Posted 2012-10-09 11:18 AM (#460167) Subject: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
Well maybe.
I should know more in the next month of so.
It is my understanding that Fender has named a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
I know you may have heard this stuff before but Fender does have the backing to make it happen.
Posted 2012-10-09 4:26 PM (#460195 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Maybe he (or she?) should join the forum and open up a dialogue here. I know there is some risk in soliciting uncontrolled feedback, but it would serve as one source of input from a group of Ovation fanatics.
Posted 2012-10-09 5:17 PM (#460196 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
My question ( or goal if I were in their shoes ) would be to ask, " What can we do to broaden the appeal and not lose the diehards ! " My concern would be that the fanatics already think it's all good and wonder why others aren't buying Ovation guitars.
However, I think that even among the diehards there are perceptions that have hurt their bottom line. For instance. Buy an American made model and not an over seas one. In my case, that got me a really cool 12 string in the used market, but it didn't give Ovation one CENT of profit. How do you change that view ?
Another notion that gets mentioned a lot is that, " Ovations used to be the go to guitar for built in pickups and live performances, but other brands have surpassed them. " . The current trend seems to be the mixed "mic + saddle pickup" combination that allows you to dial in the balance. No reason Ovation couldn't offer that as an option in plenty of their guitars. In fact, that could be used as an option to get people to buy new instruments AND offer it in the midrange and higher guitars to get player to see and hear a difference between the different model lines. Give them a reason to not just buy a low end Celebrity and think all Ovations sound the same.
Here's as a question I was going to ask, which I'm sure all you long time forum guys already discussed. Why are the least expensive Ovations some times to BEST looking ones ? Outside of some of those custom jobs that some of you have, the cool looking tops are on Celebrities. They have Elite hole patterns. They come in mid and shallow bowls and have pick-ups. If some unlearned player walked in a music store the first Ovations they would be drawn to are the low end ones. I'm not sure that's a good marketing plan.
Sorry. I know Al didn't ask for opinions, but I had to get some off my chest.
Posted 2012-10-09 5:25 PM (#460197 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I'm going to jump in early on this and make a suggestion to US. We know whomever is in place will likely either know about us, or visit us. So lets try to be helpful and if making suggestions, base them on things that you would/will in fact buy.
Personally I would like to see a nice, basic, entry level, Made in the USA, guitar or at least assembled in the USA. Much like the Ultra or the early Matrix/Medallion. Nice low price point.
On the other end I'd like to see a $10,000 Adamas in the catalog. Now granted this breaks my "would-i-buyit" suggestion above, but this has been a long time coming. Anyone who has an OFC II version of the 2080 would have likely paid a little more for it and if it came with a Carbon Fibre case... the suggested retail would certainly be near that $10,000 mark. Why isn't the Adamas in with all the other brands high-priced guitars in the "special" room.... because the Adamas is NOT a high-priced guitar, it's just the top of the line Ovation. I could go on, but I think this is self-explanatory.
Upgrade the iDea. Turn it from cool gadget to working tool. With the addition of a removable microSD card and some software management tools for MAC/PC... Imagine programming your whole gig of backup music on your guitar. Your whole catalog maybe. I would even support control from an iPod or Android device, but it would have to be wireless. If you had 1000 tunes on it, you'd have to have a way to select the tunes from something other than the device itself and adding more wires to a guitar is not a good option. But yes, this is something I would buy even if it was just the same basic unit as it is now, with a removable STANDARD memory card.
Posted 2012-10-09 6:58 PM (#460201 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
A lot of us thought that the K1111 reissue was one of the best sounding guitars Ovation ever built. Something like that but with modern appointments. And a preamp with a really great, warm, acoustic sound (like Tak's Cool Tube?).
Then you've got to get it out there in the hands of the visible performers.
Posted 2012-10-09 7:13 PM (#460203 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
Ovation has always been for those people who look forwards, not backwards. So regurgitating old models will get Ovation the same results as the Traditional Series and the Reissues when they tried that in the mid 2000's. Which was close to nada/zip.
Make something modern like the OFC2. With a preamp that supports bluetooth ... including pedals for loopers and controls. Built-in wireless so you can go cable free to your amp or board, and for upgrading software. Built-in effects. An SD card slot like Miles suggested for adding various patches, sounds, and features. Maybe even a midi function with built-in sounds.
Make it futuristic to the nth degree. Take advantage of all the new technologies and electronics. Strive for the most advanced, coolest thing on the planet. People pay good money for new, interesting gadgets. And there are huge number of people who will pay big dollars for something they consider totally cool.
Keep making all the old models offshore for those who want to remain in the past.
Posted 2012-10-09 7:15 PM (#460204 - in reply to #460197) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2011 Posts: 741
Location: Fort Worth, TX
mileskb - 2012-10-09 5:25 PM
Upgrade the iDea. Turn it from cool gadget to working tool. With the addition of a removable microSD card and some software management tools for MAC/PC... Imagine programming your whole gig of backup music on your guitar. Your whole catalog maybe. I would even support control from an iPod or Android device, but it would have to be wireless. If you had 1000 tunes on it, you'd have to have a way to select the tunes from something other than the device itself and adding more wires to a guitar is not a good option. But yes, this is something I would buy even if it was just the same basic unit as it is now, with a removable STANDARD memory card.
That's one awesome idea right there. I'd buy one too.
Posted 2012-10-09 7:16 PM (#460205 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
I managed to get my hands on an older Custom Legend. I have it here in my shop and it is the very first thing EVERYONE gravitates to. There are always going to be people who like bling, and the Custom Legend has the most TASTEFUL bling I have ever seen on any guitar. Even the Taylor fanatics love it because it sounds as good as it looks.
The Adamas' always catch people's eyes too, and when they hear them, even the Martin people are blown away.
The only complaint I ever hear about Ovations are "the round backs slip". I don't happen to have any contour bowls here in the shop (my 2077LX stays by my chair in the living room), but those things are COMFORTABLE.
I KNOW there is a market for USA Ovations here in the mid-west. Whenever I get a used one in, it's gone within days. I have people come in asking if I have any for sale. (The Custom Legend and the Adamas I keep here are not for sale.) Just last week a guy came in asking for an Ovation 12-string. I told him I'd try to find him one and yesterday, low and behold, I got one in. It'll be gone tomorrow.
I know the buy-in for new Ovations is probably more than what a small shop like mine can afford, but if Fender would LOWER the buy-in, I would be SO PROUD to sell new Ovations here, and I know I would sell lots.
Posted 2012-10-09 7:20 PM (#460207 - in reply to #460201) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2011 Posts: 741
Location: Fort Worth, TX
immoody - 2012-10-09 6:58 PM
A lot of us thought that the K1111 reissue was one of the best sounding guitars Ovation ever built.
The one I have IS the best sounding acoustic I've ever had. I know y'all are tired of hearing it, but I refer to it as the Stradivarius O. Beats the heck out of my Martin D28 Custom. When I play it in a large ensemble, mic'd thru the soundboard, I get tons of compliments on the sound from the other musicians and singers who hear it in their in ear monitors. Makes me feel downright proud.
Posted 2012-10-09 8:23 PM (#460208 - in reply to #460206) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
alpep - 2012-10-09 5:18 PM
K 1111 did not sell well at all even though it was an awesome guitar.
why?
to most kids they have no clue who Glenn campbell is
and
it lacks the blind that makes people want to buy something.
I think a balance respect to the old along with a radical new thing is in order.
"Blind"? You mean bling. That's why I said it had to have modern features and then Fender needs to work tirelessly to get it into performers' hands. Otherwise it will be the great guitar that nobody plays. Time to put Campbell out to pasture and find the new up and comers......
Posted 2012-10-09 9:13 PM (#460210 - in reply to #460205) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
CanterburyStrings - 2012-10-09 5:16 PM The only complaint I ever hear about Ovations are "the round backs slip". I don't happen to have any contour bowls here in the shop (my 2077LX stays by my chair in the living room), but those things are COMFORTABLE.
When I bought my first Ovation, a medium depth, cut-away model with the strap button on the bass upper bout, this was my biggest disappointment with the guitar.
It always felt like it was trying to slip out from under my right arm. And, the weird angle it assumed when it did get stable made my left wrist uncomfortable.
Never one to shy away from modifying my guitars to suit my own tastes, I moved the strap button to the under side of the neck. This immediately fixed the slipping problem.
I recently bought a 2078TX with deep contour bowl and cut-away. The strap button was also mounted on the bass bout. I found that even this 'improved' design wanted to slip away.
So, I modified it by moving the strap button to the same place and now it feels as solid as all my flat-back guitars.
After the 2078TX, I bought a 1624-4 and its strap button is mounted on the treble bout. Even though this has a round back, it doesn't want to slip away under the weight of my right arm.
So, my suggestion for Ovation is to fix the slip on the cut-aways by simply moving the strap button to the spot shown in the photo below and let gravity work for the player instead of against him.
Posted 2012-10-09 9:52 PM (#460212 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2005 Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia
My suggestion relates to branding and marketing.
Why not call an Ovation an 'Ovation' and call a Celebrity a 'Celebrity', thereby giving the Ovation brand (specifically the US made ones) a bit of separation from the entry level overseas stuff.
Fender has Squier guitars, Gibson have Epiphones - both respected for what they are, but they AREN'T Fenders or Gibsons. I've never understood why Ovation didn't adopt that strategy.
"I've got this nice Squier, but one day I'd like to own a 'proper' Fender!"
"I've got this nice Celebrity, but one day I'd like to own a 'proper' Ovation!"
Posted 2012-10-09 10:25 PM (#460215 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ
Maybe a bid radical, but I think they should forget the whole idea of building acoustic and acoustic electric guitars. The Fender umbrella has Fender, Guild and Takamine to cover all the bases necessary as far as acoustics and A/E go. And of course Fender (and to a minor extent Guild) more than cover the electric needs.
What Ovation USA should do is focus solely on the VIPER/VXT/Modeled Acoustic/Variax/Whatever market. The EA Viper line in its day was stellar and frequented many stages. Couple it with more modern technology and modeling capabilities and you could dominate that niche market. And it's a market that is surprisingly stable. If you can't beat them at their game, define your OWN game.
Posted 2012-10-09 11:39 PM (#460221 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
"Time to put Campbell out to pasture"
Harsh.
And easier said than done. It seems that a lot of the fav's that are posted on this board are typically 67 to mid 80's O's. Ovation now and Ovation then are incomparable, in all aspects, from manufacturing to marketing. To wit "Fender does have the backing to do it". Danger, Will Robinson, fox in the henhouse.
Paul...I think I will sit out in that pasture with Glen, picking my pasteurized Ovation, while I watch what use to be the competition continue to marginalize a once great American company. Demographics have changed as much as ownership. FMC is only going to do what's best for the bottom line.
All of us guys that are going out to pasture with Glen, really don't matter any more. Heck, we can barely buy 50 calendars, much less 50 new Ovations. Bobo is on target, but who the hell could afford that guitar in the #'s that would justify its creation? All those fresh faces at Guitar Center, that are working at McDonalds?
The look, the sound, the feel that is special to us... failed to transcend into todays market and the driving force that brought Ovation to prominence beat Glen to the pasture years ago.
Hopefully my membership will not be revoked for this post.
Posted 2012-10-10 12:14 AM (#460223 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
I would agree that it would be nicer to have " Celebrity by Ovation " or " Applause by Ovation " and then simply Ovation for the higher priced stuff.
I think the problem we have is we don't know where Ovation sits in Fender's plans. What instrument niche is not filled by their other holdings ? Where does FENDER think the product line should be ? Some bean counter is at some point going to ask how having ALL these brands helps the company and only the standout, money making, lines are going to stick around. So... the big question should be, " What changes would you like to see so that Ovation sells enough for Fender to keep them around ? ".
There is ONE thing the brand has always had. Visual recognition. You can tell an Ovation by sight, without needing to read the headstock. They have also always been known to have an electric guitar like neck and are easy to play. I don't know how that works into Fenders questions, but those are two things EVERY guitarist can agree on.
Posted 2012-10-10 6:16 AM (#460234 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
Ovation (Fender) should just spend 90% of it's marketing and development $'s on getting the right, POPULAR, celebrity endorsements. From country to pop to rock and roll. They need to be seen at the MTV and the CMT music awards, and on Youtube. That's all it would take to generate sales and traffic. And speaking of endorsers, the guitar must be affordable to their particular target market. A $2500+ "signature" guitar is not going to be bought by young people working at vintage clothing stores, Richard's Whole Foods, or Starbucks. Besides that, the target market has to be bigger than 173 people.
There's really nothing wrong with the product they are producing, Asian OR domestic.
Posted 2012-10-10 6:32 AM (#460235 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2008 Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia
I think that a few tweaks are important - Ovation made its name by looking forward - but the biggest thing is marketing. Use Fender's marketing power to insist that Fender dealers carry a certain number of Ovations, including something in the upper price range. There was a suggestion about a very high end Ovation - how about revising the Q and making the bowl and neck out of carbon fibre - a contour bowl Q, with the look of an OFC II?
Posted 2012-10-10 7:52 AM (#460238 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ
With all due respect ... any suggestion that starts with "Bring back ... " is probably not the direction Ovation needs to go. Just my opinion.
If I was in charge of the think tank I would brainstorm that every proposal start with the words "Invent ..., Develop ..., Explore ..., Define ... etc "
Posted 2012-10-10 8:23 AM (#460239 - in reply to #460235) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan
I don't think celebrity endorsements are as effective as they were back when.
The music business is just to fragmented. We don't listen to the same music anymore. We're all in our own little bubble doing our individual I-pod shuffle. Back in the day we listened to Glen en-mass .... as a culture.... as a country. You couldn't get away from it. Besides... how many popular front men with guitars are out there anyway? You can have the top 5 of them all playing Ovations and they would not have a quarter of the influence Glen had.
We've even lost the power of an album cover photo.
Fender would do better to endorse and support the Usual Suspects.
Hell.... sign 'em all up and send 'em out on the road!
.
I like a combination of StandingOvation's & Bobbos's idea. There has to be a number of Hamer craftsmen still at the Mothership that need something to do.
.
It's an old pipe dream around here to label a Celeb a Celeb and an O an O.
Maybe now the brand has been diluted, vilified, and torn asunder enough for that to happen.
Then again, maybe there is more de-construction to be done.
.
I'm glad to hear Fender has appointed a new product manager for Ovation.
Posted 2012-10-10 8:49 AM (#460241 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
I agree with Dave to some extent. Bring back the EA Viper line with modern upgrades, maybe add a magnetic pick-up with the VXT blend control. Another area where Ovation/Adamas tends to corner the market is in their SSB acoustic electrics. Has any other manufacturer produced shallow bodied acoustic electrics in the volume and over the years like Ovation? Of course, the problem with this is that they're really best for live performers which may limit their appeal to strictly home players.
Posted 2012-10-10 10:03 AM (#460243 - in reply to #460240) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-10 7:46 AM
Fender probably doesn't (and shouldn't) care what 98% of us on this forum think. They need to care what 15 to 30 year olds think.
Maybe the scariest thing Bob has ever said. Fender would need to get into the acne medicine, smart phone or video game business.
You guys were really working on this when I was listening to Ben Stein last night. I don't have a lot of faith in what 15 to 30 year olds think, if anything, but they do seem to stand in line to spend money on the latest toy. I don't have any good ideas for Fender to sell to that market. Miles' ideas might be the closest, but when Ovation came out with the iDea, I thought it was something the kids would love, but my kid and her friends were totally bored with it. They didn't like the guitar, but probably would have liked the preamp in a traditional Ovation, like a sunburst Balladeer.
I also loved the VXT, but it died fast. It was poorly marketed and might not have fit the market. It's a great tool for someone who wants one guitar to do two things. But no stage performer would use it to show off to the market, because performers always have more than one guitar. They don't need a hybrid. So no kid is going to see a VXT being used on stage and decide he needs one like that guy.
OK. I've got nothing positive so far. Here's more--stop making Fender acoustics. They did nothing for the company. Focus on Guilds and Ovations. Stick with the lower end Celebrities to get the kids started on some branding. You have to change the idea that a kid with a Celebrity is going to save money to upgrade to some other brand like a Taylor. Get the Custom Legends, Elites and Adamases into some performers hands, even if they're Country performers, so the kids start thinking they'll trade up their Celebrities for a Custom Legend. Unfortunately, like Slipkid said, people spend more time listening to stuff on their phones than they watch concerts. Get some Ovations out on the talent shows before they die off.
Glen Campbell is still hugely popular, by the way, but probably not with guitar buyers. Sad to say that rap and hip hop are still popular and those people don't sell guitars. Do something to put them out to pasture.
Posted 2012-10-10 10:37 AM (#460249 - in reply to #460243) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
"Glen Campbell is still hugely popular, by the way, but probably not with guitar buyers."
Mark, although you will see Glen knoodling on an ovation acoustic when interviewed around the house, he certainly did not use one in his last two video's and in concert uses a EA68, which visually doesnt represent Ovation acoustics. I think it was a great relationship early on and both benefited from it. Paul probably can chime in here, but it seems like the last Ovation acoustic Glen really wanted to be seen with was his 1537 or 87C and that was 20+ some odd years ago.
" hip hop are still popular and those people don't sell guitars. Do something to put them out to pasture."
Posted 2012-10-10 11:05 AM (#460250 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2003 Posts: 13996
Location: Upper Left USA
I have honestly never met a Fender acoustic that I have liked. There are plenty of 80's Yamaha entry level acoustics that are actually coming into their own.
Posted 2012-10-10 11:09 AM (#460251 - in reply to #460234) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-11 5:16 AM
Ovation (Fender) should just spend 90% of it's marketing and development $'s on getting the right, POPULAR, celebrity endorsements. From country to pop to rock and roll. They need to be seen at the MTV and the CMT music awards, and on Youtube. That's all it would take to generate sales and traffic. And speaking of endorsers, the guitar must be affordable to their particular target market. A $2500+ "signature" guitar is not going to be bought by young people working at vintage clothing stores, Richard's Whole Foods, or Starbucks. Besides that, the target market has to be bigger than 173 people.
There's really nothing wrong with the product they are producing, Asian OR domestic.
I agree. I think the reason Ovations are so popular here is because so many people play them on stage here. I started playing open mics, weddings, fundraisers, and even an occasional paid performance when I moved here eight years ago. People started asking me about my guitar. Then when I opened the shop and started hosting Saturday jam sessions, all of my regulars asked me to find Ovations for them. Now on a typical Saturday there are about ten Ovation/Adamas players to two Martin players and a couple of Yamahas.
All of the O players also play shows in the area, and people ask about their guitars. The next thing I know, a customer drives up from Nebraska saying he saw "so-and-so" in a performance in their area and they told him they got their Ovation from me. They are sincerely looking to buy one just based on hearing/seeing one on stage.
Get them out there and they will sell on their own merits.
Posted 2012-10-10 12:05 PM (#460256 - in reply to #460243) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
Mark in Boise - 2012-10-10 11:03 AM
Maybe the scariest thing Bob has ever said.
I truly believe that Ovation will not survive trying to market to OUR demographic. That's what they HAVE been doing and it is no longer working (and hasn't been working for quite some time). Keep in mind, Ovation is now owned by a large public corporation that is losing millions of dollars, and is millions of dollars in debt. They are probably in board meetings trying to decide whether to shut Ovation down, sell the brand, or give it one last big time marketing push. They HAVE to go after the younger market to sell NEW guitars to. For the most part, we here on the OFC are all bottom feeding for super deals on pre-owned USA O's. THAT'S not going to keep them in business.
Posted 2012-10-10 12:33 PM (#460257 - in reply to #460249) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
amosmoses - 2012-10-10 9:37 AM
"Glen Campbell is still hugely popular, by the way, but probably not with guitar buyers."
Mark, although you will see Glen knoodling on an ovation acoustic when interviewed around the house, he certainly did not use one in his last two video's and in concert uses a EA68, which visually doesnt represent Ovation acoustics. I think it was a great relationship early on and both benefited from it. Paul probably can chime in here, but it seems like the last Ovation acoustic Glen really wanted to be seen with was his 1537 or 87C and that was 20+ some odd years ago.
" hip hop are still popular and those people don't sell guitars. Do something to put them out to pasture."
LOL...there goes the (pasture) neighborhood.
When I saw Glen in concert in Phoenix, there were 2 or 3 Ovations being used throughout, but I don't recall Glen ever playing anything other than an electric of a different brand. Ovations are instantly identifiable on stage, unlike most other brands, which has to be useful for marketing if they'd get them in the hands of the performers.
Anyone have any idea if the Guitar Hero fad ever led to sales of real guitars? Fender has to know the demographics of who buys guitars these days and we assume it's the young kids, but I'm not so sure. I was at a Chamber of Commerce banquet last night and started talking to someone about guitars. A 70 year old just traded in his American Tele that he bought new a couple years ago for an American Strat. I have bought 5 or 6 new guitars in the last 5 years or so. I bet young kids aren't buying that many. There are a ton of baby boomers like me that played in high school or college and are getting back in the market now that we're empty nesters or on the eve of retirement.
Posted 2012-10-10 12:52 PM (#460258 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2002 Posts: 3650
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
"For the most part, we here on the OFC are all bottom feeding for super deals on pre-owned USA O's. THAT'S not going to keep them in business."
#1- I resemble that remark,
AND
#2- You are absitively right.
We are not the future-oriented demographic, but are more in the enviable position of having the money, & having the time. Well, that's my delusion, and I'm stickin' to it!
Posted 2012-10-10 2:24 PM (#460265 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
Just look what the dude from Queens of the Stone Age did for the Ultra GP?
Just cuz of one dude on stage the value of an old guitar went-up 1000%.
As to getting people to admit that they like Ovations?...
I have people come-up to me every day an comment on my Ovations...
(admittedly I am out there everyday)
But it is Very Rare that I have had anyone disrespect the Ovation brand.
A few people who play Martins and such say that they don't like the round back...
(the same people who don't like undersaddle pickups and prefer soundboard transducers)
But no one has ever come-up to me to tell me that Ovations suck.
I do have many young'uns come-up to ask "What kind of guitar is That?"
Now I always look to see what brand of guitar someone is playing on TV.
Taylors, and the occasional Takamine. And some Telecasters.
So maybe it would help to get some Elites and Adamii out on the Tube.
(Roundhole Ovations just don't have that visual impact )
Posted 2012-10-10 2:32 PM (#460267 - in reply to #460262) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
Seems to me that fancy-*** preamps may also soon be old news. When you can have eq, tuner, volume, any and all effects you want loaded on your iPad plus all your songs, backing tracks, and lyrics, who needs a big ol' preamp with wires and batteries and all. A passive pup direct to an iPad would be all you need, right?
Posted 2012-10-10 5:18 PM (#460273 - in reply to #460272) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan
As I post my son is using my VXT with a Roland Cube.
He loves it.
Given how well my 3 acoustic and 2 electric Ovations have held up over the years, he may never have to buy a new guitar.
Posted 2012-10-10 6:53 PM (#460277 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
As a simple suggestion, I think "finger style" stuff is gaining some popularity and often people like the softer woods, like Cedar and even Redwood. Would it be that hard to add some nice alternate wood tops to the Balladeer and above instruments ? It seems things beyond Spruce is very rare in the standard price ranges. Yes, the Adamas line has options and I think a very few Elites have as well. But sometimes, I think there is a market for a simple , but well made, guitar with nice alternate solid woods , under $1000 MSRP.
Posted 2012-10-11 1:47 AM (#460289 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
One 2080 in the hands of Lady Gaga in one of her commercials for her Fame perfume and they won't be able to hire people fast enough to fill all the orders for 2080's. And in case you think I'm joking... Search YouTube "Lada Gaga Guitar" and you get over 110,000 !!!! covers of Gaga tunes on guitar. I'm just say'n... Want perspective... there are only 276,000 results for "Beatles guitar" Oh, yeah... Beatles have how many Albums?? Gaga has ONLY THREE !!! Again.. I'm just say'n..
Posted 2012-10-11 6:36 PM (#460300 - in reply to #460289) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
mileskb - 2012-10-10 11:47 PM
One 2080 in the hands of Lady Gaga in one of her commercials for her Fame perfume and they won't be able to hire people fast enough to fill all the orders for 2080's...
You bring up a good point. Advertisers in different sports, NASCAR for example, know that the loyalty of the fans for their sports figure is transferred to the company that sponsors them, which translates into sales dollars for the sponsor.
I've seen a lot of O ads featuring various artists over the years. Do you know, were these artists sponsored by O and paid to appear in the ads or were they big fans of the instruments and they agreed to appear in the ads out of loyalty to the brand?
Posted 2012-10-11 11:38 PM (#460305 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1559
Location: Indiana
Some were just playing the newest free guitar given to them, yes. Some became infatuated with other free guitars, yes. Some of my friends genuinely fell in love with other makes. I respect that.
As a former endorser, I will say that some of us didn't want an improvement on the k-bar neck or other advancements over the old school O's and A's. However, it was known as a progressive company and in their quest to move forward, just moved to far away from the instruments that had made us fans in the first place... but made new fans in the process... Can't fault the company on that... especially when they'd built bullet proof guitars that last and don't need to be replaced every new model year if you're not a collector. I am certainly guilty of having a working stable of instruments and not being a buyer of new product.
Interestingly, I have one old friend, who's name would flow much easily off your tongues than mine... who played my A at a show we did in Texas a few years back, perked up and told me fondly how many he still had in a closet at home... and the next time I saw him on TV, he was playing one of his old 1681's. Life goes on, and Miles (and others) are right, gotta go for the new blood endorsers. That, and keeping (getting) the product in the stores will keep the brand alive, not necessarily the opinions of old farts like me.
Just 2 cents.
Posted 2012-10-12 12:23 AM (#460306 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
So, why AREN'T they in brick and mortar stores these days ? You can't buy them if you don't see them and get to play them. Yeah, there is online, but how many new players are going to take a flyer on an Ovation, with no experience with them ?
Do you know why I bought an Ovation, back in about 1979 ? I was trying to save up for a Guild D-55 and went to the music store to buy a songbook for a new record I had and saw this Legend on the wall. I gave it a try, for grins, and the NECK stood out. This thing seemed so easy to play, compared to my old Kay guitar with a wider neck. It sounded good and was a used one, going for about half what I would have to save for that D-55. So, I borrowed the money from my Grandmother ( $400 ) and took it home. Still have it. But the point was that it played so nice. You can't tell that from an online seller, unless all the reviews make a point of it, I guess.
Posted 2012-10-12 3:38 AM (#460309 - in reply to #460306) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
JohnW63 - 2012-10-11 10:23 PM
but how many new players are going to take a flyer on an Ovation, with no experience with them ?
Actually... most. There are more guitars sold online, including eBay then anywhere else, hand down. While I haven't found any data... it's likely on the order of 100 online sales to one in-store sale or more. Just think about it... How many stores are there any more? One number I came up with is 18,000 Musical Instrument Stores. Seems high, but I'll go with it as it's the only number I came up with from a reasonable source. Now, how many 1000's of guitars are sold each year? Obviously people are buying them someplace besides stores.
So how does the young musician decide? They see one someplace (likely TV or Movie or Concert) that appeals to them.
It is my understanding that most of the Ovation endorsers purchased their guitars. Maybe at a discount, or for some trade of using it in photos and such, but they seemed to have taken pride that if you saw them on the list of endorsers... they actually played the guitar and on the part of Ovation, they put it in hands of some great players.
I'm not sure that model works anymore mainly because some of the greatest guitar players these days are never or rarely seen by the public. You can count the stadium tours on one hand these days. There are however a lot of "pop" musicians on all the charts that are good players that are seen playing guitars. They are not guitar legends, they are just people who play. Those artists should be the target, and they are the target of folks like Taylor who it seems will give a guitar to anyone who can spell Taylor. But, like it or not, they end up generating a lot of sales that way.
Ovation has to somehow find a way to walk that line of getting guitars into peoples hands and still be recognized as the company with integrity. I think they can do it. I think Fender is actually in a better position to do it than Ovation by itself was for the last bunch of years.
Posted 2012-10-12 9:17 AM (#460313 - in reply to #460277) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
JohnW63 - 2012-10-10 6:53 PM
As a simple suggestion, I think "finger style" stuff is gaining some popularity and often people like the softer woods, like Cedar and even Redwood. Would it be that hard to add some nice alternate wood tops to the Balladeer and above instruments ? It seems things beyond Spruce is very rare in the standard price ranges. Yes, the Adamas line has options and I think a very few Elites have as well. But sometimes, I think there is a market for a simple , but well made, guitar with nice alternate solid woods , under $1000 MSRP.
this is truly the unrealistic response I was hoping I would not get on this thread.
you want a USA made guitar with a premium top for under 1K msrp
maybe in the 80's but tell me one yes ONE manufacturer that makes guitar in the usa that can offer that?
the cost of materials alone is prohibited.
let's put this in perspective. the last usa built elite t guitars were something like 1199 list.
now these guitars were able to use lesser grade cosmetic tops because of the finish.
sorry to jump over your post but this will NEVER happen.
if you want a rolls royce you have to pay for it if you want transportation to and from work you can wait at the bus station or buy a kia
Posted 2012-10-12 9:21 AM (#460314 - in reply to #460306) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4067
Location: Utah
JohnW63 - 2012-10-12 12:23 AM
So, why AREN'T they in brick and mortar stores these days ? You can't buy them if you don't see them and get to play them. Yeah, there is online, but how many new players are going to take a flyer on an Ovation, with no experience with them ?
My 20 yr old daughter Sara has approached me twice in the past month for info to help someone who wants to buy an Ovation. One of those is an employee at the local mom-pop store where they have a couple of Applause on display but he knows he wants something much better. People see her playing a show or in this case they are jamming at the store and they fall in love with Ovation and Adamas.
As Alison said, when people see and hear an O or A even at a coffee shop they want one for themselves.
mileskb - 2012-10-11 1:47 AM
One 2080 in the hands of Lady Gaga in one of her commercials for her Fame perfume and they won't be able to hire people fast enough to fill all the orders for 2080's. And in case you think I'm joking... Search YouTube "Lada Gaga Guitar" and you get over 110,000 !!!! covers of Gaga tunes on guitar.
Posted 2012-10-12 7:54 PM (#460345 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal
John, there are other tops but usually in the Collectors series...a couple are Redwood in 2001, Koa in 2009...Al is right, I really don't expect that you will find non-standard, quality wood unless it is not wood but laminate.
I would sell my redwood 2001C but not anywhere near $1,000. Try $2,000 and I might negotiate a little.
So, we might find guitars below $1,000 with killer looking tops but with laminate which will never (at least as an acoustic) compete with the USA Ovation, Martin, Taylor, etc. If acoustic sound is secondary but appearance and amped sound is important, the Celebrity line is great.
Fender has now converted the factory to primarily make Guilds. From what I have seen and been told, the Guild line is as good or better than it has ever been. Yet, I have not seen a Connecticut Guild in a mass marketing store (i.e., Guitar Center) or a upscale store like Buffalo Brothers. So much for Fender's marketing ability.
Unfortunately, I don't expect that we will see future Connecticut Ovations/Adamas (other than a few customs). I don't believe the profit margin is there for Fender to make it part of their product line. Fender is having enough problems with its primary lines (Fender, Squire, amps, etc.)
as well as receivables such as Guitar Center's $11 million owed (as of 7/20/2012).
Posted 2012-10-12 8:02 PM (#460346 - in reply to #460309) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1559
Location: Indiana
mileskb - 2012-10-12 3:38 AM
It is my understanding that most of the Ovation endorsers purchased their guitars. Maybe at a discount, or for some trade of using it in photos and such, but they seemed to have taken pride that if you saw them on the list of endorsers...
FWIW, I was given a significant discount... not free guitars. I know others who had different deals. Personally, I was proud to be an Ovation artist... Very proud, and equally proud to answer questions about these truly unique instruments after every show. Still am.
Posted 2012-10-12 8:02 PM (#460347 - in reply to #460309) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1559
Location: Indiana
mileskb - 2012-10-12 3:38 AM
It is my understanding that most of the Ovation endorsers purchased their guitars. Maybe at a discount, or for some trade of using it in photos and such, but they seemed to have taken pride that if you saw them on the list of endorsers...
FWIW, I was given a significant discount... not free guitars. I know others who had different deals. Personally, I was proud to be an Ovation artist... Very proud, and equally proud to answer questions about these truly unique instruments after every show. Still am.
Posted 2012-10-13 1:40 PM (#460371 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
Al made a really good point earlier. A quality USA built Ovation/Adamas will cost. On ebay, the 1681 WT, which is a modern version of the 1537 has an ask of $3600. In 1983 they went for $1200. A new D-28 runs, what? $2400? A Gibson J-45 $2200?
I don't know how or what Fender is going to do. Go for the low end market? High end? Super shallow bowls? Deep/contour bowls? If I was going to buy a new Ovation/Adamii, I'd be looking for a great sounding acoustic guitar that I could plug in. But I doubt if I'm a target market.
The only thing that I'd really like to see is more differentiation between Ovations and Celebrities. There's not a lot now and when a lot of people think of Ovations, they are actually thinking of Celebrites.
One other observation. In videos put out by Ovation and on their webpage, they have celeb endorsements talking about why they play Ovations. But most of them are holding Celebrities. Why?
I suspect that things are going to change. It will be interesting to see how......
Posted 2012-10-13 2:27 PM (#460372 - in reply to #460371) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
immoody - 2012-10-13 11:40 AM
The only thing that I'd really like to see is more differentiation between Ovations and Celebrities. There's not a lot now and when a lot of people think of Ovations, they are actually thinking of Celebrities.
So, nowadays there is not much difference between a Korean Ovation and a Korean Celebrity.
I have a Brand-spankin'-New 1778TX. It compares well with my previous CSE Celebrity's.
It has a Solid Top and a 3-piece Dovetail neck. (I am getting ready to take it out in the drizzle)
Soon, (next Tuesday?) I will be blessed with a 2007 1778T, then I will be able to do a true side-by-side.
But nowadays USA Ovations a getting scarcer...
It has been Four Years since the move to Korea, so most USA Ovations are only available on the Used Market, unless you are Custom Ordering.
So most Ovations that people get to play ARE Celebrity's or renamed Ultras.
Posted 2012-10-13 5:18 PM (#460376 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
this is truly the unrealistic response I was hoping I would not get on this thread.
you want a USA made guitar with a premium top for under 1K msrp
sorry to jump over your post but this will NEVER happen.
Hang on, Al, but I never said it had to be USA made. Go read my post. All I suggested in a different top than spruce that would appeal to a different style of playing. All the Balladeers have an MSRP of about $1000. At Guitar Center, they sell new for $700. If you are going to tell me that simply putting Cedar or some other nice tone wood on one of those is impossible and keep the price at or under $1000, then there is something seriously wrong. There is no WAY it should cost $300 to put something other than spruce on a guitar, when all it is is the TOP.
There is more to guitar playing than Carbon Fiber, Spruce, and plywood tops with a fancy laminate top layer.
If you follow any other guitar forums you'll see plenty of people purchasing guitar that are NOT the stock Spruce over Mahogany or Spruce over Rosewood these days. Many, many, builders are trying out all sorts of woods and having success with them. An Ovation build is much simpler. Just a top piece.
I really hope this is not the sort of response I would get from Ovation.
Posted 2012-10-14 1:51 AM (#460385 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
New Guitars from New Hartford is the same as "New Guitars from Ovation " , is it not ? If it means ONLY guitars from New Hartford, where are the GUILD ideas ?
If the goal of the post was to let us know Fender wanted input on the very top of the line and custom shop instruments, then the thread was lost from the get go. I found this elsewhere on the web.
"As far as USA models go, from here on out all USA-made Ovations and Adamas guitars are custom order only."
Pretty pointless if all they want is custom order ideas and not ones that will help their bottom line.
Posted 2012-10-14 7:03 AM (#460387 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
To be fair to JohnW63 (and everyone knows I'm ALWAYS fair), nothing in the opening post implied we were limiting the discussing to USA-made Ovations.
I took "New Ovation Product Manager" to mean a guy in charge of ALL Ovation R&D, US and Foreign.
So, to John's point, on paper it seems that Korea should be able to upgrade a current $700 spruce top Balladeer with a wide neck and a exotic top for $999.99 and call it a cheap "fingerstyle" guitar. Probably wouldn't sell tho, as fingerstyle players tend to be better players and buy higher end wood boxes.
Posted 2012-10-14 3:18 PM (#460391 - in reply to #460387) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
I would hope that finger style is more about the sound and thus what ever instrument produces the sound you want would be your choice. If a "wooden box" instrument sounds better to them, then maybe Ovation needs to work on that. Not a few people say the Maton guitars do not sound good unplugged, but with Tommy Emmanuel behind them, I see a lot of Maton's on you tube now with finger style players.
The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years. Look at the guitars you guys all recommend. Does anyone get excited about any of their new stuff ? Maybe the textured finish, but while it might make sense, from an engineering point of view, it's certainly NOT getting the rest of the guitar community to rush out. They think it's truck bed liner paint or something.
I hope they can come out with a guitar that is a reasonable price, that when it is reviewed, it doesn't have the usual asterisks. " If you like that sort of sound. " or " That appeals to some ".
Posted 2012-10-14 3:37 PM (#460392 - in reply to #460391) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 1:18 PM
They think it's truck bed liner paint or something.
I think that the discovery of the Textured Top was a Happy Accident.
People that love T's love the Sound that comes through that paint.
And you don't have to worry about pick-tracks or fingerprints.
The durability of the finish and the original price was also a Plus.
As far as innovation goes... Fender ain't producing "NEW" anything.
Fender continues to pedal reissues, SRV, Clapton and Gilmour Strats.
And the Squire Deluxe Hot Rails Stratocaster. (I got one)
Maybe they will allow the folks in New Hartford to be creative.
Nobody expected the VXT or the VIP or iDea preamp.
Maybe there will be another Happy Accident.
Posted 2012-10-14 4:25 PM (#460394 - in reply to #460391) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 1:18 PM . The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years. Look at the guitars you guys all recommend. Does anyone get excited about any of their new stuff ?
This the clearly the most ignorant statement I've read here in many years, perhaps ever.
I don't even know where to start. But suffice to say, my top 5 go to Ovation guitars have all been made in the last 6 or 7 years, and nearly all of the guitars made before 2000 have moved on with the exception of a few very rare ones that I keep for different reasons.
Posted 2012-10-14 4:43 PM (#460395 - in reply to #460391) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 4:18 PM
The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years.
What acoustic guitar maker, in your opinion, has come out with any HUGE innovations in the last 20 years?
Posted 2012-10-14 5:32 PM (#460397 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066
I would have to agree with Bobbo's statement.
With the exception of my original slothead, all of my Ovation guitars have been sold except for the ones that I have purchased in the last 7 years (which to my ears sound clearly superior)....and they were all purchased NEW!
Posted 2012-10-14 5:33 PM (#460398 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
This is a good point. And huge innovations don't always translate into big sales. Side sound ports, double tops, beveled arm rests, different bracing patterns. All of these came from small builders --- Ryan, Olson, etc. Martin comes out with a lot of models, as does Taylor. Gibson hasn't done anything very innovative in a long time.
You know, maybe we're just a quirky group of people that like the strange.......
Posted 2012-10-14 5:57 PM (#460399 - in reply to #460398) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
immoody - 2012-10-14 6:33 PM
And huge innovations don't always translate into big sales. Side sound ports, double tops, beveled arm rests, different bracing patterns.
Ovation could do all that to a new model and increase their sales numbers by.......three.
Posted 2012-10-14 6:53 PM (#460402 - in reply to #460394) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2008 Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia
stonebobbo - 2012-10-15 7:25 AM
JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 1:18 PM . The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years. Look at the guitars you guys all recommend. Does anyone get excited about any of their new stuff ?
This the clearly the most ignorant statement I've read here in many years, perhaps ever.
I don't even know where to start. But suffice to say, my top 5 go to Ovation guitars have all been made in the last 6 or 7 years, and nearly all of the guitars made before 2000 have moved on with the exception of a few very rare ones that I keep for different reasons.
I've bought 3 new Ovations in the last 4 years. The new features include contour bowl, VIP preamp, post-Kaman bar neck (2008C), 12 fret to the body (1680) and a Koa top with "blowhole" soundhole. Yes these are all high-end models, but some of this stuff flowed through to the cheaper models as well.
Posted 2012-10-14 9:41 PM (#460408 - in reply to #460397) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
stephent28 - 2012-10-14 3:32 PM
I would have to agree with Bobbo's statement.
With the exception of my original slothead, all of my Ovation guitars have been sold except for the ones that I have purchased in the last 7 years (which to my ears sound clearly superior)....and they were all purchased NEW!
Let's see... my go-to 6 string was built in 1983 (1537). My go-to 12 string was built in 1993 (Adamas I 12). The electric on my wall was built in 67-68 (Thunderhead). My OFC I slothead was built in 2007 but is a recreation of a guitar built in 1976. My sentimental favorite (A braced Legend) was rebuilt for me in 2009 but has retro features going back to the 1970's.
Not a modern Ovation/Adamas in the pile. It's not that I look down on modern O's/A's, it just that I'm happy with what I have.....
Posted 2012-10-14 10:45 PM (#460409 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
This the clearly the most ignorant statement I've read here in many years, perhaps ever.
You can thank Patch for pointing me in your direction.
Then tell me why all the advice I have seen here, current and in the threads I have searched all say, " Buy a USA made model. " and very few have good things to say about all the Korean models ? The best I have read is something along the lines of , " It's pretty good, but it's no American made Ovation. " List me the things they have out now, they didn't have in 1990.
Let me try starting the list:
1) Contour body as a choice.
2) Preamp that can record short clips
Your up next.
( Geez, All I did was suggest they might put something OTHER than spruce on an affordable guitar and try to recapture the "innovator" status, and you'd think I threw monkey poo at the Mona Lisa. )
Posted 2012-10-14 11:32 PM (#460411 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
In the last 20 years:
Carved chambered mahogany body with spruce top (EA series)
Mid-depth bowl
On-board tuner on preamp (optima)
Combined piezo/microphonic pickup (hex-fx)
Advanced Neck System (LX series)
Microsphere glass bowl (advanced Lyracord)
Interchangeable preamps (OP series)
SMT and CVT Adamas tops
Contour Bowl
Set neck designs (2008C and OFC2)
New sound hole designs (2080, Collectors 2006, +)
Laser cut inlaid epaulets
On board preamp "boost" button
Wood top Adamas with suspension ring
iDea preamp
These are the significant achievements that come immediately to mind ... I'm sure I left some important ones out. And I'm not including the wide variety of different woods that got used for tops, or general cosmetic stuff.
The engineering team was very active in pushing the envelope and probably still is. I will double down on my praise for the guitars from the last 10-12 years. There are plenty here that love the old stuff ... and I'm sure they'd yell at me to get off their lawn if I was walking by. ;-). That's OK, I know people who love to collect Corvairs, too. Sure, the old Ovations were great guitars. But for me, the new ones are flat out stinking great guitars.
Posted 2012-10-14 11:53 PM (#460413 - in reply to #460411) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066
stonebobbo - 2012-10-14 10:32 PM Sure, the old Ovations were great guitars. But for me, the new ones are flat out stinking great guitars.
Once again, I totally agree but you said it much better than I could.
The big problem is that most recommendations come with the "under $500 or in rarer cases under $1000" condition in which case, yes the older USA models are the best deal for the money in that price range but not necessarily the best gutars that Ovation makes by a long shot.
Posted 2012-10-15 12:09 AM (#460414 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2003 Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal
Unfortunately, I believe we have or will scare any Ovation product manager working for Fender away from us.
Innovation? Not much I would ask for other than the OP-Pro related pre-amps (OP-Pro, Studio, VIP, iDea). Most of you know I like abalone...especially on a Custom Legend with AAA, center hole, and 'A' braced. Other than the 2009C KOA (thank you Al for 001), what is better than the 2004 1719-30CM? Want distinctive epaulets instead of center hole, then Elite. Just don't give me side holes, etc.
Want redwood top, 2001C are available, Engleman Spruce the 2005C, etc. The factory did give options as to wood tops.
Whether a wood box or the Ovation bowl, not a lot (except electronics) that they can do...sure, change the headstock or bridge...big deal. What they can do is look for profit margin by overseas or create a quality guitar for those few that prefer a 'new' guitar. Kind of like those that buy a new Mercedes v. a two or three year old one. Yes, small number.
Comes down to a basic design, a lot produced over the years, limited production line as a number of previously sold guitars are on the used market, etc.
Want a higher profit margin and more exposure in guitar stores, then produce overseas as Fender, Ovation (then), Gibson, and Fender already did. Not high end but sound good when amplified. They are the majority that will sell with the current dissatisfaction/concern over the economy (other than used).
As to Adamas, I believe that the textured top 1687, 1688 12-string, and the pre-production (or the reissues) can not be improved on.
So, stand by for Fender's problem with debt and failure to go forward with an IPO (those in the know felt it was over-valued, estimated value far below the projected value, a candidate for take-over just for their debt load), as well as other manufacturers, that have serious profitability problems. This is not new, we have gone through periods of favior and unfavior as to quality guitars not in favor.
My suggestion for Fender is to continue with their long term Fender line, give support to the new Guild line, and not support the Ovation/Cleb/Adamas. Penny pinchin' in support of Ovation/Cleb/Adamas will just result in addititional loss. Fender wanted the distribution and logistics part of Ovation. Now that they have that, they would be better off selling Ovation/Adamas/Celeb/Hamer for a loss to someone who values the line.
Posted 2012-10-15 8:57 AM (#460418 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ
The problem (not really a problem, but interesting discussion) with theads like this is that it's only natural that we SHOP in the virtual world, but we BUY in the real world. Let me say it another way ... we SHOP with our minds and imagination, buy we BUY with our wallets.
Want a top quality Ovation USA made wood top guitar that stands shoulder to shoulder with Martin, Guild and Taylor? It's there. It's called the wood top Adamas and available with Deep or Contour bowl, cutaway or non-cutaway. Your choice. Get your wallet ready.
Oh but why should I pay $3000. when I can buy one that looks just like it from Asia for $1000. ???
Posted 2012-10-15 9:32 AM (#460420 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
I agree with the last four old farts. (I just noticed that I've been to each of their homes.) In the last 7 years that I renewed my interest in Ovation and in guitars in general, Ovation has come out with some great stuff. Yes, we recommend used, but like Stephen said, everyone who seeks advice here asks for a recommendation for their first Ovation on a budget. If anyone ever came here for the first time and asked for a recommendation for a great guitar comparable to their high end wood box, we'd have plenty of suggestions for new ones. The collectors or limited editions in the last few years have been excellent. Like Tony said, the 2009C was fantastic and I'd have one if I hadn't bought the LAV Koa. Then the 2010 ALE is an excellent guitar that everyone should have, but only 50 of us could. Just when we thought Ovation would stop producing those top of the line limited editions, they came out with the 2011s. I still need one of those, as well as the wood topped Adamas. That guitar really got the GAS going as much as anything I played in the last few years. I just hope they can keep producing guitars like that until the economy turns around.
And Bobbo, the only reason I'd tell you to get off my lawn is to invite you in for a beer.
Posted 2012-10-15 9:56 AM (#460421 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
I'm not much of a vintage guitar guy. Sure, I have a few, including my "rehearsal/back-up" Legend from 1984, but my favorites and those most frequently used for gigging are the customs made over the past six years. I wish I would be around to hear how they sound 30 or 40 years from now.
Posted 2012-10-15 10:19 AM (#460422 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
Ultimately, it's going to be a matter of how do you market the guitars? How do you get them into the hands of popular players so people can see them? You can't be interested in a high end Ovation if all you see are Celebs....
Posted 2012-10-15 10:20 AM (#460423 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 4232
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent
I started on a Celebrity; played it for over ten years; still have access to it when I visit my sister.
I own several "vintage/classic/pick your term" models. They're all great!
I own several "new/more recent/custom" models. Also great!
I love Ovation guitars.
I have trouble finding comparable instruments at ANY of their given price points. The only wood boxes I've owned in over a decade were a high end Taylor (714-ce), Martin (D-42), and Collings (Custom D-41). Only one is still in my possession, and I'm thinking hard about selling that one. (It's pricey though. )
Posted 2012-10-15 11:03 AM (#460424 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
This keeps going around in circles. Innovation is nice, but so are the old ones. In my opinion, getting the guitars OUT THERE is what is needed. Celebrity endorsements, and availability. If there are no guitars in the stores for people to try, they will buy brand X instead. If Ovations of all price points are hanging in the stores for people to try, they will sell themselves. ESPECIALLY if some popular artists are seen/heard playing them.
Posted 2012-10-15 1:54 PM (#460434 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
The other thread on Kaki King just reminded me of another prop and suggestion for Ovation. Find the next Kaki King. I first heard and saw her on the Ovation site when the percussive style was new to me. Preston Reed had been around awhile, but I had only just heard of him because he did a concert here. She looked like a teenager and wasn't much older. Even though I hadn't seen anyone do the tapping and playing from the top of the neck, I could see she had a ton of talent.
Kaki's signature model isn't for me, but it is exactly what I think Ovation needs to keep doing...get those guitars out to the up and comers. I have never seen a KK signature Adamas in a music store, however. I hope there are some out in the larger markets.
Posted 2012-10-15 2:13 PM (#460436 - in reply to #460424) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
CanterburyStrings - 2012-10-15 9:03 AM
If there are no guitars in the stores for people to try, they will buy brand X instead.
This has been mentioned a few times, and I really wonder if having instruments in stores is a valid argument for sales, or just an annoyance that some manufactures have to put up with. The reason I even think about this is based on the Pacific Northwest. Almost EVERYONE I know has a guitar in their house of one sort of another. Maybe they play it, maybe they don't, but it's hard to find a home that doesn't have one. On the other hand, there are only a few musical instrument stores in the entire state of Washington, and most they're not real convenient to get to unless you live in/near the cities where they are located. There is no way those few stores have supplied anywhere near close to the number of instruments in this state.
In fact, right now there are 2491 guitars listed in the Seattle craigslist. I'm sure that's more used guitars than new ones you could find in the entire state and that's just a snapshot of today and used guitars of ONE city.
I think this is the struggle of all manufacturers who sell something that's relatively easily shipped. Guitars are on the fringe of the easy-to-ship category but still, it's pretty easy. One one hand they somewhat need a store to showcase their items, but on the otherhand... one word... Carvin. Maybe Carvin in their infinite wisdom, or sheer dumb luck, had the marketing model of the future all figured out long ago.
They get their guitars into the hands of players who are seen and recognized enough to have influence. They sell mostly online, direct to their customers. They have only three stores, all in California, no retailers, and they sell a LOT of guitars worldwide and have been doing so for many years.
Posted 2012-10-15 3:34 PM (#460440 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2006 Posts: 6995
Location: Jet City
2 of the last 3 BRAND NEW Ovations I bought were from a brick and mortar store here locally (and the other from Al)... just saying. I'm sure I'm the exception, but the only reason I bought an O in the first place is because one was hanging in the store and I tried it and fell in love with the sound and playability. I had initially gone in to buy a Breedlove or Seagull.
Used is a different story. If I can fid a deal on something used there's no risk really involved. If it doesn't make the cut I'll sell it, typically without financial loss.
Posted 2012-10-15 6:25 PM (#460445 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
But as someone here already said, a lot of those online sales stem from someone trying a guitar in a brick and mortar store. Once they have played it and decide they like it, they often go online to find the lowest price.
And there is also a lot to be said for "the look". I can always tell by "the look" when someone is going to buy a guitar. They play it and I can tell they are in love and won't be leaving without it. Some people WILL go online, but there are still a lot of people who want that particular guitar.
I hear folks here say that Ovations are more consistant than most brands, but they are still made of wood, and each piece of wood has a different sound. My 2077LX is a good example. I had two of them here in the shop at the same time. Both were great, but mine blew the other one away. And even the Adamas guitars vary. After I ordered my 1581 from Al, a friend asked me to get him one. We have consecutive serial numbers, yet there is quite a difference in tone. (Thanks, AL, for picking out the best sounding one to send to me.)
Posted 2012-10-15 7:31 PM (#460448 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
Ok, StoneBobbo,
You gave a pretty good list;
Carved chambered mahogany body with spruce top (EA series)
Mid-depth bowl
On-board tuner on preamp (optima)
Combined piezo/microphonic pickup (hex-fx)
Advanced Neck System (LX series)
Microsphere glass bowl (advanced Lyracord)
Interchangeable preamps (OP series)
SMT and CVT Adamas tops
Contour Bowl
Set neck designs (2008C and OFC2)
New sound hole designs (2080, Collectors 2006, +
Laser cut inlaid epaulets
On board preamp "boost" button
Wood top Adamas with suspension ring
iDea preamp
However, there are a few that really don't shout innovation.
Mid-depth bowl ? They made a deep and a shallow already so no great stretch there.
A pre-amp with a built in tuner. Ummm LOTS of people have had that.
A pre-amp with a boost button ? Quicker than turning the knob a little, I guess.
The new tear drop sound hole rather than the Elite pattern ? I thought McPherson did that first ? It may not have been the same exact shape, but that's sort of where they put the sound hole.
Laser cut inlaid epaulets ? Innovation or just an improved manufacturing method ?
When did the EA series come out ? I see some as old as 1996. I will call the new ones, with the "f" holes innovative.
The LX series. Good changes. Are they still around ? Ummm no. Did they incorporate those changes into the current models ?
So, what we have left is:
Combined piezo/microphonic pickup (hex-fx) ( OvationTribute lists that as "1990s" )
Advanced Neck System (LX series)
Microsphere glass bowl (advanced Lyracord) ( Also LX Series )
Interchangeable preamps (OP series) ( Good. But did they sell it as such or did people just figure it out ? Some of the shapes changed, so that not quite "interchangable" through the whole OP series. )
SMT and CVT Adamas tops
Posted 2012-10-15 9:22 PM (#460455 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066
John,
Lets compare that list of innovations to the ones made by Martin, Taylor, etc over the last 10 years that weren't some variation of an Ovation design.
Posted 2012-10-15 9:26 PM (#460456 - in reply to #460448) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2008 Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia
JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 10:31 AM
So, what we have left is:
Combined piezo/microphonic pickup (hex-fx) ( OvationTribute lists that as "1990s" )
Advanced Neck System (LX series)
Microsphere glass bowl (advanced Lyracord) ( Also LX Series )
Interchangeable preamps (OP series) ( Good. But did they sell it as such or did people just figure it out ? Some of the shapes changed, so that not quite "interchangable" through the whole OP series. )
SMT and CVT Adamas tops
And what changes have Martin, Taylor et al. made in the same period?
Posted 2012-10-15 10:01 PM (#460463 - in reply to #460445) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4067
Location: Utah
CanterburyStrings - 2012-10-15 6:25 PM
But as someone here already said, a lot of those online sales stem from someone trying a guitar in a brick and mortar store. Once they have played it and decide they like it, they often go online to find the lowest price.
Yup.
Tuesday Sara and I are taking 4 or 5 of our guitars into a local mom/pop store so one of the employees can try them out. They have a couple of Applause on display and once in while a Celeb shows up. This employee and two of the teachers (very accomplished university trained musicians) had a terrible attitude about Ovation until they heard and played Sara's Adamas U681 and her sister's 2078T. The one employee wants to buy a nice Ovation or maybe an Adamas, so we're going to give him an overview of the product line. A product line that this store in theory carries. A product line not on display in any area guitar store including GC.
Where's the factory rep or the regional product expert? Why don't they do a road show for the retailers like they did for consumers two summers ago? If even the sales people have never seen a real O or A, is it any wonder they never sold one?
Posted 2012-10-15 10:06 PM (#460464 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 5567
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
"FWIW, I was given a significant discount... not free guitars. I know others who had different deals. Personally, I was proud to be an Ovation artist... Very proud, and equally proud to answer questions about these truly unique instruments after every show. Still am."
I am a "former" proud endorser also: I use "former" in italic's because I still endorse Ovation/Adamas every time I play out, do a concert, or even play a special on Sunday AM...I never pass up the nearly constant chance to educate and recommend the guitars that I have used for 38 years to those who still come up and look at them in wonder and appreciation. I do it because of the quality in a product that has been my friend for so many years and the innovations that made them special and darn near bullet proof for a performing artist that needed a dependable instrument. Not to mention that they had great looks, great sound, incredible ability to stay in tune, and always sparked conversation and interest wherever I played...as far as getting reimbursed for the privilege to own and play these great guitars well, just having confidence and satisfaction in how my instruments sounded and played was payment enough. Yes, I was able to buy the instruments at a discount but I would have bought them anyway so it's a mute point. After I retired from the road, my endorsement of the guitars continued. I've always used different models and still enjoy the chance to share the history of these guitars and (esp. with the Adamas) also the construction. I developed pride and respect for a company that has never let me down in all these years. I have owned many new models and own many older models as well. However, it's these aforementioned qualities that I would hope Ovation/Fender can continue to capture and draw out of both the players and the hearers with whatever models they choose to make in the future. The alternative would be a world without what is in my opinion the ultimate plug and play instrument in history; and I'll continue to "endorse" them as song as I can play.
Posted 2012-10-16 3:37 AM (#460471 - in reply to #460445) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
CanterburyStrings - 2012-10-15 4:25 PM
But as someone here already said, a lot of those online sales stem from someone trying a guitar in a brick and mortar store. Once they have played it and decide they like it, they often go online to find the lowest price.
And there is also a lot to be said for "the look". I can always tell by "the look" when someone is going to buy a guitar. They play it and I can tell they are in love and won't be leaving without it. Some people WILL go online, but there are still a lot of people who want that particular guitar.
I hear folks here say that Ovations are more consistant than most brands, but they are still made of wood, and each piece of wood has a different sound. My 2077LX is a good example. I had two of them here in the shop at the same time. Both were great, but mine blew the other one away. And even the Adamas guitars vary. After I ordered my 1581 from Al, a friend asked me to get him one. We have consecutive serial numbers, yet there is quite a difference in tone. (Thanks, AL, for picking out the best sounding one to send to me.)
While I agree with you in principle, and it's certainly logical, I'm gonna bring up Carvin again.
I agree that many people, likely most, choose a guitar based on seeing/playing one in person, but won't go as far to say that it's in a brick and mortar store. I think the Ovation Gatherings and the Road Show sell more guitars. In fact... The Dealer who has hands down sold more Adamas guitars than any brick'n mortar store or other online store, doesn't have a store. So really, I think the model is in place.
Workshops, Roadshows and Gatherings, combined with a few high visibility endorsements and product placements, and they can sell as many as they want. The proof of concept for that is done. Does that align with their ultimate goals? Who knows.
If they got an order tomorrow for 10,000 Adamas guitars, would that even be a good thing? Where is the cutoff? How many is too many? How many is not enough? '
Predicting and building a market for production is an art form unto itself when you move from a few units to high demand. Finding that fine line of high production numbers balanced with delivery dates and maintaining quality standards. It's not for the timid.
Posted 2012-10-16 6:03 AM (#460472 - in reply to #460471) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
mileskb - 2012-10-16 4:37 AM
If they got an order tomorrow for 10,000 Adamas guitars, would that even be a good thing?
I think, if the custom shop suddenly, out of the blue, got an order for 10,000 Adamas guitars, it would NOT be a good thing. (Unless a projected 5 year delivery date is acceptable)
Posted 2012-10-16 8:58 AM (#460480 - in reply to #460472) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2008 Posts: 400
Location: Northwest Arkansas
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-16 6:03 AM
mileskb - 2012-10-16 4:37 AM
If they got an order tomorrow for 10,000 Adamas guitars, would that even be a good thing?
I think, if the custom shop suddenly, out of the blue, got an order for 10,000 Adamas guitars, it would NOT be a good thing. (Unless a projected 5 year delivery date is acceptable)
It took 4 months to get my Korean Custom Legend. I bought it at a brick and mortar store. I see the customers playing the deep contour more than anything. The memory card in the preamp is a great idea. Record your backup, put it on the card. Lot cheaper than an Idea too. The customer doesn't see many print ads either. I'll post when I think of something else.
Posted 2012-10-16 10:43 AM (#460485 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
And one of the reasons the owner of a NON-brick and mortar store is the largest selling Ovation dealer in the country (besides the fact that he is a great guy) is that there are so few B&M stores carrying Ovations! This is probably not a popular thing to say (I got no comments the last time I said it), but I would LOVE to sell new Ovations at my shop but I can't afford the buy-in. If I could, I would be selling LOTS of them. I suppose lottle mom and pop stores like mine don't matter much to Fender so I doubt they would ever make Ovations more available to folks like me, but if they could get places like GC to actually CARRY USA Ovations, I think they could give the largest selling dealer a run for his money. I mean really, GC is B&M and I don't see online sales driving THEM out of business. Sure they sell online too, but they certainly sell an awful lot of guitars at their stores too.
Posted 2012-10-16 1:21 PM (#460491 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
Last I knew, GC owned Musician's Friend, so they cornered both markets. I also knew Bain Capital owned GC and going any further up that food chain would probably get political. I would love to see more Ovations in the small brick and mortar stores, but my favorite one didn't carry Ovations and closed and the one that carried Ovations didn't know the difference between an Applause and an Adamas.
There was an Ovation rep at our OFC gathering in Portland in 2006. He was the regional rep for the independents, but there was a national rep for GC. I don't know if that system is still in place.
Posted 2012-10-16 2:02 PM (#460493 - in reply to #460448) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
Don't take this as a shoutdown ... it's not just trying to put perspective on this whole discussion and hopefully provide a little food for thought.
JohnW63 - 2012-10-15 5:31 PM However, there are a few that really don't shout innovation.
I respectfully disagree. Innovation is not the same as invention.
From the business dictionary: "Innovation:
The process by which an idea or invention is translated into a good or service for which people will pay, or something that results from this process.
To be called an innovation, an idea must be replicable at an economical cost and must satisfy a specific need. Innovation involves deliberate application of information, imagination, and initiative in deriving greater or different value from resources, and encompasses all processes by which new ideas are generated and converted into useful products. In business, innovation often results from the application of a scientific or technical idea in decreasing the gap between the needs or expectations of the customers and the performance of a company's products. Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/innovation.html#ixzz29UI56PQG
So with that, let me address your comments:
Mid-depth bowl ? They made a deep and a shallow already so no great stretch there.
This was a huge advance. Definitely meets the criteria to be called innovative. The vast majority of Ovations from the mid 90's onwards were made with the mid-depth bowl; especially those made offshore. It provided a significant comfort and playability advantage for most players while retaining almost all of the tome of the deep bowl.
A pre-amp with a built in tuner. Ummm LOTS of people have had that.
Ovation was the first with a mass produced on board tuner. Just because everyone else starts doing it, you can't take away from Ovation what a huge impact this had on the market.
A pre-amp with a boost button ? Quicker than turning the knob a little, I guess.
If you're playing out on stage, this is quite the boon. All you have to do is ask ANYONE who has a guitar equipped with it if it makes a difference. Yes, this was a great innovation.
The new tear drop sound hole rather than the Elite pattern ? I thought McPherson did that first ? It may not have been the same exact shape, but that's sort of where they put the sound hole.
No question this meets the definition of innovation. The 2080 was a very good seller for Ovation, so I think they nailed it. For fun, you should take a trip through the archives and read what a lot of the traditionalists had to say about the shape. It wasn't pretty, and yet it became very popular. I had a kid come up to me last night after I got done with my set who needed to tell me he thought my guitart with the tear drop soundhole was the coolest thing he's ever seen.
Laser cut inlaid epaulets ? Innovation or just an improved manufacturing method ?
Innovation. Used technology to be able to reduce the amount of wood stacked on the top of the soundboard, resulting in must improved top vibration and by extension, tone and volume.
When did the EA series come out ? I see some as old as 1996. I will call the new ones, with the "f" holes innovative.
1994. Well within the 20 year timeframe you called out initially. And without a doubt an incredible innovation for acoustic players who have to play in a nigh volume stage situation. Glen Campbell and Paul Templeman are two players who will attest. Just an aside: if Yngwie's f-hole are innovative, why aren't the different soundhole designs on the other guitars?
The LX series. Good changes. Are they still around ? Ummm no. Did they incorporate those changes into the current models ?
Ummmm, yes. And yes, to some extent. If you want a new Ovation made in New Hartford, you will likely get the LX technology. More importantly, they learned a lot of new things as a result of the LX innivations that will find their way to other guitars.
So, what we have left is: Combined piezo/microphonic pickup (hex-fx) ( OvationTribute lists that as "1990s" )
It's within your 20 year window, AND, whether it was commercially successful or not, it was truly innovative at the time and the fact that many other pickup manufacturers now have these types of electronics proves it.
Advanced Neck System (LX series)
Microsphere glass bowl (advanced Lyracord) ( Also LX Series )
Interchangeable preamps (OP series) ( Good. But did they sell it as such or did people just figure it out ? Some of the shapes changed, so that not quite "interchangable" through the whole OP series. )
It was designed to be interchangable, but with the broad range of guitars, you can't do that all the way across the line. But if you have a higher end Ovation, you can choose from multiple options for which preamp you choose to use at any point in time. And also remember that this innovation made it possible for the average consumer to replace any preamps that might go bad ... or easily upgrade should technology advance.
SMT and CVT Adamas tops
I guess the point I want everyone to take away is that Ovation has continued to innovate. The statement earlier in this thread "The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." really bothers me and having it said here, on this forum, is particularly troubling. Totally disrespectful of the Engineering department at Ovation who have clearly innovated far more than ANY other guitar maker out there.
So bringing this back on point and on topic from the original thread ... I can't wait to see what Darrin and the team has in store for us when they ramp production back up in New Hartford. It's gonna be really exciting ... well, for those of us who buy new guitars anyway.
Posted 2012-10-16 2:55 PM (#460498 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Bobbo and John.... You guys didn't even mention the VXT. While the concept has been around, Ovation actually made it work. Take a humbucker powered solid-body and with chambers, and set neck design, modeling and pickups create acoustic tone. And while the "acoustic tone" can be argued, by use of the blend control they created a guitar that has so much tonal range that unfortunately most people don't know what to do with it at first glance. There is even innovation within the elements such as making the blend control work in a way that doesn't effect volume as you pass between the humbucker, both and acoustic pickups. Of course the chambering also has a positive effect in the full humbucker position not only in tone, but by having a dual humbucker guitar that is fairly lightweight. Yes, others have had the concepts, Ovation made it work.
Posted 2012-10-16 2:58 PM (#460499 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
I agree with Miles on the VXT, and will also add a note that the VXT benefits from the legendary workmanship of the Hamer technicians (at least mine certainly does).
Posted 2012-10-16 4:12 PM (#460501 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
The issue at hand isn't really Ovation's technical prowess or innovation. It's how to market that ability in the 21st Century so that they can not only stay in business, but also prosper in the face of fierce competitiveness and loyalty to other brands, such as Martin, Gibson and Taylor.
Posted 2012-10-16 4:24 PM (#460503 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
Dan, I think you've nailed the biggest problem. Marketing and breaking thru the perception of Ovations as "those plastic guitars" is tough.
You're in Trabuco Canyon? We've got 2 more Friday nights at the Trabuco Oaks General Store before we shut down for winter. Come on out this Friday, 7-9. Email me, moody.pi@cox.net if you're interested.
Posted 2012-10-16 4:35 PM (#460504 - in reply to #460503) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
immoody - 2012-10-16 2:24 PM
Dan, I think you've nailed the biggest problem. Marketing and breaking thru the perception of Ovations as "those plastic guitars" is tough.
You're in Trabuco Canyon? We've got 2 more Friday nights at the Trabuco Oaks General Store before we shut down for winter. Come on out this Friday, 7-9. Email me, moody.pi@cox.net if you're interested.
One competitive advantage 'those plastic guitars' have over the Martins, Gibsons and Taylors is in the area of preserving the 'valuable' forests of exotic hardwoods used to produce the sides and backs of the wooden guitars.
Ovation was also an innovator in producing non-wood necks and using composites for the faces of guitars.
They could adopt a marketing campaign that shifts the marketing focus of this technical innovation to being a 'green' company that was ahead of their time.
Yes, I'm located in Trabuco Canyon (Portolla Hills, really), right above Cook's Corner. I will email you. It sounds like fun.
Posted 2012-10-16 6:05 PM (#460506 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
The point that should be noted is that Martin and Taylor are still doing OK and are still actively making guitars in this country. Ovation is not. Those two builders have done something right that Ovation seems to lack. Therefore, it's up to Ovation to get themselves noticed, again. Change things up. Try to appeal to more players, some how.
In my mind,that means offering more than the other guys. You mentioned the pickup + mic system. That is a very popular 3rd party choice these days. Is Ovation offering that in anything currently ? Is it an option on any of their production guitars ? If not, why not ? The same goes for tops. I think they SHOULD give people choices of tone wood beyond Spruce and NOT have to wait for some limited edition guitar that's only made for 1 year, never to be seen again. Where I think Ovation has an advantage is they can make a striking , eye catching guitar with a lot LESS fancy wood than the others. It's only the top. No need for expensive rosewood or Koa or maple back and sides. From my perspective, that "Sweet T" that was listed on eBay, and posted about here, was one of those. A mix of new and old. I would be willing to pay more that THAT than the one just like it that was all matt black. So, why is it that the eye candy guitars are Celebrity and what ever CUSTOM guitar Patch has ordered this year ? ( That maple one is real eye candy ) Ovation can be fancy and bold for a lot LESS than the competition.
Posted 2012-10-16 6:35 PM (#460507 - in reply to #460506) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 7:05 PM
The point that should be noted is that Martin and Taylor are still doing OK . Those two builders have done something right that Ovation seems to lack.
The only thing those 2 builders have done "right" is either have history behind them (Martin), or thrown a guitar in the hands of every celebrity they can (Taylor).
Neither have anything special in electronics. In fact, many people HATE Taylor's expression system, and Martin has a decent modeling preamp...but no big deal....certainly no better than Ovation.
Exotic woods? VERY expensive and nothing no one else doesn't also have (for less).
Taylor's electric guitars are big snoozers and aren't selling.
In fact, I don't KNOW this, but I doubt either company is "doing okay" in this economic environment we have right now. Taylor is owed a fortune by Guitar Center, and Martin has the same problem Ovation has....a lot of used guitars out there for less money than new. 75% of the Martin's sold new in MY Guitar Center here are are cheap Mexican models, and the same for Taylor. I wouldn't be surprised to hear some disappointing financial news from either, or both, companies.
Posted 2012-10-16 6:50 PM (#460508 - in reply to #460506) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 4:05 PM
The point that should be noted is that Martin and Taylor are still doing OK and are still actively making guitars in this country. Ovation is not. Those two builders have done something right that Ovation seems to lack. Therefore, it's up to Ovation to get themselves noticed, again. Change things up. Try to appeal to more players, some how...
IMO, the business (read: marketing) model used by Martin and Taylor wouldn't work for a company like Ovation. When Ovation guitars came on the scene, they had the same perception problem as they do now: plastic guitars don't sound or look as good as wood guitars.
When I got my first Ovation, the first thing my wife, who is not a guitar player, said when she saw it was that she liked the wood sides and backs on guitars and didn't like the plastic back on my Ovation. She hadn't even heard me play it and she was already prejudiced against it. She didn't realize that she'd been listening to Ovations almost her entire adult life when she listened to various pop music she enjoyed.
Unless the sale and manufacture of exotic hardwoods becomes illegal and Martin, Gibson and Taylor can no longer manufacture wood guitars, Ovation guitars will always be a niche guitar aimed at a smaller market segment of guitar players who prefer the Ovation sound over that of fully wooden guitars.
There are two main approaches to marketing a product. The first is technological innovation. The second is to market the personality behind the product. Actually, there is a third, and that's celebrity endorsements.
Ovation used a combination of these to market their guitars when they first came out. They sold their guitars on the basis of Charles Kaman's aeronautical background and his use of it to develop a technologically superior guitar. Apple Computers uses a combination, too. Steve Jobs being the brains behind the wizardry and quality of Apple products.
No Apple product is made in America because the cost would be prohibitive. Instead, Apple has overcome the perception of cheap Chinese manufacturing because their marketing department has made it clear that no matter where their products are made, Apple products will always maintain the high standard Steve Jobs established.
Unfortunately, Ovation has let the perception take hold that their overseas models are of an inferior quality than their domestically produced models. My personal experience is that their Chinese Celebrities are still superior to a Chinese Yamaha in the same price range and my Korean 2078TX is still a very nice guitar for the money when compared to the other guitars I've seen and played in GC.
Sponsors in NASCAR rely on the third model because they know that fan support of their favorite driver translates into sales dollars. That's why the driving suits and cars are plastered with sponsor stickers. The big three automakers relied for years on the motto, 'Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday' and they still do. That's why Toyota lobbied for years to get into NASCAR and why many open-wheel drivers are constantly trying to break into NASCAR as a driver --exposure translates into making more money.
Since the personality and technological innovation are not selling enough guitars, then only avenues left are to either change the perception of what is being sold or obtain enough celebrity endorsements from modern musicians so that Ovation can get their product back in front of the eyeballs of the music-listening public.
IMO, these days it doesn't matter to the buying public whether a celebrity buys the product they're using. They merely have to be using it and be willing to praise it. On this basis, Ovation would do well to follow Taylor's lead and start giving a guitar or two to every popular musician who has a large enough market segment. (read: CD, or iTunes sales)
I already mentioned the other way to change the perception of Ovations by emphasizing the green aspect that the non-wood construction is preserving the exotic wood forests being cut down to produce all-wood Martins, Gibsons and Taylors.
Posted 2012-10-16 8:06 PM (#460512 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
"Totally disrespectful of the Engineering department at Ovation who have clearly innovated far more than ANY other guitar maker out there."
Not true. How can you disrespect people you don't know of ? I don't know the FORD engineers either, but until they came out with a NEW engine that is making some headlines called the EcoBoost, I was thinking they hadn't done much either. All the engines listed in the Euro web sites beat the snot out of our versions. I haven't read any buzz about new Ovation tech advances. If they don't make "headlines" and reviews don't build up, how would the casual observer/player ever know ? If an innovation happens in a forest and no one TELLS you about it...... ?
Posted 2012-10-16 10:03 PM (#460513 - in reply to #460512) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 6:06 PM
I haven't read any buzz about new Ovation tech advances. If they don't make "headlines" and reviews don't build up, how would the casual observer/player ever know ? If an innovation happens in a forest and no one TELLS you about it...... ?
Get the idea.
What do you want? (I'm confused)
What other guitar company has come-out with any "Headline" grabbing innovations?
There are Variax (and other) modeling guitars and such, but they are not headline grabbing.
There are other Composite guitars besides Adamas... But they aren't in GC either.
(I think that some of them have gone outta business)
What kind of innovations have you gotten from anyone else?
Martin started making High-Pressure-Laminate (cardboard) guitars in Mexico.
That's new...
Posted 2012-10-16 11:11 PM (#460516 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
What do I want ?
It's simple. Something that makes me go " Wow. That's cool ! " , or " Wow, that really raises the bar. " or even, " This will make people change their minds about Ovation guitars. " Because, that is what I think needs to happen. Let's be honest. The casual observer/player will not really care if their guitar has laser cut inserts, or an LX technology neck or pretty much any of the extensive list. All most people want are three things. Does it sound good, play good, and look good. I think you could also add, these days, " and sound good plugged in too. ". So innovative changes that don't directly effect those things don't have much wow factor.
When I first saw the Adamas line come out, those three wow statements fit to a tee. I had to call my friend and ask if they had seen the NEW Ovation line. I've wanted to try one ever since. That was over 30 years ago. Still waiting. That was some serious wow factor.
I know you and others keep pointing to the statement " Well no one ELSE has made any big innovations. " but I don't think any one else really NEEDS to. They already sell a lot more instruments than Ovation. You can find them hanging on many music shop walls. They don't have people thinking their guitars are "plastic" or that they have a "thin sound" or that they USED to be good. Ovation needs the wow to make up the negative terms that people use about them. They need to change minds.
Posted 2012-10-16 11:51 PM (#460518 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
By the way, the dual pickup+mic was the "Optimax" , not the hex-fx. I think that's how the list spelled it out. I would really like to hear one of those. I doubt you could fit one of those in just any Ovation, based on where the mic was located.
Edit: I see it was only out on ONE guitar , a collectors model, and dropped. That's a shame because now various 3rd party people are making them. Tommy E makes good use of his, in his Maton. I don't think having it right under the bridge was the best spot. Modern ones put them near the sound hole.
Posted 2012-10-17 12:52 AM (#460519 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
This IS a very good thread. Not sure if it helps anyone, but it is interesting. One recurring theme seems to be marketing. It's been a theme for the life of this site. That's interesting enough unto itself.
The marketing of an Ovation guitar must walk a thin line. I wonder if placement is more important than endorsement. Josh Homme wasn't and endorsement, just a guitarist looking for a sound. But as a gas station owner once told me... "Ovation finally gets a guitar on the front of Guitar magazine, and it's one that hasn't been made in 20 years"
Not a fan of Apple but they have the mojo for marketing. Siri is a great example. You'd think when the last iPhone came out, Siri was some new technology.... it wasn't even new to iPhones. They never said it was new, but somehow the perception that it was prevailed. I wonder if Ovation could get away with the "green" factor as someone mentioned and have it come across as new. No fibbing, just make it seem like "green" is the reason to buy it. Just like Siri, it wasn't anything new, and in fact wasn't even the best, but it was marketed as "you need it." It's not deceitful, I just don't think Ovation has tooted their own horn for along time.
Back in the day, the product placement was there. You may not have been a Campbell fan, or even a musician, but if you watched TV you knew what an Ovation was and what it sounded like. I believe there is much much more use of guitars in music today just based on the sheer mass of music that's out there, but.... it's no longer really the focus instrument in videos and performance. It's also pretty hard to spot a headstock on a 3" wide youtube video.
Which.... brings me to good news. Apparently Fender got the memo. I refer you to the Foo Fighter Guitarist Telecaster video on YouTube. In the last two years the Foo Fighters have been everywhere it seems all at once. The guitar player is rarely featured in any way that you can see what he's playing. You certainly hear it. Fender took the lead with the YouTube video/interview to show us what he's playing. There are now over 30,000 Foo Fighter fans, musicians or not, that now know what a fender telecaster is and how it's used, that might not have before. And the video has only been up for a couple of weeks.
Yep... I think Ovation is in good hands... There I said it.
Posted 2012-10-17 1:14 AM (#460521 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
It's a quixotic quest to try and get everyone to love Ovations. But go ahead and do what you can.
I wish you could have been around when the LX was introduced and there was massive media coverage, a lot of hoopla, and a major rollout across the entire dealer channel. Spend some times in the archive to get a sense of how energized the Ovation community was. You want WOW factor - it was there in spades.
With regards the list of innovations I posted, which of those were not brought out in support of making a better playing, better sounding instrument?
Last point ... where do you get your information that Taylor and Martin sell more guitars than Ovation? Just because there are lots hanging on the wall at a store doesn't mean they sell; in fact it only proves that it hasn't sold. I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you I play out fairly often. And while it's true that I see Taylors or Martins from time to time, but there is ALWAYS an Ovation or two there.
Oh, you want WOW factor? Come out and watch what happens when I take out one of my Ovations and play in front of a crowd ... whether it's my OFC1, OFC2, RFT, 07BCS, 1651JL3 or CL12. These guitars contain pretty much most of the list I posted earlier, along with many of the traditional Ovation features.
Posted 2012-10-17 1:31 AM (#460522 - in reply to #460512) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
JohnW63 - 2012-10-16 6:06 PM "Totally disrespectful of the Engineering department at Ovation who have clearly innovated far more than ANY other guitar maker out there." Not true. How can you disrespect people you don't know of ? I don't know the FORD engineers either, but until they came out with a NEW engine that is making some headlines called the EcoBoost, I was thinking they hadn't done much either. All the engines listed in the Euro web sites beat the snot out of our versions. I haven't read any buzz about new Ovation tech advances. If they don't make "headlines" and reviews don't build up, how would the casual observer/player ever know ? If an innovation happens in a forest and no one TELLS you about it...... ? Get the idea.
Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous. You disrespected the Ovation Engineering department by publicly stating, on this Ovation Fan Club, that they haven't done anything in the last 20 years. Without any regard for the facts. You're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts or lack thereof.
Martin made 66,746 guitars in 2010
Taylor makes upwards of 70,000 per year
Try as I might, I could not find numbers for Ovation. However, if they were making a lot of them and selling them, they would be a bright spot for Fender and not be listed as part of the criticism for the company. I would also suspect they would still be building lots of instruments in this country, like Martin or Taylor. So, if you have a source that shows they make and sell more instruments than those, I would like to see it.
Posted 2012-10-17 2:39 AM (#460524 - in reply to #460523) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 12:06 AM
Try as I might, I could not find numbers for Ovation.
If you are talking about USA made Ovations, all you have to do is look at the serial numbers.
In 1972 they made 7,000 guitars by the serial numbers.
In 2006 they made about 8,000 (601451-609566)
In 2007 they made about 9,000 (609567-618494)
In 2008 they made about 1,800 (618495-620263) that is when they moved manufacture to Korea.
My Sweet-T was made in 2008 and I had to wait for delivery. It has a 619xxx serial number.
That means that the New Hartford Factory made a little over 620,000 guitars in 36 years.
If Taylor makes 70,000 guitar a year... Then they make about 200 guitars per day.
How much individual hand crafting are we talking about here.
By that same arithmetic, Ovation made 20 guitars a day.
BTW-- I don't want a Taylor...
Not because it is a bad guitar, I am sure that they are fine guitars.
I don't want a Taylor just cuz it's a stinkin' Taylor.
Posted 2012-10-17 6:51 AM (#460529 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
Of Taylor's 70,000 guitars, I wonder how many are the cheapies, made in Mexico? (They ARE packed full of exciting innovations however, such as necks and frets and sound holes and sometimes tone...)
Posted 2012-10-17 9:53 AM (#460536 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2009 Posts: 381
Location: Miami
Can't stay quiet any more.
Ovations' and Adamases' round backs and side soundholes and epi's give them more WOW to the average eye than ANY standard guitar out there, PERIOD. I GUARANTEE no other guitar at the gig gets THIS many comments, by virtue of what sets them VISIBLY apart. Mr. O hit it right on the head with the Apple marketing analogy. What is needed is to (1) hit VH1, MTV, and Palladia with guitar commercials (you don't see ANY guitar commercials!). It would give them the visibility Apple has over Microsoft (granted, the Surface commercial is not bad). (2) Push the green angle and the unique design like it's the next best thing even if it was 30 years ago. (3) Be artistic in the ads, playing up the curve of the roundback and the sideholes like VW did for the bug, showing it parked in front of a dome, then driving away to reveal the dome with the same shape. THAT kind of marketing. ie, don't target GUITAR PLAYERS. Target PEOPLE. Have another commercial showing a helicopter blade flying off a helicopter, flying through guitar stores slicing through other guitars, and morphing into the back of an Ovation. Come on, people, THINK!!!
Posted 2012-10-17 10:50 AM (#460538 - in reply to #460536) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2008 Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D.
joetunon - 2012-10-18 8:53 AM
Can't stay quiet any more.
Ovations' and Adamases' round backs and side soundholes and epi's give them more WOW to the average eye than ANY standard guitar out there, PERIOD. I GUARANTEE no other guitar at the gig gets THIS many comments, by virtue of what sets them VISIBLY apart. Mr. O hit it right on the head with the Apple marketing analogy. What is needed is to (1) hit VH1, MTV, and Palladia with guitar commercials (you don't see ANY guitar commercials!). It would give them the visibility Apple has over Microsoft (granted, the Surface commercial is not bad). (2) Push the green angle and the unique design like it's the next best thing even if it was 30 years ago. (3) Be artistic in the ads, playing up the curve of the roundback and the sideholes like VW did for the bug, showing it parked in front of a dome, then driving away to reveal the dome with the same shape. THAT kind of marketing. ie, don't target GUITAR PLAYERS. Target PEOPLE. Have another commercial showing a helicopter blade flying off a helicopter, flying through guitar stores slicing through other guitars, and morphing into the back of an Ovation. Come on, people, THINK!!!
YES! YES! YES!!!! Joe, if Fender reads this you might just get a call offering you a position in marketing!
Posted 2012-10-17 3:09 PM (#460546 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
Here's my idea of the Ovation guitar for the 21st Century:
It would be an all-composite guitar with no exotic wood used at all.
1) A contour bowl. 2) An Adamas top and mounting system that looks like the Adamas 2080-BB OFC-II Custom for stunning looks and sound. 3) An aluminum or carbon fiber neck a la the Matrix, but with stainless steel frets that could be replaced or dressed. 4) OP-Pro electronics. 5) Carbon Fiber or Lyracord bridge. 6) Black Tusq II nut and bridge saddle a la the 2078T/TX. 7) Black chrome tuners a la 1778T/TX & 2078T/TX or matt chrome a la the 1988 Collectors..
And, above all, if it has a cut-away bowl, then the strap pin absolutely has to be mounted on the treble bout instead of the bass bout so the guitar stays put.
Posted 2012-10-17 4:35 PM (#460549 - in reply to #460512) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2010 Posts: 486
Location: Suisun City, Ca
I guess I'm an old fuddy-duddy, but...
If all I read is Euro web sites, I probably also wouldn't know about a little thing called the 302 and virtually all euro engines would beat the snot of of everything American. I challenge ANY Euro car anywhere near the price range of my "Betsy" to outperform her...
If all I see is artists on MTV, music award shows etc playing Martins and Taylors; QED
Ovation needs to get the product into the hands that will (noticeably) showcase it. The American made guitars speak for themselves once people actually see and play them. Never see them in GC or anywhere else, myself...
Posted 2012-10-17 5:14 PM (#460552 - in reply to #460548) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
immoody - 2012-10-17 5:21 PM
I'm curious. How can you tell Martin and Taylor guitars that were built in Mexico or overseas? Any idea what the price break is?
It's based on model numbers.
Martin makes under 70,000 guitars a year, over half are made in Mexico. Similar #'s HAVE to be the same for Taylor. All Taylor 100 and 200 series, and "Baby" series are made in Mexico.
Posted 2012-10-17 5:39 PM (#460553 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
well....
been sick a few days and I come back to this mess???????
when I speak of new hartford I am not talking about imports. IMHO some companies have made a great transition from USA production to "off shore" IMHO Ovation is not one of them. it is spotty at best. IMHO the New Hartford built instruments are superior.
bowl paint being a happy accident? ehhhhhh what is on top of an Adamas? OK I'll tell you bowl paint.
the reason is because it is much thinner than the other paint and therefore allows the top to resonate more.
I see tons of pretty guitars out there with pretty tops made by probably the same factory in Korea and china. most sound like cardboard. most play like bricks. most have preamps that are prone to feedback and sound tinny.
So where does that take us?
I have personally overseen the build of what I think are some of the most incredible guitars to come out of the factory. Why? well I ordered them.
If you build it they will come.
Miles often talks about Carvin as being a model for a company that has worldwide distribution yet is not in the stores. It is very true. So the fact that guitars are not in the brick in mortar stores may be a problem for those that want to finger them on a saturday and go home and complain that it is too much to spend but those that want the guitars actually will seek them out and purchase them.
Reputation and word of mouth are sometimes your best sales force.
Posted 2012-10-17 5:47 PM (#460554 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
oh let me tell you this.
last week I showed up at my thurs haunt for open mic. My head felt like it was going to explode I did not want to sign up but a friend signed me up to play.
as people filed in some did not have their guitar with them and since they are friends they asked me to borrow mine.
I rarely get a chance to hear how my guitar sounds at a venue SINCE I AM THE ONE PLAYING IT but this night was different.
5 people borrowed my 2008 (modified) Adamas collector's
everyone complemented it
how well it plays
how well it sounds
how easy it is to play
how great the action is.
my guitar is a war horse I have been using it since 2008 and it has seen tons of gigs.
I was stunned at how good the guitar sounded.
it was crisp
it had bottom
it was articulate
it sounded like an acoustic
it sounded DIFFERENT than all the other guitars that night
it was up against a
taylor T 5
santa cruz
Ibanez
Martin
yet everyone raved how much they loved the sound of MY guitar.
none of these players own an ovation or Adamas
yet
they changed their mind about the instruments that night.
however
if they went to the local GC or ash and played a celebrity or korean import
I am positive they would be disappointed
The current state of the mid level guitars is not good IMHO
Posted 2012-10-17 5:57 PM (#460555 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
Welcome, back Al. Start a thread that gets everyone stirred up and then take off a few days. This thread was actually pretty good. Lots of opinions, many strays off topic, just like the old days, but thought provoking. I hope the new guy gets some worthwhile ideas, not the least of which is that he has a pretty rabid fanbase.
Posted 2012-10-17 6:01 PM (#460556 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
When I plug in at church, I can't tell what I sound like. All I can hear is the moniter and it sucks. But ocassionaly I'll ask the other player to play my guitars so I can get a handle on my sound through the mains. It always sounds great, 1537 or Adamas. They are different but they sound great......
Posted 2012-10-17 6:03 PM (#460557 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
AstroDan,
A 302, ( Let's call it a 5 liter for modern terms ) came out of Detroit in about 1967. Probably about 225hp and similar torque numbers. Over time, new bits were dropped on it and the HP went up. Of course it still WEIGHS quite a lot. All cast iron. Today, you can get a twin turbo 2.0 liter that has those same numbers. 200hp. On a VW. Since it's in a sporty car with paddle shifters and low profile wheels, the VW GTI sells for about $24,000. I belive that engine can be had in some of VWs less costly cars as well. It also gets 30mph on the highway, going 80mph to Las Vegas for almost 3 hours. Ford used that same basic block for a good 30 years with just bolt on changes. It certainly has longevity, but it was VERY long in the tooth and outperformed by much more modern and efficient engines. Ford was LONG overdue for a change. Enter the EcoBoost. Now they have a 2 liter engine that gets the same performance as your 302. Welcome to the 21st century, Ford.
Posted 2012-10-17 6:18 PM (#460558 - in reply to #460557) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan
I'm a Detroit boy. I get what you wrote. But it's kinda of a sketchy analogy. I take it you feel the guitar needs to be completely re-invented. . cars / guitars apples / oranges .
Posted 2012-10-17 6:23 PM (#460559 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous.
No, you don't get it. I never said it didn't happen. I said you can't DISRESPECT what you have no knowledge of. If I say that my local donut shop makes the best cinnamon rolls in California, but there is some shop 100 miles away that makes great ones, I am NOT disrespecting the other donut maker. If some scientist is a lab in Stockholm made some innovative solar panel , but only the insiders knew about it, I guess I can't say ANYTHING about Swedish scientists EVER for fear of disrespecting them ? Hogwash.
Let's put it this way. If I walked into any big music store in the country and asked 100 customers. " What has Ovation done lately ? " and they say, " I don't know ? Do they still have those round back made out of plastic or fiberglass and some of their guitars have lots of little holes instead of one big one ? " and I reply, with a " Yes". Would they be "disrespecting" the engineers at Ovation by replying " I guess they haven' done anything new lately. " ? Of course not ! What it would REALLY show is that very few people KNOW what Ovation DOES. Is that THEIR fault or somebody at Ovation ?
If only fully researched FACTS can be talked about, and opinions without that background check are allowed in the forum, I guess I missed it posted on the front door.
Posted 2012-10-17 6:27 PM (#460560 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
SlipKid,
No, it doesn't need to be completely reinvented, but with as much GLOBAL competition, those that still CAN make a name for themselves will stand out. The Ovation brand doesn't conjure up enough positive responses anymore. At some point in the past, there was a disconnect. Most likely, when they had to sell the bulk of their guitars at very low margins, the marketing budget was cut. But without marketing, how do you keep your brand in people's minds in a good way ?
Posted 2012-10-17 6:59 PM (#460561 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
alpep - 2012-10-09 9:18 AM
a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
Let's go back to the beginning. What's important?
1. Really good acoustic sound -- I play acoustic guitar (and sometimes plugged in acoustic guitar). I want something that sounds great -- not Martin, Gibson, or Taylor great, just great. Rich full sound
2. Durable -- I don't want a guitar that's delicate. I've seen too many Taylors that go out of tune at the drop of a hate. I want a guitar that I can take with me where ever I go. If I've got a problem with it, it can be repaired (neck reset, frets, whatever).
3. Great playability -- I want a guitar that plays like butter. It frets and notes well up and down the neck. It should be well set up from the factory with only minor tweaks needed down the road. I've barely touched my 1537 or Adams I 12 string regarding how they are set up.
4. Good price --- not cheap, just good. The best Taylor I ever played was a great $1500-$2000 guitar. Problem with it was it cost $3200. I see new 1681 WT's on ebay for $3600. That may be too much (there may not be a choice with costs). It's a modern version of my 1537 which I consider a $2grand guitar. I may be hopelessly out of date here. But for a great, inspiring guitar, I'm willing to pay more. My OFC slothead certain cost more, and I didn't complain about the cost (thanks Al -- what a great guitar).
5. Really good acoustic sound. Above all else, I want a guitar that makes me want to pick it up just to strum it for the sound.
Kinda sounds like Charlie's original thoughts for Ovation. But these are the things that are important to me.....
Posted 2012-10-17 7:45 PM (#460563 - in reply to #460559) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 4:23 PM
Yes, I do get it. You didn't know about it so it obviously didn't happen. That's ridiculous.
No, you don't get it. I never said it didn't happen.
Your own words : "The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years."
If you said the donut shop doesn't know how to make cinnamon rolls, that is disrespecting them. If you said Swedish solar panel manufacturers haven't done anything new in 20 years, that is disrespecting them. Saying Ovation really hasn't done anything new in 20 years is disrespecting them. Had you said "I'm not familiar with the advances Ovation has made in the last 20 years, have they done anything?" then we wouldn't have this disconnect. And then when I provided you a list and tried to gently educate you, you responded that the things I cited were not new nor innovative, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
My opinion is that Ovation continued to innovate. They continued to market in a number of ways. They brought out new guitars that have surpassed nearly everything they had ever done before. Your opinion is that they did not. Please give me YOUR facts to support that please and I'll attempt to shed some insight as to why I feel differently. We CAN have an intellectually honest discussion, even if we disagree.
But I am so tired of all the negative attack speech that cannot be supported by the truth, that I'm a little cranky these days. Please don't take it personally.
Posted 2012-10-17 8:41 PM (#460564 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 4232
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent
This thread is starting to remind me of youth soccer games; where the parents keep yelling themselves horse at the children trying to take the ball from each other that they're on the same team.
Posted 2012-10-17 9:48 PM (#460566 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
StoneBobbo,
We will never see eye to eye. If you would pause for a moment and stop with all the over the top "disrespecting" issues, perhaps you would see that I am not an insider or a big time "fanboy". I do not hang on every change that Ovation has tried or feel that they are the best at all aspects of guitar building. But, what I am, and this should be of some value, is the " every man " guitar player. How I see Ovation is a lot like the rest of the WORLD sees Ovation. Except it's a bit better because I like them and now own two of their instruments. A marketing guy would learn nothing from your point of view. You're the yes man; It's ALL good ! On the other hand if they want to get what the majority of consumers are thinking, my point of view would be much more representative of that. The start of the thread made me think Fender wanted to know players ideas about what they could CHANGE or ADD to their line of products. So, I started throwing out ideas and points of view. Apparently, what Al wanted was a short list of options for the eye candy, custom build only, high dollar, instruments for the select few, who consequently, don't NEED to be convinced to try out an Ovation guitar. Had I known that, I never would have cared at all about the thread.
p.s. Please give my e-mail to any and ALL the Ovation designers whose ears are burning and feel disrespected by my uninformed comments. I have a feeling I would have a much less contentious conversation with them. I find what they do very interesting. At one point in my college career, I wanted to get in the audio research and design.
Posted 2012-10-18 9:24 AM (#460583 - in reply to #460394) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: February 2005 Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret
JohnW63 - 2012-10-14 1:18 PMThe problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years..
Wrong.
stonebobbo - 2012-10-14 2:25 PMThis the clearly the most ignorant statement I've read here in many years, perhaps ever.
Correct.
John, you're arguing about innovation, yet in almost every post you point out the real problem without acknowledging it.
The only place Ovation has failed to be innovative is in their MARKETING.
Posted 2012-10-18 9:39 AM (#460585 - in reply to #460557) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2010 Posts: 486
Location: Suisun City, Ca
JohnW63 - 2012-10-17 6:03 PM AstroDan, A 302, ( Let's call it a 5 liter for modern terms ) came out of Detroit in about 1967. Probably about 225hp and similar torque numbers. Over time, new bits were dropped on it and the HP went up. Of course it still WEIGHS quite a lot. All cast iron. Today, you can get a twin turbo 2.0 liter that has those same numbers. 200hp. On a VW. Since it's in a sporty car with paddle shifters and low profile wheels, the VW GTI sells for about $24,000. I belive that engine can be had in some of VWs less costly cars as well. It also gets 30mph on the highway, going 80mph to Las Vegas for almost 3 hours. Ford used that same basic block for a good 30 years with just bolt on changes. It certainly has longevity, but it was VERY long in the tooth and outperformed by much more modern and efficient engines. Ford was LONG overdue for a change. Enter the EcoBoost. Now they have a 2 liter engine that gets the same performance as your 302. Welcome to the 21st century, Ford.
Posted 2012-10-18 9:43 AM (#460586 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
alpep - 2012-10-09 10:18 AM
It is my understanding that Fender has named a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
I will let you know any details when I can.
It is really frustrating when people, politician or otherwise, don't answer the question posed to them. After griping about the debate last night, I thought this morning that I would go back and look at what Al originally asked and then check to see if we answered it in the next 6 pages. I'm not sure the new product manager would get a good sense of what was "important to Ovation guitar players", except that we must have debate fever--we won't answer the damn question, but will bitch at each other until no one can remember what the question was.
What's important to me as an Ovation player is that Ovation maintains a large variety of good quality guitars. I could care less about innovation unless it leads to my second point.
Second, I would like to see those guitars on stage and on TV, not so much so that I will buy more, but so that the company continues to prosper so that I have the opportunity to buy more.
Posted 2012-10-18 9:47 AM (#460587 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
JohnW-
You stated "The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." Bobbo has pointed out many examples but you won't accept them as innovative. Not much can be done about changing YOUR perceptions if you refuse to acknowledge them. You point to this as the big reason Ovation is "struggling."
You were asked several times in these 7 pages of posts to point out an acoustic guitar company who, in the last 20 years, has introduced huge innovations that have resulted in great sales. You have successfully dodged the question so far. The reason is YOU CAN'T. The fact is that Ovation has been FAR more innovative than any other acoustic guitar maker that you could name.
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
Posted 2012-10-18 10:00 AM (#460588 - in reply to #460553) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
alpep - 2012-10-17 3:39 PM
when I speak of new hartford I am not talking about imports. IMHO some companies have made a great transition from USA production to "off shore" IMHO Ovation is not one of them. it is spotty at best. IMHO the New Hartford built instruments are superior.
...
I see tons of pretty guitars out there with pretty tops made by probably the same factory in Korea and china. most sound like cardboard. most play like bricks. most have preamps that are prone to feedback and sound tinny.
...
Reputation and word of mouth are sometimes your best sales force.
...
if they went to the local GC or ash and played a celebrity or korean import
I am positive they would be disappointed
The current state of the mid level guitars is not good IMHO
Unfortunately, what you write is probably why Ovation guitars don't get the respect they deserve. Since the imports in a GC or Sam Ash is what most people will encounter and the QC for these mid-level models is spotty, then Ovation's reputation suffers. Word of mouth can also be a company's worst enemy.
What you say reminds me of the state of Apple computers in the late 80s and early 90s. John Sculley had led the BoD in the ouster of Steve Jobs and the company was well on the road to the mediocrity Jobs hated. Their fan base continued to rally behind the product, but in side-by-side tests with PCs, the performance of the Apple computers were slower, yet cost more. It wasn't until Jobs returned to the company that they surged to their former position as the market leader. But, had they continued to offer mediocre products, they would have continued to flounder. But, it was Jobs complete devotion to technical superiority and quality that revived the reputation of the company.
Corporate bean-counters don't care about the company's reputation or the quality of the product. IMO, it was a mistake Ovation's part to start down the path of low-cost guitars if they were not going to make sure the quality matched those made in the USA.
This is also reminiscent of the story of the man who said no to Wal-Mart. If you're unfamiliar with it, here's a link to the story. It's a long read, but very educational and worth the time. (The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart) It's a story about one CEO's choice between their company's product quality and long-term reputation vs. increased sales in the low-cost market segment.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:09 AM (#460589 - in reply to #460587) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 7:47 AM
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
IMO, alpep nailed it when he wrote that Ovation's reputation suffered because the word of mouth advertising is based upon the low-cost, poor quality guitars most people encounter when they visit a GC or Sam Ash.
No amount of good marketing can overcome that kind of bad reputation.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:13 AM (#460590 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan
My 2 cents to Ovation:
Build a guitar like Paul Moody said:
1. Really good acoustic sound, doesn't have to a "10", I'd settle for a "7".
2. Durable - build on Ovation's experience with carbon graphite, this represents an area where Ovation could lead the pack and be an inovator.
3. Great playability, again doesn't have to a "10", I'd settle for a "7".
4. Good price --- not cheap, just good. To me this means $1000 or less.
One area that I think is ripe for improvement is electronics. As nice as the OP-Pro is, heavy handed players like myself still get a ton of piezo quack from the standard Ovation electronics. Takamine has made major advances with acoustic guitar electronics, this shouldn't be so hard for Ovation to do.
I would ad that bling means little to me personally, I prefer stark looking guitars and would rather see the money spent on playability and the other issues listed above. I do however recognize that bling sells, or so it would seem. The whole Elite T product line seems like a good way to produce a very passable instrument at a reasonably low cost. Now do it with carbon fiber and better electronics.
BTW I plan to purchase a DS778 DX (Elite T Longneck) soon, it represents a lot of what I want at a reasonable price. I just wish I could get a carbon top and better electronics.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:26 AM (#460591 - in reply to #460588) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: February 2005 Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret
DanSavage - 2012-10-18 8:00 AMThis is also reminiscent of the story of the man who said no to Wal-Mart. If you're unfamiliar with it, here's a link to the story. It's a long read, but very educational and worth the time. (The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart) It's a story about one CEO's choice between their company's product quality and long-term reputation vs. increased sales in the low-cost market segment.
Great read. I wish Ovation had followed that path.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:48 AM (#460593 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2003 Posts: 430
Location: Lebanon, TN
I'm probably a bad target for the new marketing team for reasons that will become obvious but here's my 2 cent's (tuppence).
I fell in love with Ovations in the late 1970's To me that generation of round hole's (Legend and up) is where my emotional heart is built on. My first one owned was a 1617 Legend. I loved that it was different to the Yamaha's and Martins that were around but more so that it sounded so good to me at that time acoustically and pleased the sound guy at the folk clubs because he could plug it in rather than have to find another mic. Sadly that 1617 was traded in for a Gibson Sonex and a Precision Bass for my brother years ago and then marriage and kids killed the budget stone dead.
I continued to lust after Ovations and in particular the Adamas. In 2000 I bought a W597 new on a trip to the US. Loved the mid bowl, adore the Optima (still the best built in chromatic tuner implementation I have ever seen) and the Cobalt Blue just blew me a way (no pun intended). Since 2000 I have had approximately 30+ ovation/adamii through my hands, stabilising at around 14 in stock now. I think I know what I like and sadly for Fender it's the early 80's and late 90's models from second hand sources including friends here.
I love the vintage of KBar and A-brace, finish cracks and all. I love a glassy neck better than natural finish. I have a single 12 string left now and its a Adamas II custom order with Optima and glassy 2 piece walnut neck. I am an unashamed fan of bling. Have had the stark looking guitars and a couple of LX models, and nice as they were they were ignored when it came time to pick something up so were passed on. Learned my lesson that black is hard to keep clean. I have a schizophrenic relationship with sunburst, but prefer natural and the adamas 'colourful' finishes.
I suspect that what will be left for me in terms of future NEW purchase from New Hartford would be high end custom order (and Al and I still bounce a project around for me to commit to sometime soon), or vintage re-issues.
Now we've ruled me out as a big target customer I bought my daughter an old custom balladeer to learn on when she was 14. She then traded 'up' to a new Celebrity as she didnt like the musty old smell :-). When she was 16 she told me she wanted a Martin because that was a real guitar and her friends didnt like playing the plastic guitar when they handed it around at gigs. I bought her a D-15 (second hand). Now aged 22 it sits in her apartment most of the time, when she plays out she comes over and borrows my 2006-KOA because she loves the look and sound of it. When she saw the 1981 1614-1 folklore I just bought the other day she asked if I would give it to her. When I asked her why, she said because it sounds amazing and the open slot and wider neck was beautiful to look at and play and the whole look was so unique. I pointed out that at 30 yrs old it had seen more life than her and she replied, well I wish they made them like that new. Seems wisdom does come with age!
I echo what people have said about exposure and marketing. Get some product placement to get Adamii/Ovations on the new Nashville TV show, get them played on stage at CMA Fest, Camp out at South by Southwest and get every new band to come through your tent. I can't find a top end NEW Ovation anywhere in Nashville. Jonmark may tell me I am not looking in the right places, but seriously there is nothing around here that would allow me or any musician in the Nashville area to know anything about higher quality Ovation product other than old guys like me play them in church.
As I said not sure this ramble has been useful but I wanted to share my thoughts.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:50 AM (#460594 - in reply to #460589) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
DanSavage - 2012-10-18 11:09 AM
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 7:47 AM
Lack of innovation has NOTHING to do with Ovations recent struggles. Ovation is building a GREAT guitar, with GREAT features, at a very fair price. Why aren't they selling 100,000 units a year? Imho...it HAS to be a marketing problem. It's the ONLY explanation. (other than a sucky economy)
IMO, alpep nailed it when he wrote that Ovation's reputation suffered because the word of mouth advertising is based upon the low-cost, poor quality guitars most people encounter when they visit a GC or Sam Ash.
No amount of good marketing can overcome that kind of bad reputation.
I don't think Ovation's low cost alternatives at Samash are any worse than the low cost Ibanez's, Epiphones, Fenders, or Yamaha's. You only get so much for $300. But that brings up a good point....all of those guitar makers have a hard time up-pricing a customer to a $1000 plus guitar. Can you even imagine considering a $1800 Ibanez?
One problem may have been even putting the Ovation name on a $300 guitar and putting their reputation at risk to begin with. Those POS's should have always stayed Applause's. If "Ovation" always stood for their better built guitars they wouldn't have to try to explain those crappy guitars selling at Samash. That's why Gibson HAS Epiphone, fer christsakes.
"Word of mouth" advertising has NEVER been that great for Ovation (at least for 20 years). They've always had haters, non-beleivers, and poopoo-ers. But yeah, it sure doesn't help when all the customers have ever seen are $300 POS's.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:52 AM (#460595 - in reply to #460590) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066
bkok999 - 2012-10-18 9:13 AM BTW I plan to purchase a DS778 DX (Elite T Longneck) soon, it represents a lot of what I want at a reasonable price. I just wish I could get a carbon top and better electronics.
you can get a carbon top with better electronics. Several of us have Adamas longnecks. it's called a special order.
Posted 2012-10-18 11:39 AM (#460597 - in reply to #460586) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Mark in Boise - 2012-10-18 9:43 AM I'm not sure the new product manager would get a good sense of what was "important to Ovation guitar players", except that we must have debate fever--we won't answer the damn question, but will bitch at each other until no one can remember what the question was.
I did give it some thought in an earlier post . . . hybrids, like the VXT and, arguably, the EA Vipers, and I'll even add another. How about further development of an SSB type model that moves the "acoustic guitar for electric players" target down the road even further?
Posted 2012-10-18 12:43 PM (#460600 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
Prof...
I was told a month or so ago, Ovation will still build you a EA Viper, and at about the same $$$ from a decade ago...But COME ON Ovation...why are you still sticking that Viper Pre-Amp in the $3K YM63??? It appears that they built a new Viper around an archaic pre-amp.
Posted 2012-10-18 1:06 PM (#460601 - in reply to #460594) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-18 8:50 AM
I don't think Ovation's low cost alternatives at Samash are any worse than the low cost Ibanez's, Epiphones, Fenders, or Yamaha's. You only get so much for $300. But that brings up a good point....all of those guitar makers have a hard time up-pricing a customer to a $1000 plus guitar. Can you even imagine considering a $1800 Ibanez?
One problem may have been even putting the Ovation name on a $300 guitar and putting their reputation at risk to begin with. Those POS's should have always stayed Applause's. If "Ovation" always stood for their better built guitars they wouldn't have to try to explain those crappy guitars selling at Samash. That's why Gibson HAS Epiphone, fer christsakes.
"Word of mouth" advertising has NEVER been that great for Ovation (at least for 20 years). They've always had haters, non-beleivers, and poopoo-ers. But yeah, it sure doesn't help when all the customers have ever seen are $300 POS's.
When you write that the $300 Ovations are just as good, if not better, than other brands in the same price range, I agree 100%.
Now I think you've gotten to the crux of the problem.
At some point, Ovation probably found that the low-cost alternatives, Applause and Matrix, were not selling as well as they liked. So, a marketing decision was made to put the Ovation name onto these low-cost guitars to 'fool' the buying public into thinking that they were buying an Ovation, when what they were really buying was an Applause with the Ovation label slapped onto it.
So, the only way to fix that mistake and rehabilitate the Ovation name is to either stop selling the low-cost guitars under the Ovation name, which isn't very likely, or to bring the QC of these guitars up to the standard of the Amercian-made guitars.
Posted 2012-10-18 5:16 PM (#460611 - in reply to #460601) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2008 Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia
DanSavage - 2012-10-19 4:06 AM
So, the only way to fix that mistake and rehabilitate the Ovation name is to either stop selling the low-cost guitars under the Ovation name, which isn't very likely, or to bring the QC of these guitars up to the standard of the Amercian-made guitars.
To re-use the Apple analogy used earlier, all the Apple products I have say "Made in China" yet the quality is second to none. Ovation span a market from entry to high level. Apple sell an iPod for under $100, but will also sell you an expensive computer. The iPod shuffle is damn well made though.
It would have been better if Ovation had continued to sell the LX guitars alongside the AX - put them side by side in the shops and see which ones people bought - is it just us snobs or will other people appreciate the difference in a head to head competition.
I appreciate the quality touches on the high-end Ovations - the XLR output lets me plug straight into the church PA and the VIP gives a very acoustic sound. People have commented on how nice it sounds.
Posted 2012-10-18 5:36 PM (#460612 - in reply to #460611) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
richard.parker - 2012-10-18 3:16 PM
To re-use the Apple analogy used earlier, all the Apple products I have say "Made in China" yet the quality is second to none. Ovation span a market from entry to high level. Apple sell an iPod for under $100, but will also sell you an expensive computer. The iPod shuffle is damn well made though...
Yes, that was my point. Steve Jobs demanded that Apple products maintain the same quality level no matter where they were made and he refused to accept a lower level of quality just because they were made overseas.
He moved manufacturing overseas so that he could offer the same high-quality products at a lower price.
Posted 2012-10-18 6:38 PM (#460614 - in reply to #460593) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1559
Location: Indiana
stueym - 2012-10-18 10:48 AM
Jonmark may tell me I am not looking in the right places, but seriously there is nothing around here that would allow me or any musician in the Nashville area to know anything about higher quality Ovation product other than old guys like me play them in church.
Posted 2012-10-18 10:34 PM (#460625 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
BobG,
"The problem with Ovation, as I see it, is that they were once big innovators, but have really don't nothing new in 20+ years." Bobbo has pointed out many examples but you won't accept them as innovative. Not much can be done about changing YOUR perceptions if you refuse to acknowledge them. You point to this as the big reason Ovation is "struggling."
I will freely admit that I did not know all the things Ovation has done to their guitars. I will debate whether some of them are actually "innovative" or not. The thing you are missing is the phrase, " ...as I see it.." which echos the bulk of the guitar world. So, "as I see it", they haven't done much based on my knowledge week ago. While I NOW see things somewhat differently, none of the things listed would I call big innovations. Lots of evolutions and changes of the basic design for the better, a few innovative ways to rectify issues they believed they could improve on, but not BIG innovations, " as I see it". Some have a different view of what is a big thing or not. No point arguing that. I can not "refuse to admit" what I do not agree with.
The other part is that Ovation was known for doing very different things and were quite popular for them. However, the other guitar companies were NOT known for the same and so do NOT have to continue to BE innovative to keep their name in the shops and magazines and selling lots of guitars. So, the counter argument of, "Well, show me where THEY made big innovations ! " is completely hollow. Martin is still known for what ever it is compels people to buy Martin. Taylor still does what people expect out of Taylor. Way too many times have a I read or have heard from people that " Ovation use to be...". I would bet , "as they see it ", Ovation has not kept up with things in some way. You could certainly sit them all down and berate THEM for not knowing the inside scoop on Ovation changes. That might change their opinion.
Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by, or why they don't like the shape or the sound or the pickup or ....
How the rest of the guitar buying public "sees it" should be important for the company to know.
Here is a tip for the marketing guys. Get more on YouTube than the three or so Ovation commercials their "channel" has. Get professionally done videos of performers playing their guitars and make them sound really good ! 1 year ago, I had no idea what a Maton guitar was. With clips of Tommy Emmanuel all over the 'tube, from fans and from production DVDs, I know know a lot more. What I can find of Ovation is lower quality amateur stuff and OLD clips from the 70s or early 80s. Come on. Even here there are "Ovation Sighting" threads to help people FIND them being used. How much can a YouTube push cost them ? Maybe then more people with " see it " YOUR way, Bob, and less will believe as I did.
Posted 2012-10-18 11:31 PM (#460629 - in reply to #460625) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2005 Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:34 PM BobG,
. Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by,/QUOTE]
The reason Ovation "has been passed by"?
It's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'Innovation'. Despite JohnW63's constant arguments against the concept, Ovation have continued to be VERY innovative over the last few decades. But it hasn't helped their sales.
The reason Ovation "has been passed by", in MY opinion, has been addressed by surprisingly few in this 7 page discussion - that most people think a CELEBRITY is an OVATION!
Ovation (Fender) needs to change THEIR attitude to Ovations, which (hopefully) will in turn change the general public's attitude to Ovations. It ain't gonna happen over night tho'!
Posted 2012-10-18 11:33 PM (#460630 - in reply to #460625) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2005 Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:34 PM. Or you might try to find out why they think Ovation has been passed by,
The reason Ovation "has been passed by"?
It's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'Innovation'. Despite JohnW63's constant arguments against the concept, Ovation have continued to be VERY innovative over the last few decades. But it hasn't helped their sales.
The reason Ovation "has been passed by", in MY opinion, has been addressed by surprisingly few in this 7 page discussion - that most people think a CELEBRITY is an OVATION!
Ovation (Fender) needs to change THEIR attitude to Ovations, which (hopefully) will in turn change the general public's attitude to Ovations. It ain't gonna happen over night tho'!
Posted 2012-10-18 11:52 PM (#460632 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
So, you think that the "common knowledge" of Ovation is from people playing their lower end guitars ? If that IS the case, then the the next question would be, " Why are they only trying out the cheap stuff ? ". Is that all they can find ?
They have plenty of Martins, Taylors, Santa Cruz, Gibson, Guild ... one or two Takamine, two Seagull, and an Ovation CC 44. I don't really care for the sound of the thing. Of course, there are not just a few clips on youtube that make the Adamas not sound good either. Such as this one:
Posted 2012-10-18 11:56 PM (#460634 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2006 Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR
So John... Why is being a Troll so much fun?
Personally, I do not care if others like Ovations or see them as innovative. I don't care if Fender makes a profit. I like MY guitars and enjoy playing them, even if I ain't that good at it I like the sound. Like Nick B sez "Playing a guitar is like petting a puppy, you don't have to be any good at it to enjoy it." And I enjoy my Ovations. People keep telling you of Ovation innovations and you still say that those innovations aren't good enough. If you don't like the changes, or you don't like the original concept, why should it matter to you whether Ovation innovates? Do you go to the Harley sites and ask why Harley still uses the V-twin when other lay-outs have been proven to be more effective? In the "Kinder-Gentler OFC" no-one seems to want to point-out that you are just trying pick an argument for entertainment. You have taken Good News and used it as an opportunity to get your jollies. You can have any Ovation you want... Just contact Al and he will send your order on its way. Have you credit card ready. Or you can go the BFLG route... I wanted a Trekker with a preamp, so I built one. Then sold it. The new owner was happy and I got the experience.
You keep on telling us what you seem to think Ovation hasn't done...
Contact Taylor and tell them what you want... See what response you get.
If a guitar doesn't satisfy your need, buy one that does... and quit sniveling.
Posted 2012-10-19 12:29 AM (#460637 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2012 Posts: 227
If you think I'm a "troll" you haven't paid attention. If you don't like what I think, don't read it. It's pretty simple. Some people have mentioned this has been an interesting thread. I hope it has. It has NOTHING to do with my "jollies". If I was a troll, I never would have brought up things I think Ovation could do to IMPROVE their place in the guitar spectrum. What is telling in YOUR response is that you don't CARE if others like the brand or if Fender makes a profit by them. I do care. Why ? Because if they have YOUR attitude, they would quickly be GONE. I saw this thread as an opportunity to get the ear of a Fender guy and give them opinions that I thought would help. What was YOUR motivation in this thread ?
Posted 2012-10-19 1:19 AM (#460641 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2004 Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066
well, i don't think the "troll" comment is appropriate in this thread.....so far.
I do think that maybe John is looking at innovations as not being what they are....because they were innovative at the time and others have copied or surpassed some of the ideas that Ovation brought to market....and when they were originally brought to market some of those items that Bobbo listed were TREMENDOUS innovations for the time when they came out.
To continue to use the apple analogy. the iPhone1 doesn't seem all that great now compared to when it came out....but when it first appeared it was a pretty big innovation.
Posted 2012-10-19 5:55 AM (#460644 - in reply to #460639) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:53 AM
Start on page one.
Why don't YOU start by answering the question that's been asked of you probably 4 times in this thread...
Name the HUGE innovations that other acoustic guitar companies have introduced that have caused them to soar ahead of Ovation in the marketplace. (you seem unusually quiet on this point???)
Posted 2012-10-19 6:18 AM (#460646 - in reply to #460644) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2011 Posts: 741
Location: Fort Worth, TX
darkbarguitar - 2012-10-19 5:55 AM
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 1:53 AM
Start on page one.
Why don't YOU start by answering the question that's been asked of you probably 4 times in this thread...
Name the HUGE innovations that other acoustic guitar companies have introduced that have caused them to soar ahead of Ovation in the marketplace. (you seem unusually quiet on this point???)
Not trying to interject politics in here at all, but I feel asking him this is akin to Obama constantly pointing out how Romney won't give specific details of his plans for his presidency when Obama knows full well everything Romney is saying will require "across the aisle" negotiations to implement. I have stayed out of this thread because I firmly believe in O's, ever since the GC I had and sadly sold over 35 years ago. So GLAD to have my 40th anniv Balladeer to replace it. I don't think, as a careful reader of this thread, that John has ducked anything and I certainly think the troll comment was totally out of line (YOU didn't make it). I think he has thoroughly defended his views and it's the inherent protectionism of the brand by long time members here that are causing them to not give his comments the validity they deserve. I'd be willing to bet John isn't losing any sleep over all this disagreement with him. He seems to like O's as much as anyone here. Yes, this coming from the guy who self admittedly got off to the worst start of anyone on any forum I belong to here on this one.
Posted 2012-10-19 6:35 AM (#460647 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
one point
squire stratocaster
made in mexico strat
made in usa strat
differences between USA and mexican are price
difference in squire is quality
now with ovation
what do you have?
celebrity and applause made in china
former usa models made in korea.
unfortunately the QC IMHO is spotty.
Fender is the MASTER of determining how much of a product can be made overseas with putting a made in USA label on it.
so
bowls made in ohio shipped to korea for assembly? why
machine heads are ping they come from China
preamps made in korea? china? I am not sure
so maybe get the korean factory to assemble tops with braces
ship them to the us and slap them on bowls and put a neck on them and call them made in USA
at least the QC would be higher and you would have control over the neck production which is very critical
Posted 2012-10-19 7:44 AM (#460649 - in reply to #460646) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw
DaveKell - 2012-10-19 7:18 AM
I don't think, as a careful reader of this thread, that John has ducked anything
Well, I completely disagree. He has categorically stated that Ovation's "problem" is that they haven't been "innovative" enough. By implication, he is saying that OTHER companies HAVE been, and that's why Ovation has been passed by. We are merely asking him (many times) who these madly innovative companies are, and he has consistently DUCKED the question each and every time.
JohnW is not asking anything new. He is not an "innovative" poster. These controversial threads pop up every so often and garner LOTS of opinions and arguments, back and forth. Usually, however, when someone is asked to answer a question to support their position, they DO....they don't duck it.
Posted 2012-10-19 7:57 AM (#460650 - in reply to #460632) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2005 Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia
JohnW63 - 2012-10-19 2:52 PM So, you think that the "common knowledge" of Ovation is from people playing their lower end guitars ? If that IS the case, then the the next question would be, " Why are they only trying out the cheap stuff ? ". Is that all they can find?
That pretty much sums it up.
The problem doesn't lie with the good folks that already own Celibacies and Applesauces, it's when their friends hear them and think they're listening to an Ovation.
F@ck, it's got Ovation on the headstock! It must be an Ovation!
Posted 2012-10-19 7:59 AM (#460651 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2002 Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ
Maybe a lesson to be learned from other companies: Martin, Takamine, Taylor, Gibson, ...
I have NO idea how these companies do financially. But the guitars certainly seem to BE OUT THERE. Shops have them hanging on the walls for demo and sale, artists are seen playing them left and right, etc. You can't cut a fart in this world without seeing somebody playing one of these brands.
HOW DO THEY DO IT ? The products may suck, but they are OUT THERE. How do they do it ...
Seems to me that every Ovation "innovation" no matter how cool it may be, actually pushes the brand farther into a niche position and away from the main stream acoustic buying public.
A Takamine dreadnaught called "Legend" with an Ovation logo on the headstock would outsell the real Ovation Legend 10 to 1. How is that ???
Posted 2012-10-19 8:37 AM (#460657 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
It is surprising how little other musicians know about Ovations. Here's an example. We have a stand-in drummer who sits in now and then. He is a professional musician who teaches percussion at the college level. He is also a professaional sound engineer, composer, and alsmo plays keyboards and a little guitar. A student asked his opinion about a guitar in the $200-$300 range, to which he had not yet replied. When he heard me warming up, he came over and listened for awhile and started asking me a bunch of questions. He said he recognized it as an Ovation with a plastic back, couldn't believe how beautiful it sounded, and asked if he should recommend it to his student. I had to tell him that what he saw in a catalog in his student's price range was not the same guitar I was playing, which was the custom Adamas 1187 SSB cutaway. It was surprising how little he knew about Ovation products. Sure, he knew the name, the look, the odd shape, and that they'd been around for over 40 years, but all he knew about current models was the one or two low priced models he saw hidden on one page of the Musician's Friend catalog, and before then, he would never consider recommending one because, in his mind, it was just too different. He thought the plastic back was simply an effort to cut cost and make a less expensive guitar. He had no knowlegde of the engineering principles behind the guitar's shape and materials. Although we're fanatics and take this knowledge for granted, most players, and particularly those just starting out, don't have a clue about what Ovation really stands for.
Posted 2012-10-19 9:19 AM (#460661 - in reply to #460610) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2008 Posts: 400
Location: Northwest Arkansas
alpep - 2012-10-18 4:29 PM
I don't see any $300 collings or santa cruz guitars
I've only seen a few Collings and I've NEVER seen a Santa Cruz. Nice guitars. Very nice. From what I've heard. Al. How do you get flatpickers to play Ovation? My CL2079AX plays better(flatpicking) than my D-35. You can actually go past the 5th fret. I wonder if you guys took your guitars, the great ones, to these festivals, like the Walnut Valley Festival Winfield, KS. It is not just a bluegrass festival. Guys plying harp guitars. Martin, Taylor, Gallagher, even Larivee' are there. You can do side by sides too. I played every brand in the building. I came out with a better attitude about my Adamas. Not one of those guitars plays as well as my Adamas. They're loud. But they don't sound close to my Adamas. Just a thought. A lot of these guitars were $3000+. There are very serious guitarists there. It would be nice to see an Ovation/Adamas presence in that room. Most of those guys laugh when I tell them I play an Adamas. 50 bucks says they've never played one. It's that plastic bowl thing. I love the contour bowl. Take some of those. Do some side by side comparisons. The Martin and Taylor booths are across from one another. Get a spot and put out your "Great" guitars. I think you would have some converts if you did that. Just my two cents worth.
Posted 2012-10-19 10:52 AM (#460662 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2005 Posts: 4832
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
Ovations are 'different'. Many folks don't like (or have the sense of self-confidence required) to be 'different'.
Maybe an oversimplification. But I'm pretty simple.
IMO, we appreciate the difference because we're 'different'. .....and that covers most of us I've met or come to know over the years.
That and we're just damned practical people who look at the facts rather than the fads.....but that's not simple.
Posted 2012-10-19 11:05 AM (#460663 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan
AdamasW597:
"50 bucks says they've never played one. It's that plastic bowl thing."
Bingo. This is what people think of when they think Ovation, and it is largely viewed as being cheap. Kind of like what people think of plastic tubas that you see in high school bands. That is why I think that if Ovation is going to stay married to the plastic bowl design, they need to play it up as an advantage rather than just a way to build a guitar for less money. I think the best way to do this would be play up synthetic materials like Rain Song and CA guitars do. Come up with a synthetic guitar that maintains tone and playability, but more importantly do it at a Celebrity (or near) price point.
We all know how great the high end Adamas models are. the problem is that when other guitarists look at a $3000 Adamas, all they see is the plastic bowl and they are inclined to thumb their noses at it. Like wise I would have a very hard time paying more than a grand for an Epiphone or Mexican Fender. Now if you can find a way to build a guitar with those Adamas attributes, particularly the carbon sound board, into a guitar that sells for $600-$1000, I think you would really have something to make Ovation stand out in a positive way.
Posted 2012-10-19 11:23 AM (#460664 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Interestingly, when Ovation came out with the EA Viper models in 1994, where they could've finished the back of the mahogany bodies with a pretty natural stain to show off the wood grain, they decided instead to perpetuate the "bowl" look by using the same paint finish. Was this decision based on cost, or was it product branding based on Ovation's unique bowl?
Posted 2012-10-19 11:59 AM (#460668 - in reply to #460664) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
Prof..."branding based on Ovation's unique bowl?"
I always thought it was to make it look Ovationish. JonMark has a nice example of a finished out body and I would love to strip mine down. Years ago, Ovation told me that if I wanted to order one, they would finish out the wood...it was for a 63 so they were made by order anyway. I never gave any thought to spraying on the back was a cost effective measure...but it makes sense. Like the Gibson CE, imo Ovation missed out in making a beautiful instrument, front and back...
I think the EA68 was a much better looking looking isntrument than the Gibson Chet steel string version of the CE. It was the stars on the fretboard and bridge that really turned me off, aside from my Ovation fetish.
Posted 2012-10-19 12:19 PM (#460671 - in reply to #460666) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2011 Posts: 402
Location: New Hartford CT
That's a good question moody. Even though the finished product was more labor intensive to build, in the years around 1990 they were producing approx 20K units/year in New Hartford alone.
That factory was humming right along. As the decade progressed several labor saving ideas were implemented. Not only did they save labor, the quality improved. Perfect neck profile, perfect finish and standardization so they all have a very similar feel within each given model. That's progress, right?
It's not that simple. This is just an opinion but when you reduce the amount of human effort involved in producing an instrument something is lost.
Posted 2012-10-19 12:37 PM (#460672 - in reply to #460663) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
bkok999 - 2012-10-19 9:05 AM
AdamasW597:
"50 bucks says they've never played one. It's that plastic bowl thing."
Bingo. This is what people think of when they think Ovation, and it is largely viewed as being cheap. Kind of like what people think of plastic tubas that you see in high school bands. That is why I think that if Ovation is going to stay married to the plastic bowl design, they need to play it up as an advantage rather than just a way to build a guitar for less money. I think the best way to do this would be play up synthetic materials like Rain Song and CA guitars do. Come up with a synthetic guitar that maintains tone and playability, but more importantly do it at a Celebrity (or near) price point.
We all know how great the high end Adamas models are. the problem is that when other guitarists look at a $3000 Adamas, all they see is the plastic bowl and they are inclined to thumb their noses at it. Like wise I would have a very hard time paying more than a grand for an Epiphone or Mexican Fender. Now if you can find a way to build a guitar with those Adamas attributes, particularly the carbon sound board, into a guitar that sells for $600-$1000, I think you would really have something to make Ovation stand out in a positive way.
I know I live in a parallel universe, but this just stuns me.
Please name ONE example where Ovation has ever pitched the LYRACORD bowl design as being cheaper to build and that's what they do it. Just one! It's always been about the sound and that is what Ovation has always promoted.
The cheapest Rainsong you can find is $1500 and most are approaching $3K. CA went out of business.
There is no way in hell you can ever build an Adamas for $600 retail. Or even $1000. When someone figures that out, please also find me a beachfront house in SoCal for $200K.
Every single guitar store I've been in around the SF Bay area over the past couple of years have had Ovations displayed. Except for a local little Mom&Pop that had <20 guitars total and every one of them come from Samick. But all the rest had some there. No, not too many high end ones, but lately there's been more now that they are in the sweet spot of <$1000 price point. I'm talking both chain and independents. Hell, every store Moody and I have been to in SoCal have had Ovations in stock.
I play out pretty often. At least once a week, usually two to three times. I see a lot of different guitars and guitarists. I've only ever had ONE person diss my Ovations ... it was a Taylor player who came out to an Open Mic for the first time and he sucked. Almost every guitarist complements and is interested in the Ovations, many fawn over them, and yes, some say they don't like them. Usually because they prefer flat backs ... it's a comfort/playability thing for them and I can accept that. For the most part, these people are real players and accept Ovations as a different flavor. And for all the supposedly huge sales numbers, what I rarely see (and what is usually denigrated by the guitarists at the shows when one shows up), are Taylor guitars.
Maybe some of you are putting too much credence into the opinions of the wankers out there. The cork sniffers and know-it-alls who can't play but spend thousands on their guitars so they have something to brag and pontificate about. Ovation has never tried to build guitars to appeal to the wankers ... Ovation has always promoted their guitars to PLAYERS. Who cares what the wankers think?
But like I said, I probably live in a parallel universe.
Posted 2012-10-19 12:52 PM (#460674 - in reply to #460668) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
amosmoses - 2012-10-19 11:59 AMI think the EA68 was a much better looking looking isntrument than the Gibson Chet steel string version of the CE. It was the stars on the fretboard and bridge that really turned me off, aside from my Ovation fetish.
Because I like hybrids, I have one of the Chet Atkins SST models, too. I find it comparable in many respects, with the Gibson SST's neck being a bit more chunky and its electronics seeming to give it a slightly brighter tone. I don't mind the stars at all. I think I may have posted an A/B comparo between these two models a few years ago.
Posted 2012-10-19 1:17 PM (#460676 - in reply to #460672) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan
Bobbo: " I know I live in a parallel universe, but this just stuns me.
Please name ONE example where Ovation has ever pitched the LYRACORD bowl design as being cheaper to build and that's what they do it. Just one! It's always been about the sound and that is what Ovation has always promoted.
The cheapest Rainsong you can find is $1500 and most are approaching $3K. CA went out of business.
There is no way in hell you can ever build an Adamas for $600 retail. Or even $1000. When someone figures that out, please also find me a beachfront house in SoCal for $200K".
I do not disagree regarding the advantages of the lyrachord bowl, but any good salesman knows that perception is everything. People unfamiliar with the brand perceive it as cheap. I have hung around the various all-wood guitar forums long enough to know this. There certainly are some (like the members here) who do not see the lyrachord bowl this way, but we are not the problem, we like and already purchase Ovations. The problem is attracting new customers and growing the brand.
I wonder if anyone knows the approximate cost difference between building an all-wood box or using the lyrachord bowl?
And I challange your assertion that you cannot profitably build an Adamas or comperable carbon fiber guitar and sell it for $600 to $1000. The price of carbon fiber has come down and smart people are always devising ways to improve manufacturing techniques. Someone could find a a way to do it and I'll wager that they will provided that the market for guitars stays strong. If the demand for guitars dries up then all bets are off.
Posted 2012-10-19 1:38 PM (#460682 - in reply to #460672) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2009 Posts: 1249
Location: Texas
"wankers out there. The cork sniffers"
LMAO...I wonder if there is an Ovation board dedicated to us Wankers and Cork Sniffers. Spoiler alert...most wankers are not sniffing corks. Maybe it is different in CA.
"Ovation has never tried to build guitars to appeal to the wankers" Who cares what the wankers think?"
I am sure Charlie K did and Fender certainly appears to, as well as GC. The Wankers and know it alls have kept Ovation in buisness, I would assume, as well as FMC
Or...if you were referring to "true" Ovations, when you said Ovation, then, in the words of Rosanne Rosannadanna, nevermind.
Posted 2012-10-19 2:28 PM (#460691 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: January 2006 Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
40 years ago, I was the prime customer Ovation was looking for. Having played used guitars for 12 years and becoming frustrated with the used market (then limited to pawn shops, swap meets at the drive-in theater, or if you were really lucky, a friendly neighbor), I went shopping for a new guitar. Back then, my sources were limited to mom-and pop music shops or the department stores (Sears and Western Auto). There were no big box Guitar Centers nor on-line retailers. So I went to the local music store (located in either the Eastland Shopping Center or La Puente Mall in the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles) ready to plunk down maybe $300 on a new Gibson acoustic (since I’d been playing a 1958 ES-125 for 10 years).
I tried a Gibson and was impressed with it. The salesman then pointed to two funny looking guitars with round plastic backs and said they sounded just as good as the Gibson and were the new rage. He played it for a few minutes, as did I, and he was right, it sounded every bit as good as the Gibson. Nonetheless, I said I wasn’t interested because I thought they looked cheap and unconventional. Then he added that the darn things were nearly indestructible whereupon he reared back and swung it like a baseball bat hard against the corner of his counter. The guitar bounced back with such force that it almost knocked him over. We then inspected the bowl and there wasn’t a mark on it. I promptly bought the other one hanging on the wall and have owned the brand ever since.
Maybe Ovation should return to their once successful sales strategy of pushing the multi-purpose usefulness of their guitars as baseball bats?
Posted 2012-10-19 2:39 PM (#460695 - in reply to #460676) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2009 Posts: 381
Location: Miami
I do not disagree regarding the advantages of the lyrachord bowl, but any good salesman knows that perception is everything. People unfamiliar with the brand perceive it as cheap.
That's because all of the bowls hanging out at GC are attached to Celebrities, not Elites or Adamases. When I see a low end O (not with the standard soundhole, but with the sideholes), I try not to play it, but sometimes I give in, fooled by its beautiful familiar look. I pick it up, strum it once, and immediately put it back, hoping nobody heard how horrible it sounds as I embarrassingly put it back on the wall.
People used to call it plastic in the old days too, but they couldn't argue with the sound of a good O. Now, they can call the sound plastic, and they're right, compared to other wooden boxes in the same price range. I miss being able to blow people's minds with a real O at the store. At least I still can at the gig.
Posted 2012-10-19 4:17 PM (#460706 - in reply to #460676) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 10583
Location: NJ
bkok999 - 2012-10-19 1:17 PM
Bobbo: " I know I live in a parallel universe, but this just stuns me.
Please name ONE example where Ovation has ever pitched the LYRACORD bowl design as being cheaper to build and that's what they do it. Just one! It's always been about the sound and that is what Ovation has always promoted.
The cheapest Rainsong you can find is $1500 and most are approaching $3K. CA went out of business.
There is no way in hell you can ever build an Adamas for $600 retail. Or even $1000. When someone figures that out, please also find me a beachfront house in SoCal for $200K".
I do not disagree regarding the advantages of the lyrachord bowl, but any good salesman knows that perception is everything. People unfamiliar with the brand perceive it as cheap. I have hung around the various all-wood guitar forums long enough to know this. There certainly are some (like the members here) who do not see the lyrachord bowl this way, but we are not the problem, we like and already purchase Ovations. The problem is attracting new customers and growing the brand.
I wonder if anyone knows the approximate cost difference between building an all-wood box or using the lyrachord bowl?
And I challange your assertion that you cannot profitably build an Adamas or comperable carbon fiber guitar and sell it for $600 to $1000. The price of carbon fiber has come down and smart people are always devising ways to improve manufacturing techniques. Someone could find a a way to do it and I'll wager that they will provided that the market for guitars stays strong. If the demand for guitars dries up then all bets are off.
carbon fiber is expensive ovation has had trouble sourcing it since it is now used for many different things
an elite T made in USA used to list for 1100 so tell me how you expect to make an adamas for that much?>
Posted 2012-10-19 5:20 PM (#460711 - in reply to #460706) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
alpep - 2012-10-19 2:17 PM
bkok999 - 2012-10-19 1:17 PM
Bobbo: " I know I live in a parallel universe, but this just stuns me.
Please name ONE example where Ovation has ever pitched the LYRACORD bowl design as being cheaper to build and that's what they do it. Just one! It's always been about the sound and that is what Ovation has always promoted.
The cheapest Rainsong you can find is $1500 and most are approaching $3K. CA went out of business.
There is no way in hell you can ever build an Adamas for $600 retail. Or even $1000. When someone figures that out, please also find me a beachfront house in SoCal for $200K".
I do not disagree regarding the advantages of the lyrachord bowl, but any good salesman knows that perception is everything. People unfamiliar with the brand perceive it as cheap. I have hung around the various all-wood guitar forums long enough to know this. There certainly are some (like the members here) who do not see the lyrachord bowl this way, but we are not the problem, we like and already purchase Ovations. The problem is attracting new customers and growing the brand.
I wonder if anyone knows the approximate cost difference between building an all-wood box or using the lyrachord bowl?
And I challange your assertion that you cannot profitably build an Adamas or comperable carbon fiber guitar and sell it for $600 to $1000. The price of carbon fiber has come down and smart people are always devising ways to improve manufacturing techniques. Someone could find a a way to do it and I'll wager that they will provided that the market for guitars stays strong. If the demand for guitars dries up then all bets are off.
carbon fiber is expensive ovation has had trouble sourcing it since it is now used for many different things
an elite T made in USA used to list for 1100 so tell me how you expect to make an adamas for that much?>
Many also seem to forget how many human hours and the number of humans it takes to make an Adamas or any Ovation for that matter. Using the most conservative estimates, I'm pretty confident in saying that the street price of an Adamas is LESS than just the Time and Materials to build it. Just think of the electric bill for the machine that sandwiches the Carbon Fiber top, the ventilation, the epoxies, and insurance and that's just the top, no bracing, no neck, no bowl, no paint, no strings.
I don't think it's any secret that for many years prior to FMIC, the large quantity of overseas built guitars and accessories enabled the Hartford plant to make affordable high-end guitars.
For anyone curios to know what goes into building an Ovation, there are videos floating around from tours gone by. While I was blown away by the first tour I attended, it took at least three tours for it to really comprehend everything that goes into an Ovation. Just looking at all the ways Ovation uses air will boggle your mind. Just think about it. Any other guitar manufacturer can set the guitar on a work surface to adjust it, install parts, install binding, frets, etc.. Ovation has special suction cup stands, an innovation of necessity in itself.
Bottom line.... The Adamas has been at LEAST a $5000+ guitar for long time that on average you could buy for 1/2 of that. Those days are likely over, and I don't think it's a bad thing. Today if you want a $5000+ Adamas, you'll pay $5000+.
Posted 2012-10-20 9:33 AM (#460762 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan
Dear Ovation Product Manager: Congratulations on landing the job. And tho I know you cannot post or participate here, Welcome to the Ovation Fan Club. You have labored long & hard to get to the point where you have been put in charge of one of the most misunderstood brands among it's peer group. The only thing that equals the level of misunderstanding of Ovation guitars is their unrealized potential. . I'm not going to suggest exotic top material, celebrity endorsers, wild paint schemes, or let you in on the secret that by painting the inside of the bowl with a zinc oxide metal flake epoxy finish, the refection of the sound waves toward the top is greatly improved. . And I think most of us here know there are a ton of things to consider between where you have to make things work and where we are coming from. We end users don't have to give a thought to material cost, distributor needs, and intrusive corporate bean counters. . But this we do know. Ovation is capable of making an instrument that will stand proud with any other high end guitar on the market as well as offer features, durability and reliability the others can't. . I can offer this. If there is anything I /we can do to help you, all you have to do is ask.
Posted 2012-10-20 11:35 AM (#460771 - in reply to #460676) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2011 Posts: 97
Location: Marlton, NJ
bkok999 - 2012-10-19 1:17 PM
I wonder if anyone knows the approximate cost difference between building an all-wood box or using the lyrachord bowl?
That's an interesting question. I would find it hard to believe that making an Ovation bowl costs as much (or more) than building wood back & sides, especially when quality wood is being used. There would appear to be much more labor & costs of materials in an all-wood guitar.
Posted 2012-10-20 12:39 PM (#460775 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
Appearances are deceiving. See Miles' post above for an idea on the labor involved in Ovation guitars.
Several of my recent Ovation USA guitars have hand laid fiberglass bowls. The labor involved is substantial. If you've got an ear and sound quality matters to you, it's worth it. But it's expensive. Maybe not as much as Brazilian Rosewood or Cocobolo, but then again you'll pay twice as much for those. Standard mahogany or IR are probably a wash cost-wise vs an Ovation bowl.
On the low and even medium end, I can pretty much guarantee that the cost of a bowl far exceeds the cost of wood for the back and sides.
Posted 2012-10-20 5:19 PM (#460783 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I completely forgot about the hand laid bowls... I've done fiberglass work and just the mat and resin are expensive enough for joe consumer, but imagine the venting, and other ancillary costs just to prep the area to do the work.... then the hours of doing the actual work, then finishing...
I think we are touching on the grand flaw in the perception. The more I think about it, there is no way USA Made Ovation costs less than the average street price for at least the last 10-15 years. Ovation has always been touted as "affordable quality" but to most people I think that meant inexpensive to build, creative techniques, creative materials to keep cost down. In thinking about the factory tours where we have seen and talked to the people building the guitars, I don't recall seeing ANYTHING that was inexpensive. I saw a LOT of creative and innovative techniques to help the workers build more efficiently... but seriously... most efficient rarely means inexpensive. Cost was kept down by selling a LOT of other things that higher margins.
I'm guessing the electric bill has to be in the tens of thousands per month easily. wow...
Posted 2012-10-20 10:29 PM (#460796 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: April 2011 Posts: 97
Location: Marlton, NJ
Not to cause waves, but I'm not believing that "the street price of an Adamas is LESS than just the Time and Materials to build it" - not unless you're talking used prices (and even then, I'm skeptical). Ovation is a business; not a charity.
Maybe back in the day the bowl was hand laid fiberglass, but for quite a long time now they are injection molded. And when it comes to the rest of the guitar - the top, the neck, etc. - the cost would be very similar to any other acoustic of similar quality.
Posted 2012-10-21 11:22 AM (#460802 - in reply to #460796) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
MarkF786 - 2012-10-20 8:29 PM Maybe back in the day the bowl was hand laid fiberglass, but for quite a long time now they are injection molded.
Yes, the original bowl were all hand laid glass before they went to the injection molding. The vast majority of Ovations still get the injection molded bowls. But hand laid bowls are still being used for certain USA models ... I have three guitars from the last five or so years made with them. Not surprisingly, they are the most expensive Ovations I bought; they are also the best sounding Ovations I have. If you were to order the best Ovation they could make, it would come with a hand laid bowl.
Posted 2012-10-21 2:06 PM (#460812 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2002 Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal
I hadn't thought about it much, but the OFC I slothead has a hand laid bowl, as well as the rebuilt A braced Legend and the GC 12 string. And it is worth the money......
Posted 2012-10-21 4:52 PM (#460819 - in reply to #460802) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
stonebobbo - 2012-10-21 9:22 AM
MarkF786 - 2012-10-20 8:29 PM Maybe back in the day the bowl was hand laid fiberglass, but for quite a long time now they are injection molded.
Yes, the original bowl were all hand laid glass before they went to the injection molding. The vast majority of Ovations still get the injection molded bowls. But hand laid bowls are still being used for certain USA models ... I have three guitars from the last five or so years made with them. Not surprisingly, they are the most expensive Ovations I bought; they are also the best sounding Ovations I have. If you were to order the best Ovation they could make, it would come with a hand laid bowl.
According to the factory tour article on Ovation Tribute, in 1984 they were using prepreg polyester resin/fiberglass cloth (thermoset) over a heated chromed mold in a 300-ton press to mold the bowls. (See: Ovation Factory Tour 1984 US)
I would be curious to know whether they're still using prepreg polyester resin/fiberglass method or if not, what manufacturing method they're using now and how the hand-laid bowls are made.
Posted 2012-10-21 8:40 PM (#460827 - in reply to #460819) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
DanSavage - 2012-10-21 2:52 PM
...I would be curious to know whether they're still using prepreg polyester resin/fiberglass method or if not, what manufacturing method they're using now and how the hand-laid bowls are made.
I searched around and found the answer to my question about hand-laid bowls in an online copy of The History of Ovation Guitar:
"Richard recalled the original process for making the backs. "When I got there they had just made their first roundback guitar only a week or two earlier, which was the one my friend Peter Chiles played. That was a hand-made mold. What they would do is to paint the mold with wax and then with an epoxy resin, put fiberglass cloth --fiberglass cloth can be kind of pulled and stretched to form --and then they put on a second layer and put the whole thing under a vacuum. They would then take Vaseline so they wouldn't tear the plastic and squeegee out all the extra resin. And this was really the way they made tips for the rotor blades and other things in aerospace where you would have constant wall thickness but very high strength, where plastic that wasn't reinforced would crack. Those molds were really pretty good."
"According to Bill Morhauf, who would spend a few months as a production manager before moving to sales, the hand-laid, hand-squeegeed bowls were thinner and more brittle, but better sounding --than the later molded type. However, the handmade process would have made the guitars far too expensive."
"So then they made a whole bunch of molds that were the opposite, a female mold you put down into", Richard continued, "but those molds didn't work very well. So for the first few hundred guitars, maybe even more, a lot more than that, I don't know what number it would go up to, but they were all laid up by hand, by this process they way you make panels or wing tips in aerospace."
So, the original bowls were epoxy resin and now they're using polyester resin. Both are available in prepreg form and both can have the same stability, but the epoxy is much more expensive. I use aerospace-quality epoxy resin for molding my parts and it's about $200/gallon. By comparison, a high-quality polyester resin would probably cost about $50/gallon or less.
By going to the prepreg, or pre-empregnated cloth/resin combo, they're saving a lot of labor costs by not having to lay up the bowls and probably get more consistent thicknesses and less waste by not throwing away excess epoxy they squeegee out. By using the heated compression molds, they're probably able to crank out the bowls a lot faster, a bowl every 5 minutes or so instead of 4-5 hours for the hand-laid method described above.
Posted 2012-10-21 8:48 PM (#460828 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: November 2008 Posts: 400
Location: Northwest Arkansas
My entire proposal was to go somewhere all these other guitars are and let high-end Ovations and Adamas' be played alongside them. At festivals. I was laughed at for playing an Adamas. Until they played it. Love O's and A's. I'll stand toe-to-toe with any other player with my Custom Legend. Plug it in and they're smoked. My Adamas sounds better and plays better. I'm just saying for the price, Ovation smokes everyone else. They just won't play them because of myths. Plain and simple. Problem is how to change the myths.
Posted 2012-10-21 8:52 PM (#460829 - in reply to #460828) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: June 2012 Posts: 2333
Location: Pueblo West, CO
mymartind35 - 2012-10-21 6:48 PM
...I'm just saying for the price, Ovation smokes everyone else. They just won't play them because of myths. Plain and simple. Problem is how to change the myths.
I agree 100%. And, this is true all the way up and down the price range. Even the cheap Ovations sound better than the cheap Yamaha, Ibanez and Alvarez guitars. My Korean 2078TX even sounds better than the cheap Martins and both cost the same.
Posted 2012-10-23 10:40 AM (#460947 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
alpep - 2012-10-09 10:18 AM
It is my understanding that Fender has named a new product manager for Ovation and he is interested with meeting and getting some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players.
Don't know why I didn't think of this before--have him meet us at a factory tour!
Posted 2012-10-23 2:20 PM (#460959 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: December 2001 Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
I think a Factory Tour in Korea would be awesome !!!! If that was what was being hinted at.. I haven't been to Korea since 2001 and I so want to bring Lisa. Not sure how the $ is doing there. It fluctuates a LOT and if you're there for a week you can actually make money sometimes on the exchange, but the last time I was there that was not the case. Of course that balanced out the time before when I filled my luggage with mic stands. It's not that they were inexpensive, they were affordable, but I still to this day have not found a US Distributor for them and they are really nice. Lots of other items not available elsewhere. The smartphones we were starting to get about 5 years ago were on par with what was in use there 10 years ago. And the food... gained 10 lbs at least each trip.
Posted 2012-10-23 2:53 PM (#460960 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
Korea definitely wasn't my idea. Nothing against it, and I'm sure our friend Simon would join us there, but I have always regretted missing the tours in New Hartford. "I shoulda been there", I know.
Posted 2012-10-23 4:43 PM (#460967 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
What better way for the new product manager to meet and get some ideas about what is important to Ovation guitar players than a factory tour? I'm surprised Al didn't suggest that. (OK the second sentence is sarcastic, but the first one wasn't.) Since the title of this thread is "New guitars from New Hartford" I expect the factory tour would be in New Hartford, not Korea.
Posted 2012-10-23 6:15 PM (#460970 - in reply to #460968) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: March 2005 Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho
Brad Durasa - 2012-10-23 3:52 PM
Better schedule in lots of open mic, food, and Q&A, and drinking time because touring the Ovation part of the factory won't take very long at all.
I thought of that, but I was hoping there would be something left. Anyway, I've enjoyed touring castles, even though kings don't live in them anymore. Besides, the open mic, or just jamming, eating and drinking, would be worth it.
Posted 2012-10-23 7:02 PM (#460974 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2002 Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee
Everyone seems to be assuming that we here are the target demographic and the Product Manager would be interested in what we have to say. Don't take this the wrong way, but I doubt Fender wants to build your father's Ovation. One look at the people in the line around the Ovation booth at NAMM convinced me that Ovation is focused on and appeals to a very different demographic than is represented here. While the exception proves the rule, if Ovation were to build a guitar to satisfy the desires of this crowd, they'd go broke. They've tried it before when they brought out the Traditional series, and then again with the Reissues. Both attempts went down in flames. Alpep put together several first rate offerings for the OFC and could barely sell the dozen or so guitars they made each time. But I know they've sold thousands of the DJ Ashba and Mick Thomson guitars.
Better make sure you don't invite me to your jam and party. I'd be the turd in the punch bowl.
Posted 2012-10-23 8:01 PM (#460977 - in reply to #460167) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: July 2008 Posts: 185
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
I enjoyed reading peoples thought on this thread. It would be nice to walk into a big box store and see american made ovations on the wall again. I am certainly glad the usa ones have been on my walls for years! Since `97 I have used ovations for my Hot Tuna tribute and for a short time I tried taylor and larrivee but went right back to my ovations, rock solid, stay in tune with nice punch! Once again, I will be pulling out the ovation for the tuna gigs and that`s what will continue to be on stage with me for now on.
Posted 2012-10-24 9:55 AM (#460989 - in reply to #460974) Subject: Re: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: September 2003 Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan
stonebobbo - 2012-10-23 8:02 PM
Everyone seems to be assuming that we here are the target demographic and the Product Manager would be interested in what we have to say. Don't take this the wrong way, but I doubt Fender wants to build your father's Ovation.
I'm afraid that's very true.
Time for me to be put out to pasture.
Or hey.... how 'bout one of those stud farms I've been hearing so much about?
Posted 2012-10-28 10:31 AM (#461115 - in reply to #460167) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: August 2009 Posts: 120
Location: Miami
From the viewpoint of someone who is not a "fan" of any brand, including Ovation - I've liked some Martins, some Ovations, some Larrivees, etc. in my time - I'd say that for Ovation to become a serious US contender again, they would need to attempt a broader range of acoustic sounds, if that's possible. I think the looks of Ovation are killer and they're what drew me to them, as opposed to other guitars, in the first place. The first time I saw one was in Sweden when another guy and I were volunteered to entertain a group of clients at a dinner. I came along with the stock, country cousin's wooden box and he came along with something that looked as though it had taken acoustic guitars out of the barnyard and into the modern age. Sleek, compact, sophisticated-looking, classy, different-looking, and, in, this case, great-sounding.
However, I do not think this is always the case. In guitar stores and among people who have tried all kinds of guitars, it is not the fact that Ovations mysteriously "slip off people's laps" (never did off mine!) that many people seem not to like them. It's the sound. That's what people say: "I don't like the sound." In part, I know what they mean. I have played some Ovations that have sounded really good to me, but too many that really haven't, and I think if they could consistently produce a guitar that, when taken it from the wall, simply blew its neighbors away, then they would sell. However, I think there is something about the lyrachord bowl and the sound it produces with the past and maybe present generation of tops that doesn't hit the spot for a very large number of players.
So, instead of maximizing and expanding the number of gadgets that could be attached to new models, I would welcome greater innovation in the range of sounds that might be teased out of the kinds of designs that made Ovation a front-runner in the first place. My guess is that the casual buyer who wanders into Guitar Center at the moment pulls a Taylor or a Martin from the wall and prefers its sound, pure and simple. I think the challenge for Ovation is to reverse that trend. Ovations already have the looks, but I think they need to deliver more sonically across the board if they are to convince the casual buyer to put the Taylor back and take the Ovation.
Posted 2012-10-28 4:27 PM (#461133 - in reply to #461115) Subject: RE: New guitars from New Hartford?
Joined: October 2005 Posts: 4067
Location: Utah
Timolin - 2012-10-28 10:31 AM
In guitar stores and among people who have tried all kinds of guitars, it is not the fact that Ovations mysteriously "slip off people's laps" (never did off mine!) that many people seem not to like them. It's the sound. That's what people say: "I don't like the sound." In part, I know what they mean. I have played some Ovations that have sounded really good to me, but too many that really haven't, and I think if they could consistently produce a guitar that, when taken it from the wall, simply blew its neighbors away, then they would sell. However, I think there is something about the lyrachord bowl and the sound it produces with the past and maybe present generation of tops that doesn't hit the spot for a very large number of players.
Ovation is an Ovation. Not to be snobby about it, it just isn't a Martin or a Taylor. So to some extent the Ovation sound is part of what it is. And part of it may be people's preconceptions about what a guitar "should" sound like. Plus the marketing and image people have of what a brand represents. Taylor seems to be the most popular brand amongst church players for example, while Martin may be the presumed ideal of bluegrass. So the Ovation may not sound "correct" when they first hear it because of their preconceptions.
But having said that, I think what you say about people not liking the sound at the store is frequently an unfortunate situation. Many stores which did carry Ovations tended to carry lower priced models. We have lamented on this forum a lot about people trying a Celeb laminate top guitar with old worn out strings who then say they hate the sound of Ovations. Well, they haven't played one yet!
In a typical plugged in performance situation, nothing ever beats the sound of an O or an A that I have heard live. Nothing even comes close. Now a good sound guy in a well designed venue can get any decent guitar to sound good. But I have never heard a wood box that sounds close to as good as an O when only a quick sound check is possible. In the plug-and-play venues around here the O's and A's always at least sound good.
Of course nobody is testing out guitars in the store while plugged into a good sound system in a performance venue!
New guitars from New Hartford?
when I moved here eight years ago. People started asking me about my guitar. Then when I opened the shop and started hosting Saturday jam sessions, all of my regulars asked me to find Ovations for them. Now on a typical Saturday there are about ten Ovation/Adamas players to two Martin players and a couple of Yamahas. 
)
) 
Post a couple weeks ago.