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| I'm writing this out of frustration.
As some of you know, I started practicing "Rhymes and Reasons" last week in anticipation of being able to do this song in a couple of weeks at an open mike night.
The chord changes are relatively simple G to D, then to CaddG, then to Em to Bm and then C and back to G (I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm typing this from memory). I'm working out of the John Denver Easy Guitar book.
Should be simple for someone who has been taking lessons for over 2 years, right? Well, I am tripping up on this song and it is frustrating. I'm also trying to sing and play this song, something that I haven't done much of.
One of the problems my teacher and I detected last night is the chord changes from G to D. I think it is because I'm still getting used to the Ovation neck and may be overcompensating because my "finger memory" is still "programmed" for the Walden.
And sometimes I can't seem to be able to make chord changes and sing at the same time. I literally seem to stop singing to make the chord changes.
One thing that happened last year is that I took a guitar course at the local community college. The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. I guess that tape is playing at the back of my mind.
I was talking to someone last night about this problem and he suggested that if I was having such difficulty with "Rhymes and Reasons" that I forget about doing that song and try something else. He suggested trying "A Horse with No Name" by America, as he said that it is a relatively simple song to learn.
I understand what he was saying, but I really don't like "A Horse with No Name". In fact, I don't really like most of the songs I've heard by the group America. I can't imagine myself learning something I don't like to listen to right now. Besides, I've quit doing lots of things in life, and I'm tired of quitting something just because it isn't coming easy to me.
My teacher says that I am doing "Rhymes and Reasons" at least 2 to 3 times better than when I first tried it several months ago. That gives me some comfort, but I'd like to really be able to nail this song, and it seems to be eluding me!
I am truly loving the Collectors, and am getting better at chord changes because of the neck. But what can I do to really nail this song? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I almost forgot to mention that I use the "cheater" version of the Bm chord
Sorry for the ramble. Sometimes I feel like a real piece of work.
Michelle |
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Location: closely held secret | Michelle, I'm sure you will get lots of ideas here on how to accomplish your goal. Here's mine, and you may or may not have heard this before.
When I started playing guitar... ok, when I started learning the guitar, there was quite a period when I played with the guitar, rather than playing the guitar...
I learned chords. I learn them so well that my hands were making the shapes in my sleep. When I had learned them I started playing random progressions of the chords I knew, not to make musical sense, but to teach my hands to move from one position to the next without me having to consciously analyze them. I practiced getting the chords 'clean' while doing it, then I progressively did it faster and faster. Sounded insane, but I now can read a chord sheet and only have to see the written chord and my hands know where to go. And I can concentrate on the words instead of the chords. |
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| Originally posted by The Wabbit Formerly Known As Waskel:
Michelle, I'm sure you will get lots of ideas here on how to accomplish your goal. Here's mine, and you may or may not have heard this before.
When I started playing guitar... ok, when I started learning the guitar, there was quite a period when I played with the guitar, rather than playing the guitar...
I learned chords. I learn them so well that my hands were making the shapes in my sleep. When I had learned them I started playing random progressions of the chords I knew, not to make musical sense, but to teach my hands to move from one position to the next without me having to consciously analyze them. I practiced getting the chords 'clean' while doing it, then I progressively did it faster and faster. Sounded insane, but I now can read a chord sheet and only have to see the written chord and my hands know where to go. And I can concentrate on the words instead of the chords. Thanks Wabbit!
The thing is that I know that I know these chords. I know them like I know the back of my hand. But why am I getting so tripped up on the progression? I forgot to mention that there is an Am thrown in the middle, right after a D chord.
Part of the problem might be is that when I strum, I think my pick pattern is boring (I sometimes think this between the chord changes). I am truly my own worst critic, I think.
Michelle |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
One thing that happened last year is that I took a guitar course at the local community college. The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. I guess that tape is playing at the back of my mind.
Michelle Michelle, the teacher that told you that is an ass, and it's not true. You've got to get that out of your head.
I've worked on stuff that when I start, it just seems impossible. I stay with it and amazingly, suddenly, it clicks. You don't always know when it's going to happen, but it almost always happens.
It will "click" for you as well. Just stay with it. Don't try for full speed on it, just play and sing it slowly and in good time. You'll get faster with it before you know it. But don't get frustrated by it. Everybody on this board has gone thru what you are right now. Hang in there... |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Practice, practice, practice. Ultimately, your fingers will configure the chords by rote and your mind will concentrate on expression and delivery of the words. |
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Location: Utah | I'll rely on the wisdom of the Beatles. There's nothing that has been done that can't be done.
You can do this but it may just take time. Being frustrated is part of the learning process. If you already knew it, it wouldn't be difficult or frustrating.
If there is one particularly difficult spot, go back to the chord or line before it and work your way through it slowly. When you have it at that speed, start going a bit faster.
Try not to practice mistakes, and try to practice from just before until just after the difficult part, so you have the transition or context of the part you trying to fix. If you only practice the difficult spot in isolation, it won't flow as easily when you do it in the whole song. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Great advice from everybody. The only thing I can add is that although you don't like songs by America (and I don't blame you), sometimes you can really dislike a song when you listen to it, but if you learn to play it, it might be so much fun that you start liking it. So my advice is to never discount a song 'til you've tried playing it. That will also get you used to the idea of playing requests that you're not crazy about. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Might I offer a slightly different approach.
How often have you listened to the tune? How often have you played along with the tune?
I would get a copy of the tune onto mp3 and play it over and over, sing along with it, listen to it. Then, play along with it, over and over. Don't concentrate on "getting your fingers to go in the right place" concentrate on listening to what you are playing. Don't try to get it right... don't stop it and restart. Just keep playing along with it, and singing along with it.
The nice thing about acoustic tunes is you can play the tune on your mp3 into your headphones, but sing and play out loud.
Eventually, you won't need the mp3 player, but insure you LISTEN to the FULL tune many times WITHOUT playing along first.
If you get to where you are comfortable with the tune, the quickness of switching chords is less of an issue, the need to strum a particular way is less of an issue.
If you are "waiting" to sing a note cause your hand isn't on the chord yet.. then you are not up to speed yet, that's all. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Michelle sez: The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now.
I find that encouraging, cuz I cannot sing. And I definitely cannot sing and play at the same time.
Now I have a Reason (excuse) :p |
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| Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
The teacher said to me that if I hadn't learned to sing and play right from the start of lessons that it would be very difficult to be able to so now. What an ass! Totally wrong, don't give it another thought!
My teacher says that I am doing "Rhymes and Reasons" at least 2 to 3 times better than when I first tried it several months ago. Then you have nothing to worry about. It just sounds like you need to develop the muscle memory. Are you trying to play it at full speed? Maybe slow it down a bit. One technique my instructor insists on is that I learn a new piece/progression/arpeggio at a slow speed - say 50 bpm - until I can play it without mistakes. Then gradually speed up day by day until I'm playing it at full speed without mistakes. That last is key, since you don't want to program something incorrectly into your brain.
Also try just the guitar part until you have it solid, then gradually add the voice. You may have to slow it down again to get the right phrasing, but it'll come much more quickly. I find that especially important if I'm learning a song that has a lot of arpeggios or other complicated fingering that harmonizes or syncopates on the melody.
Don't give up, and if you feel frustrated just set it aside for a bit and play something you're comfortable and familiar with to restore confidence. Then when you go back you'll find the difficult piece is easier. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I can't imagine going to a boring song you don't like just so that you could learn "a song." Playing and singing takes some time. Sometimes I find that singing helps me stay on track with the playing, but more often if I focus on the playing I forget what verse I'm on and if I focus on the lyrics, I forget the music. This is true of songs like "Scarborough Fair" that I've known for 35 years. It's also true of songs I'm still working on. It just takes a lot of practice. Most of what I do is a bit more difficult to play, but last night I was playing some Eagles songs that I wrote down 30 years ago and even though there were 3 or 4 chords, I'd keep forgetting that the second verse ended with a different chord than the 3rd verse or play the wrong chord even when the right one was written right in front of me.
I'm not trying to make you feel better by making me look stupid. I come by the stupid part naturally. I'm just trying to say that it takes a ton of practice to put the playing and singing together, even when you can do each separately without a problem. Giving up and going to a simple song you don't like won't teach you anything. Getting past the frustration will. If you can play or sing, you're ahead of most. If you can do both, you're way ahead. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "...but I really don't like "A Horse with No Name".
I understand that!
Try "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield...
Same chords, better song. :cool: |
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Location: south east Michigan | Great suggestions so far.
Here's my 2 cents.
1) Give yourself temproary permission to be less than perfect.... much less than perfect.
It's natural to be worse before you get better.
Besides, what's the fun and where's the reward in doing something perfect first time, everytime?
2) "There's lower hanging fruit"
It's an often used phrase between my dou partner and myself.
That doesn't mean give up, it just means to set it aside and come back to it another time. Kinda like taking a taste out of the stew pot and realizing it needs to cook a little longer.
We'll take a run at a new song and know pretty fast if it's going to work. Some are just not meant to be done by 2 guys with 2 guitars. Others are beyond our current skill level. We have put many songs back in the "pot" only to pull them out a year later and make them work.
So... Don't let yourself get hung up on one song. Some that seem simple are much harder to pull off than you'd think. Move onto something else to build up your chops and confidence. Then, come back after it's stewed in the "pot" for awhile. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts. |
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Location: Montana | Hi Michelle, could the problem be the easy arrangement? Have you compared it to a more accurate version?
I also tend toward the easy arrangements but sometimes I find that there is a song that just doesn't work that way, I can't get the rhythm or make the vocals get in sync with the guitar etc. And so I'm forced to go to a more accurate and difficult arrangement and I find that there was something missing in the easy version that doesn't match my musical memory of the song. Perhaps it's a chord change that was removed to simplify it, a beat that is skipped etc. And that something removed is what "sets up" the next chord change or lyric verse etc. in my memory. And sometimes what was removed isn't really that hard, so I put it in to the easy version and it works.
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Location: south east Michigan | Over simplified arrangements.... good point! |
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Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Slipkid:
I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts. Whew! I wasn't too sure about the way that whole thing was starting to sound there.
Michelle ... sounds like you're having trouble rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time (if I may make an analogy). With Rhymes and Reasons, you might want to focus on it being a vocal tune, and just taking a single strum of the guitar at the beginning of each measure and letting it resonate. I think R&R would work very well that way, especially with a pretty voice. That'll give you plenty of time to make the change and it will feel natural. In other words, accompany yourself on the guitar instead of trying so hard on both sides. Pat your head once for every circle you make on your tummy. ;) You'll be ready for the open mike and then down the road you can work on making it more complex if you want.
And you should take Miles' advice to heart.
Good luck and knock 'em dead. |
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Location: Delaware | I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head, or quietly humming them to help keep the rythym/pattern of the song, not really trying to play and sing at first, just play. Once I feel somewhat comfortable with the strumming pattern and melody, I'll start to concentrate on learning (and remembering) the words and the breathing pattern while playing the melody already learned. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I like the one strum per measure technique and use it from time to time.
quote:
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Originally posted by Slipkid:
I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts.
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Whew! I wasn't too sure about the way that whole thing was starting to sound there.
Tell me about it.
Now-a-days if you use the word "partner" in a sentence you better be clear on the context. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Fridave:
I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head,... That has always been my approach, as well. But, I cannot play a single song all the way through. Truth. I have an attention span probl...
I like the suggestion to put it aside and come back in a day or two. That's also always been my approach. Inevitably, though, I find another song that I want to learn and start tryi...
Good luck, Michelle! |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Hiya Michelle,
I can't add much to what's already been suggested except for one nugget of personal experience from someone who learned without an instructor and even had the easy chords JD Greatest Hits book back then. I've always sung and played, but when I was first learning, I had to know the lyrics cold to pull it off. Why? Because I couldn't keep up with even the simple music when I was trying to read the chords and lyrics simultaneously while thinking about progression and tempo and everything else. I listened and played with the record (You read it right.) until I didn't have to think about the lyrics at all. Then I could read the chords and sing without losing my place or over-thinking the sheet music.
Good luck and keep me posted. :D :cool: |
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Location: Utah | Something else to add is that sometimes your brain and fingers just don't like to work the same way as the original artist. I find that on many songs I just can't do it exactly like the recorded version, but with a few minor changes I can do it fine. Mine can be just as technically difficult, but for me it is easier.
If you listen to an artist's work, you'll hear a certain style that is theirs. Well, your style is different and is yours. Sometimes you won't be able to play someone else's song exactly as they did. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | "I have an attention span probl..."
Good to have you back, Crusty. Been way too long.
Michelle, keep in mind that you can put your own mojo on the tunes too and, if it doesn't sound exactly like Jim and Maury, that's fine too. I love going out and hearing Open Mikes and solo artists to see what kind of spin they're going to put on different tunes. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it needs a different spin but don't think that, if it's not exactly Jim, it's not good. Take a step back, take a breath and then have fun with the song. It'll come... |
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| Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
Great advice from everybody. The only thing I can add is that although you don't like songs by America (and I don't blame you), sometimes you can really dislike a song when you listen to it, but if you learn to play it, it might be so much fun that you start liking it. So my advice is to never discount a song 'til you've tried playing it. That will also get you used to the idea of playing requests that you're not crazy about. I'll definitely take that into consideration. The only thing is that it reminds me of last year in class when the rest of the class wanted to learn "Wish You Were Here". I got teased (good naturedly though) about not actually having heard the song because I don't listen to groups like Pink Floyd.
I really resented this choice of song and really didn't learn the song very well. But after hearing someone play it at a club, I kind of like the song, only I don't know if I would want to spend time learning it again. Weird, I know.
Michelle |
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Location: Cicero, NY | Michelle, half the beauty of that song, as is true with a LOT of songs, is the story behind it. Not saying that that particular song is everyone's cup of tea but much like Layla, Hey Jude or any number of classic tunes, the muse can add volumes. |
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| First of all, I want to thank everyone who has responded to me in this thread. I've gotten lots of great advice and support. I'm not good at multiple quotes, but I did want to respond to some of the comments:
Miles, I would love to get an MP3 player, but I haven't found one that is compatible with Windows ME. Do you know of a program that is compatible with Windows ME?
G8tr: I'm definitely going to try to slow it down a bit. My teacher noticed that as I get more and more frustrated, I tend to play faster, not slower!
Slipkid: I have put "Rhymes and Reasons" aside for more times than I can count. But it's not for the reasons you might think. I used to have had a love/hate relationship with this song. It goes something like this: love the melody and loved some of the lyrics, but I got hung up on on the lyric "for the children and the flowers are my sisters and my brothers".
At the time, I let my own "worldview" color my interpretation of this lyric. That's all I can say about that without it turning into a religious discussion.
But when I decided to look at the song in it's entirety and not focus on that one part of the song, I discovered a beauty and truth that I could wholeheartedly agree with and sing about.
The funny thing is now that I agree with the song, I have become so rusty that I can't seem to make the chord changes as good as I want to (at least right now).
Scott: the easy arrangement is driving me nuts! I feel like throwing out the book because it leaves so much out, such as the nice intro and ending that this song has.
Mark: I've been told I can sing, as I've attempted "Leaving on a Jet Plane" at an open mike. It was a small disaster -- I got verses and chords all mixed up because I was so nervous! I couldn't get it together -- I was singing some verses before the chord changes, etc.
Stonebobbo: It's definitely going to have to be a vocal tune, as I don't know what kind of pick pattern he is using and I'm not sure I can fingerpick and sing at the same time. Most people who show up at open mike nights don't get too fancy anyway.
Cruster: :D
Patch: I've been having some difficulty with remembering the second verse of this song. I guess it is because that while it was a hit for John, it doesn't seem to get played much on radio anymore (which is why I need an MP3 player). Playing it on the Collector's is making things easier than it was on the Walden.
FlySig: You're right about finding my own style. I'm thinking that if I slow this one down a bit, it may be just my style.
Thanks again, everyone for your responses.
Michelle |
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| Originally posted by Weaser P:
Michelle, half the beauty of that song, as is true with a LOT of songs, is the story behind it. Not saying that that particular song is everyone's cup of tea but much like Layla, Hey Jude or any number of classic tunes, the muse can add volumes. He said that he wrote it while he was in the shower.
I once read a saying that went something like "When the muse comes, you gotta be ready. You can't be outside washing your car."
Michelle |
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| Oops! I realized my mistake in the OP. I should have stated that one of the chords is CaddD, not CaddG!
Michelle |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Michelle,
I wish I could help you with some personal 'lessons learned'. But I'm just an ol' thumb strummer that learns the hard way, if at all. Plus I couldn't carry a tune in a #40 wash tub.
But since you don't have an MP3 player, go HERE and play and/or sing along. I use YT quite a bit to try to hone my rhythm/timing and try my 'leads' (not the metal, although...) and bass (not the fish, although...) lines. Either have a good set of 'puter speakers or use head phone/ear buds.
While all the suggestions have merit, there are two suggestions that stand out for me. Just strum once per bar which can be effective during the 'bumps in da road'. And when ya get frustrated, go to something else for a while. But don't give up...  |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | JD's stuff is mostly finger picking. If you get too simple, the melody that comes out in the guitar gets lost. Try Leaving on a Jet Plane with strumming. It sounds pretty good.
I feel your pain. When I first started, I learned Make It With You by Bread, about as simple as you could get. Then a roommate conned me into playing it (drunk) in a bar. I couldn't remember the last verse and just kept playing over and over. I thought I'd die there, trying to remember the last verse.
Although the open mike is a worthy goal, maybe it's stressing you out too much and you should just learn the song first. Set a goal to practice a certain amount per day and if you get hung up, play something else for awhile. I'll go over the same thing bunches of times. When I get tired of it, I do something else and come back. It took me months to learn Classical Gas and I don't remember doing anything else. But it was worth it. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
It took me months to learn Classical Gas You t*rd! 
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| Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Although the open mike is a worthy goal, maybe it's stressing you out too much and you should just learn the song first. Set a goal to practice a certain amount per day and if you get hung up, play something else for awhile. I'll go over the same thing bunches of times. When I get tired of it, I do something else and come back. It took me months to learn Classical Gas and I don't remember doing anything else. But it was worth it. What I think is stressing me out is the fact that at this particular open mike night, there tends to be some really good players that show up.
On the few times I actually did an open mike, I was so intimidated by those who came before me that I got so nervous and couldn't remember a lot of stuff.
I watched the John Denver video last night. I tried to do the chord changes without doing the strumming. At some points in the song, I wasn't too far behind him. Some parts, well I was waay behind!
And I noticed that he used the "cheater" Bm instead of a full barre chord. Made me feel better that someone at his skill level still uses a cheater chord!
BTW, It's okay to have classical gas here -- it just means that you are hankering for an Ovation classical guitar.
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| Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
I watched the John Denver video last night. I tried to do the chord changes without doing the strumming. At some points in the song, I wasn't too far behind him. Some parts, well I was waay behind!
And I noticed that he used the "cheater" Bm instead of a full barre chord. Made me feel better that someone at his skill level still uses a cheater chord! If you have the song as an mp3 or wav, you can open it in Audacity and then slow the tempo without changing the pitch. I often do that for particular passages that I just can't quite get at full tempo. Within Audacity you can also highlight just a section of the song if you want to loop it to play along with just that section. Geez, I wish tools like this had been available when I first learned guitar - I might actually have been a decent player instead of a hack.
If you go that route and run into any snags or question, please feel free to email or PM me for help.
Also, there's nothing wrong with using "cheater" chords rather than full barre. Where would metal be without power chords? Do whatever works best for you! |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
..I wasn't too far behind... Story of my life..... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
It took me months to learn Classical Gas You t*rd!
The nice thing about never performing or taking a lesson is that I can learn what I want at my pace. The bad thing is that the stuff I want to learn is really hard and my pace is really slow. I'm worse at golf though, and I spend more time at it. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by Guitarzannie:
Miles, I would love to get an MP3 player, but I haven't found one that is compatible with Windows ME. Do you know of a program that is compatible with Windows ME?
Michelle I understand there are a lot of 3rd party apps for iPods that work with ME, and also, I'm pretty sure the media player will allow you to read/write to an iPod. You only the iTunes if you are going to use the iStore. But as I said, I googled around a bit, and there seems to be several 3rd party stuff for iPods. And, of course, you could get something other than an iPod, or just play the mp3's on the computer.
My portable MP3 player is my phone. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Slipkid:
I miss-spelled "duo" and it's drivng me nuts. Making for a rather delicious irony, I think you might have misspelled "misspelled" as well. But don't let that driv you nuts... |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by AlanM:
I think you might have misspelled "misspelled" as well. But don't let that driv you nuts... Whoops, I think that did it...
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by cruster:
Originally posted by Fridave:
I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head,... That has always been my approach, as well. But, I cannot play a single song all the way through. Truth. I have an attention span probl...
I like the suggestion to put it aside and come back in a day or two. That's also always been my approach. Inevitably, though, I find another song that I want to learn and start tryi...
Good luck, Michelle!
JMHO: OFC Comedy writing is sometimes every bit as good as -- sometimes a LOT better than -- what the pro's write! |
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| Originally posted by cruster:
Originally posted by Fridave:
I usually listen to the song enough to become very familiar with it. Then I work on the chords and strumming pattern while thinking of the lyrycs in my head,... That has always been my approach, as well. But, I cannot play a single song all the way through. Truth. I have an attention span probl...
I like the suggestion to put it aside and come back in a day or two. That's also always been my approach. Inevitably, though, I find another song that I want to learn and start tryi...
Good luck, Michelle!
Michelle |
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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | First listen to the song, to point where you can sind along with the record.
Then,
I find writing out the rhythym, with each strum or stroke indicated, and then writing beneath the strum, stroke or note, the words to be sung, in the precise location where they're supposed to go, works pretty well.
I view it as there are two systems, my hands, and my mouth. And the trick is to get them in sync. I get my hands doing what they are supposed to do first, then work on getting my mouth to be in the right place.
And practice ...
With practice, it just |
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