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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I could just ask Woody or Seesquare or a few of you other more mechanically inclined members...
But I figured everybody can use the information I am seeking. So...
I just bought an OP-11 Preamp... [Yeah... But it was cheap!]
I am gonna put it into my Celebrity TC12 Trekker, I hope!
Put This -- V ..... Into this -- >
 
So! What I really need to know is what is the best thing to cut the bowl with?
I have a cheap pseudo-dremel tool and drills and such. I am looking for advice on cutting the bowl. What to do... What not to do... Y'know?
So share some of the BFLG Wisdom, Please! :D |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | start small, and take your time. I just asked a question on another post about whether the new iDea preamp (which supposedly comes with a template) fits the same hole as the Op Pro and VIP can. It would definitely help on an install if a template was available. I did think about the idead of positioning the can on the inside, where the hole will be, with a small piece of paper under it, and try to trace around it for a template. Just a thought. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | If you still plan on buying an iDea module... Yes, it has a template. I have one.
The iDea also fits in the same hole as an OP-Pro, OP-Studio, any of them with the oval hole...
With the iDea comes a foam gasket to go around the rim of the can, in the center of that gasket is a piece of foam the shape of the inside of the gasket... A template.
I will wait until I receive the OP-11 just to be sure that the can is the same size (I'm sure it is)... I just got it on evilBay, so I will wait until I have checked it out before I cut anything.
But yes, the iDea has a template. |
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Location: Long Island | just a thought but after you have your template you may be able to cut the hole with a hot blade
i have not tried this but i do use a utility
knife and heat gun to cut many types of plastic . |
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Location: Texas | OMA, in another thread, I mentioned that I am considering doing a similar project. (I want to add an iDea preamp and a pickup to an old acoustic-only Legend.) I have a Dremel, so I figured I'd start small and slowly expand the opening for the can.
Although footprints' suggestion to try a heated blade is a possibility, for me personally, that could quickly lead to disaster. I might end up with a "Guitar of Fire" without Dobrov's talent. ;)
Does that trekker already have electronics? If not, you'll need to get a pickup and 1/4" guitar jack, plus wire and connector to plug it into the can, right?
I'm trying to figure out my parts list and source for those parts before I get too carried away. I'm wondering if it is possible to buy an OEM pickup from Ovation, or are they something that are readily available anywhere? Either way, I'd like to find a pickup that is comparable to what Ovation uses in the current Legends, for example.
BTW, in that other thread, MWoody posted a link to his similar project photos (on a Pacemaker):
Pacemaker Repair
I think it will be a fun project and hopefully will result in a nice "modernized" old O…
…or I will have to send the whole mess to mother and pay them to put Humpty together again. ;)
Keep us posted on your progress OMA. |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Once the hole is started, I found the best way to cut was with one of the Dremel sanding attachments. Instead of cutting, you're shaping. You can take your time and it's much easier to get the curve right.
As far as I'm concerned, the template that came with the iDea is useless because it's flexible.
I made a clay template off of a guitar that already had the opening. Once the clay hardened, you can move it over to the guitar you want to cut, lay the template in place (it only goes in one place), trace the opening and start cutting/sanding.
Worked perfectly for me. |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | This is what I used for a template:
As I've said, the can only fits perfectly in exactly ONE location without gaps. This was the only way I could think of to locate the hole in the correct position. It worked just fine. I've done it on two guitars so far. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | If that pink donut is hard enough, it might would like a US/World 'tour'! |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | or I will have to send the whole mess to mother and pay them to put Humpty together again. And take it from me, they can do a fine job of it: check out my reconstructed/resurected '77 Pacemaker on my ning site (link below) |
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Location: Texas | The clay template makes great sense. At first I thought it was overkill, until I realized that it must be positioned in exactly the right spot to match the curve of the body. Moving the hardened clay around until it sits just right in the curve of the bowl-top is an excellent idea! Thanks!
(note to self: add clay to parts list…) |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
If that pink donut is hard enough, it might would like a US/World 'tour'! I've made that offer in the past... unfortunately, it is no longer in existence :(
I can tell you that the kind of clay I used was "Air Hardening Modeling Clay". I'm sure I got it at a craft store like A.C. Moore.
And B.T.W. - it cleaned right off of the git I used for a model. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by CrimsonLake:
...unfortunately, it is no longer in existence :( Cuz I woulda paid shipping and returned it when I was done. :p
So the winning recommendation so far is 'drill a hole then sand/grind it bigger'.... |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | OH! So when drilling the hole, say, for the 1/4 inch jack... Or any hole...
Did y'all start-out with the bit going in reverse?
Cover the area with blue tape?
Any of them nifty tricks? |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Ummmm, let's see... I have a 2171 for a master pattern. Need some clay...
Give me a few days and I'll see what I can create. Maybe I can resurrect Mike's donut.
< master, clay, create, resurrect... Happy Easter! > |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | The clay template is an excellent shop tip. Add in the use of a 3/32" spiral router bit on the Dremel, cut 1/16" INSIDE the outline, then use the 1/2" sanding drum to open up the hole. Sand, fit, sand, fit, sand, fit........until its just right.
Not an acceptable place for Bondo, really. |
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Location: Texas | Firstly OMA, (or others) I'm working on a similar, but somewhat different, project, so please let me know if my comments and questions are breaking board etiquette and/or belong in a separate topic. I certainly don't want you to feel that I am stealing your thread Arthur, or taking it in the wrong direction, and I apologize if that is the case…
With that said and until I'm told otherwise:
Is the can positioned exactly the same distance from the the top regardless of the bowl depth?
I bought a couple different kinds of modeling clay today to experiment with… If I successfully create a template, I'll send it on to whoever wants it (after I have cut the hole, of course…) I also tried to find a pickup at several retail guitar shops locally… no dice.
However, I'm not cutting any holes until I have all the parts I need, so the search goes on. Since my objective is to put an iDea preamp into an acoustic Legend, maybe buying an iDea guitar and yanking the electronics (then patching the bowl) is not that crazy of a concept? Anyone ever tried to strip the electronics out of an iDea guitar? Is anything glued in place or difficult to remove? Would any of you iDea guitar owners be willing to look around inside to see if everything looks removable? I suppose there is a possibility that the pickup is glued in place under the saddle, but that seems unlikely.
Going that route would also make the bold assumption that the saddles are the same size, so that the pickup would fit correctly in the old O, which may not be the case… anyone know if/how many/what-size saddles Ovation uses? Are there a lot of possibilities?
But, if it did work, by the time you buy an iDea kit and a good pickup and a few other parts, it would be like getting a grey acoustic guitar (with some bonus holes) for $150 or so…
… I'm not sure I would really want to do that, I'm kind-of brainstorming while typing, but I definitely think converting an old acoustic to an A/E would be a fun project…
…on the other hand, I think I hear mother calling… |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Ummm... yeah... the bridge was the other part of the story that I don't like to talk about. I absolutely butchered that part of it. I tried to route out the saddle hole to fit the larger saddle. It wasn't pretty. If you could find a thin saddle with a pickup, that'd be the way to go. |
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Location: Utah | Standing, if the modeling clay doesn't work, you could try using a piece of sheet aluminum. It is easy to cut and easy to bend, and would also travel safely in a small box through the mail.
As to the iDea guitar. Well, if it were me, I'd just call Al and buy an iDea kit. They come with everything you need. You could also get the correct saddle and pickup from him. If you want an aftermarket pickup, there are several choices. I'd start at StewMac or Elderly.
The can attaches to the guitar with a clamp. There are two screws that each tighten a little wing against the inside of the bowl. So the can just drops in and you tighten the screws. To take the can out, just loosen the screws (it takes 30 or more turns of the screw to fully retract the wings) and pull the can out.
The Ovation pickups that go under the wide saddle are glued to the saddle. So you'd have to buy a saddle/pickup unit from Ovation. Or, you could buy an aftermarket drop-in pickup. You may have to shave something down to get the saddle height correct.
There are wide saddles with pickups, which are the "original" patented pickup. Those are what they use for the modern LX and T guitars. The thinline is a thin saddle that they used for a while. |
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Location: Texas | FlySig,
Thank you, that is useful information.
Sometimes some of this stuff is probably blatantly obvious to those of you more experienced OFC'ers, but can be daunting when starting out on the first such project. I have searched the archives, but discussions sometimes start with an assumption of basic knowledge that I lack at this point, and therefore old threads are not always clear to someone wanting to get more into this type of project.
(In the past, I rarely went beyond changing strings and basic maintenance without taking my guitars to a luthier.)
Anyway, here's my supplies list so far:
- Modeling Clay or Sheet Aluminum ;)
- ironing board ;)
- iDea preamp kit (will be ordered from Al ;) )
- Ovation pickup/saddle of correct size to fit existing bridge without major modification (beyond drilling hole for wire)
- 1/4" "guitar" jack (can you get these pre-wired with the plug/jack that connects it to the pre-amp?)
- wire, jack and solder if answer to above is no.
- assorted grit sandpaper
- 9 volt battery… ;)
- the guitar, of course…
- time and patience
Basic Tools: Drill/Dremel/soldering iron/screwdriver/pliers/wrenches/utility knife, etc.
…am I missing anything obvious, (other than a box and the address to ship it to mother after I butcher it… ;) )
Thanks! |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by FlySig:
The Ovation pickups that go under the wide saddle are glued to the saddle. So you'd have to buy a saddle/pickup unit from Ovation. Or, you could buy an aftermarket drop-in pickup. You may have to shave something down to get the saddle height correct. Does that mean that any shims, if needed, would go UNDER the pickup?
(Another dumb question, but I have never pulled a shim on an A/E…) |
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Location: Utah | Yes, shims go under the pickup. The pickup is glued to the bottom of the saddle, so it is one integral unit. If you already have shims in there, taking one or two out would likely do the trick.
BTW, the preamp kit comes with the output jack and wiring harness to go to the can. All you need to add is the pickup assembly. Someone posted a picture of their kit and it had a pickup and wiring in the picture, so ask Al if the kit includes the saddle/pickup.
…am I missing anything obvious, (other than a box and the address to ship it to mother after I butcher it… [Wink] ) A cold beer or a glass of wine! |
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Location: Texas | BTW, the preamp kit comes with the output jack and wiring harness to go to the can. All you need to add is the pickup assembly. Someone posted a picture of their kit and it had a pickup and wiring in the picture, so ask Al if the kit includes the saddle/pickup. I don't think that the iDea kit includes the output wiring and 1/4" jack, nor a pickup. I think it is assumed that you already have an A/E guitar and those parts are already installed. My understanding is that you can drop the iDea pre-amp directly into the existing can of any Ovation/Adamas with any of these: OP10, OP-20, OP-30, OP-40, OP-50, OP-Pro, OP-Studio or OP-VIP5. I think they only provide the replacement can in case you want to use the "aux input" feature, which would require you to drill an extra hole in the bowl (for the input jack) near the existing 1/4" output.
According to the "iDea for Dummies" site:
The iDEA pre-amp comes boxed with everything you need to install it as a direct replacement into your OP equipped Ovation guitar: OPi-1 pre-amp, mounting hardware, 9V battery, USB cable, ear-bud type headphones, 1/8 inch aux jack assembly, Installation Instructions and Quick Start guide. OMA, you already have your kit, right? Can you confirm the contents. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by standing:
I don't think that the iDea kit includes the output wiring and 1/4" jack, nor a pickup. You are correct.
There is an AUX IN 1/8" plug/cable assembly included, but no preamp/1/4" hardware. |
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Location: Utah | The pin spacing and geometry for the electrical connector is not the same in all the cans. For example, the Op30 can has a different connector in the bottom than the OpPro, OpPro Studio, and VIP. The can is externally the same dimensions, and the preamps will fit in, but the electrical connections are different. So you need to be sure you have a compatible can in the guitar.
My OpPro Studio kit came with the can, the preamp, and the wiring harness and output jack assemblies. All that was missing was the pickup. |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by FlySig:
The pin spacing and geometry for the electrical connector is not the same in all the cans. FlySig; thank you, thank you, thank you!
That was not clear to me before…
I was thinking that the iDea Pre-amp would be useful to just occasionally drop into any "compatible" O/A can when I wanted to fiddle with it. But, what you are saying indicates that it is not quite that "portable," since it will only work in an iDea can? I'm really glad you pointed that out, I was going on a false assumption…
I was hoping to swap it around among several guitars whenever the whim moved me, but not if I have to change cans every time…
With all due respect and kudos to Ovation; the iDea preamp IS a very clever gadget, but if you really like your current pre-amp or have several guitars that you want to use those features with, it might be easier (and possibly cheaper) to get one of those little Boss boxes separately, you can plug anything into those and I think they provide similar functionality and more, with the only drawback being that it is an extra box, rather than built-in, so it's not quite as handy as having it right there in front of your eyes on top of the guitar… (but there's always duct tape… ;) )
I will need to rethink which pre-amp I want to use… although the iDea still has a lot of appeal, one of my strongest reasons for choosing it (flexibility with multiple guitars) was invalid… but the good news is that I now have all the other Ovation pre-amps to consider and keep an eye out for… ;)
Membership in the OFC is sure worth the monthly dues I send to OMA… ;) I hope he doesn't raise my fees for totally hijacking his thread… (but someone had to keep this topic going while he's off drilling holes in his guitar… ;) ) |
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Location: Utah | I believe that the iDea pinout is the same as OpPro, OpPro Studio, and VIP. So it should drop right into those cans. The Op30 is definitely different than the OpPro. Though it drops in, I don't want to turn it on and fry something!
As far as swapping cans, it is super simple. The process only takes about 1 minute once you've gathered up the required philips screwdriver. Just unscrew the two clamp screws, gently pull the can out, and unplug the two wires (pickup and output jack). Plug both wires into replacement can, then put the can in the guitar and gently tighten the clamps. Done.
The iDeafordummies site says that it drops into all the cans, including OP30. Can anyone verify that the connector is safe and functional between these different cans? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Do Not drop and iDea into the OP-30! I am almost positive... Aw, I'll go look! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I am positive that the OP-30 has six contacts and the OP-Pro, VIP and iDea have eight.
I don't know if you would fry something by trying to plug one into the other,
But is it worth a few hunnert bucks to find-out?
The iDea drops into the VIP and works... in case anybody wondered! :p |
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Location: Utah | Op30 connector:
OpPro Studio (same as OpPro and VIP) connector:
Op30 next to OpPro Studio:
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Location: Texas | Well, that's really good news…
The cans in the guitars that I want to swap pre-amps around with are an OP-Pro and a VIP-5. I'll look at the connectors to be sure they are the same. Hmmmm, I guess the iDea Pre-amp (and can) must have an extra connector somewhere for the "aux line in" which simply remains unconnected, and therefore bypassed, if just the iDea Pre-amp is dropped into an OpPro, OpPro Studio, or VIP can…
Now, just to confuse things, is there any reason whey you can't go the other way… for example, drop an OP-Pro pre-amp into an iDea can?
Regardless, it seems I'm back on track, thanks!!! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Read carefully... Cuz I don't know how well this applies:
I have the iDea module, and it spends most of it's life in the box it came in.
I switch it out with an OP-Pro to use it... (I have not installed the can in any guitar)
The first time I did this I figured that I would put the OP-Pro in the iDea can for storage...
When I did that the OP-Pro lit-up like it was being plugged-in!
Then the little red-lite on the OP-Pro flashes about once every two-or-three seconds.
This leads me to believe that the wiring in the iDea can is somehow different.
I don't know how or why, but it ain't the same. |
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Location: Texas | OMA,
That's curious. I am much more interested in being able to swap the iDea into another can than putting an OP-Pro into the frankenlegend I am considering creating anyway…
Have you cut any holes yet? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I ain't cutting anything yet... Not til I get the Preamp and I am sure that it works.
I also gotta run down to Home Depot and get some of them 'drill bits' that go into a Dremel and cut in all directions.
I KNOW that I have some in my tools from work! And I am sure that I will find them...
Right after I buy some new ones! :mad:
'Bout the same way as when I had to buy crazy-glue...
Then I found all my old crazy-glue as soon as I was putting the new tubes away. :rolleyes:
But like I said, for drop-in the idea works with any OP-Pro or newer. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | So... I basically destroyed my Trekker! :mad:
It will still work, but I discovered that the undersaddle pick-up don't work. I swapped the OP-11 with my OP-30 both ways. So the preamp works, the can works, the plug works, so the preamp don't work.
I just bought an Artec and I will give that a shot when it comes.
It looks really great in those photos...
Photos of the Real Distruction are here... |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | You're a brave man OMA! |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Self Edit-- Not really 'Brave'... Alittle foolhardy maybe... |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | I consider removing shims or changing tuner buttons a major operation. |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Nervewracking... isn't it?
I swap out the iDea and the OpPro on a regular basis on the '05 collectors without any problems. |
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Location: Texas | OMA, congratulations on cutting holes in your guitar! ;) (There's a sentence you don't hear very often…)
I wouldn't say that you "destroyed" it by a long-shot. It just needs a little trouble-shooting… In fact, it looks to me like you got the can to sit in there nicely, it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but it looks like you were able to get it to sit snug without gaps?
Did you use the "clay" trick or did you just go with the paper template?
I'm a little confused by what is not working… Have you determined that it is the pickup or the preamp (or both) that are causing the problem? Does anything happen? (buzzing, lights, animal calls, anything?)
Where did you obtain the 1/4" jack? Were you able to find one pre-wired to just plug into the output connector on the can, or did you have to solder it together?
You are officially ahead of me on your project, so I can't offer too much advice, but I'm sure the real BFLG folks might have some suggestions for diagnosing the pickup problem… (thanks for blazing the trail, though ;) )
If it were me, I'd first make sure that I had not cross-connected any wires, and I'd recheck all the other real obvious stuff, too, like, did you use a fresh battery in the preamp? Those are the kinds of things that can drive you crazy because they are so obvious that you just KNOW they are ok… until they're not. ;)
You bought the preamp and pickup off of EBay, right? I'm sure there is some simple way to test them externally (from the guitar) just to verify that they are functional, but, again, I'm a novice at this stuff.
As for my similar project… the guitar arrived yesterday, and she sounds purty… I may have to rethink cutting into her… or find yet another one, you can never have too many, right? Anyway, that belongs in another thread, so I will try to take some photos and post them and start a freah topic on that later…
Good Luck, |
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Location: Texas | OMA, congratulations on cutting holes in your guitar! (Now, there's a sentence you don't hear very often…)
I wouldn't say that you "destroyed" it by a long-shot. It just needs a little trouble-shooting… In fact, it looks to me like you got the can to sit in there nicely, it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but it looks like you were able to get it to sit snug without gaps? That would seem to be the most nerve-wracking part of the project…
questions, questions:
Did you use the "clay" trick or did you just go with a paper/masking tape template?
OK, I just reread your revised message, and I see that you have narrowed the problem down to the pickup. Were the pickup and saddle all one unit or did put the pickup under the existing saddle? Did you have to remove shims to compensate for the added height from the pickup being under the saddle?
Where did you obtain the 1/4" jack? Were you able to find one pre-wired to just plug into the output connector on the can, or did you have to solder it together?
You are officially ahead of me on your project, so I can't offer too much advice, but I'm sure the real BFLG folks might have some suggestions for diagnosing the pickup problem… (thanks for blazing the trail, though ;) )
If it were me, I'd first make sure that I had not cross-connected any wires, and I'd recheck all the other real obvious stuff, too, like, did you use a fresh battery in the preamp? Those are the kinds of things that can drive you crazy because they are so obvious that you just KNOW they are ok… until they're not. ;)
You bought the preamp and pickup off of EBay, right? I wonder if there is a way to test a pickup in advance before going to the hassle of installing it? There must be some way, but, again, I'm a novice at this stuff.
As for my similar project… the guitar arrived yesterday, and she sounds purty… I may have to rethink cutting into her… or find yet another one, you can never have too many, right? Anyway, that belongs in another thread, so I will try to take some photos and post them and start a freah topic on that later…
Good Luck, |
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Location: Texas | Sorry about the double post, I must have hit "add reply" instead of "preview post" somewhere along the way… Is there a way to remove a post one you add it, or is that only available to the admins? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Well... The Electric Trekker now works. I put in an Artec undersaddle pickup. That fixed it.
If anyone is thinking about doing this I have to warn you that the big can sticking into the guitar body changes the tone noticeably. But I ain't gonna be using it for concerts. If I ever want Really good tone outside I have other O's. But it is portable and this was an educational project.
(I wouldn't have done it if it was my only guitar, or even a really Nice guitar. :p )
If I ever electrify another Trekker I will use a direct link to an endpin jack.
Standing... I don't know what guitars you have but an iDea will drop-in to an OP-Pro and VIP.
Maybe others, but I have no personal experience with that. |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Well... The Electric Trekker now works. I put in an Artec undersaddle pickup. That fixed it.
If anyone is thinking about doing this I have to warn you that the big can sticking into the guitar body changes the tone noticeably. But I ain't gonna be using it for concerts. If I ever want Really good tone outside I have other O's. But it is portable and this was an educational project.
(I wouldn't have done it if it was my only guitar, or even a really Nice guitar. :p )
If I ever electrify another Trekker I will use a direct link to an endpin jack.
Standing... I don't know what guitars you have but an iDea will drop-in to an OP-Pro and VIP.
Maybe others, but I have no personal experience with that. OMA. Interesting, but not surprising, that the addition of the large can alters the sound, I guess the bigger the bowl, the less if would be effected. I picked up an old Legend with the intention of adding a can/preamp/pickup, but the thing sounds so sweet, I may change my mind… ;)
Regardless, I already have both an OP-Pro and a VIP-equipped guitar, so the iDea should work in the existing cans.
Thanks! |
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BFLG Question ? - Bowl Cutting for Preamp Installation?