Location: south east Michigan | John... Being that you handle a forum yourself I'm sure you see the logic of taking your discussion with Al to E-mail.
That is... unless you like to do this type of thing out in the open.
Which in most circles, would seem rather troll-like. |
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | My two cents worth. I don't want to sound like a non-member, but if Ovation wants to make a profit they have to sell guitars. They don't sell used American ones. I got a Custom Legend for less than half price a few months back. It's KOREAN! I love the neck. It plays better than my D-35 Martin. Simply because you can play past the 7th fret. Every single person who's seen it wants to play it and I truly believe I have made more than my share of sales(I don't work anywhere) for upper-echelon Ovations. They're new so Ovation makes the money. Not some brick and mortar store. No disrespect. If KMC is going to make money and stay in business, they need to sell guitars. NOT used American ones. I like them as well as the next guy. You buy what they have for sale. IF there is a problem Ovation will fix it. I've dealt with them several times before. Best guys in the world. We all have a vested interest in Ovation. The only ones for sale are Korean or Custom-made(Al Dimeola/Melissa Etheridge/ Kaki King). A man buys what he can afford. I must have been lucky. I got a great Korean. I've been playing 34 years and I play on the average 3 or 4 hours a day. So I know what a great guitar is. If your "import" Ovation doesn't come up to spec. Call the company. I bet they'll fix the problem. If it deserves attention. I'll buy what they sell and what I can afford. That's capitalism at it's finest. Oh, my Japanese Stratocaster rocks. I traded an American Standard with all the bells and whistles for it. I could sell it to any one of 10 people tomorrow. Great guitar.
Edited by AdamasW597 2012-10-21 9:16 PM
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-21 3:00 PM
So, if this is a formal warning, I would at least like to know what rule I have broken that gives me " a troll like nature ". I would be difficult to not break that rule again, if I am unaware what it says.
don't piss off the host
bye bye |
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Location: Tennessee | JohnW63 - 2012-10-21 1:00 PM Be honesT Al. I suggested that not everything Ovation has tried over the last 20 or so years have been big innovations. I would have liked to discuss with StoneBobbo the details of each and debate whether they were evolutions of previous ideas, methods to fix perceived short comings or actual innovations that improved the brand, but, cries of " The most ignorant post EVER ..." came well before any thing else. Let ME be honest. You started by proclaiming that Ovation has done nothing new in 20 years. Calling you ignorant (it's is not a dirty word ... go look it up) was a deliberate use of the word ... and I tried to educate you about the many new things Ovation has developed over that time. You responded by dismissing virtually everything on the list, calling me names, and doubling down on your negative assault on Ovation (this is the Ovation FAN club). That, sir, is troll-like behavior. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. I really felt it was a legitimate question, and I was looking for explanations as to why they wouldn't wait until they got reasonably good to invest THAT kind of money.
Well Holy Crap...you'd think I had pooped on the Pope. I really started a firestorm. I tried a couple of posts trying to explain my position, but quickly saw it wasn't going to help matters. So I did the reasonable thing.... I BACKED OFF and let things settle down. I didn't post again for a few months and all was fine. Others would have kept pressing their point. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-22 11:10 AM I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. While I personally think this is an interesting question, I can also understand why those to whom it might apply may find it somewhat offensive, even if that was never the intent of the questioner. Some people might very well read into the question an underlying bias that somebody who cannot play very well is not entitled to spend $5,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. The reason for the bias is likely rooted in the definition of value. For the non-player, value is probably based on rarity, collector appeal, or the like. I would be willing to bet that the majority of Ferrari owners possess skills nowhere close to those required to operate these vehicles at the upper limit of their capabilities. I'm sure it applies to many other things as well. Look at all the soccer moms driving big Jeep SUVs. Most of these vehicles have never seen a dirt road, let alone a rocky streambed where their off-road capabilities really shine. If a willing buyer has the money to buy a $10,000 guitar, more power to them. I hope I run into one if and when I should ever be so lucky as to be selling a guitar in that range. This is one of benefits of a free market economy. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Yes, eventually that argument came out, and I saw the logic in it. But by then I was already a pariah so I just slowly backed away, eyes alert, hands hovering over the butt of my six shooter, til I could make it out the saloon doors.... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It takes awhile for people to figure out whether someone who is posting is sincere, trying to jerk a chain or is just a PITA. Some people are abrasive in writing, but not in person and vice versa. I wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for controversy, so it probably doesn't bother me as much as some.
After that piece of worthless pontificating, I almost forgot what I wanted to respond to and that was AdamasW597. I don't think people here were trying to say that you must have been lucky to get a great Korean Ovation. Most Ovation fans believe that the USA made ones are better. New ones may be out of the price range for many people and they may be better than most people need. What's important is that someone that buys an Ovation is happy with the purchase. If that Korean guitar makes you think that you would like a new USA model when your circumstances permit, that's good for Ovation. If you're perfectly happy with what you have, at least Ovation made one sale and that's good for Ovation. Win-win. Some people want to keep all the jobs in the US, but that just hasn't worked for most industries. As the labor costs increase to the levels of US workers, as they have, even in China, maybe the outsourcing will stop. I just hope we have skilled labor here when that happens. |
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| StoneBobbo,
There is no need to restart the debate we had, in this thread. We can certainly discuss it in a new one, if you wish, or as someone suggested, take the debate off line and use PMs. That being said, I don't recall calling you anything more than a fanboy. I don't know what you mean by "doubling down on negativity". I think the major problem was that while you gave me a list of your innovations I disagreed with that list. That's not trolling. That's a disagreement. As I said, I would more than willing to discuss the merits of each and every one of those items, if it can be done with less accusations.
Al,
If a poster can be booted simply because they type something that annoys you, it seems a bit like a roulette wheel of chance. I read, "The purpose of this site is to inform, educate, communicate and share knowledge of Ovation guitars. ". That's why I registered. |
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Location: Tennessee | Click |
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm confused... |
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Location: Michigan | is it getting warm in this room or is it me  GWB |
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Tick, tick, tick...
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Location: Northwest Arkansas | Mark. I own an American. But at the price point of some guitars. Koreans will sell. If they're messed up, QC will have to get better. OR people will quit buying the product. I love American. But, there are only 3 affordable ones. The Koreans are, to me, a valid alternative. That's my opinion. It gets me in trouble though. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Mike, if your opinion gets you in trouble, then I will be, too, because I agree with everything you said. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | boltonb - 2012-10-22 10:05 AM
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-22 11:10 AM I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. While I personally think this is an interesting question, I can also understand why those to whom it might apply may find it somewhat offensive, even if that was never the intent of the questioner. Some people might very well read into the question an underlying bias that somebody who cannot play very well is not entitled to spend $5,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. The reason for the bias is likely rooted in the definition of value. For the non-player, value is probably based on rarity, collector appeal, or the like. I would be willing to bet that the majority of Ferrari owners possess skills nowhere close to those required to operate these vehicles at the upper limit of their capabilities. I'm sure it applies to many other things as well. Look at all the soccer moms driving big Jeep SUVs. Most of these vehicles have never seen a dirt road, let alone a rocky streambed where their off-road capabilities really shine. If a willing buyer has the money to buy a $10,000 guitar, more power to them. I hope I run into one if and when I should ever be so lucky as to be selling a guitar in that range. This is one of benefits of a free market economy.
This is an interesting aspect... maybe worthy of a new thread... |
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Location: NJ | JohnW63 - 2012-10-22 5:34 PM
StoneBobbo,
There is no need to restart the debate we had, in this thread. We can certainly discuss it in a new one, if you wish, or as someone suggested, take the debate off line and use PMs. That being said, I don't recall calling you anything more than a fanboy. I don't know what you mean by "doubling down on negativity". I think the major problem was that while you gave me a list of your innovations I disagreed with that list. That's not trolling. That's a disagreement. As I said, I would more than willing to discuss the merits of each and every one of those items, if it can be done with less accusations.
Al,
If a poster can be booted simply because they type something that annoys you, it seems a bit like a roulette wheel of chance. I read, "The purpose of this site is to inform, educate, communicate and share knowledge of Ovation guitars. ". That's why I registered.
bye bye |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | alpep - 2012-10-23 6:32 AM
bye bye
So, are we to gather he got booted from this comment? |
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Location: Miami | patchmcg - 2012-10-20 7:44 PM
I may be sticking my nose in where it's neither needed nor wanted, but I think John has withstood some pretty withering retorts since he showed up here asking questions. Yes, he bristled a bit, but he was not the only one.
+1 (Thanks, Patch.)
As for the original post, the off shore TX's sound cheaper than the US T's NOT because of craftsmanship but because of the materials, as OMA observed in his "heresy" thread. You cannot compare the thicker spruce top (literally twice as thick) and rosewood tinted fretboard with a thinner spruce top (ie better vibration) and ebony fretboard. The materials used offshore were cheaper. And as I stated elsewhere, plugged in it's not too big of a difference. Unplugged, you can hear it and feel it. It's not just a perception of US vs. Offshore. |
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| Wouldn't it also be fair to say that the player makes a hell of a lot more of a difference than the guitar itself? I've heard some amazing players make a $100 Squier just sing and some pretty poor (maybe "undeveloped" is the better term) players with $5000 Martins truly embarrass themselves. I guess what I'm saying here is that while the offshore models may have quality control issues, at the end of the day it's the player and not the instrument.
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Location: Michigan | lets get this party started again , i love a good debate that can get you a vacation .  GWB |
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| If I was out of line in posing that question, I sincerely apologize. I didn't mean to rile anyone up. |
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Location: Flahdaw | You DARED to use the words "Squire" and "Martin" in THIS forum!!!??? VA-KAAAAA-TION!!! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | There are plenty of players that can make most anything sound good, although I suspect they would prefer a good instrument, and there are some of us that can't make a great instrument sound good. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I'm one.... That is why I love Ovations.
A great sounding instrument can make some simple chords sound awesome.
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| That's why I always loved hearing stories about guys like Jaco... never even had a case for his "Bass of Doom", just carried it around with him slung over his shoulder for years. Didn't change his strings for years from what I'm told. Yet everytime he plugged in it was just magic. But Jaco was a one in a million player, of course. |
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Location: Fort Worth, TX | darkbarguitar - 2012-10-22 11:10 AM
I was once called a "troll" on the AGF for questioning why guys that couldn't play very well were routinely buying $5000 to $10,000 guitars. I really felt it was a legitimate question, and I was looking for explanations as to why they wouldn't wait until they got reasonably good to invest THAT kind of money.
Well Holy Crap...you'd think I had pooped on the Pope. I really started a firestorm. I tried a couple of posts trying to explain my position, but quickly saw it wasn't going to help matters. So I did the reasonable thing.... I BACKED OFF and let things settle down. I didn't post again for a few months and all was fine. Others would have kept pressing their point.
Not to worry Bob. I was just handed a three month ban for calling them fascist censors for editing one sentence about a parlor guitar I am going to sell in a long thread about playing scales. They referenced a previous thread of mine about the luthier I came to know courtesy of dwgpreacher and an OM build of his I sold to an AGF'r after posting about it there. They made an assumption I must be a dealer for this guy and promptly told me to buy a $99.00 a month merchant account. For selling two guitars that weren't mine. The first time it was my fault for not being aware of the rules about owning the git you are selling. I apologized for that and bought a charter membership for good measure. They accused me this time of surreptitiously trying to sell one of his guitars by mentioning it in another thread. I merely meant to communicate I wasn't keeping it, hence the fascist censor comment. The really f'd up part of it is I can't even get into the site to request a prorated refund of my membership! Oh well, WWJD (Jon) |
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Off shore guitars