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Location: Conroe, Texas | I have a '93 Collectors Ovation & the bridge is not perfectly centered on the top. Just wondering if that has much impact on the sound &, if so how. The distance from the center line of the top & the 6th string is 1 7/32" & to the 1st it is 31/32". Right at 1/4".
Ok, I ordered this '93 from a dealer & when it came in it had some problems with the epaulets lifting off the top & other issues, so I sent it to Ovation & they replaced it with this one. It was the only guitar I had, so I didn't bother to address this bridge issue. Now that I am getting into building guitars, the misalignment bothers me more. Think Ovation will do anything about it now?
kev |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | How are the strings on the fretboard? Are they crooked? If the bridge is off center, I would think your strings would be way inside the fretboard on one side and falling off the fretboard on the other. Can you show us some pictures? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | First, does it play well and sound intoned correctly?
Are the strings aligned along the fretboard correctly?
I know that an Acoustic bridge/saddle is not set up at a right angle to the neck, the bass strings are set back more.
Pictures would help a lot! |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Oh, forgot to mention that the neck is properly aligned to the bridge. Intonation & such are fine & the strings are centered properly. Looks like the whole neck/bridge installation was done correctly, except in it's relationship to the top center line. Will try to add a picture soon. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | When you say "Center Line"...
Do you mean the center of the body measured from binding to binding?
Or the center line being where the book-matched pieces come together? |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | 
Hope you can see the centerline of the top.
You can see that the neck is set a bit off from parallel with the edge of the body, but properly aligned to the bridge. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | That's normal. Usually when the bookmatch doesn't quite line up they designate those for black finishes. Sand down a black guitar sometime and you'll be amazed what you might find. |
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Location: SoCal | It looks like you're judging the placement of the bridge on the grain, the cut of the bookmatch, and/or the cutaway, none of which should be your criteria for saying the bridge is placed in the wrong place.
The neck is attached to the body in a very precise way. I've never seen one attached incorrectly. The bridge is attached to the top very precisely. I've never seen one attached incorrectly.
I assume that you're not talking about the angle of the saddle which is also correct.
As long as the guitar intonates and plays correctly, then you can assume that everything is right. Don't judge by the placement of the bridge in relation to the grain in the wood or the line of the bookmatched top.
If it drives you nuts then you're listening to your guitar with your eyes. Not a good thing.... |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
It looks like you're judging the placement of the bridge on the grain, the cut of the bookmatch, and/or the cutaway, none of which should be your criteria for saying the bridge is placed in the wrong place.
The neck is attached to the body in a very precise way. I've never seen one attached incorrectly. The bridge is attached to the top very precisely. I've never seen one attached incorrectly.
I assume that you're not talking about the angle of the saddle which is also correct.
As long as the guitar intonates and plays correctly, then you can assume that everything is right. Don't judge by the placement of the bridge in relation to the grain in the wood or the line of the bookmatched top.
If it drives you nuts then you're listening to your guitar with your eyes. Not a good thing.... The 6th string is 5" from the upper side & the 1st string is 5 1/4" from its side & it appears that the top joint is 1/8" closer to the lower side. That tells me that the bridge is not placed in the center of the top! Yes, the neck is set properly in relation to the bridge/saddle placement. On another forum a luthier just informed that the difference in the sound would be negligible & likely too much work to fix for Ovation to do the work under warranty. |
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Location: on the web | The upper bouts are asymmetrical in a cutaway. If your contention is that the bridge is off-center, why in the world would you measure (first) the string distance (and second) way up there? Put a straight-edge butt up against the top of the bridge, then measure from each edge of the bridge to where the straight-edge intersects the lower bout, where the bout is curving in toward the waist. You won't find any difference in either of those measurements. Your eye is fooling you because the joint line for the two halves of the top is not the true center-line of the body. |
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Location: SoCal | Look, the neck is attached to the body, not the top, with the K-bar. It's very very precise -- 2 bolts for the attachment.
Send an email to the factory and see what they say. If you still are bugged by the guitar, sell it and buy a Taylor. They look great. Sound like thin dog spoo, but they look great.... |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Look, the neck is attached to the body, not the top, with the K-bar. It's very very precise -- 2 bolts for the attachment.
Send an email to the factory and see what they say. If you still are bugged by the guitar, sell it and buy a Taylor. They look great. Sound like thin dog spoo, but they look great.... Look, you seem to take this personally! I know how to use measuring tools, so regardless of what you say about the precision of the K-bar, this one is off! This was just an educational opportunity for me to understand the implications of this situation. I have learned that it doesn't make much difference in the sound & that you don't know EVERYTHING! |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by The Usual Suspects:
The upper bouts are asymmetrical in a cutaway. If your contention is that the bridge is off-center, why in the world would you measure (first) the string distance (and second) way up there? Put a straight-edge butt up against the top of the bridge, then measure from each edge of the bridge to where the straight-edge intersects the lower bout, where the bout is curving in toward the waist. You won't find any difference in either of those measurements. Your eye is fooling you because the joint line for the two halves of the top is not the true center-line of the body. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by bugeyed:
Originally posted by The Usual Suspects:
The upper bouts are asymmetrical in a cutaway. If your contention is that the bridge is off-center, why in the world would you measure (first) the string distance (and second) way up there? Put a straight-edge butt up against the top of the bridge, then measure from each edge of the bridge to where the straight-edge intersects the lower bout, where the bout is curving in toward the waist. You won't find any difference in either of those measurements. Your eye is fooling you because the joint line for the two halves of the top is not the true center-line of the body. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Yes... and How does it Sound?
Do your fingers and the high-e string slip off of the fretboard?
How long have you had the guitar?
How long has that top been like that?
I understand what you are saying but, If it not a problem... What's the Problem? |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Yes... and How does it Sound?
Do your fingers and the high-e string slip off of the fretboard?
How long have you had the guitar?
How long has that top been like that?
I understand what you are saying but, If it not a problem... What's the Problem? Sounds fine, had it since '93, been that way since '93 & it's not a problem since a luthier on AGF assured me that the sound should not be impacted. The responses on this forum have been mostly about how Ovation cannot make such an error. I am finished responding to this thread & will leave those who believe in Ovation's infallibility to their fantasies. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Well this is an ovation enthusiasts forum so you should expect some blind loyalty on the subject.
The main thing is that a luthier from the AGF said it was ok and we know that any information coming from that site is perfect and infallible.
CLICK |
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Location: Whitecourt, Ab | Welcome bugeyed,
I'm not sure if this will help, but it may open up some possibility. I've been told when placing a bridge on a guitar a luthier will "tone tap" the top to find the best location for the bridge in terms of best possible tonal vibration and response. I always assumed that meant forwards and backwards, and not side to side, but the possibility is there, that this one sounded better 1/8 of an inch more off centre than directly on centre. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Hi bugeyed,
Could you post a clear picture of the top that shows the whole top. It would be easier I think to get perspective if we could see the top, neck and bridge in one photo.
Thanks |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | As much as we love the work they do at the factory, nobody tone-taps anything. |
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Location: SoCal | Gee, guess I drove somebody away by knowing everything.... |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | Aw great, Paul. Nice going. Now i bet the whole place'll fall apart. |
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Location: Tennessee |  |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Does it work on mother's in law??? |
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Location: SoCal | Sure they work... but Paul worked his hands free and was able to reach the keyboard through the bars. |
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Location: SoCal | seriously...
Originally posted by Gallerinski:
That's normal. Usually when the bookmatch doesn't quite line up they designate those for black finishes. Sand down a black guitar sometime and you'll be amazed what you might find. Welcome Kev, Come back and post a photo as Mr.O suggested. Your criticism is just, but maybe a few years too late. Typically, we expect to have the seam of a bootmatched top fall along the center-line of the guitar. Even if the intention was there, no one guarantees it, especially if function is not compromised. You are just getting into building them yourself and it is so much more apparent to you now. Upon initially receiving the guitar, I'd view it as a valid cosmetic issue worth addressing. Now after living with it for so long, cherish it as an example of what not to do. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
Hi bugeyed,
Could you post a clear picture of the top that shows the whole top. It would be easier I think to get perspective if we could see the top, neck and bridge in one photo.
Thanks OK, FWIW I tried to keep paralax from being a factor in these pix. Hope you can see clearly. Sorry about the arm rest, but it ain't comin' off. Now, I am not pursuing any answers any longer. The original question, sound impact, was answered, so these shots are posted for informational purposes only & because I was asked to. I love my Ovation & the company. That was never in question!
Oops, forgot to include the neck in the shot. It's set perfectly with the bridge though. That was never an issue. Here's one of the side cutaway & the way the neck is angled a bit.
Thanks all,
kev |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Wow... that is really off!
M(sorry to wonder)Woody |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | kev,
Thanx for hangin' in 'dere with us! We really do appreciate legitimate 'O' questions and the pics.
Hang around... ya got the attitude that's appreciated when the pressure is on! Oh yeah, BTW, welcome to the 'feeding frenzy'...  |
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| Bugeyed,
you can't win against these "expert luthiers of supreme plastic". Don't even try. They have all the answers before you even prove them wrong.
Build your own guitars. Out of real wood. You'll end up far happier. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by joesurf:
Bugeyed,
you can't win against these "expert luthiers of supreme plastic". Don't even try. They have all the answers before you even prove them wrong.
Build your own guitars. Out of real wood. You'll end up far happier. I'd build one out of composites if I could. Played a CA OX Raw finish & it sounded great! I do like my O though. At least I don't have to worry about it quite as much as the Lowden when playing outside. Now, the CA I could play in the rain??? Like I would want to. |
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| Good idea.
Play with the plastic in the rain
Save the real guitar for sunny days |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by joesurf:
Build your own guitars. Out of real wood. You'll end up far happier. May we have some pics of your "happier" builds? |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Originally posted by joesurf:
Build your own guitars. Out of real wood. You'll end up far happier. May we have some pics of your "happier" builds? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | they sound better when they are made that way |
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Location: Colorado | Dave, I tried sanding the black paint off my Adamas and never found the wood grain. :D |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Hey bugeyed,
I was hoping for a full top photo. From where the neck attaches to the end. As straight on as you can get. That will show any neck skew, alignment, etc etc.. Thanks |
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Location: Utah | Looking at and measuring my '07C, the bridge is similarly "off center". The book matching line of the two top pieces of wood goes right down the middle of the bridge, so the bridge appears at a casual glance to be perfectly centered in the guitar, though it is not.
So I would say that your bridge is properly placed as compared to other Ovations. The line between the two pieces of wood doesn't match perfectly to the bridge on your guitar. Is that line centered to the edges of the guitar?
I'm guessing that the book matching is centered and the bridge is properly placed with respect to the neck. The off center look is an optical illusion. Whether it is an aesthetic fault would be in the eye of the beholder.
Beal says it sounds better made that way, but he ran a gas station before becoming a wandering minstrel and so I might defer to JoeSurf who seems to know so much more about "real guitars". :rolleyes: |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by Todd G.:
Dave, I tried sanding the black paint off my Adamas and never found the wood grain. :D Keep sanding. You'll find it, right under that nasty coat of carbon fibre. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by FlySig:
snip
So I would say that your bridge is properly placed as compared to other Ovations. The line between the two pieces of wood doesn't match perfectly to the bridge on your guitar. Is that line centered to the edges of the guitar?
I'm guessing that the book matching is centered and the bridge is properly placed with respect to the neck. The off center look is an optical illusion. Whether it is an aesthetic fault would be in the eye of the beholder.
snip I think if you look at the second set of pictures, you will see that the bridge is not centered on the top. Regardless of where the top joint is. Even if it's not true, I am going to go with the theory that the builder tap tuned the top & then studied the Chladni patterns & placed the bridge accordingly. ;)
Cheers,
kev |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Welcome Bugeyed. On another topic, what do you think of the armrest? I don't recall much discussion about them on these boards. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
Welcome Bugeyed. On another topic, what do you think of the armrest? I don't recall much discussion about them on these boards. I love the John Pearse rest. I have a homemade version on my Lowden S10 & it makes a huge difference. The top sings much louder when my forearm is not damping the vibration. If your arm doesn't contact the top, I don't know if it would be useful, except maybe to soften the edge a bit. They stick pretty well too, so mine are considered permanent. Do a test for yourself by strumming without touching the top & then let your forearm lay across the top. You should hear the difference. YMMV |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Thanks, Bugeye. Makes logical sense from my lay perspective. Maybe one of our member engineers will jump in here and add further comment. Does it attach to the side, therefore avoiding contact with the top? My gigs are all plugged in, so dampened top vibration is not so much a concern for me. I was thinking purely about comfort. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
Hey bugeyed,
I was hoping for a full top photo. From where the neck attaches to the end. As straight on as you can get. That will show any neck skew, alignment, etc etc.. Thanks Here ya go. Not sure if it shows what you're looking for. As I mentioned before, the neck is set properly in relation to the bridge.
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I was all excited to get me one of those MuzzleMates but the website doesn't exist : ( |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | The strap button looks to be properly aligned with the bridge as well, not that it makes any difference. Bugeyed, your eyes and sense of proportion are most certainly better than mine. I don't see any issues whatsoever. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
Thanks, Bugeye. Makes logical sense from my lay perspective. Maybe one of our member engineers will jump in here and add further comment. Does it attach to the side, therefore avoiding contact with the top? My gigs are all plugged in, so dampened top vibration is not so much a concern for me. I was thinking purely about comfort. The rest mounts with a double sided tape along the edge of the top. Right where the edge & side meet. The rest is hollow underneath & only touches the top along the edge. The vibration of the top is not impacted 'cause under that area is the kerf strip on an all wood guitar & the O bowl has a lip for the top to glue to. |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
The strap button looks to be properly aligned with the bridge as well, not that it makes any difference. Bugeyed, your eyes and sense of proportion are most certainly better than mine. I don't see any issues whatsoever. ??? The strap button is most certainly not aligned with the bridge. It is close to being aligned with the top seam, & that is not aligned with the bridge either. It's a moot point though, as the original question was whether this obviously misaligned bridge (illustrated by the pictures with the ruler) would effect the sound. I have been assured that it doesn't. |
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| Bug- on a finely crafted guitar the bridge would be mounted centered. Everthing should line up even. Not so on lower end models, even lower end wood boxes (import Martin, Gibsons, etc). Go to any store and measure the Ibanez, Takamine, Yamaha bridges....they won't be perfect I guarantee. Don't expect it of an Ovation either. |
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Location: Atlanta, GA. | Don't tell me. Let me guess. You play a...
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | No, I think he plays Gibsons. Nothing wrong with an OLD Gibson. It's just the newer ones that have dragged the Gibson name down. Kinda reminds me of the Norlin years when no one seemed to know how to make a good sounding, playable guitar. It's a shame. I used to have several older Gibsons. Now, when I want to play a wood box I play one of my Morgan Monroes. Great workmanship, great sound, and so easy on the fingers. But for the jazz stuff I usually play, it's either and Adamas or an Ovation because NO ONE can duplicate the beautiful sound of an O or A with just a touch of chorus through a Crate acoustic amp.
Come to think of it, maybe the troll googled "Gibson illegal rosewood" and found the thread on this forum about it. I think the troll might be Henry himself! From everything I've read and heard, he is a borderline nut-case. Trolling on other guitar forums sounds right up his alley. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It looks to me like the bridge is turned a couple degrees clockwise, looking at it in your birdseye view picture. The strings aren't perpendicular to the front of the bridge. The angle at the top of the picture is more than 90 degrees and at the bottom is less. The saddle seems OK, but that is hard for me to measure. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | bugeyed -
Original question was VERY valid in my opinion; if one of my guitars was skewed as your photos show, I would also wonder if that would affect the sound quality.
The comments asking how it sounds are absurd to me. Can any of those members pick up a guitar and know if it's "right" without having another of the exact model without an offset bridge on hand to compare it to?
As for the visual aspect - I'm afraid that would simply drive me crazy. Although others say that only the sound is important, I enjoy the look of a guitar as well as the sound. I've played a number guitars that sounded wonderful, but I would never own one simply because I didn't like the way they "looked." I believe that's true for most people. Do I "listen to my guitars with my eyes?" No, but the overall package IS important -sound, look and feel all come into play with me at least.
I'm glad you found the problems shouldn't make a difference in the sound; you can now sell it in good conscience and get another Ovation that more care went into during construction.
I know that's what I would do. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I bet the neck is mounted cockeyed and the bridge is placed in line with the neck, so the whole thing is a bit off skew.
I wouldn't worry about it. Especiially 16 years after the fact. Ovation builds a lot of guitars and sometimes are a bit "off" in certain ways. If you had the original "QC" hang tag I would LOVE to see the initials on it. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Couldn't have been one of mine. I was long gone by '93. But even if you saw the hang tag, it wouldn't have initials. We each had our own stamps with numbers on them. I was "75". |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Hey all,
Just heard from bugeyed that he's no longer able to post! The message partially read, "the board administrators have removed your ability to post to this board."
I assume this is only an administrative snafu?
Or was there something he said in this thread that would cause a vacation? Al, Miles you have always seemed to me to be clear and public if someone steps out of line, can you check and see what the problem really is? |
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Location: Conroe, Texas | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
I bet the neck is mounted cockeyed and the bridge is placed in line with the neck, so the whole thing is a bit off skew.
I wouldn't worry about it. Especiially 16 years after the fact. Ovation builds a lot of guitars and sometimes are a bit "off" in certain ways. If you had the original "QC" hang tag I would LOVE to see the initials on it. Ok, I'm back! :confused:
Yes, you got it. I tried to say that all along, but many denied the possibility. I would have thought, though, that Ovation would have taken a bit more care building a Collectors Edition. Anyway, we move on & I have certainly been entertained by all the lively discussion. BTW I looked at all the hand tags & didn't see a QC tag. Darn!
Cheers,
kev |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | FYI... I'm closing this topic as I think it's run it's course.. all opinions are in etc... |
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Ovation bridge is not centered on top.