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Location: Newington, CT | Hi, All! I apologize in advance for what will certainly seem like a really ignorant post to some of you. Please remember, however, that I have played largely "in a vacuum" for some years -- playing by myself, usually only for the ears of my children or myself. So, when you have the urge to say, "Well, duuuuhhhh!" please remember where this is coming from.
Also, please remember that the following is really a distillation; a kind of composite story that serves to make a much longer story much shorter.
In the beginning of my guitar playing, I naturally gravitated toward chord progressions that featured some variation or variations on the Am-E-Dm-F group. The transition to and from any of these chords is very easy, and the sound is very Spanish, and they all work so easily together. Very minor, very melodious, very fun. Soloing was the same: minor, melodious and fun.
As a result of using these chords so much, when I DID play for others' ears, they would always remark on how "Spanish" I sounded.
However, one needs new stuff from time-to-time.
So, somewhat recently (within the last couple of years), I have been avoiding the "Am-E-Dm-F" stuff altogether. And, VERY recently (within the last couple of months) discovered the manifold and manifest joys to be found in D, Bm, F#, F#m and G, not to mention Eb and C#. and guess what: All of a sudden I'm playing Irish stuff! Just like that. When I say, "Spanish" and "Irish" I'm referring only to the "flavor" or "general sound" of the music. You know how you can hear a song for the first time and frequently tell from what part of the world it came? One more quick example: I was playing up around the 12th fret -- a D chord moved there, and the "flavor" of the resulting music was definitely Russian!
Well, EVERYTHING I play is being played for the first time!
When I start out with the Am-Dm stuff, I can end up putting out about an hour or so of Spanish-sounding stuff, and when I start in D or Bm, I then do the equivalent in Irish-sounding stuff!
Now, I think I know what you are going to say, and I know that what I think you are going to say is right, but it was a fun discovery to make all the same.
Here's what you were going to say (I think): The "shapes" of the scales involved, and the relative ease or difficulty in performing them led to the flavor of the music. I found that it was easier to put soloes together with the Am-Dm-E-F configurations then with any others, so, ipso facto. I became a Spanish-type player.
As time went on, and I became more facile with that kind of playing the time came to branch out to other chord formations, and the next chords I gravitated to were the D-Bm-F#-F#m bunch. The easiest way to plunk out notes for these babies simply "sounds Irish." Play the notes of D individually, and THAT alone sounds a tad Irish.
Moving back to Am-Dm-F-E, and the challenge became: Use those chords and DON'T sound Spanish! I found out I could do it! How cool is that?!?!? For a musically unshcooled guy, these ALL became REALLY fun discoveries!
If all of that made any sense, has anyone else out there noticed anything like this particular phenomenon? And, isn't this a bit of the instrument playing the player? And, am I doing nothing more than stating the obvious? If so, I apologize for wasting your time.
Alan
P.S. It should be noted that I'm neither Spanish, nor Irish, nor Russian by way of ethnicity, so it's not my inner soul speaking through the guitar...I'm just not that good! | |
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Posts: 3145
Location: Marlton, NJ | So... my big question for you is this:
Are you just improvising around those chord forms using the chord notes? When I asked you at the gathering what scales you were playing, you said you didn't know, or weren't really playing any scales. Whatever you were doing, it was very impressive. Definitely had a progressive rock kind of feel to it (kind of like Yes, or Al DiMeola).
I think it IS your inner soul speaking through the guitar and I think you ARE that good. It's something I can't seem to muster and I'm VERY jealous ;) I'm trying to work my way towards being able to play like that, but it just doesn't come easily to me. | |
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May 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Montana | Hey Alan,
Interesting, you might want to check out the couple of PBS shows on this month regarding music and the brain and/or the book "This is Your Brain on Music".
Some learned people theorize, if I understand these references correctly, is that part of our musical appreciation is cultural and learned. So some keys, chord progressions, and scales convey a feeling or sound. You arrive at Irish sounds because you are playing keys/progressions/scales typical of Irish music or that convey the feeling of Irish music. And maybe these sounds lead you to Irish rhythms etc. And so yes, it seems possible that the Irish arrived at their sound in a similar manner that you describe.
Scott | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by CrimsonLake:
So... my big question for you is this:
Are you just improvising around those chord forms using the chord notes? When I asked you at the gathering what scales you were playing, you said you didn't know, or weren't really playing any scales. Whatever you were doing, it was very impressive. Definitely had a progressive rock kind of feel to it (kind of like Yes, or Al DiMeola).
I think it IS your inner soul speaking through the guitar and I think you ARE that good. It's something I can't seem to muster and I'm VERY jealous ;) I'm trying to work my way towards being able to play like that, but it just doesn't come easily to me. Hi, Mike! First, thank you very much for your VERY kind words!
It's more like when I start at a note, I know which notes around it work for what I'm trying to get to, which I'm pretty much making up as I go along.
I guess I'm playing within scales, but it's stuck in a box that's about 3-4 strings tall by roughly 4 frets wide. I "feel" the notes that "work" within that box.
I play by feel, so usually have a strong idea of whether or not I have to move a half-step up or down to the next "right" note; and whether or not the same fret, but on the string above or below, works. But, it's usually constrained to THAT box, which is a weakness that is intensely frustrating to me.
I can move the "box" up and down the fingerboard -- sometimes quickly -- and that makes for some nice sounds, but I still have GREAT difficulty playing outside "the box." Unfortunately, the cliché work perfectly there!
When Matt was playing in the Auction House, I got the impression that he could go anywhere else on the fretboard at any time, and be properly positioned to play things that worked.
So, as regards the scale names, I truly don't know. I was hearing things like pentatonic and mixolydian, and I'll be darned if I knew what they meant! Except for the obvious -- pentatonic=5-tone, for example. But what does that MEAN, in terms of playing the guitar? I dunno! Worse: I suspect that I'm DOING these things from time-to-time -- maybe even often! -- and don't even know it!
Mkie, I suspect that my answer was frustrating in that I truly don't know what I'm doing -- in the sense that I don't know what it's called in genuine, authentic musical terms.
Matt said that we "need to speak music," and I guess that's part of my education that's lacking. | |
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March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Southern accents and southern (old timey and bluegrass) music both came from celtic regions because that is who mostly populated the southern US. I'm sure you have noticed the similarity of the music. You have to listen with an open mind to hear the similarty in the accent. But the music and the accent both changed some over time. That is why when you use some of these chord progressions but change the rhythm a little, you have something good (tried and tested), but new and exciting.
It sounds from Crimson Lake's post that instead of playing leads by scale, you play by position. One of my regulars here at the shop does that . He is an EXCELLENT guitarist who plays wonderful leads, but he knows nothing about scales. Doesn't matter HOW you get there, as long as you get there.
I think if you try coming up with a melody first, then try to put the chords to it, you will open up whole new worlds. There are LOTS of different chords and even different keys in some cases that will sound good with your simple melody. You can change the flavor by changing the progression and the beat. Isn't music just great? :cool: | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by ScottMt:
Hey Alan,
Interesting, you might want to check out the couple of PBS shows on this month regarding music and the brain and/or the book "This is Your Brain on Music".
Some learned people theorize, if I understand these references correctly, is that part of our musical appreciation is cultural and learned. So some keys, chord progressions, and scales convey a feeling or sound. You arrive at Irish sounds because you are playing keys/progressions/scales typical of Irish music or that convey the feeling of Irish music. And maybe these sounds lead you to Irish rhythms etc. And so yes, it seems possible that the Irish arrived at their sound in a similar manner that you describe.
Scott I'd LOVE to see those specials! I was thinking that the very "shape" of the chord might, coincidentally, produce the ethnic sound in question. So, the fact that the "D" is made as it is, which is because the strings are tuned as they are (no alternate tunings yet, please!) makes the Irish sound.
Now THAT poses the question -- which came first: the Irish sound, or the "D" chord?!?!?
IE: did the Irish sound develop, for example, because a particularly influential minstrel whose name is lost to posterity, found himself in his "D" period (for the guitar or lute, or whatever) at the time his influence spread? Or, does Irishness just naturally gravitate toward a "D" chord sound? Or both? Or neither?
Another interesting side note: I've always identified actual colors with music and guitar chords and the like, and D maj has always "sounded" green to me. Others: G=orange, Amin and Dmin= red-brown; E=white. These are all the ones with the open strings played in the first three frets. And, of course, colors are frequently associated with countries and ethnicities.
I guess the premise of the upcoming PBS specials is pretty interesting! | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
Southern accents and southern (old timey and bluegrass) music both came from celtic regions because that is who mostly populated the southern US. I'm sure you have noticed the similarity of the music. You have to listen with an open mind to hear the similarty in the accent. But the music and the accent both changed some over time. That is why when you use some of these chord progressions but change the rhythm a little, you have something good (tried and tested), but new and exciting.
It sounds from Crimson Lake's post that instead of playing leads by scale, you play by position. One of my regulars here at the shop does that . He is an EXCELLENT guitarist who plays wonderful leads, but he knows nothing about scales. Doesn't matter HOW you get there, as long as you get there.
I think if you try coming up with a melody first, then try to put the chords to it, you will open up whole new worlds. There are LOTS of different chords and even different keys in some cases that will sound good with your simple melody. You can change the flavor by changing the progression and the beat. Isn't music just great? :cool: Well, I think you nailed it! I play by position! Never really knew what to call it. From THAT perspective, the rest of what you said, may be very, very helpful!
I had heard the similarities in the different kinds of music -- both in melody an drhythm -- and it was always fascinating!
So, a BIG thanks for ALL of that! Also, I'll keep you posted as to what comes out of it!
And, you are SOOOOO right! Music IS just great!
Thanks, Canterbury!
Alan | |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | I just try and learn to play songs .. and usually end -up making " somethin` " out of it , that`s called .. what .. altering the arrangement , so as that even I can get by ..
Vic
.. me certainly no virtuoso .. | |
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March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | OK, there's your answer for how to get out of the box. Start with open chord positions, then move up the neck to the various bar chord positions. I am not a lead player, but when I play by position I have the chord to fall back on so I don't get lost. It's my security blanket of sorts. Even when I'm playing single notes, my fingers are hovering over that chord. I KNOW the scales, but without that chord I just don't know what to do with them. Keeping the chord in mind really helps me to make those single note leads SOUND like something. | |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Thanks. Now I know that all those mistakes I make are just because my Polish ancestry is playing my guitar. | |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Sure, that's why. | |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | AlanM,
I didn't even read the rest of the post yet, but I read this one line and had to respond to give you some perspective...
"It's more like when I start at a note, I know which notes around it work for what I'm trying to get to, which I'm pretty much making up as I go along."
Many... and I dare say MOST musicians spend their entire lives trying to achieve this. Most of us rely on other people's scales, or some other "rules" of music. Even trial'n error leads most of us to standard scales. I learned mostly via trial and error and in dissecting other people's music and the best I have ever achieved is knowing which "NOTE" might come next depending if I want to go up or down, with a 50% chance, it's likely to be the WRONG note, in which case I'm only 1/2 step from the right note.
Books have been written, entire methods created, and I think MANY... possibly MOST people here would love to know, without thinking, what all the notes around a chord might fit, even if they couldn't name them.
You have a gift my friend... and I don't even believe in that sort of mumbo-jumbo... but... as I have no reason to deny your words... I repeat... you have a gift. | |
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Location: Vernon CT | Ok, Can someone explain what is meant by "Playing by position" as opposed to playing scales? | |
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March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Bob, it's just knowing the notes that make up the chord and playing those notes and the notes around that chord that fit. (You know how if you're playing an open D you can add the pinky on the third fret of the high E string and that note "fits"?) So if the chord is D, you can play something melodic that uses those notes. Then when the chord changes to G, you can make your lead out of any of the notes in the G chord, plus any of the notes in that area that fit. If you want a higher note you can go up to the 10th fret and play your G there (using either a C shape or an A shape) now you have all of those notes available to construct your lead. To get used to this idea you can start by doing arpeggios of the chords. Then do them backwards. Then just do the notes randomly. You'll find something that sounds good. | |
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Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Ok, Makes perfect sense!! I had never heard the expression b/4. Thanks Alison! | |
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April 2006
Posts: 1017
Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Alan;
It is a gift, most decidedly, to be able to play with the fluidity you have and not be bound by the conventional ideas of scales or chords. In that sense, you are WAY outside the box, in a very good way.
My box has two years of music theory, counterpoint, choral arranging and all kinds of parameters for sides. The "music analyzer" runs in my mind all the time, decoding the chords and their structure. Even if I fingered half as well as you do, the freedom wouldn't be there--that's due to the shape of my box.
So, I guess what'd I'd really like is to live in your "box" for bit, and if I understand you correctly, you'd like some of the structure of mine? (I have the feeling you're going to come out way ahead of me on this one, though.)
That's the beauty of music--there's always so much room to expand and grow!
--Karen | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1:
Alan;
It is a gift, most decidedly, to be able to play with the fluidity you have and not be bound by the conventional ideas of scales or chords. In that sense, you are WAY outside the box, in a very good way.
My box has two years of music theory, counterpoint, choral arranging and all kinds of parameters for sides. The "music analyzer" runs in my mind all the time, decoding the chords and their structure. Even if I fingered half as well as you do, the freedom wouldn't be there--that's due to the shape of my box.
So, I guess what'd I'd really like is to live in your "box" for bit, and if I understand you correctly, you'd like some of the structure of mine? (I have the feeling you're going to come out way ahead of me on this one, though.)
That's the beauty of music--there's always so much room to expand and grow!
--Karen Karen, you're very, very kind to say what you say, and thank you so much for that. Here's the "but." Without the structure of which you speak, all I'm doing is noodling to fit my mood.
Lol!
I'm "mood noodling!" (Thank you, Karen for putting that into my silly head!)
I guess that "mood noodling" has its uses. I can go off and just sit down and play, and fall into an almost hypnotic state in which time just flies by. I'll come out of it refreshed and rested. I hate to say it, but I haven't done that in a long time! Two kids tend to compress the blocks of time available!
However, I don't want to play just by myself anymore, and with what I do, I have a feeling the phrase "doesn't play well with others" comes easily to mind.
So, yes, you're right, I'm trying to impose a little discipline and structure on the anarchy that is my playing!
Back to the "but" mentioned above. You easily could take your music and arrange it for yourself and two others. For yourself and five others. For yourself and a full orchestra if you'd like! And all points in-between. Spectacular!
I have the feeling that no matter HOW much discipline I impose on what I do, I'm doomed to play with ensembles of 4-5 tops. You have flexibility and extension built into what you do.
I fear that I see none of that in what I do.
But, that's why we do the exploration, eh? | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by BT717:
Ok, Makes perfect sense!! I had never heard the expression b/4. Thanks Alison! I'd never heard it before, but it sure seems to fit! I'm really glad Canterbury happened onto this thread!
Alan | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Thanks. Now I know that all those mistakes I make are just because my Polish ancestry is playing my guitar. Ok...that's just WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too funny! If MY ancestry were playing the guitar, you'd know what a mutt sounds like. Musically, that is! | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
AlanM,
I didn't even read the rest of the post yet, but I read this one line and had to respond to give you some perspective...
"It's more like when I start at a note, I know which notes around it work for what I'm trying to get to, which I'm pretty much making up as I go along."
Many... and I dare say MOST musicians spend their entire lives trying to achieve this. Most of us rely on other people's scales, or some other "rules" of music. Even trial'n error leads most of us to standard scales. I learned mostly via trial and error and in dissecting other people's music and the best I have ever achieved is knowing which "NOTE" might come next depending if I want to go up or down, with a 50% chance, it's likely to be the WRONG note, in which case I'm only 1/2 step from the right note.
Books have been written, entire methods created, and I think MANY... possibly MOST people here would love to know, without thinking, what all the notes around a chord might fit, even if they couldn't name them.
You have a gift my friend... and I don't even believe in that sort of mumbo-jumbo... but... as I have no reason to deny your words... I repeat... you have a gift. Thank you so much for your very kind words. I'd never thought of it that way, but for a moment or two I'm going to indulge myself and think of it that way. After that, though, I'm going to go right back to thinking it's undisciplined and unschooled. But for now, thank you for the really big, silly grin you pasted on my goofy face!
Alan | |
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Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 698
Location: Cork, Ireland | Originally posted by AlanM:
Originally posted by ScottMt:
Hey Alan,
Interesting, you might want to check out the couple of PBS shows on this month regarding music and the brain and/or the book "This is Your Brain on Music".
Some learned people theorize, if I understand these references correctly, is that part of our musical appreciation is cultural and learned. So some keys, chord progressions, and scales convey a feeling or sound. You arrive at Irish sounds because you are playing keys/progressions/scales typical of Irish music or that convey the feeling of Irish music. And maybe these sounds lead you to Irish rhythms etc. And so yes, it seems possible that the Irish arrived at their sound in a similar manner that you describe.
Scott I'd LOVE to see those specials! I was thinking that the very "shape" of the chord might, coincidentally, produce the ethnic sound in question. So, the fact that the "D" is made as it is, which is because the strings are tuned as they are (no alternate tunings yet, please!) makes the Irish sound.
Now THAT poses the question -- which came first: the Irish sound, or the "D" chord?!?!?
IE: did the Irish sound develop, for example, because a particularly influential minstrel whose name is lost to posterity, found himself in his "D" period (for the guitar or lute, or whatever) at the time his influence spread? Or, does Irishness just naturally gravitate toward a "D" chord sound? Or both? Or neither?
Another interesting side note: I've always identified actual colors with music and guitar chords and the like, and D maj has always "sounded" green to me. Others: G=orange, Amin and Dmin= red-brown; E=white. These are all the ones with the open strings played in the first three frets. And, of course, colors are frequently associated with countries and ethnicities.
I guess the premise of the upcoming PBS specials is pretty interesting! | |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1017
Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Perhaps a simple course of music theory would be good for you; an understanding of the "how and why" our music works the way it does will make it easier for you to play in everyone else's "sandbox." I mean, scales are scales; the note relationships in what we call "western" music are the same no matter what key you're in. Matt Smith touched on it, briefly, in the clinic we were at.
From what I could see, your "noodles" seem to be fairly scale-based; it'd be a matter of figuring out where they should be when the rest of us are playing in C, E, or any other key.
And, music theory, at least to me, is exciting--did you know that you can resolve one diminished chord (like D diminished) 8 different ways? Or that the tritone (the interval between F and B or its' inversion, B and F) is among the most powerful intervals in our music?
What makes music so wonderful is that it's always building tension, and then creating a release--restlessness, and then resolution.
It's going to be really fun for the rest of us to watch you grow in this, Alan--picture us all up in the stands, cheering you on.
--Karen | |
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October 2005
Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Alan, I have two suggestions.
First, go join a band or duo and start learning songs. Learn from a variety of artists who do the kind of stuff you like to listen to. You will quickly learn a lot of structure and standard tricks used in that kind of music. It will force you to get out of the "mood noodling".
My second suggestion is to start recording songs at home. There are a lot of free or very cheap software packages that will provide every instrument imaginable. Then start building songs. Put down drums, then a track of guitar chords, then some bass, then vocals if you want, then lead guitar, then mandolin, then violin, then keyboards, etc. This process will teach you a lot about how ensembles work together. You will also start listening to recordings differently and will start hearing how things are put together. | |
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March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | When I was at ProfessorBB's house, he recorded a loop of some chord progression and I tried to play along with it, while he played lead. Then he stopped and said it was my turn to play lead. I've never done it and told him I never learned the scales. He said he didn't know the scales either, he just "hears" the note he wants and can find it anywhere on the guitar. It would be insulting to call it a "gift" because he's played for 50 years, pretty consistently, and more recently is in at least one band where he has to learn new stuff every week, sometimes in a couple of hours. A lot of work went into developing that talent.
On CS's point, I have an old college buddy that played bluegrass for years. He showed me how he played simple leads, just by playing variations of an open D with a couple extra notes added in, up and down the neck. | |
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Posts: 15680
Location: SoCal | In interviews I've read, both Albert Lee and Glen Campbell have said that they play off of chord shapes, not scales.
Of course, huge talent and hard work don't hurt.... | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by FlySig:
Alan, I have two suggestions.
First, go join a band or duo and start learning songs. Learn from a variety of artists who do the kind of stuff you like to listen to. You will quickly learn a lot of structure and standard tricks used in that kind of music. It will force you to get out of the "mood noodling".
My second suggestion is to start recording songs at home. There are a lot of free or very cheap software packages that will provide every instrument imaginable. Then start building songs. Put down drums, then a track of guitar chords, then some bass, then vocals if you want, then lead guitar, then mandolin, then violin, then keyboards, etc. This process will teach you a lot about how ensembles work together. You will also start listening to recordings differently and will start hearing how things are put together. Those suggestions make a lot of sense, Fly...I'll start with your suggestions and others'. I appreciate all the feedback. It's astonishing, and gratifying, how helpful everyone here is! THIS rank rookie REALLY appreciates it!
Alan | |
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April 2008
Posts: 1851
Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1:
Perhaps a simple course of music theory would be good for you; an understanding of the "how and why" our music works the way it does will make it easier for you to play in everyone else's "sandbox." I mean, scales are scales; the note relationships in what we call "western" music are the same no matter what key you're in. Matt Smith touched on it, briefly, in the clinic we were at.
From what I could see, your "noodles" seem to be fairly scale-based; it'd be a matter of figuring out where they should be when the rest of us are playing in C, E, or any other key.
And, music theory, at least to me, is exciting--did you know that you can resolve one diminished chord (like D diminished) 8 different ways? Or that the tritone (the interval between F and B or its' inversion, B and F) is among the most powerful intervals in our music?
What makes music so wonderful is that it's always building tension, and then creating a release--restlessness, and then resolution.
It's going to be really fun for the rest of us to watch you grow in this, Alan--picture us all up in the stands, cheering you on.
--Karen Ya know? Besides being a VERY talented musician, you're also a REALLY sweet person, Karen! Thanks so much for the encouragement!
You're inspiring me to find out about all that stuff!
Alan | |
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April 2006
Posts: 1017
Location: Budd Lake, NJ | Actually, that's one of the nicest things about the board; we root for each other, encourage each other, watch out for each other. Every now and then there might be a disagreement about something, like in any "family," but when you really need someone who will hang in there with you, this is a great place.
(The down side for me is that I ever do "meet someone" again, he's gonna have to pass muster with all my board brothers......ohhhhh my. ;) :D )
--Karen | |
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