|
|
Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 280
Location: Waterloo, IL | I was talking with a friend of mine recently about barr chords. He is a tough guy to catch up with, so did not get to talk with him very long. He has played guitar professionally. I had asked him about barr chords, as I have been having difficulty with them. He suggested using inside chords, saying that they are popular with jazz players.
I would like more information on how to play these inside chords. Thanks. :confused: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | This has to rate as one of the best questions I've heard asked around this Board in a long time. Not that there aren't other good and legitimate questions, there are. But I think this one could enlighten players on a lot of different levels. Thanks, Chuck. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | When I first read that I was thinking of making "E" and "A" shapes up and down the neck without the index finger barre....
Then I found THIS
Any help? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1118
Location: NW Washington State | Disclaimer: I'm a crappy guitar player- really nonplayer- and don't know my plectrum from a hole in the ground. But I'm really interested in this stuff, so here are a few ideas and resources. Worth every penny you paid for 'em.
I have (had?) a chord chart that had a special section of "inside" 4-string chords. All were played on the 5th thru 2nd strings. I have lots of other chord and jazz books, but don't remember seeing this emphasized anywhere else.
Barre chords are great for strumming and accompanying yourself. But some people would say that they're too big and sloppy. One type of "jazz" chord voicing uses fewer, carefully chosen notes. Here are some examples with 7th chords.
Kent Murdick has a series of videos on YouTube where he covers some similar chords.
Here is a page that compares some rhythm styles. The first part shows some four-string chords that might be the "inside" type. The rest look look like jazz rhythm chords that have been pared down to the essentials to fit into a jazz combo.
Hope this helps!
-Steve W. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Well, the short story is this: instead of using a bar (index finger) you decide which notes you really need and fret ONLY those notes. These are usually movable forms and I'll bet that you know some already. You may know the "Hendrix" chord (E7#9 x7678x) that turns up in "Foxy Lady". This chord can slide up and down the neck. Or the smooth-sounding Eminor9 (x7577x)....
Dobro Hint #76: I suggest using your ear to find PLEASING chord "forms" or "shapes" that you can "hear" and move freely up and down the neck. Shop around IN THIS FIELD OF FORMS Find a form you like, move it around, experiment, and ask what IS this thing and how can I use it (where's the root so I can put it in the right place when I need it)?
Naturally it helps to know how chords are generated from a given scale: Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th. What's an extension? What's an altered tone? (you'll need to know the fingerboard.)
Depending on your level, you might Google the concept "Drop 2 guitar chord" "Drop 3 guitar chord" to get to the heart of the matter.
Examples: Drop 2 chords
Or a personal favorite: DIATONIC CHORDS int he style of Eric Johnson & Holdsworth.
If any of this is just gibberish, worry not: there are easy points of entry that will have you playing "inside chords" quickly and with pleasure... just let me know. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1118
Location: NW Washington State | Dobro, where can we find Hints #1 thru #75? :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145
Location: Marlton, NJ | Greg - very cool stuff! Would you recommend the books by the SheetsofSound guy? They look pretty interesting.
Great topic Chuck! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Seriously: the next step is to ask VERY specific questions, like "how is a 7th chord constructed"? Or I have this progression x-y-z: how do I play it with "inside chords"? How do I "spruce up" a simple progression?
Most simple and beautiful forms can "wear several hats". For example: the three-note inversion xx6x57 will do nicely for E major and C#min7 (rootless). You can do ALL sortsa stuff with the form xx5668 (its a dom7 with a 9th a min7b5 etc.) Enharmonic awareness!
The Ear is supreme commander in all this: if it sounds good, use it! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | I do something similar to this but on a very simplistic level when I play with the band at church. I don't read music, just chord charts. There are times when the chords on the charts that I'm given move very fast. You can't make complete chords and stay up with the music, so I just figure out what notes within the chord I real need and grab those. A lot of times I'm just implying a chord. Makes it a lot easier to get thru a fast passage..... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Right on! That was my first seat-of-the-pants lesson too: In jazz ensemble (Los Altos High School, CA) I was struggling with these ridiculous chords in the chart. Six-string monsters with names like D#11b9/C#. The bandleader (a cool dude named Taber) said this: "Freddie Green played guitar in the Basie Band for years. Most of the time he only played TWO strings. There are fundamentally only TWO types of chords: the maj/min type and the dominant seventh. For one you can play a third of some sort (the notes, say, G and B close together) for a seventh chord just play the tritone (F and B). Those are the main notes anyway and no one will miss the other stuff: a bass player will handle the lows, the singer will have cool melody tones. ... It really worked: The Freddie Green theory of comping! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Great discussion here. Thanks for taking the lead, Dobro. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Crimson: I don't really know about the Sheets of Sound guy's books. If you follow the lesson, he's just harmonizing scales in fourths and then finding cool inversions. That was really the big change in the jazz sound around 1964 when McCoy Tyner went into the whole "quartal" (chords-built-in-fourths) dimension that you hear in this clip. And, you'll notice, this is why "jazz guitar" often sounds more corny in the chord department than what keyboard players do. Hence Sheets of Sound Zucker is showing what progressive players do to remedy the situation.
WARNING: You can take all this shit too far. When your brain begins to hurt from stacking fourths and inverting them, check out this PARODY OF THE WHOLE "ULTRA-MODERN CHORD" crap This Aussie has a wicked sense of humor that most of the dumbasses who stumble on his postings don't even understand:)
POINTER #98: When making music with "inside" (movable) chords it is essential to have good VOICE leading as you move from one form to the next: the upper and lower notes should not skip wildly, but (ideally) move only a whole or half step at a clip. Explained on this page. Herbie Hancock tells the story of what a voice-leading nazi Miles was even in the freer days of the 60s quintet! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | My brain hurts! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Back to basics. Here's a favorite "Freddie Green" trick maybe you know.
BLUES IN G (G7 C7 and D7)
Have a buddy play the roots of the chords (or sing them): G C G G C C G G D D G G
Now, YOU play the F note (4th string, 3rd fret) and B note (3rd string, 4rth fret). That's G7
When your buddy moves to the D bass note, slide your two notes DOWN one fret (E note, Bb note): That's your C7.
For the last chord (D7) slide the first thing you did UP a fret (F# note C note)
VOILA: two note "inside" or movable chords! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Line 5 above should read:
When your buddy moves to the C BASS NOTE , slide your two notes DOWN one fret (E note, Bb note): That's your C7. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 280
Location: Waterloo, IL | Wow, I ask what I thought was a fairly simple question, and my brain gets overloaded! Now if I can just get it squished down to a simple form that my brain can handle, I might even be able to play inside chords! :p |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Well, just start with the 'field of forms' link in my first post. You'll be sure to find some nice sounds you can use. It IS intimidating because music is infinite. The guitar is just a groovy "matrix" or "slide-rule" to gain access. You're supposed to get lost! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | Yep. Knew where this was going... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | Forget Sheets of Sound. Where do we buy the Dobro book? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Hey, music is infinite: there is something here for everybody. Having only barre chords can be very limiting (and tiring for the hands!) It is good to have options! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145
Location: Marlton, NJ | Originally posted by Captain_Lovehandles:
Forget Sheets of Sound. Where do we buy the Dobro book? I think I might just move to Chicago - no way to get all of that knowledge and experience out of a book! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2006
Posts: 3969
| Great discussion and information. I've been experimenting with/learning about this very subject in my current lessons. Once you get the hang of it it's very powerful. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Chuck: here's another trick (I hear it in James Taylor's comping ... and my friend Jeff Burns is a master of this one):
Take familiar chords and ADD color tones, especially open strings.
[The chord code here, by the way, is just strings + frets low > high: So G major would be 320003 ]
Sweet Eminor (add 9th): 024000
Exotic D major (sus 9): x04030
Sweet D minor 9th: x00560
Exotic B major (4th): 799800
Flamenco F# open barre: 244300
(go from this to G & back)
It's like Darwin said: "Endless forms most beautiful!" |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2009
Posts: 335
Location: Reisterstown, Maryland | Originally posted by TAFKAR:
My brain hurts! I think mine died.
But man, this is interesting :cool: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Get out your guitar, and just try the chords in the last post. I promise you'll like 'em.
Sweet Eminor (add 9th): 024000
Exotic D major (sus 9): x04030
Sweet D minor 9th: x00560
Exotic B major (4th): 799800
Flamenco F# open barre: 244300
(go from this to G & back) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Weaser P:
This has to rate as one of the best questions I've heard asked around this Board in a long time. Not that there aren't other good and legitimate questions, there are. But I think this one could enlighten players on a lot of different levels. Thanks, Chuck. Yeah, but you didn't answer his question!??? :p |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Great stuff Greg! Thanks |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Hmmm.... Well, ask the question again. With a little teaching experience I'm sure I can find a way to answer it! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | So I'm in my office looking at this note I just wrote on a writing pad that says "Need to try an exotic BM suggested by Dobro".
Now I need to hide the note from my staff. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | I thought he answered the question many times over, emphasizing that the real answer is to find a starting place you can understand, play and experiment. In fact, Dobro's first post in the thread gave enough homework to last a while. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | I think dbg was razzing ME when he said that I didn't answer his question, Jas. A million comics out of work and Bob's trying to break into the business through the OFC. To respond, there are several reasons for me not answering not the least of which is I didn't have anything CLOSE to an intelligent answer. I DID, however, figure that someone (and Greg immediately popped into my mind) would and that it might be informative for a lot of people (including me). ;)
By the way, GREAT stuff, Greg. I knew I wouldn't be disappointed! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | ah, yeah....I was just razzing the weaser. That's why I had his quote in there. The rest of you all did a great job answering the question. Sorry for the confusion. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | So here's a righteous example of a great tune with chords and color: Joni Mitchell and James Taylor work out on "Woman of Heart and Mind". Wow. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by dobro:
So here's a righteous example of a great tune with chords and color: Joni Mitchell and James Taylor work out on "Woman of Heart and Mind". Wow. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Indeed: It's just another way of adding color.
Which brings me to another trick: HYBRID CHORDS!
We all know the sound: a simple triad over an unusual bass note or chord. You can make beautiful music with such color chords. Examples:
D/B 020232
D/C x30232
E9/Bmin 220102
F#7/A x02320
the possibilities are endless! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 841
Location: CA | With all due respect to the advice and links on this subject so far, I think watching what Billy Gibbons does on a few ZZ Top vids on youtube demonstrates 'inside' chords very well. From what I can tell, he's not doing anything very complicated, and he's not doing anything very different. Many songs are just different riffs on the same 3-4 basic chords. But day-amn, they sure make 'em sound good. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | "Which brings me to another trick: HYBRID CHORDS!"
We've created Frankenchord. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Weaser P:
"Which brings me to another trick: HYBRID CHORDS!"
We've created Frankenchord. Well. weaz, I can't razz you anymore cause people don't get it, but boy, do you need some razzing!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | My understanding is I'll get mine someday.
(At least that's what SWMBO says) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by dobro:
Indeed: It's just another way of adding color.
Which brings me to another trick: HYBRID CHORDS!
We all know the sound: a simple triad over an unusual bass note or chord. You can make beautiful music with such color chords. Examples:
D/B 020232
D/C x30232
E9/Bmin 220102
F#7/A x02320
the possibilities are endless! Jimmy Webb is huge into these, with the bass notes leading the way to where he's going next.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | True enuf. If you look up a few posts, I do a blues in G with 2 or 3 note chords.
LOOK AT THIS FOR EXAMPLE: the BASIC idea is to be free: to be able to quickly "grab" any chord you need (maj, min, 7th etc.) without HAVING to bar.
Does wonders for songwriting too! Wins hearts and minds and women.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by dobro:
True enuf. If you look up a few posts, I do a blues in G with 2 or 3 note chords.
LOOK AT THIS FOR EXAMPLE: the BASIC idea is to be free: to be able to quickly "grab" any chord you need (maj, min, 7th etc.) without HAVING to bar.
Does wonders for songwriting too! Wins hearts and minds and women....
I tease in the band that I'm a lazy guitar player. If I can figure out a tune using a capo and/or partial 2-3 note chords that results in less movement of my left hand, then I'm a happy camper. There's nothing noble about playing a lot of bar chords and moving all over the neck.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Beyond all this, as I get older, barre chords bother the muscles in my lower arm. I have an old jazz tune I play (Can't Get Started)that's almost all barre chords....by the time I'm finished with that song my whole left arm is killing me. Great old song that everyone wants to hear, but I'm starting to hate playing it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
There's nothing noble about playing a lot of bar chords and moving all over the neck.... Day-um, now ya tell me...  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Hey, don't listen to me. Dob's the guitar player. I'm just a lazy hack.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | So here's what you do: Say you're playing it in the key of C. The "grips" you can use are easy!
Cmaj7: x32000 or x35450 or x34530
Amin7: 002213
Dmin7: x53555
G13: : 3x3455 or 3x3430
E9 : x76777
Amin7: 5x5555
D13 : x5x577
etc.
What is cool about these type of grips is it's easy to learn to "walk the bass" on 'em.
What key do you do the tune in darkbar? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Dob, this is cool, but I've got to ask, do you have a job? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | You got me there, bro.
Confession: I'm livin'
on a steady diet of government cheese...
in a VAN down by the river.
True story! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Homeless..... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | A moveable chord in a hybrid world. I think "diminshed" is accurate... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | ...but with an augmented sense of humor.
Gotta love that. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | My JOB, besides the lucrative jazz career :) is another quixotic passion: I teach and publish (lest I perish).
In fact, I've been accused of being a "compulsive teacher". This thread confirms that.
Anyone else want to discuss Major7th#11 chords, their parent scales and harmonic contexts? Can't wait! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | You've got a phd and you're sitting in the back of a van down by the river, messing with a laptop. Do I have that just about right?
I state again, homeless?
Hell man, you're my kind of people! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Location Location Location | Fascinating stuff here.
dobro, have you spent any time with George Van Eps 'Harmonic Mechanisms', and if so, how did you approach it? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5330
Location: Cicero, NY | "Hell man, you're my kind of people!"
Greek Drama and Metafictional Poetics vs The Lineman For The County.
Paul, please re-read this entire thread. Slowly... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Well, I lied about the van... But a Blackberry makes it easy to post on this site even when kickin' it in the ProtaPotty. 'know wadi'm sayin' biaa*ch
Van Eps: I used to own the first volume: it's an amazing resource, especially for zealots of chord-melody guitar. His approach is best described as "pianistic", and nobody will teach you more about chord subs that gvE. His books are deep and meticuolous: the approach is calculated to be efficient physically as well as harmonically. To be honest, I'm not a great practitioner of jazz chord melody, but I love it and have made a few arrangements (e.g., Round Midnight, a solo in No Mystery) For the van Eps method, by the way, you need to be able to read staff well...
My main influence was the Berklee guitar school where my teacher Dave Bradley was trained. He approached the axe more from the Mick Goodrick and Bill Leavitt angle, if that means anything to you.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Location Location Location | I appreciate the response. I'm not really into the chord-melody thing either, but I got the books to give me some inside track on harmony. Meticulous, yeah, but also fairly tedious and VERY dense. I'm aware of the Bill Leavitt books. I worked through his sight reading book, and slugged my way through the Modern Guitar method volumes.
Great insights you're providing there. I feel like I'm getting away with something by tapping into this stuff. Thanks. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | The truth: You need only three things: The Real Book (an accurate lead-sheet); A clear understanding of how to analyze a chart and build chords; IMAGINATION!!! The beauty of the "lap piano" (guitar) is that it speak to each of us individually. YOUR chord melody or comping will necessarily be different from MINE. Yea! Ted Greene and van Eps are just two stories among many... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | About 35 years ago, Guitar Player magazine put out a double album. They brought in a number of great guitar players to play tunes (I'm sorry I didn't meet Larry Corryell at the Ovation 40th party in '06 -- I just wanted to tell him that his tune, Autumn in New York was incredible!). Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel did two tunes together. The one that stuck in my mind was Tea For Two. At first it was slow and nothing special. Then they picked up the pace. Kessel single note stuff was incredible, but better yet was Ellis' chord leads. I can still hear it all these years later...... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 280
Location: Waterloo, IL | Amazing how one question can get a thread going this well. :) I learn a little, others learn a little, and we all struggle to improve our playing even more. Now if I can just get these inside chords working for me... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | BRILLIANT !!!
Thanks Gregg :)
..and Thank you CHUCK for this thread.. :)
V |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | You'r most welcome.
(signed) "music nerd" :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | GREAT thread! GREAT topic! GERAT information!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | Related post I found at guitarforbeginnersdotcom
here |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Nice lesson! I really think that it is VERY important to "get free" of bar chords in order to grow. Barre chords are essential and the first big step, but if you are locked into them, you get REAL tired fast and have no variety in your chords: every Ab maj 7 will sound the same. No color! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | This is a timely topic for me. I've got what seems to be an inflamed tendon on the top of my left wrist and forearm. Barre chords cause it to get worse. Either I look for new ways to do barres or stop playing for a month (according to most, no great loss to the music world).
I'm lucky in that I've got big hands and can grab a lot of chords using my thumb to catch the bass note, but open chords up the neck gives me more tones with which to work. Between capos and open barres, I might still be in business...... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | So necessity IS the mother of invetion, Moody:)
It's actually a fun puzzle of sorts. You think of a chord you need, say G... OK: it contains the notes G B D and maybe F or F# for a seventh sound. So you ask: what open strings can I use? What do I need to fret? Then you can throw in ANY note for color, as long as it sounds good to your ear.
Check out the intro to FROM THE BEGINNING (GUITAR LESSON) by Emerson Lake & Palmer. It's all that sort of chording. Not TOO hard and VERY sweet! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Location Location Location | This is a timely topic for me. I've got what seems to be an inflamed tendon on the top of my left wrist and forearm. Barre chords cause it to get worse. Either I look for new ways to do barres or stop playing for a month There's a cool book with some great voicings. It's 'Open-String Guitar Chords' by Tom Principato. There are tons of voices up and down the neck for each chord. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | I'll toss in the idea of using a "cut" or partial capo. Less fingering required. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | I use one occasionally. I made it myself from an old Kyser. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 3410
Location: GA USA | I bought the book Brooklyn mentioned on Amazon this morning. They still show that there is one available, new for $14.00, but I think that's the one I bought. If so, there is a used one for around $20, and then they jump to $30 and skyrocket from there. |
|
| |
Inside Chords