|
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4042
Location: Utah | OK, so for the ignorant (me), what is wrong with Taylor? Is it quality for the $? Is it the sound for the $? Is it simpleton owners that bash O's? Or is it something else? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | There's a lot of wood-snobs out there who bash Ovation just because they think they should. If challenged they couldn't produce an rational argument that would stand up. You can't reason with that mentality.
With any make of guitar it's down to personal taste. There's nothing "wrong" with Taylor. They are one of the most succsesful guitar manufacturers around and their instruments are built to exceptionaly high standards with quality materials. They look great and play really nicely. I've just never heard or played a Taylor that sounded good enough for me to want to own one. Except for the Big Baby which is the best thing they make by far, if we're talking price/performace ratio |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | I own one. It "spoke" to me at the time I bought it. It still does,but, have become very fond of the Ovation tone. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | What Temp said, but I'd add that they are too much money for what you get. A $2500 Taylor is a nice guitar that I wouldn't pay more than $1200 for.
To my ear, they sound thin..... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2006
Posts: 4226
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | I like Taylors quite a lot. As many here know already, I used to own a Taylor 714-ce (Rosewood and cedar) that had a marvelous, mellow tone. I played it for over five years and sold it for about $100 less than I paid for it. You can't say they don't hold their value. Now though, I would have to be MUCH better off to justify paying for the models I like.
Still, I particularly enjoy picking up their 912-ce and the sunburst T-5 standard at the local shop and puttering around when I can. The playability of these instruments couldn't be any smoother.
The cool thing is, I took the money from that sale and purchased my 2001 Collector's with PLENTY of $$$ to spare. I then started buying/selling/trading. Over time, and with a fair slice of patience, I've managed to build my modest collection without putting any financial pressure on the family fund. It's been a great run, but it may be coming to a close soon. (I've been getting the "That's enough!" look from SWMBO.)  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2008
Posts: 31
Location: alabama | I agree that the only answer to this is really just personal preference. For many moons, Taylor was the only guitar I would play - until I got my Elite.
And as far as a "wood" guitar, it's the only one I will play. And it's all a combination of things. The sound, the feel, the playability. But again, it's all jus preference. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2009
Posts: 715
| Well, I tried a Taylor Big Baby not so long ago and was very disappointed. The guitar felt like plastic and sounded very tinny.
However, I did see a gal at an open mike that had a Taylor that sounded great. I don't know what model she had, but it wasn't a Big Baby.
I am finding that you can't really judge a guitar company based on the one guitar that you try from them. FWIW, John Denver played some Taylors that a great tone to them. Each company (even Martin) has it's stinkers, although I've yet to play an Ovation that was a true stinker.
I've tried a deep bowl Applause and a shallow bowl Celebrity that I really liked, but didn't buy them because I'm still shopping for guitars.
Michelle |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2008
Posts: 489
| Well, I own several makes, I always play plugged in, and they all sound just fine. It's just a matter of what I'm in the mood for that particular day. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Something I've noticed and I'm sure many here have is that just about every guitar from each model from every major manufacturer of "wood" guitars sounds diferent. I remember I played 4 Taylor 310CE and the one I bought,atleast to my ear had the best tone which was different from the others.
Now after saying that I believe Ovation models have the most consistency within each model tone wise of ANY guitars that have Wood tops. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I am another who was never impressed by Taylors. A good friend of mine bought one some twenty years ago, and I was flabergasted that he spent so much money for it. It didn't sound special at all to me. I have tried many Taylors since then and I still can't see what all the fuss is about. They just don't "ring". Some of them have a nice bass, but the mids and trebles sound "dry" to me. If I were going to spend that kind of money on a wood box, it would be a jumbo Gibson, or a vintage Martin. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | I`ve owned a bunch of Taylors and like any other guitar makers i`ve had a few that were duds. I`ve see the same thing with Martin, Ovation and alot with Gibson. Heck i`ve never played a Mcperson that did anything for me but look what they are going for. And i`ve only played one Goodall that had any life in it. The last few Taylors i owned were great guitars (dave can tell you about one of them) I have a 314CE with a 17/8 nut right now that sounds a lot like a good D18, and i`ve had some good d18s. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575
Location: big island | aloha guitarzannie,
are you sure it was a "big" baby taylor you played and not the "baby"? having owned several taylors over the years, i only held on to the "big baby" model. as paul said, amazing value for the money. i prefer guitars and strings that sound warm. i've yet to play a warm sounding taylor and that includes their jumbo models. obviously, taylor is very successful and their guitars bring pleasure to millions of people. nuthin' wrong with that! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | I don't think I've ever played a bad Larivee, Breedlove, or Guild. When you get above about $3000, you start going into Collings, Santa Cruz, and other guitars like that. They all seem wonderful.
Except for the Baby and Big Baby's, I've never played a Taylor that spoke to me.
Michelle, you need to try some American made Ovations. Huge improvement over the overseas models, and if you buy used and smart, not that much more money..... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | I can`t get past the crapy frets on Larrivees. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1555
Location: Indiana | While the workmanship is beautiful, I don't care for Larrivees. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12754
Location: Boise, Idaho | I have nothing against Taylor. I'm just cheap. I want a lot for my money. I also don't typically follow the crowds. If anything, popularity is a negative for me.
Those are two of my characteristics that don't fit well with Taylors. The thing I like about them, and I've said this before, is that I can have 5 used Ovations with different necks, soundboards and sounds for the price of a new Taylor. SWMBO noticed that when a friend said he finally got a new guitar after 30 years and it was a Taylor. The 5 ovations I had at the time didn't cost as much and 2 sounded better, one was a nylon string and the 99 Collector looked better. I had to thank Taylor for that. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2005
Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | I agree with you Mark, but I wouldn't characterize you as cheap. I would say that you have a great understanding of value. In my opinion, in a dollar-for-dollar for guitar comparison, Taylors are not worth what people pay for them new. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I've played some nice taylors, but they lack soul. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm with bvince..
It's not that they don't make some nice guitars.
There are people that buy guitars soley based on tone, or name on the headstock, or whatever. If they can afford it, and that's their preference, so be it, good for them.
I, like many Ovation owners, look at a guitar not only for tone, playability, but bank for buck, how long it's going to last etc etc.. Total cost of ownership. We weigh all the factors.
There are a lot of companies that make nice guitars, for a lot less $'s than a Taylor. So, when I look at a $3000 Taylor, maybe it is even better than it's $2000 counterpart of a another brand... but is it really $1000 better?
I am more familiar with Electrics.. PRS makes some great guitars. But why pay for a PRS when you can have a Huber, Hamer, Carvin, or even a hand-made MCS for the same or less. If someone gave me a PRS, I'd play it. It's a fine guitar. But I'd likely sell it and have Hamer build a custom for me and use the spare change to go up to CT and pick out the wood and get some guidance for it's configuration.
Others given a PRS, would cherish it for life. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I own 4 Taylor's: among the 30 guitars I own at the moment...
Two of mine are 1998 models which were pre/neck joinery...one is a Custom made 615 with Presentation Brazilian Rosewood back and sides: it is an amazing guitar...the other is a W-65 12 string w/top, back and sides made of highly figured Claro Walnut; it sounds like a Steinway Grand Piano: an awesome 12 string...
Several years ago I bought a new 810 Fall Limited with back and sides of Madagascar Rosewood...I use it in Worship nearly every Sunday...the expression system is incredible IF you know how to use it...I have heard several people who had no clue how to use it and therefore the plugged in sound of their Taylor's sounded awful...
I also have a Baby Taylor that I took to the Soviet Union in 2001 on my last Mission trip there...on four earlier trips I took Ovation Elites...before the restriction on carry on baggage and overhead size...you should have seen the Soviet airport guards in the early 90's when they saw those...I had to play a few songs right there in the Airport...lol
In addition to these fine guitars I also own 15 Ovation and Adamas guitars some of which are the top of the line and others are models I have personally played for most of my professional career...Several of the Adamas guitars cost me more than I paid for any of the Taylor Guitars...
I also own two fine Martin guitars including a 1948 D-28. 'Nuff said there...
I have several Fenders, a one off Gibson Les Paul Custom and several other vintage makes and arch tops....
My point here is all of this disclosure is not to get anyone to buy any of these guitars or Brands that I own simply because I say so or I own them...Actually, I could not care less...to each their own...
BUT, I am so sick of hearing "guitarists" put down other "guitarists" just because of the brand of guitar they own or choose...give me a break (or not...I really don't care)...
Why not just be happy for others on their choices even if it’s not what you might choose? Sure there are some guitars that don't appeal to me: I may say so but always recognize the right of others to play whatever they wish....
It makes the one putting down the other guitars look bad, and that makes all of us look bad...
Do the other forums do it? Yes, of course they do...but why respond in kind? It only makes our forum the same as them...and personally, I think we are better than that....
So, play what you can afford and enjoy it...be proud of it and make it your own...let the naysayer’s make themselves look small and of course stick up for what you like...but can't it be done in a non-invasive way and manner?
When I got started I played a Kent electric and a Sears Silvertone amp: Cheap stuff...but I wish I had them today...just for what they started in me...I had to sell what I had to get what I wanted...(sometimes I still do...lol)
Life is short: play what you want! IMHO/YMMV
BTW: this is not intended at anu individual previous poster...just an overall appeal to do the right thing...and think of others.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 1555
Location: Indiana | Shame you have such a sparse collection Mike. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I am fortunate...and my wife is a saint! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4042
Location: Utah | What about Taylor's in the $800 - $1000 range. That is where many of the USA O's can be found. Is a new $1k Taylor comparable to say a $1k Breedlove, Guild, Ovation, etc? I think that many who buy Taylor guitars are in that middle dollar range that is above beginner but below extravagant. Comparing a $3k Taylor to a $1k anything isn't fair. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | I've just never heard or played a Taylor that sounded good enough for me to want to own one.
What Temp said. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by FlySig:
What about Taylor's in the $800 - $1000 range. That is where many of the USA O's can be found. Is a new $1k Taylor comparable to say a $1k Breedlove, Guild, Ovation, etc? I think that many who buy Taylor guitars are in that middle dollar range that is above beginner but below extravagant. Comparing a $3k Taylor to a $1k anything isn't fair. I've never heard a Taylor in that range that I thought was worth the money.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I have to admit, I have never played one of the lower line myself...I also understand what Allison said about them sounding stiff or dry...I think woods have a lot to do with that...I think you'll find that across the board with most makes...some Ovations just don't have a stellar sound but to my ear many do...again it all boils down to what floats your boat...for me, it's nice to have a pallet of fine tools... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2009
Posts: 715
| Aloha Lanaki!
I'm pretty sure that it was a Big Baby that I tried. At least that is what I remember. It was definitely a Taylor and I was definitely surprised that the sound wasn't that great. Neither was the low end Martin, which was on sale for $1,000.00.
Michelle |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | MusicMishka said "BUT, I am so sick of hearing "guitarists" put down other "guitarists" just because of the brand of guitar they own or choose...give me a break (or not...I really don't care)...
Well said Mike!!! +1!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2009
Posts: 4535
Location: Flahdaw | Of course, Taylor is the cover story of current month's Acoustic Guitar magazine. The message seems to be that, due to superior technology in the manufacturing process, that they can sell a better guitar for less money than anyone else.? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | It's Acoustic Guitar...I'd expect that from them...but talk to anyone who played 6-7 nights per week for years on end (like me) and ask them which guitars they relyed on...My answer would be Ovation...night after night they kept on singing and sounding great...
Yes, Taylor has great technology: mine are truly nice guitars...but better for less than anyone? Hmmm, I just can't quite go there...I have some wonderful vintage Ovations that sound just great...Right now, IMHO, Ovations (vintage ones) can be the most cost effective and best sounding purchase one can make... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | I have owned a baby and a,710,710CE,714,614CE,610,410,710L9,415CE,314CE and am sure i`m leaving a couple out. I tend to like the 3 and 4 series about as well as the higher end ones. You can find 710 and 714s going for about what a used D28 martin would cost.You can get a used 310CE today over at the AGF for around $750.00. I traded my 614CE even at MS music for a brand new Martin 12 fret D18VS sunburst. That will give you am idea of what a store thinks of the Taylor resale. BTW i only gave $1300.00 for the 614CE mint but used. You can find deals on Taylors just like you can any other guitar out there. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2009
Posts: 194
Location: Huntington Beach | I have owned Gibsons, Guilds, Fenders and Taylors - I just bought another Ovation. They just seam to fit ergonomically and sonically. I have played 3 Taylors that I would buy, and one that I did - 1998 k22 all Koa - I think one of the finest Taylors of all time. Black Doyle Dykes, and an 814ce. Will a high end clunker of today age into a fine relic in the future. I don't know. But all my faves have been used instruments except for the 1617 that I bought new and still have. Play on. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Really not fair to lump all guitars of a single brand into one statement like "Taylor sucks, Ovation sucks, Martin sucks etc." There are lemons and there are cherries in pretty much any major guitar line. So better off to speak of specific models, then just generic brand names. If I was going to buy a Taylor, it would definately be the Big Baby. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2009
Posts: 262
Location: VENISE-EN-QUEBEC CANADA | Here's my 2 cent's
Here in Montreal whe have a musique store call
steve's musique(now remember im not a pro player)
but my hear is very good, at that store I tried the same day a Gibson J185 a seagull and a Taylor, then the sale's personne ask me if I new about a guitar made near Montreal call Boucher(google boucherguitare)to no more about this guitar.this guitar amaze me it's the only guitar Ive playe'd with medium that fealt like extra light the sound unplug was AWWWWWWmazing.and plug in well more amazing it add a 2 pre-amp
set-up wich sounde'd so sweet. but it's a 2795.00$ guitar to expensive for me. and it's hand made very low production the one i tries was# 182 but like i said an awsome guitar.I now owned a Ovation Elite 1778LX play's very well look's awsome and sound's great. for me I don't need a mega $$$$ guitar my Ovation suite's me find. and im going to buy a vintage Legend when i find one.
so there you GO taylor fan's
Daniel
:D :D |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Really not fair to lump all guitars of a single brand into one statement like "Taylor sucks, Ovation sucks, Martin sucks etc." There are lemons and there are cherries in pretty much any major guitar line. So better off to speak of specific models, then just generic brand names. If I was going to buy a Taylor, it would definately be the Big Baby. Taylor's suck.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Really not fair to lump all guitars of a single brand into one statement like "Taylor sucks, Ovation sucks, Martin sucks etc." There are lemons and there are cherries in pretty much any major guitar line. So better off to speak of specific models, then just generic brand names. If I was going to buy a Taylor, it would definately be the Big Baby. Taylor's suck....
:rolleyes: ;) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Michigan | Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
Aloha Lanaki!
I'm pretty sure that it was a Big Baby that I tried. At least that is what I remember. It was definitely a Taylor and I was definitely surprised that the sound wasn't that great. Neither was the low end Martin, which was on sale for $1,000.00.
Michelle Michelle,
If you get a chance pick up a Blueridge BR-40 or BR-43. They have the same laminate bodies as the bottome Taylor but I am much more impressed with the sound and action of the Blueridge. And... at under $400.00 you can buy two! I can't afford thousands of dollars for a guitar but if I had a grand to spend on a wood guitar it would be the Blueridge and I would pocket the rest. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | OK! I've tried to be Patient, But I have waited long Enough!
 
[I'm Sorry... I'm just like a kid who finds a spray-paint can. Eventually I've gotta use it! :D ] |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4042
Location: Utah | Originally posted by flag72:
but it's a 2795.00$ guitar to expensive for me. and it's hand made very low production the one i tries was# 182 but like i said an awsome guitar.I now owned a Ovation Elite 1778LX play's very well look's awsome and sound's great. That's the issue. Any guitar of any brand that costs more than $2000 should be a very nice guitar. It should sound great, and be a joy to play. It should also have very nice materials and excellent quality build.
But down in the more affordable range for the average Joe, maybe around $1000, that is where a larger number of buyers are. I do see a lot of Taylors out there in the hands of amateurs who are playing acoustic shows or play in church bands.
I do think that Ovation offers a superior product in this price range. But a lot of people like Taylor guitars in that range. It's interesting to hear what people here think of them. Generally it seems that people find them overpriced for what they offer. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4827
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Who care's what critics say? By definition they'll never say anything nice, that isn't the modern concept of criticism!
I've only met/seen one Taylor so far and it didn't float my boat. But that could have been the player.
Here, I think we mainly beat on Taylors just for fun. (with one or two special exceptions.) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 1609
Location: Colorado | I'm with Mishka...for those who played night and day after night and day - we needed instruments that sounded nice - stayed in tune and held up...for years and years ovation was the only real player at that...others have gotten a lot better in the mobile acoustic market - and some sound very good...I used a slothead and pacemaker mostly for years...but then a Kotke 12 caught my ear - and I added it to arsenal - for notes - I use the Kotke 12 - for strums I use the pacemaker...I use the slothead for grins. Sorry we're both not at Amelia this year Mike...maybe next time. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I owned a Taylor DDSM that was absolutely the cats ass so far as Taylors go. I never heard or played one that I thought was better.
It sat in the case 99% of the time because I liked almost every other guitar in my house better.
I recently sold it because it NEVER got played. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 3111
Location: Nashville TN. | Taylors can be nice guitars but to my ear they bland
sounding and way over priced.
I was was at AA kinda open mic.
(not an addict myself but go from time to time
with people I know in recovery)
Some guy showed up this a dead battery in his guitar
I let him barrow my T-Bolt.
So I heard
Martin HD-28 w/fishman
My Thunderbolt OP-24
Taylor 900 with Exppression system.
In terms of plugged in sound.
It was pickem they all sounded great.
I paid $898.95 for the TBolt new in 1989.
In all honestly I was actually disappointed in HD-28 It sounded no different than D-28 plugged in. (I own D-28 w fishman)
The Taylor was way too much money at close to 4 grand.
People were oooin and owwin over the Taylor
before hearing it plugged in.
The same people were oooin and owwin about the T-bolt,
after the guitars playing back to back.
There were 3 other Ovations there but they were Celbs.
btw
2 weeks ago on SNL Ray Lamontagne learned a rough lesson. Starts playing his Martin and NO sounds other than slight bleed through on the first performance.
OK we know that is bad cable or dead battery.
The next performance came up and the guitar was mic'ed. (so it was dead battery)
Obviously by the time the checked it and decided there was not enough time to get the strings off change the battery and retune in time.
Unfortunately he moves alot while playing and
the secound performance wasn't great either.
Sound was fading in and out as he moved.
In newer Ovation that would not have been an issue.
I actually felt bad for him.
I had that happen with my Martin too. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2005
Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | "I think we mainly beat on Taylors just for fun. (with one or two special exceptions.)" ...
Yeah mostly for fun. As has been mentioned above, There are a lot of good guitars out there from lots of different manufacturers. I was even slightly impressed after playing a few of the new "made in china" Guilds at a local Marshall Music Store.
But I must also confess that after spending an EnTIRE day at Elderly Musical Instruments in Lansing, playing about EVERY kind of "high-end" Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Breedlove, Laravee,Tak or what ever I can't remember now, I couldn't wait to get back home to my Adamas/Ovations. They truly outplayed and outsounded every other instrument I had had my hands on. And I'm not overstating anything. I must have played 50+ guitars, with some having price tags in the $20-30,000+ price range. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am EXTREMELY happy with what I have. The experience just reaffirmed that. (not to say there aren't some other O's and A's on my wish list) (: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4042
Location: Utah | Originally posted by bvince:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am EXTREMELY happy with what I have. The experience just reaffirmed that. (not to say there aren't some other O's and A's on my wish list) (: Sometimes I feel like trailer trash around here. People have all kinds of very expensive Adamas limited edition this, rare ancient wood that. But my wood topped 2007 BCS from Al (at a bargain price) gives me that crazy smile every time I pick it up. Yeah, I love my Ovation. It meets all of my needs and more.
Sara (my 16 yr old) headlined (yay!) a show with her 1778T Red Flame. Her former band mate also played a set on her 1778LX. Those guitars sounded like a million bucks through the PA. Another performer played something I didn't recognize, and another played a Taylor. The two wood boxes sounded OK, but not alive and not full.
Maybe if I was made of money I would own lots of different guitars and would learn to appreciate all of their unique characters. Until I win the lottery, I will continue pickin' and grinnin' with the wood topped O. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2005
Posts: 3618
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Absolutely nothing wrong with Ovation wood tops, especially that 2007BCS! I'd put mine up against the best of those square-backs. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by FlySig:
Sometimes I feel like trailer trash around here. +1 :p :cool: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by FlySig:
Sometimes I feel like trailer trash around here. AH! SO IT's YOU !!!! Good one. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 396
| Whenever I'm in a serious buying mood, I give everything a shot. Taylors always looks great, play great, and sound to me ... like they are 200-500 overpriced. I'll always give Taylors a shot, but I haven't found that Taylor yet that makes me want to shell out the cash. Maybe next time.
I'm still loving my last buy, a Martin om-21. an excellent guitar all the way around at a very competitve price. |
|
| |
The "Critics" say THIS about Taylor...