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Location: Phoenix AZ | On another thread the topic of adamas reissues vs. the originals came up. Thought it deserved its own place. Specifically the early 1687's and slotheads.
I've owned original 1687's (s/n 400 something) and the reissues at the same time. As well as Slothead #42 and the OFC/47RI guitars at the same time. Without question, no doubt about it, the original 1687's and slotheads sound BETTER. Period, no debate.
However ... some of the originals are in terrible shape, don't play well, have all kinds of cosmetic damage, electronics can be spotty if not completely failed already. The quality can very significantly from one to the other, etc. etc. and they can be pretty pricey. Esprecially the slotheads.
The reissues, on the other hand run about 1/2 the price, are usually very good quality, the electronics are top notch and sound close enough to the originals that THEY ARE AN ABSOLUTE FRIGGIN BARGIN.
Other opinions ??? |
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Location: in the land of enchantment | Hey Gallerinski...what is about the originals that make them sound better? Do you think it's the bracing, the type of wood used, the aging of the sound, ect. ect. Having little knowledge of the originals vs. the RI's...other than the electronics...were the RI's built to the same specs as the originals?
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Probably 30+ years of mojo from playin....just like any other old guitar.
Tony C said it best in the other thread. They should be called re-creations instead of reissues. |
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Location: Central Florida | Call me an over imaginative, brain damaged, mushroom huntin', 70s throwback but there is a vibe in my original 1687s that is not in the reissues I have played. Not even the 47RI. It is not sound, it is not feel, and it is not new. It’s something from 1978 and 1979. I have no idea what it is exactly or how to effectively explain it but I’m pretty certain that it can’t be bought or built new. All I really know is that its there for me in my originals and it feels far out. And far out is damned hard to find in the new millennium. :)
Just my 2 cents.
Or 2000 dollars.
Or 4000 dollars. :p
Otto
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I would agree with Dave. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I did a major A/B with OFC No. 5 slothead against original No. 43 which had been played for many years on the road by Elginacres. The differences were noticeable in many ways. No. 43 just rings forever. |
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Location: in the land of enchantment | So, like a fine wine, age brings out all the subtle undertones and mellowed high notes. As Otto said...far out! I wonder if the RI's will have the same qualities in 30 years.
And like all us middle-agers can tell the young 'uns..we just get better with age too!
R |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Otto:
Call me an over imaginative, brain damaged, mushroom huntin', 70s throwback but there is a vibe in my original 1687s that is not in the reissues I have played. Not even the 47RI. It is not sound, it is not feel, and it is not new. It’s something from 1978 and 1979. I have no idea what it is exactly or how to effectively explain it but I’m pretty certain that it can’t be bought or built new. All I really know is that its there for me in my originals and it feels far out. And far out is damned hard to find in the new millennium. :)
Just my 2 cents.
Or 2000 dollars.
Or 4000 dollars. :p
Otto
. It's gotta be "imprinting" -- like with ducks. I went through a SERIOUS classical music phase (still there, just a LOT more mellow about it.) and I could stand only the very FIRST recording I ever heard of Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Philadelphia Philharmonic with the Mormomn Tabernacle Choir). All others fell flat for me.
Same with the very first recording I ever heard of Beethoven's 5th Piano concerto. For me it HAD to be Seiji Ozawa and the Boston Symphony, with Rudolf Serkin. And so on with others.
Imprinting.
Otto brings up the subjective "70's vibe thing," recognizable only to those who were there and aware they were experiencing it.
Then, of course, redcat poses some excellent questions...if the RI's were meant to be somehow an improvement on the original, then the discussion is relegeted entirely to the realm of the subjective.
ProfessorBB talks about the objective measure of "ring time," which is helpful.
No one, however, mentions when they had their experiences with each type of guitar. I'd be interested to find out what say those who fell in love firstwith the RI's, THEN played an original (in that sequence).
So, I have a modest proposal: Various OFC members should find a representative example of an RI and an original, then ship them to me. I will generously agree to play (and certainly fall in love with) the RI, first, for a month or so. Then I'll drop it in favor of the original, and, a month or so later, report back my findings.
My fee would be EXTREMELY reasonable: I get to keep the two guitars.
Pretty darned good of me to propose this, doncha think? |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I think it was Nick Mackin,Jack Keroack, John Berwald, and Randy Seebeck, plus a few others whose names escape me at the moment. These were the guys who built these things back in the late seventies and early eighties.
I believe that the newer ones will sound just as good after thirty years of being played. And the nice thing is that they are new, no problems, and you get to put in your OWN mojo. Now that I have an Adamas I, the next order of business is to get a reissue. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by AlanM:
Pretty darned good of me to propose this, doncha think? WOW, here ya go...
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | AlanM, the "ring time" I spoke of is essentially the amount and length (in time) of vibration. The two guitars have slightly different sounds, both excellent, just different. My recollection is that the original slothead vibrated for something like 45 seconds while the newer slothead vibrated for about 35 seconds with approximately the same open tuning strum. This longer period of vibration seemed to give it stronger mid-range clarity. There were also some distinctive differences in build consistency and quality . . . think '55 Chevy against a new muscle car (any manufacturer should do). The '55 is endearing, but the comparison is somewhat unfair. The increased vibration from original No. 43 is most likely the result of significantly more actual use, not any difference in build quality. It was a fun comparison for sure! It should be somewhere in the archives. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by CanterburyStrings:
I think it was Nick Mackin,Jack Keroack, John Berwald, and Randy Seebeck, plus a few others whose names escape me at the moment. These were the guys who built these things back in the late seventies and early eighties.
I believe that the newer ones will sound just as good after thirty years of being played. And the nice thing is that they are new, no problems, and you get to put in your OWN mojo. Now that I have an Adamas I, the next order of business is to get a reissue. you got the guys right as far as I remember. I talked to nick extensively and they were really flying by the seat of their pants back them trying to make the best guitars possible.
I think maybe in the nineties that was not the case but the reissues have very passionate people involved in the building and execution of the instruments. the wanted to make them right and get them right.
IMHO they succeeded |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | And they did it without computers (I assume). Imagine that. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Originally posted by AlanM:
Pretty darned good of me to propose this, doncha think? WOW, here ya go...
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Now about youse guys a-rustlin' up those two guitars fer me? Couldja hustle it up a bit? The rest of the folks here want to know what my findings will be! |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
AlanM, the "ring time" I spoke of is essentially the amount and length (in time) of vibration. The two guitars have slightly different sounds, both excellent, just different. My recollection is that the original slothead vibrated for something like 45 seconds while the newer slothead vibrated for about 35 seconds with approximately the same open tuning strum. This longer period of vibration seemed to give it stronger mid-range clarity. There were also some distinctive differences in build consistency and quality . . . think '55 Chevy against a new muscle car (any manufacturer should do). The '55 is endearing, but the comparison is somewhat unfair. The increased vibration from original No. 43 is most likely the result of significantly more actual use, not any difference in build quality. It was a fun comparison for sure! It should be somewhere in the archives. Thanks, ProfessorBB! As ignorant of the physics of these great guitars as I am, I appreciate all these pieces of knowledge!
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I was never able to be fortunate enough to find an Adamas I at a store in 1978-the 80's while I was on tour...The first one I was able to play was Woz's early CHK signed 1688-8 at the '07 tour...I will never forget it...I have never heard an Adamas 12 string that sounded better to this day. I was hooked big time! In a few months I found the 1988 1688-5 12 which I had at Amelia; very nice guitar: good voice but not quite like the one of Woz that I played. The next one was a 1981 1687-7 which I bought and still own...great sounding guitar and absolutely beautiful...Then I was able to buy an 1187-247 RI slothead #87: What an awesome guitar. In between I bought several Adamas II 12's (1685's): each was great sounding but the 1981 -5 was the best sounding of the two: Beggin owned that one after me. I then bought a 1983 1688-7 12 string which gave me the "Adamas -7 Twins" that I still have. I bought a 2008 Collector Adamas which, although strikingly beautiful, did not sound as good to my ear as either my original Adamas guitar or the '47RI. Then, I was fortunate to get a heads up from Jerome who knew I was looking for an original, after admiring his #125 -7 1687, and I bought my 1978 1687-8 #189-89: what a guitar! Absolutely incredible with the vibe and sound that you have to experience to understand. I have done many side by side comparisons and as much as I like all of my Adamas guitars, the 1978 #189 is the sweetest and best sounding Adamas I have ever owned or played (Woz's 12 included although it may be a tie).
Otto says it so well:
Call me an over imaginative, brain damaged, mushroom huntin', 70s throwback but there is a vibe in my original 1687s that is not in the reissues I have played. Not even the 47RI. It is not sound, it is not feel, and it is not new. It’s something from 1978 and 1979. I have no idea what it is exactly or how to effectively explain it but I’m pretty certain that it can’t be bought or built new. All I really know is that its there for me in my originals and it feels far out. And far out is damned hard to find in the new millennium.
I would only disagree as far as my '78 -8 goes: it does sound better on a A/B comparison even with the 47 RI.
I have played a new RI 1687-8...it is a very nice guitar...who knows; if it is played a lot and taken reasonably good care of, it may develop a similar sound in 31 years...I don't know...and to many, that does not matter...but it matters to me and I personally like the originals...
A new Martin D-28 looks similar to and sounds somewhat similar to a vintage D-28 (especially to the ones who have never heard or played a 1940's D-28)...but they are not the same as a 30's or 40's Martin D-28 and I personally doubt that they ever will be. That is not speculation; it is fact. That bears up in the prices they command for the old ones vs. the new ones.
New Adamas I's are going for about half of what an original brings now (unless one gets very lucky). Yes, it is a bargin...and with time, maybe...but it is not, nor will it ever be, an original...That is reserved for the first several years and perhaps even the first few hundred instruments...
I would agree that unless it is worth it to the individual to own an original with the higher cost to own fees, a RI is a very good alternative.
So, whatever floats yer boat... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by AlanM:
No one, however, mentions when they had their experiences with each type of guitar. I'd be interested to find out what say those who fell in love firstwith the RI's, THEN played an original (in that sequence). Slothead #42, 47RI #47 and OFC #8 are sitting at my knee as I type this. I got them all within about 6 months of each other. All three are good, but #42 is REAL good. That's what you get for over 10k. |
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Location: SoCal | This is not intended to be negative, especially for those that can...
I still come back to my statement in the other thread:
"Awhile back, there was an original slothead available about fifteen minutes from where I live...if I had, I wouldn't have been able to get # 3 of the 47RI, # 7 OFC, and my 1688-8 12-string."
It was a big push to get one of the above, bigger push to get all three.
Then, in the same time frame, the Takamine TVN360SC (with -2), the 45th Anniversary Takamine, the Takamine New Yorker, and the Martin HD28VS. Each with a different "voice" and, in some cases "style" of playing.
In hindsight, as I just replaced my appliances, carpet, bought a few things for my daughter (refrig, washer, and dryer), helped my niece through medical school, helped my nephew who has a family pay the bills on enlisted pay until he had a couple of promotions...lucky that I have the guitars that I have as I ponder retirement in a few years as I am now 61. In addition, I drive a Mustang GT convertible and an Alfa Veloce Spyder (convertible) v. a Mercedes. Not complaining at all, feel blessed. Didn't pay that much for the Alfa but I get Ferrari drivers giving me the "thumbs up" as they drive by.
Life is a balance, guitars are a balance, cost v. playability as well as your family's needs.
Many on the OFC will never be able to play or purchase an Adamas textured top (at least while there are house payments, tuition, rent v. own, etc.) Maybe by the time they get to the "time of their life" when they can justify one, there will be a reissue available.
Nice that we can be so subjective. However, the bottom line is that IF you can't get an original or early model, you can get an outstanding reissue that has the Ovation or Adams quality, a warranty and begs for playing for a reasonable price (often without having to sell your other guitars).
I have taken my 47RI to some players and their jaws dropped. My compliments to those at the factory that have done a great job.
Any Adamas textured top will blow your socks off...side-by-side, some minute differences - good and bad. You get an older one, suggest you invest about $300 for one of the new version of the 2-knobber pre-amp. Older ones may have "mojo" but also belt rash, headstock damage from a mike stand, or damage from a previous owner who dropped it.
Whatever you do, if you can, get a textured top Adamas...you will never look back.
As an aside, assuming Al still has any 1687 reissues still available, I don't understand why...even IF the Custom Shop is still available, these are not the first but definitely the last. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I'm sure many are in the same boat. In 78 I finally finished school with a modest debt--only about 2/3 of my first annual salary of $10,000. Getting a home, reliable car, paying off the debt for school and the 71 VW Van, and just having enough to eat was more important than a guitar. 30 years later the OFC was still a big extravagance, but the kids were almost out of school, we almost had the mortgate paid off and it may have been a once in a lifetime deal. I don't know if there will be a better time, but there have been lots worse. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Tony and Mark, we're all about the same age: I went through some difficult times as well. I finished active duty in the Marines in Dec. 1975 and played music full time for the next 18 years...I made decent money but life on the road was expensive...if I wanted a new/better guitar, I had to sell the one I had to get it...later I was able to aquire several, keep several, and several later turned into a lot...then, in 2001, I sold almost all of them to bring my bride to the US and finance the process of her becoming an US Citizen (which she did in 2007)...I'd do it again in a minute...she put herself through nursing school and became an RN as I finished Seminary and moved up the "ladder" in the Ministry one rung at a time over 18 years...In the meantime I have been able to turn my passion for music and guitars again into a small collection of very nice instruments...I have been blessed and hope to leave them as a legacy for the kids...in the meantime, the guitars are used (some more than others) and the stories about each guitar make great sourses of conversation...I have been very fortunate to find older guitars for much less compared to what they are worth and normally sell for...if I was just starting out I would not hesitate for a moment to buy a new RI from Al...they are great guitars and have full warrenties which can certainly come in handy if something should ever come up...they are beautiful and sound great...Adamas I's are, in my opinion, just the coolest looking and playing guitars ever made...
But, whether its a new Adamas or a vintage one, they are still the cutting edge of technology that other companies try to copy and strive to emulate...
Even with the economy in a difficult place, getting one of these iconic guitars will be the cornerstone of a collection or a fantastic trusted instrument that you will probably never need to sell to get a better one like I had to: because you already have the best there is! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | You can't say universally that a reissue is always better than the original because it's new, better quality, cheaper, etc. Nor can hyou say that the original is necessarily better than a reissue. Really depends on the specific guitar and even more so the specific situation of the buyer. If you only have reissue money, then the discussion of whether it's better than the original or not is meaningless. And if you have money for an original, you may be better off spending it on TWO reissues (or a reissue and a Takamine TF360SBG, wink wink).
I know this topic was about Adamas, but for the record IN MY OPINION, the following reissues BLOW AWAY the originals upon which they were copied ...
- 2006 K1111 Balladeer shiny bowl
- 2004 CL30 Custom Legend
- 2005 John Lennon Legend Limited
- 2006 Glen Campbell 1627 |
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Location: Tennessee | You nailed it Dave. I have two of the four guitars you mentioned and they stomp the originals (IMO). I also have an OFC slothead and it is an incredible guitar ... from top to bottom. As good as it gets. BUT ... I've played maybe 6 or 8 different original slotheads and every one of them was better than my re-creation. But give the Ding!-O 20 years or so ... |
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Location: SoCal | Bottom line, buy the best you can reasonably afford, play the heck out of it...become the best player you can be.
Has been said that a great guitar player can make a 2x4 sound good.
As to:
- 2006 K1111 Balladeer shiny bowl
- 2004 CL30 Custom Legend
- 2005 John Lennon Legend Limited
- 2006 Glen Campbell 1627
I agree...
By the way, my 1687-2 (red) reissue sounds awfully good. :D |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yeah, I was talking to a member on the phone tonight and we speculated what the current adamas textured topped guitars might sound like in 30 years. Not sure I'll be here to find out. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Bottom line, Gallerinski? GREAT topic! Responses VERY informative. I think that some people propose some topics not only to hear the responses, but to get the learning that inevitably comes out of it.
Uhhhh...don't cut it out, ok? |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | fingers crossed...lol |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Well said, Tony. I'm in a little different position. Give me any decent guitar with electronics and with the right amp, I can make it work. The fortunate thing about most of the Ovation models and all of the Adamas line is that they're professional grade instruments, so picking which one is "better" is very subjective at best. The biggest downside is our own personal limitation in what we can do with them. I listened in awe as Matt Smith used an entry level Celebrity at one of his dealership appearances. With eyes closed, you'd have sworn that guitar was much higher up the value scale. I consider myself very fortunate to be able to indulge myself with these beautiful valuable instruments. New, old, original, reissue, whatever, I really love them all and can make every one of them work for my needs. |
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Location: SoCal | +1 |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Well said!
+2 |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I forgot about the Hohn Lennon Limited, one of my favorites. It's been a long time since I played one. I'd be interested in comparing one to a Patriot.
On that note, I'm easier to please than Alan. If someone would like to bring over a 74 CL, an original K1111 and a couple of original slotheads, I'd be happy to participate in a comparison. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I forgot about the Hohn Lennon Limited, one of my favorites. Well said there, Fat Fingers. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I forgot about the Hohn Lennon Limited, one of my favorites. It's been a long time since I played one. I'd be interested in comparing one to a Patriot.
On that note, I'm easier to please than Alan. If someone would like to bring over a 74 CL, an original K1111 and a couple of original slotheads, I'd be happy to participate in a comparison. Oh, I'd do THAT comparison too! No problem at all! Same fee: two Adamii.
Pretty flexible, eh? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Oops. I noticed that typo after it was too late to edit. I'll have to go back and see if I talked about Jarry Chapin, too. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Soooooooooooo...kin ye tell Ah'm a-hooked on Adamii?
Well?
Kin ye? |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Alan, you're in Connecticut, where it should be easy to compare Ovations. In Boise, that's not so easy. That's why I'm offering to do the comparison for free. I'll let you take back the guitars you brought. It's cost me a bunch of money to travel around the country and world to try other people's Ovations, but I can't seem to entice any of the OFC to visit here. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Alan, you're in Connecticut, where it should be easy to compare Ovations. In Boise, that's not so easy. That's why I'm offering to do the comparison for free. I'll let you take back the guitars you brought. It's cost me a bunch of money to travel around the country and world to try other people's Ovations, but I can't seem to entice any of the OFC to visit here. I know what you mean! If I had the time and the wherewithal, I'd visit your neck o'the woods in a heartbeat! (well, in a Jeep).
At least your place has the distinction of being the place people visit and never want to leave. Ct's pretty much the exact opposite of that: they want to visit, then can't wait to leave. Don't really blame 'em.
However, we DO have the Adamas manufacturing center! Maybe THAT's why the rest of the state is crappy: God lets you have only one great thing. In Idaho's case that's, well, Idaho. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
I can't seem to entice any of the OFC to visit here. You convinced us all that your wife is a scary person to be around if too many guitars/players show up! :rolleyes: |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It's good that Idaho is getting a better reputation. I didn't realize that my wife scared anyone but me. You guys don't have anything to worry about. She doesn't care what you spend your money on. She thoroughly enjoyed the 4 hour jam I had with Karl in Rothenberg. She just didn't like the part where I decided I had to have one of those #47s. |
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Location: closely held secret | She didn't scare me. It might have been the other way around. She sure disappeared fast. |
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Location: Tennessee |  |
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Location: Newington, CT | Heeeeeyyy...I didn't give anyone permission to use my picture!
(I'm the one int he back who hasn;t brushed his teeth yet.) |
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Location: Seymour, Tennessee | You know, I've never actually gotten to play an Addams but I do have a dream of owning one someday.
With people talking about how older guitars sound better, I have to agree and just assume it's the same with the A's as with the O's.
Maybe it's nostalgia or simply missing him, but when I play my Dad's old Shiney Bowl, the sound just blows away my other two.
Admittedly they are super shallow bowls, but it sounds better to me than other deep bowl Ovations I've had a chance to play too.
Anyway, one of these days I'll get an A, might have to turn criminal to get the dough though.
HA HA HA HA |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Michael,
Just keep the eyes and ears open and in the For Sale section.
Sometimes there are great deals that pop up unexpectedly.
Also, talk to Mr. Big. He had some import Adamaii a while back that most people who had played them said sounded really good at a ridiculously cheap price. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by The Wabbit Formerly Known As Waskel:
She didn't scare me. It might have been the other way around. She sure disappeared fast. Kinda like bears. Everyone says they are more afraid of you than you are of them, but they don't seem to wet their pants when you stumble on them. |
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Original Adamas vs Reissues