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Location: Atlanta, GA. | A suspicious character ? |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall" |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | The level of intelligence of the average American has ceased to amaze me...
But in this case I can almost believe that I would have made the same mistake.
Now if he said he was Vincent Price, I might have went for it.
(Yes, Vincent is Dead... But with Vincent, you never know)
And Yes, that is a picture of Bob Dylan, not Vincent Price. :p |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Kids, ya gotta love 'em.... |
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Location: London, UK | The fact that this young police officer didn't recognize BD doesn't surprise me - I wouldn't expect someone of her age to necessarily be au fait with the current appearance of a man who was famous long before she was born, and whose career in music (however much we may admire it) probably means nothing to her?
What I find depressing about this story is the idea that, in some neighbourhoods, an old geezer simply taking a walk, getting caught in the rain and - god forbid... gazing at a house with a 'For Sale' sign outside it - is regarded as automatically suspicious and/or threatening. :rolleyes: Very sad. |
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| Originally posted by Ken C:
...What I find depressing about this story is the idea that, in some neighbourhoods, an old geezer simply taking a walk, getting caught in the rain and - god forbid... gazing at a house with a 'For Sale' sign outside it - is regarded as automatically suspicious and/or threatening. :rolleyes: Very sad. And that she could not let him go until his identity was established. What happened to the right to remain mute of malice..lol
On the other hand, I see that you are in the UK and from what I've read lately the common law there has really gone off the rails much worse than it has so far in the United States or Canada. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Ken & Joe, This is America!
Thanx to the Patriot Act, Police can ask (demand) ID from you and detain (arrest) you for not having any.
They need no reason or "Probable Cause"... Then they can hold you until you prove who you are.
Just like they did to Bob. |
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| Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Ken & Joe, This is America!
Thanx to the Patriot Act, Police can ask (demand) ID from you and detain (arrest) you for not having any.
They need no reason or "Probable Cause"... Then they can hold you until you prove who you are.
Just like they did to Bob. Thank you for clarifying that Arthur; I've been wondering for awhile about some of the stuff that I see going down - security v. liberty is a tough one. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "Hey Sarge... Meet me down at the Conference Center, I got this Old Geezer here who sez he's Bob Dylan!"  |
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Location: London, UK | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Ken & Joe, This is America!
Thanx to the Patriot Act, Police can ask (demand) ID from you and detain (arrest) you for not having any.
They need no reason or "Probable Cause"... Then they can hold you until you prove who you are.
Just like they did to Bob. ...and if my government has its way, that'll be the situation here soon. They've been trying to introduce 'voluntary' (don't make me laugh) ID cards for a while now. Unsurprisingly, nobody took to the idea, so now they've decided they'll have to be compulsory.
Likewise Joe, you're right on the money re. the situation here in the UK. Britain now has more surveillance cameras per head of population than anywhere else on earth, our police force now appear to be able to (literally) get away with murder, and our civil liberties are under greater threat than they've ever been, thanks to restrictive measures brought in under the spurious guise of protecting us from terrorism. There's nothing governments like better than having a convenient bogeyman around to justify imposing restrictions on personal freedom.
I could go on (at tedious length), but I'd better not... :D |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Actually this was a Terry stop based on a complaint of suspisious person.
The Terry STANDARD is reasonanle suspision.
The complaint formed the reasonanle suspision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
Terry stops have been legal since 1968.
None of this has ANYTHING to do with the Patriot Act. Had he had ID he would have been let go on the spot. The bought in in because he did not have any. They basically are varifing that there was wants or warrents on him. You are not arrested when taken in to get id on you. You are detained.
None of this new.
I did the Hartford Citizens Police Academy. |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Originally posted by Joe Rotax:
Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Ken & Joe, This is America!
Thanx to the Patriot Act, Police can ask (demand) ID from you and detain (arrest) you for not having any.
They need no reason or "Probable Cause"... Then they can hold you until you prove who you are.
Just like they did to Bob. Thank you for clarifying that Arthur; I've been wondering for awhile about some of the stuff that I see going down - security v. liberty is a tough one. |
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Location: big island | Originally posted by Joe Rotax:
...I've been wondering for awhile about some of the stuff that I see going down - security v. liberty is a tough one. benjamin franklin is credited with saying that those who would sacrifice freedom for a bit of security deserve neither. |
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| Originally posted by Ken C:
[QB]...and if my government has its way.. I'm originally from the UK and, as a civil barrister here in Canada, I'm quite astonished at certain developments taking place in England not the least of which are the cameras panning through your front window - who would have thought that Eric Arthur Blair would have nailed it so well from way back in 1949. |
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| Originally posted by PEZ:
... You are not arrested when taken in to get id on you. You are detained.
There is no substantive difference. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by PEZ:
You are not arrested when taken in to get id on you. You are detained.
None of this new.
I did the Hartford Citizens Police Academy. When you are "Detained" you cannot Leave!
But if you are "Arrested" you have Rights.
If you are detained, they do not need cause.
If you are arrested, there must be a reason. And you have a right to counsel and you have a right to Bail.
By saying that they must hold you until they verify your identity they are in fact telling you that you Must have an ID.
So they have defacto instituted a mandatory ID program. Even though it is against the will of the People and the Law.
The fact that the Hartford Police Academy sez that this is lawful gives me no solace. The Police also say that Tasers are not deadly force, even though dozens have died.
In 2002 I was held in Boulder, Colorado for 27 days cuz I did not have ID and they wanted an excuse to hold me. I was not arrested, I was detained. It took a writ of Habeas Corpus to get me out, filed 'pro se' (by myself) with the help of other inmates held for Major Felonies (Murder, Armed Robbery) that I was housed with. Without their help, I would have been held without any recourse to the courts. A fellow inmate gave my writ to his lawyer who filed it, cuz I had no access to the court. Every day I asked for a court date and was told that I did not have one cuz I was not being held for a charge.
The Police also think that it was alright to arrest Professor Gates on his own doorstep.
Had Bob Dylan not been "Bob Dylan", and just some innocent citizen, he would still be in jail. They thought that he was a homeless person, and were gonna lock his butt away.
This stuff happens every day... Every Hour! We only hear about it when the screw-up and get someone famous. They arrest, detain, lock-up, haul-away hundreds of people nationwide everyday. But nobody hears about it cuz they are nobody.
[As to my case in Boulder, they found me guilty of giving false information to a police officer, although I did not. But I had a choice of accepting that, or waiting another 30 days for a court date. It was 'Wrong'... But it is what I had to do to get my Freedom.] |
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| Originally posted by lanaki:
benjamin franklin is credited with saying that those who would sacrifice freedom for a bit of security deserve neither. This is the one that I go by and it sounds similar:
"Those who would sacrifice our much cherished civil liberties in the name of safety deserve neither."
Another favorite quote from Justice Andrew Napolitano of Montana regarding the second amendment:
"If a politician tells you that he’s in favour of the Second Amendment because he’s a hunter - he is no friend of the Second Amendment. Here is the dirty little secret of the Second Amendment that you never learned in public schools. The Second Amendment was written to give you the right to shoot at the government when it becomes a tyranny."
Unfortunately our western liberal democracies contain the seeds of their own destruction insofar as they require us to embrace cultures antagonistic to our values and we must then create laws to protect ourselves which laws are also antagonistic to our values. |
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| Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
... When you are "Detained" you cannot Leave!
But if you are "Arrested" ... Good post Arthur.
It's easy to get caught up in the high and mighty constitutional stuff but your comments are where the rubber hits the road so to speak. |
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Location: big island | that's the quote, joe. my recall was not far off... |
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| The young cop did her job like the pro she is. The only "lack of intelligence" here was displayed by Dylan himself.
Just kinda strolling around in the driving rain perusing houses for sale - yeah, that's suspicious. I'd a called the cops too. |
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| Originally posted by lanaki:
that's the quote, joe. my recall was not far off... I didn't know that it was Franklin but these canons of liberty know no borders. |
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Location: Brisbane Australia | I'm actually really surprised that he was able to tell her who he was.
The last time I saw him here in Oz he wasn't capable of coherent speech!!
AJ |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I've heard that Dylan does that a lot, goes off for walks on his own. You'd think by now he'd have figured out to keep some ID.
I guess he forgot the line about anything you do.... and where he was. |
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Location: Location Location Location | I was glad to hear that Dylan was cooperative. The cops these days have an incredibly difficult job, sometimes getting blown away when they pull someone over for a minor traffic violation.
So, unlike a recent Harvard Professor, who shall remain nameless, he cooperated and was released.
Bob was just Blowin' In The Wind, and was cool to the cops. I still like Bob.
Any Dylan fans will see the irony in the line from the song he wrote with the Traveling Wilburys about New Jersey, called Tweeter & The Monkey Man..."In Jersey, anything's legal, as long as you don't get caught." |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by PEZ:
Terry stop My personal main concern is the Baker Act!  |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Poise. Bob's still a class act. |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Originally posted by PEZ:
Terry stop My personal main concern is the Baker Act! |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Originally posted by PEZ:
You are not arrested when taken in to get id on you. You are detained.
None of this new.
I did the Hartford Citizens Police Academy. When you are "Detained" you cannot Leave!
But if you are "Arrested" you have Rights.
If you are detained, they do not need cause.
If you are arrested, there must be a reason. And you have a right to counsel and you have a right to Bail.
By saying that they must hold you until they verify your identity they are in fact telling you that you Must have an ID.
So they have defacto instituted a mandatory ID program. Even though it is against the will of the People and the Law.
The fact that the Hartford Police Academy sez that this is lawful gives me no solace. The Police also say that Tasers are not deadly force, even though dozens have died.
In 2002 I was held in Boulder, Colorado for 27 days cuz I did not have ID and they wanted an excuse to hold me. I was not arrested, I was detained. It took a writ of Habeas Corpus to get me out, filed 'pro se' (by myself) with the help of other inmates held for Major Felonies (Murder, Armed Robbery) that I was housed with. Without their help, I would have been held without any recourse to the courts. A fellow inmate gave my writ to his lawyer who filed it, cuz I had no access to the court. Every day I asked for a court date and was told that I did not have one cuz I was not being held for a charge.
The Police also think that it was alright to arrest Professor Gates on his own doorstep.
Had Bob Dylan not been "Bob Dylan", and just some innocent citizen, he would still be in jail. They thought that he was a homeless person, and were gonna lock his butt away.
This stuff happens every day... Every Hour! We only hear about it when the screw-up and get someone famous. They arrest, detain, lock-up, haul-away hundreds of people nationwide everyday. But nobody hears about it cuz they are nobody.
[As to my case in Boulder, they found me guilty of giving false information to a police officer, although I did not. But I had a choice of accepting that, or waiting another 30 days for a court date. It was 'Wrong'... But it is what I had to do to get my Freedom.]
NO drivers licence?
No Social Security number?
No provable address?
It sounds like did not cooperate and the refusal got ya charges.
Failing to propererly ID yearself is a crime in most jurisdictions.
You likely were arrested when you failed to cooperate. You proably were not detained for more than a couple days max.
Requirering you to identify yourself is not against the law. You are correct that there is no national ID card.
The practice of a Terry stop goes back decades before the SCOTUS case.
It was challenged and up held by a very liberal court with only 1 decent. |
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Location: Utah | Terry stop does require some reasonable suspicion or probable cause. A Terry stop does allow the officer to search your person in the name of officer safety. Not every contact with an officer rises to Terry standards, such as a simple traffic stop with no other complications.
I don't believe that it is generally a legal requirement that a person carry identification, but it is required that you provide your name to an officer if asked.
Because of the residents' calls about a suspicious person, the police had every right to investigate and contact him to see what he was up to. It does seem odd that Mr. Dylan would go out without any form of ID or his wallet.
It is rare that I don't have need to carry ID, usually some form of government issued license or permit. Even when going for a mountain bike ride I will carry my medical insurance card and my drivers license just in case someone needs to identify my unconscious body or I need to get some emergency care.
I was instructed by a lawyer to cooperate with an officer until the officer started on a fishing expedition. At that point he said to ask if I was being detained of if I was free to leave. Mr. Dylan apparently did not ask that question so we don't know if the officer intended to detain him or if Mr. Dylan was cooperating beyond what the officer could demand.
The one time we saw Dylan in concert he was stoned, belligerent, and ended the concert quite early when a fan walked to the front of the stage to take his picture during a song. I have not been a fan since. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Interesting posts...VERY tenuous link to music, but interesting posts. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Great story. It doesn't say if the officer took him back to the neighborhood. His handlers probably boo-hooed the idea. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | In NYC my wife and I had both been detained for riding our bicycles in the subway. My wife started arguing with the police officer, there's no signs blah blah blah. I instantly realized where this was going, and suggested that she question us separately, and verify the information right there instead of hauling us anywhere. we verified the info, and fortunately for us, some other bicyclist came riding by and she, yes it was woman, let us go.
If you can't think on your feet, it ain't so easy to get away from the police.
Other times I was taking a short cut on my bike and a beat cop shouted at me to stop. I just waived and kept going, but that's another story. |
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Location: NJ | well I think in this instance dylan would have been labeled a "person of interest"....
whatever the hell that means.
I think I am going to have my SS # tatooed to my butt so I can just drop my drawers for my ID |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Officer- "Central, I have a person of interest that just dropped his drawers when asked for an ID!"
Central- "... and?"
Officer- "Well, since both ends match, I just need you to run a SSAN."
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| Originally posted by an4340:
In NYC my wife and I had both been detained for riding our bicycles in the subway. Watch out for that third rail. |
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Location: Reisterstown, Maryland | Originally posted by alpep:
I think I am going to have my SS # tatooed to my butt so I can just drop my drawers for my ID As long as it's cute, works for me. :eek:
Anita
Retired Police |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | If I would have done that a few years ago, I wonder if the numbers would have grown bigger as I did.
Frankly, I don't think it would be a good idea, Al, although I tried to immediately erase the image from my mind, until Anita brought it back up. Anita, if it's as hairy as his face, you probably wouldn't be able to find the SS number. |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | We were just riding thru the train station, from one end to the other cause it was pretty big and there were no other people. Except the female cop who wanted to show she was in charge. All in all I thought it was rediculous.
Funny thing is I know cops saw me and friends in college taking a whiz on the subway platform and they did nothing. It's much easier to bully an innocent couple, then a mob of drunken white boys. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Originally posted by Ken C:
What I find depressing about this story is the idea that, in some neighbourhoods, an old geezer simply taking a walk, getting caught in the rain and - god forbid... gazing at a house with a 'For Sale' sign outside it - is regarded as automatically suspicious and/or threatening. :rolleyes: Very sad. Ken, I can't agree enough!
I would also like to add that it's an equally sorry state when folks will call the police instead of getting off their rears, walking outside, and talking to someone who seems out of place. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | by PEZ:
Why would not simply not provide a source to iD yourself?
NO drivers licence?
No Social Security number?
No provable address?
It sounds like did not cooperate and the refusal got ya charges.
Failing to propererly ID yearself is a crime in most jurisdictions.
You likely were arrested when you failed to cooperate. You proably were not detained for more than a couple days max.
First... I am not allowed to drive. I was homeless. My wallet was stolen. My provable address was three states away. It is very difficult to get ID without first having ID. A Social Security Card is Not ID, sez so right on it.
Second... I was 'detained' when I called the police myself, to report a dead body in the creek.
Third... I was held for 27 days, are you implying that I wasn't?
I think that because the nice policeman let you ride in the car and play with the siren, you have a skewed perspective about the way police deal with their "undesirables". |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Whoops, did we take a wrong off ramp? |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
you have a skewed perspective about the way police deal with their "undesirables". I respect the work police do, but I too had to reset my perspective a few years back.
I had worked as a "contracted" training instructor for the DOD for about 10 years and upon moving back to CONUS, the rural community here was short of money and needed help in the sheriff's department so I thought going into law enforcement may be a good fit for me.
I spent the next year going thru a POST course but in the end found that my idea of law enforcement was more in tune with TV's Andy Taylor while the instructors and other students were more of the TV "Cops" mentality.
Everyone seemed to be a potential "bad guy" (their term) that you shouldn't trust unless you proved them innocent.
After passing the course, I thought I would volunteer with the sheriff's dept. just to get a true idea of how they saw things, but found the mentality to be the same as in the class. I simply wasn't a good "fit".
I understand the need to be aware of your surroundings and the potential risk that may posed, but what happened to the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty? |
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Bob Dylan questioned