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Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Whenever a newbie asks for advice on what Ovation to buy, we trot out the same tired mantra: "Don't buy a Celebrity, for the same money you can buy a used US-Made Oveation."
We (the OFC) should be able to do better.
Buying used scares lots of/most people. Some people may be uncomfortable buying something they have not heard or touched. Playing guitar is visceral; you play it, you hear it, but it plays you in return; you feel it.
We need to recognize that people have budgets and preferences and tastes and be able to offer better advice than the "mantra."
We do the OFC disservice if people who will not consider used or have other preferences find our standard answer unsatisfying and leave the board feeling we are a bunch of dinsaurs that live in the past and have nothing to offer.
Like it or not, Celebrities and Applauses may be the future of Ovation as Adamas suffers a lingering demise.
Suggestions:
Could we start a section where we have owners rate (via a poll) the different models a la consumer reports? OR
Can we generate an intelligent response that makes a purchase recommendation in the various categories of price/new/used and put it in the reference section?
Other suggestions? |
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May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | The problem is that the usual inquiry goes something like this ... "Hi. I want to buy an ovation guitar. I saw one on TV and it looked cool. Which one should I buy." |
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September 2004
Posts: 1180
Location: Vermont USA | Before I got mine I never saw them on TV but you have to admit they do look cool. :cool: And they great tone and playability. I played a few Celebs and they just never did it for me, but when I played my first USA Ovation that did it.
Pauly |
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March 2002
Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | The other problem is that the criteria for buying a guitar is very personal and subjective. Even after defining why a person wants a guitar, there are a ton of choices. Ultimately, the only issues are deep bowl vs. shallow, acoustic vs. plugged in, and Amercian built vs. import.... |
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Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Mitzdawg,
While your Idea is a positive one to help "Newbies", I think they have as much responsibility to ask more direct informative questions about a specific guitar they are thinking about.That way when a member here answers, it's probably because they have played or owned the guitar and know something more personal about that guitar. I have been trying to help a Newbie recently. I wish I could answer all the questions he has thrown my to his satisfaction, But, I am NOT qualified to answer many of them because I have never played or owned the guitars he asked me about. Maybe when a Newbie asks the question that Toby stated above (and he IS right about that), some one should let the Newbie know to go play it, feel it and come back and let us know what he or she felt/heard. Then a member here, If they so desire can lend an opinion. JMHO. |
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January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Before answering the beginner's question, perhaps we should ask three questions right up front:
1. How much are you willing to pay?
2. How do you intend to use it?
3. What is your comfort level with used gear? |
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Posts: 4820
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | AND!
4 - What is your position on Llama co-habitation? |
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March 2005
Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | I like Brad's 3 questions and then expand from there. Sometimes there are just too many questions that they can't be answered by us. They have to be answered by the person who started it. |
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Posts: 639
Location: NW of Philadelphia | I have NEVER said anything bad about Celebs. My ol' CC-257 still plays just fine (as long as my Elite isn't available).
The problem is, buying used a O (or any guitar)requires some knowledge of the guitar being purchased. O-noobs don't have that knowledge. Lets face it, if we didn't know the difference, you could confuse any two O's with similar finishes and shapes. Yet they may be many hundreds if not thousands of dollars different in price.
So the question still stands... How can we help a newbie choose thier first Ovation? |
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August 2006
Posts: 3145
Location: Marlton, NJ | I would have gladly kept the KOA Celeb that my wife got me for my birthday last year if I didn't get the '05 collectors that same day.
Would I have bought it on my own? No, but it sounded and played just fine.
On the other hand... for what it cost, many a nice USA O's could be had. |
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May 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Montana | I think an "inter-library" loan sort of arrangement would be perfect so that they (we) could try them out - anyone got a VXT and an EA68 to send me so I can compare? |
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Posts: 12750
Location: Boise, Idaho | Good luck, Scott. Montana is even more remote than Idaho. |
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November 2008
Posts: 83
Location: North Wales, UK. | Not a lot wrong with the Celebs I know as I have a CC0045 12 stringer. I must say the state of the neck and the playable setup were sh1te but after a good setup and a set of Elixir 10 - 46's there is not a lot to complain about.
I am sure a lot of high-flier USA only merchants could/will shout 'foul' but how many of the experts have owned one????...They are still Ovations :cool: |
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November 2006
Posts: 3969
| I've owned 2 Celebs. I guess what I say about them could be interpreted as negative, but only in the context of comparing them to a similar US-made model. I had a mid-bowl cutaway solid spruce top Celeb with lots of bling (a CP2002 Limited Edition). Very pretty guitar, and at the time I thought it sounded wonderful. And compared to a comparable quality import woodbox, it certainly did. But there's no way in hell that anybody can convince me that it's comparable in tonal depth and volume to a C778LX (which looks exactly like it), or even a late-70s-to-early-80s Balladeer, which can be had these days for a very few hundreds.
Face it - Celebs are designed to be made more cheaply than the domestic models. They are, for the most part, entry-level guitars. From the grade and types of materials, including hardware, to the amount of handwork, to the types and degree of QC inspections, they are meant to trade certain, shall we say, more desirable characteristics found in domestic models for affordability. Cheap labor isn't the only cost-saving reason for producing things in the Pac Rim. Hell, transportation costs, with fuel being what it is, will eat most of those savings up.
Bottom line - it's not a knock at Celebs to say that an older US-made Ovation will be a better guitar. If a person has to have a brand-new Ovation, newness being the defining criterion for purchase, but can't afford a domestic model, then by all means get a Celeb. Otherwise, there are better - yes better in every sense that matters to a guitar - options available in the used domestic market.
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November 2008
Posts: 83
Location: North Wales, UK. | Is your glass half empty, or is it half full?
I dislike Ford cars (auto's to you) and I have owned one and hired a few others but I certainly would not advise anyone not to buy one. After all, they still get you from A to B?
Better to have a few 'entry level' newbies than possibly scare them off with over inflated USA made guitars.
Ovation could be thinking similar.
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Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| Most assuredly half-full. Of course KMC/FMIC wants to sell guitars, and sell a lot of Celebs they do. But where do those Celeb owners go when they're ready to trade up to a better guitar? Very, very few will go to a US-made O. After being teased mercilessly by fellow guitarists for their "plastic guitars" and "canoe paddles," and having no reference point for knowing better (the satisfaction of playing a higher-end US model and blowing away the surrounding woodboxers), they opt for a Martin or Taylor, because those do indeed sound better than the Celebs.
Maybe KMC/FMIC don't care about repeat business. Maybe they make enough - whatever that means - on first-time sales that lifelong customers don't matter that much. Maybe they can't possibly keep up with demand for US-made guitars with the production facilities and expertise they have now. Whatever, none of that matters to me.
When someone comes on this board and asks for advice on a guitar purchase, and they're completely unaware of the differences, both quality- and price-wise, between new imports and older domestics, I'll continue to advise (not insist) that they consider the latter before making a decision. |
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Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | A "newbee" to the OFC that asks a question about purchasing a guitar (especially a newer guitar player)is clearly asking for advice of experienced Ovation owners for a reason. He is trying to avoid the disappointment of a bad purchase. If a friend approached me for my opinion on guitars, I would do my best to steer him or her in the right direction based on my personal experience. The best advise I could give is to seek the most bang for your buck, as with anything. If someone tells me he only has $150, I'd try to help him find a good used Celeb. If he has $250 to spend, I'd steer him to a used Balladeer or a higher-end Celeb. If he says he has $500, I'd encourage him to take his time, do his research, and pursue a higher-end used USA Ovation guitar. I think that the overall consensus here has been that used USA Ovations are about the best deals on the planet. I'm am NOT saying that a better deal cannot be found (somewhere) on a different brand guitar, but there is a REASON they have come to THIS site. Most people who posts opinions state that it is their opinion. For those who strictly want a new instrument, and have stated their price range, it doesn't take much to help them out, and there are always music stores they can go to for face-to-face help. |
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Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Why is this so damn complicated? A guy asks for an opinion and that's it. I have no vested interest if he follows it or not. In a lot of cases there's better choices than celebrity. Or maybe not. |
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Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Wait a minute! I should have said that! |
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October 2008
Posts: 639
Location: NW of Philadelphia | Originally posted by auriemma:
I have NEVER said anything bad about Celebs. My ol' CC-257 still plays just fine (as long as my Elite isn't available).
Well, I just got the call. After 10 long arduous days and nights of waiting, my Elite-T has a fresh setup with 10-46 Nanowebs on her. So I guess my Celeb is back to SUCKS! :eek:
Just kidding. :rolleyes: |
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August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | If you buy a new low-end guitar for $500, the minute you carry it out the door, its 'value', if you're lucky, is about $300.
If you buy a used, higher quality guitar you PAY the used guitar price. If you sold it coz "guitar playin' ain't fer me" then you sell it and get your money back. The 'value' is already established.
My suggestion... I think the very first thread on this forum should be an 'FAQs for noobz' which would include not just the "which guitar" question, but all the main questions / topics that get the search nazis' blood boiling. |
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Joined:
November 2008
Posts: 83
Location: North Wales, UK. | "Why is this so damn complicated? A guy asks for an opinion and that's it. I have no vested interest if he follows it or not. In a lot of cases there's better choices than celebrity. Or maybe not."
Thanks for being positive and straight to the point m8 :confused: |
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August 2008
Posts: 121
Location: Maine | There, Gallerinski, someone finally makes sense. When a thread goes to over 80 responses in less than three days, you know that it's a cluster. KISS, keep it simple. If the guy is a new player, I think that we, as Ovation enthusiasts, suggest an inexpensive Ovation to start. It's that simple. If they get through the sore fingers and time spent learning chords and still remain enthusiastic, they will want to move on up to a better model. If not, well then they haven't spent a whole lot of money up front and can recoup most of it through a sale of the instrument. If they continue to be revved up and become a member here, etc., there in for a great ride. It's just that simple. |
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Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | Put a leash on the brontosaurus....
Didja hear the one about the guitar-noob who despite all the teasing from his friends about plastic paddles and toy guitars still has the stones to ask the OFC about buying an Ovation? (Keep in mind that this noob probably barely knows what a fret is, let alone how to check for fret wear. High action/warped neck finish crack versus top crack, do the electronics work OK? - FORGET about that stuff! Unless the noob has access to an experienced player, he won't consider a used unit.) With good reason - I bet half the used guitars I look at in Daddy's have serious issues. yeah - send in the noobs. I'm sure they will get honest, unbiased direction from the salesmen.
Oh-yeah - the punchline:
And the OFC basically says that unless your back is against the wall pricewise, don't buy a Celebrity, buy a used domestic unit, because they are wicked great values.
Hello? A noob hears: The entry-level units are NFG and the high-priced domestics lose value pretty fast. Why do they depreciate so fast? Supply/demand.... Hello, Taylor?
There are some nice Celebs out there that compare well dollar-for-dollar against competitors. We need to ID those models for the noobs and be able to recommend them.
That's why it might be complicated. It's too easy to dismiss all Celebs in one quick statement. "Or maybe not." We'd have to work to uncover which Ovation entry level are best, that's too hard and complex.
While the dinsosaurs stagger off to the tar pits clutching their domestic herds, I'd suggest the rest of us try to uncover those Celebrity gems and be ready to recommend them. |
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September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Give advice to Newbies from personal experience, not statistics and snobbishness...
Tell them that your CS-257 was/is a Nice guitar. So was/is my CC-255.
But I always want to tell them that although my CC44 was a cool guitar for $400, my used 1621 sounds better and cost less.
(as proof, the CC44 is gone and the 1621 is still here)
But I will comment that the USA bias can be a bit annoying. For those of us who admit to owning (quite a few) Celebrity's... It is nice to aid in the decision if the decision is between a CC44 or a CDX24... (get the CDX, solid wood and better pre-amp. center hole sounds better to the player) |
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May 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Montana | Ok, I'll tiptoe into this one slowly. I still consider myself a newbie as I've only been playing for a year now - after a 30 year hiatus. If I'm being honest I'll admit that most guitars have better tone than can be realized by me due to my limitations in technique. And it's somewhat frustrating to take my guitar to the music store and have the salesman/owner make my guitar absolutely sing. In my house there are guitars that are much "better" than my particular O in terms of value, potential sound, etc. But they are just masterpieces in waiting for me. Oh sure, I play them from time to time. But it is the O that just fits and works. And so for me, what works is the guitar that feels and looks good and so I enjoy practicing. I guess what I'm saying is that for a newbie it should be simple: All O's of all varieties are good. And if to you, a guitar sounds good, feels good, looks good, stays in tune, then it's a good guitar and so buy it and play it! |
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March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | OMA, thank you. On this and many other threads, offshore O's usually get a lot of disrespect. And yet in another thread just today, many people were raving about the great quality wood boxes coming out of China. :confused: I have sold a lot of Celebs since I've been in business and I have stated before that it is probably the BEST new starter guitar on the market. Infinitly more PLAYABLE than other brands in that price range. When someone starts on an O of any type, they become spoiled by how easy they are to play, and when it's time to upgrade, only another Ovation will do. At least that's been my experience with repeat customers. I have a LOT of people who have asked me to call them any time I get ANY Ovation in. And those who own Celebs are VERY happy with them. When they hear/play a USA model, they start saving their pennies. |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Isn't one of the first questions if they want mahogony or rosewood and if it's rosewood do they want Brazillion? |
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Posts: 379
Location: Alagoas, Brazil | Well, it´s almost midnight here and I have to wake up early tomorrow. But I would like to share my opinion.
First of all, I would like to point to the fact that every major brand has a cheaper line of guitars. Gibson, for instance, has their Epiphone line. I have an Epiphone, and despite the fact that it cost me less than a third of the price of a Gibson, it is a very respectable guitar. Anyway, it is not sold as a Gibson, and everybody knows that.
Takamine has their Jasmine line, and most people don´t even know that it is a cheaper brand of the same company.
The way I see it is that those companies are telling us, the buyers, that they make the product but they don´t want these to be taken as the same thing that their first liners. It is something like: "we don´t accept responsability for the quality of these guitars we are selling. We sell them for the money, and that´s it".
Now, Ovation has a different approach. Their UPPER line has a different name, Adamas. Their Celebrities and Ultras carry the Ovation brand. The way I see it is as if they were saying: "ok, these are the cheaper Ovations, but these are still OVATIONS. You can expect sound and playability similar to the more expensive ones, in an economic package. Not the same, since they are economic, but we make it and market it".
It took me 30 years to buy an Ovation. That´s why I bought an Adamas. But when I started, thirty years ago, I would be glad to have a new guitar. My first guitar had a horrible crack on the top, that I skillfully mended with silvertape. If instead I could get a guitar in the same league of a Celebrity or an Epiphone, I would be the proudest boy in the hood.
So, if someone asks me what should they buy, I answer: buy the best you can, because thirty years pass by much faster than it seems, and yet you will miss not having a decent guitar all this time.
My own two cents.
Miguel |
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Joined:
February 2009
Posts: 119
Location: New York | I think that this has been an intelligent discussion where everyone has some great theories and input. This is why I enjoy being involved with a group such as this. I have only been here for 2 or 3 days now and I don't regret the decision.
Your humble friend
Hoss |
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Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1477
Location: Michigan | it doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure out if one new ovation is an imported celebrity model and costs $400.00 and the new american made one costs $1000.00 there just might be a difference in the quality of the two.
anyone newbie or not who doesn't go out and play whatever brand that they are buying for the first time is nuts in my book to buy one from listening to any of us. my first was a cs 257 that i still think is the cats ass for my first o.now i have added two more adamas to my war chest.you crawl before you walk.
newbies play one before you buy one.GWB |
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Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | In the $500. range potential celebrity buyers should also look at the Taylor Big Baby and the Takamine EG440SC. A bit more traditional looking than a celebrity, but damn nice sounding guitars with quality features and excellent workmanship. |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Yeah... But they are wood boxes, and one is a Taylor on top of that! |
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May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Just saying, there are other great buys out there in entry level guitars. That's why it's important that someone asking for advice gives a little background what he's looking for. |
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Advice for Newbies