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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Based on some posts in another thread about playing, playing for money, playing with friends and coupled with a recent "lesson learned," I thought this might make an interesting discussion so here goes.
I recently found out, figured out, realized, and was astonished to learn... that while I "know" probably a 100 tunes start to finish, I probably can't play two-of-'em, start to finish, by myself.
Doesn't matter if they are covers or originals, I did not realize how much I rely on the "cues" of the vocal, and the other instruments of the tune to be able to play it.
I got together for a Jam with a drummer and another guitar player. The other guitar player and I are musically from different worlds. While I was able to follow him, I had a hard time giving him any guidance to follow me on the simplest of tunes. And FORGET vocals. Songs that I've sang 100's of times, that I wrote, I was stuck without the backup vocals, the bassline, the keyboard parts etc. etc.. What was really bizarre (to me) is the Drummer started a few tunes that have signature openings.. "Hair of the Dog, Rock'N Roll, Born to Be Wild, et al." and sometimes I'd jump in with the guitar part. The bizarre part was I didn't know what song I was playing. We got a good chuckle a couple of times as it was like I was playing out of uncontrolled response.
Frankly I was embarrassed and dumbfounded as I have been "practicing" many tunes for several months playing along with recordings of all of them... most without really missing a beat.
Ok.. those were the extremes... I also realized, especially on ones I wrote. I ONLY know my parts. So if there's a piano intro as example and most of the first half the song is Piano, Bass and Drums... then the lead comes in... and continues to the end... I don't even know what key it's in. I know the lead... not much fun at a Jam.. :(
Anyway... I finally realized why I really don't like Jamming... It's cause the other people don't know the songs, and I can't help'em. So I end up playing what everyone else wants to play with no satisfaction really for me.
I also realize my new "project" is to learn and create "solo" arrangements of songs I wrote.
I just wondered if anyone else has run across this, or anything similar.... or will admit to it.
Just thought it might make for interesting chatter. |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | I don't play well with others. Been playing by myself for 30 years now. |
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Posts: 24
Location: Blacksburg, SC. | I feel your pain. Most of the times I've played with others, unless there's a structured song set, it usually turns out to be everyone playing what they know with few times things come together. |
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Posts: 61
Location: on the web | The absolute worst is having 4 or 5 guitarists strumming the exact same cowboy chords in exactly the same rhythm - a muddled mess of sound.
The absolute best is a group of competent players who can actually listen to what others are playing and complement each other musically by playing harmonies, melodic leads, and chord inversions. |
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Posts: 24
Location: Blacksburg, SC. | agreed. |
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Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by The Usual Suspects:
The absolute worst is having 4 or 5 guitarists strumming the exact same cowboy chords in exactly the same rhythm - a muddled mess of sound. Not always. That's what gave "My Sweet Lord" such a full sound, they had a whole mess of guitarists with exactly the same strum. |
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Posts: 7307
Location: South of most, North of few | If you have a whole mess of "professional" guitarists together, that's a different animal. The key here is "exactly the same strum". |
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Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | One of my frustrations is only being able to play in an ensemble. I know my part, but couldn't perform the song solo as a coherent song.
Partly it's the type of song, and partly it is lack of singing. With singing I could strum along and it would sound like a complete song. Many songs really depend on the vocals far more than on the guitar which could be plain or mediocre. |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | 10/4 on that but it's best if everyone takes a different part.
Miles, if you go do open mics or a weekly singer songwriter you get to where you can do songs all the way through. If you don't stay on it it does slip away though! It ain't easy. |
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Posts: 197
Location: Pennsylvania | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
Doesn't matter if they are covers or originals, I did not realize how much I rely on the "cues" of the vocal, and the other instruments of the tune to be able to play it.
... I was stuck without the backup vocals, the bassline, the keyboard parts etc. etc..
Frankly I was embarrassed and dumbfounded as I have been "practicing" many tunes for several months playing along with recordings of all of them... most without really missing a beat.
I just wondered if anyone else has run across this, or anything similar.... or will admit to it.
There is a CD and a couple of songs off another for which I worked out the guitar chords and I play along with the CDs. I can only play with the CDs. I couldn't play those songs without the instrumental and vocal cues to say my life.
As for jamming...we'll have to see how it goes. I've never played with anyone else before. Hmmm...maybe I shouldn't have disclosed that bit of info before the Joisey jam. lol |
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Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Being a ( part-time ) Busker , I am usually alone , others would complain about me being Too Fast/Loud/NotLoudEnough etc. , I do not care much for the Stage , yet , most buskers like gigging in venues.
I find it is too demanding , troublesome even ..
Ye`ve got to make deals , ehr " arrangements " , ye`ve got to show up on time , haul additional gear.
So I was " invited " to an Open Mic. , the " friend " who had invited me did not show up , I , with Git. and G-DEC felt like a right clown , my eldest son , who had come along , had a good laugh , hardly anyone in the place , drinks were costly , and of course , a big buxom female thought that I was cute , and wanted t` kiss me all the time .
Stage Work .. yes, WORK ! , is only when I`m persuaded ..
.." a plate is included , and food`s good .. and , they pay " .. Fine !
On the street , I`m my own Boss , show up when I feel like it , do what I feel like , leave when I feel like it ,.. can n`t remember a song ? .. no prob. , stitch a medley t`gether... in short :
No Pressure !
Hints :
A set of 15 - 20 min. will do .. then Leave , come back an hour or so later ( give the other guy a chance )
Five songs will do.
Gauge 12 - 54 is good ... 13 - 56 ( 57 ) is better.
Stand up , unless ye play classical.
Find a pitch with some acoustic properties , Open square is hard to play ( plus ye`re prone t` catchin` an ammonia )
Look sexy.
Vic |
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Posts: 1017
Location: Budd Lake, NJ | My earliest group musical experiences were singing in choirs and playing in grammar school bands; that makes me pretty ensemble-oriented. My guitar playing began with sitting around a campfire, watching the other two guitarists' chord positions like my life depended on it.
So, if there are others playing alongside me, it's more satisfying...but, playing at home by myself is where I occasionally find something that will hopefully contribute to my ensemble playing.
As for bluegrass, I rarely play cowboy chords--I much prefer the inversions.
(And a note to Anita: have no fear about the Jersey jam--it's not a competition to see who plays best, but a chance to enjoy each other's company...perhaps something like a pajama party with guitar accompaniment? ;) )
--Karen |
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Posts: 4833
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Everything I know is completely situation specific. Stuff I learned in various bands I only know in a band context. (I do not know or particularly follow Heavy Metal as a genre. But I played bass in a heavy metal band for a while....still have no idea what most of the stuff we played was. even the bits I sang harmony on. but a gig's a gig.)
Stuff I play as a solo...well if you want to play along you better read my mind cos the arrangement is all mine.
Just last weekend a buddy I played a duo with in the 70s & I jammed a few old and new tunes. He played back songs of mine he liked that I'd forgotten, I played him songs of his he'd forgotten that I like...it was funny. THAT stuff we played like long lost brothers, harmonies & all. The new tunes...not so much. (though I was always better than him at finding the contrapunctual fills....he's a much better musician)
In university I think it was called 'situational learning.' If you studied the material with a beer in your hand (I know it wasn't JUST me..) you better write the test with a beer buzz.
What you know is anchored in the way in which you know it. When people get divorced they often seem a little absentminded for a while. because they don't have that 'bounce' person.
"What was that place we went? that last time?"
"The one with the blonde you stared at?"
No, no,...the one with the CHeeeeSe...
Armstrong.
Yeah, yeah, Armstrong. |
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November 2005
Posts: 4833
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by darkbarguitar:
Been playing by myself for 30 years now. Don't worry. That's completely normal.
that's what the counsellor told me. |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Uh, Vic? Do I Have to Look Sexy?
[I agree with all the other points about 'Busking'... Play what I want when I want for as long as I want] |
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Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Uh, Vic? Do I Have to Look Sexy?
[I agree with all the other points about 'Busking'... Play what I want when I want for as long as I want] Looking like John Cena might help .. ;)
Ye know , there`s a lot more to it even ..
It`s a social event , I meet old friends , make new ones , and as soon a stranger ducks up with a Git. , I think.." Ah , fresh news from outer boundaries "..
I get to hear stuff , which is not t` be found in newspapers , and news travels fast .. like :
BeerFestival in Munich was Okay .. Paris was good .. ferget `bout London , the old Bill will have ya .. and Amsterdam .. heard about a guy who`s Git. was smashed by the wild brigade.
Become friends with street vendors even ..
Patrick , who`s a French guy making small bicycles, told about ROME , .. He`s had a tripod with a little plate on it , nice piece of velvet draped over it , some bike`s on it , pliers in one hand , wire in the other , when five uniforms showed up , one from behind took the pliers and wire , another took the tripod , another took his bag with paraphernalia , carried it all off without saying a word ..
Jock ( Scotland ) , who plays the SAX. , loves Paris , allways possible to find someone t` team up with , ..
Christmas is in a band now , doing stage -work , but misses the scene , hangs out whenever he can..
Even Bruce Springsteen has done a couple songs on one o` my pitches ( wonder if that clip is still on the TUBE )
Learn alot o` stuff , ofcourse there are those who think the world o`themselves , but ye`ll find those everywhere.
Interesting info and conversations , in Germany they appreciate it when ye throw in a German tune , in France throwing in a French tune is good , in the Netherlands they want to hear English .. and soforth..
Hitch Hiking is good in Germany , Netherlands , England ,.. but do n`t even try in France..
And skill of playing .. ? .., it`s rather easy t` find a friendly soul t` show ye how ..
Most o` us are an Amiable bunch ..
With my Boring Technical back ground , Busking suits me Fine ..
Vic |
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Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | So, Arthur , what`s buskin` like over at your part o` world.. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Sux! There is no Busking Tradition in Portland.
Y'See? I have been spoiled by the East Coast.
In Boston (Cambridge, actually) there were always musicians on the street.
And people supported them even if their music weren't that great.
In New York City, there were always people playing music, as well as doing stand-up comedy, and the 'original rappers*', in Washington Square Park.
In Boston, I was told by Buhn Po (Vietnamese street friend) that you can sit there with an open guitar case and play an air guitar and make money. (Then we did it just to prove him right)
In Harvard Square, there were some spots that Always had some guitarist playing. After one guy made enough money, another would take their place.
In NYC, I made money by accident while playing a Harmonica someone had given me.
Here, I have made alittle money. But mostly I have just been doing it to go out an play.
The money is just a way of keeping score.
(But soon I may have to do it for Rent and Food!)
*[In the 70's there used to be Revolutionary Poets who would 'rap' in Washington Square. Usually about Political Oppression and Social Injustice. As well as their Schizophrenic Ramblings about loneliness or their lost girlfriend or lesbian lover. Ofttimes to accompaniment by guitar or bongos.] |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | I've been spoiled by playing steadily with another person. Different guitar parts, leads, and harmonies keeps things interesting. When I'm by myself it can sound pretty thin. So I guess practice is my favorite playing time.
Tho I still really like sitting alone with some quiet strumming and fingerpicking. I like to drop my chin down on the top of the guitar to feel the vibration.
Although it's not my absolute favorite it's important for me to get up and play for people once in a while. It helps to improve my playing and singing in ways that a practice session cannot. It test's me a helps to push me on when I feel in a rut. And it in some way justifys the hours and hours of practice. If you never play for anyone it's like knowing a great joke and never telling it to anybody.
Every time I play in front of people or with other players, I learn something. Every... time. |
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October 2008
Posts: 489
| After having performed in bands, small groups and solo over the years, I prefer solo. It's just easier to get new material up and running, it's easier to shift gears on stage as the crowd or it's mood changes, and it cuts way the hell down on arguments within the band.
As for informal playing, I only care to jam with people at my own level. If I don't know the song I can throttle back, listen and provide what the other guy is not doing, and he can do the same with my songs. As for the fifteen person strum-alongs of Kumbaya, I'll just sit and watch.
I'm long over the "gig imperative" stage. My demos are out there. The phone rings often enough to keep me interested, but not so often that I want to change my number. |
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May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | I figure that I know the intro and half of the first verse to about 200 songs by memory. But Miles is right, sit down with a group and the rest just comes back no doubt trigger by other clues. |
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Posts: 1634
Location: Warren,Pa. | I have been the 2nd guitar with my 12string for as long as I've been playing with other people. My brain is wired to augment what the 1st guitar guy and the rest of the band is doing. It feels very strange to play by myself where others are going to sing and I am the only instrument. |
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August 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Miami | I like it both ways. Wait, that sounded wrong. I like playing in a band and going solo. My main preference is solo, though, for the following reasons:
- less personality conflicts (I only have to fight the voices in my head)
- less competing instruments (one voice, one guitar, and they get along fine)
- more money in the pocket
- more to Mr. Ovation's point, I really get to learn how to translate full covers into solo acoustic performances, capturing the nuances of bass, drums, backup vocals, you name it, into just one acoustic and one voice. It's a serious rush to find that songs that you would never think translate well actually do (if done right). |
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Location: Michigan | as a guitarwannabee all of my life i played in some bands when i was 14-15 years old and since then never again.
i am selfish on the songs i like to play and i do not like to play songs that i do not like so finding someone that has the exact same tastes as i do is almost impossible.
also finding someone who has about the same talent as you is very important to keep the sanity in a band or whatever.
thats my 2 cents on it. GWB |
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November 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Omaha, NE | Sometimes I'm solo, sometimes with a group. By and large, the most fun I have playing is with a group of pros. But there are certainly times when solo is nice. I have a lovely sounding Godin nylon string, and when I'm solo it gives me the opportunity to really let the delicious tone of the nylon come through.
Playing in groups is a highly variable thing for me. I just wrapped up a couple of years where I was the lead singer and guitar player in a three piece classic rock band. That was fun, but also pretty exhausting. There is a lot to cover in a situation like that.
What I really love is playing in a quality jazz ensemble. There is something totally liberating about not having to carry every part all the time. I find myself really attracted to what I might call "sparse" arrangements: Lots of minimalist parts carefully crafted to come together musically. A nice bass line, a carefully crafted piano part, delicate percussion, rational lead lines on top. Lovely.
Playing in church is a perpetual adventure. Our ensemble has members with significantly varied backgrounds and skill levels. One of the more challenging parts for me is we have another guitar player who strums chords on a 12 string. Nothing wrong with that, except that he will get lost from time to time and just stop, which makes the bottom fall out of the song. :: Sigh :: Nothing you can do except soldier on. |
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Location: Chicago | I don't consider myself much of a solo act. The solution for me was to find ONE musical "mate" (Jeff Burns) with whom to divide the entire musical pie: we choose or arrange tunes to be 50-50. Works pretty well! |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by dobro:
I don't consider myself much of a solo act. The solution for me was to find ONE musical "mate" (Jeff Burns) with whom to divide the entire musical pie: we choose or arrange tunes to be 50-50. Works pretty well! Uhhh....yeah. Sure seems to. :) |
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Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by dobro:
I don't consider myself much of a solo act. The solution for me was to find ONE musical "mate" (Jeff Burns) with whom to divide the entire musical pie: we choose or arrange tunes to be 50-50. Works pretty well! Gregg , You do n`t count as such Buddy !! ..
Every-one I could think of , would say ..
" so , how d`ya do that then " ..
whispering ..
" I wish I had his fingers " ..
Vic |
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September 2009
Posts: 1
Location: UK | I'm not a professional grade muso, never have been, never will be. I consider myself a 'competent campfire guitarist' though. I can't sing to save my life, but someone's gotta get the campers going.
So, to address the OP's question. I reckon I'm able to play probably 15 songs right through, maybe more - but in my own style and very few 'frilly' bits. Being able to play a bit of harmonica with the Neil Young songs helps.
Also, in the few 'jam bands' I've been involved with, I played bass. If you asked me what the chords were on those songs, I wouldn't have a clue. |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I can read rhythm charts and make stuff up on the fly pretty well. Ask me to sing along and then I'll have to work at it. |
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Posts: 355
Location: Wichita, KS | Originally posted by The Usual Suspects:
The absolute best is a group of competent players who can actually listen to what others are playing and complement each other musically by playing harmonies, melodic leads, and chord inversions. I saw an excellent example of this at the Guitar Town clinic. The six or seven featured artists played "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" and it was absolutely amazing.
As for myself, I am definitely better alone. When I was visiting ProfessorBB this summer, he said "Play something" and virtually everything I have memorized was right out the window. Big time choke. |
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Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Dale, I had the same experience at the Professor's this summer. When I did play something, he played along, just like he knew the second guitar part. Then he told me he had never heard the song before. I don't have another 50 years to practice so that I can get to his level. |
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November 2005
Posts: 4833
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | You don't need 50 years, just 10,000 hours!
Doesn't that seem so much more achievable?
3 hours a day, 7 days a week, 10 years....10,000 hours.
(okay, just a bit over. but y'gotta allow for sick days.) |
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September 2009
Posts: 144
Location: SW Washington | Arthur, please tell me it is not true! I lived in Portland in the late 70's and early 80's and back then Busking on the Seawall and at Saturday market was alive and well....please tell me my old beloved haunts have not died? Also I used to do some Busking on the concourses in PDX and a couple years ago I had the pleasure of listening to a lady playing hammered dulcimer there. She had all her CD's out for sale and some jewelry she made, etc. so it seems to be still allowed, but you may need some kind of permit. And, bear with me here...it was more than twenty minutes ago so my memory is not terribly clear, as I recall she was beyond the TSA search area too, but I am not for sure about that. God I miss Portland! I miss OREGON PERIOD!!!!! Okay, now I am homesick... :-( |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | David... The One Man Band, and the One-Armed Guitarist are still at the Saturday Market.
Along with that electric group at the Skidmore Fountain. (I have no reason to go to PDX)
But three or five buskers, two days a week is not an impressive amount.
(There is also that chick with the cup and the fishing pole "fishing for change")
We will also have the bag-pipers for St. Paddy's day and Christmas. The guys beating on assorted five-gallon buckets at Pioneer Place yuppie Mall, and the electric dude sometimes in front of Nordstrom's. Plus that dude with the acoustic guitar that I gave a gig-bag & strings to...
Oh, two fiddle players... One at the MAX station and one at Powell's Books.
Maybe I am expecting too much from a city with a half-million people in it.
But I should not be able to name most of the Buskers and count them on my fingers. |
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Posts: 766
Location: New Hampsha | I play all by my lonesome, except during the occasional lesson.
Similar to Dave, I know 15 chords, hundreds of riffs, 20 intros, 40 choruses, only 1 song all the way through (including the solo), but can't play anything without the music in front of me.
My guitars must be so dissapointed when they come to live with me because they are invariably so much better than I am...
On the other hand, I take great pleasure when I manage a correctly played chord (or even a few in a row!), and have no aspirations to live up to or get disappointed over.
I'm happy with it. |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
My guitars must be so dissapointed when they come to live with me because they are invariably so much better than I am...
On the other hand, I take great pleasure when I manage a correctly played chord (or even a few in a row!), and have no aspirations to live up to or get disappointed over.
I'm happy with it. Y` know , that`s the WRONG stance !!!
YOU Are the Craftsman .. YOU are the " gaffer ".
Make `em Do what You wanna do ( them gits.) .. Wrestle `em down .. Pummel `em into Submission ..
" Persevere and have Patience " .. and .. " Thou Shall Overcome " .
Vic |
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Posts: 2120
Location: Chicago | Love your spirit, Vic! |
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Posts: 335
Location: Reisterstown, Maryland | Originally posted by Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1:
(And a note to Anita: have no fear about the Jersey jam--it's not a competition to see who plays best, but a chance to enjoy each other's company...perhaps something like a pajama party with guitar accompaniment? ;) )
--Karen You must be reading my mind, Karen! :eek: :D |
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So how do you like to play?