|
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Hey guys, new to the forum. I just put new strings on my Balladeer special and a week later, I'm guessing the string tension caused the entire bridge to lift up and separate. It's completely off now. I got it two weeks ago...not from a dealer so there couldn't be any warranty for this, I'm sure.
I'm so frustrated. I'm thinking I could either apply some epoxy or gorilla glue and clamp it down with a few c-clamps. The separation is fairly clean but I know gorilla glue foams up and makes a big mess. Or, maybe install a few screws to hold it down.
Anyone else ever have this problem? I put Elixir light gauge strings on there...are they THAT high tension??? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2009
Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | Welcome to the forum! You did the right thing by coming here. Most importantly, "do no harm." Before you do anything else, why don't you post a couple of pictures of your situation. There are several luthiers on the forum whom I sure can give you sound advice (no pun intended). I'd hold off on the Gorilla glue.
Good luck! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Bought some gorilla glue but I can't find any c-clamps deep enough to secure the bridge. I won't do anything until I get some further advice. Pics to come. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | I can't figure out how to post pics here but here's what I'm up against:
http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/Scottpro1969/?action=view&... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2009
Posts: 686
Location: Route 66, just east of the Cadillac Ranch | I'm suprised others haven't chimed in. If it were mine, I'd find a local luthier for the repair. They'll prepare the surfaces and reattach it with the proper adhesive using clamps designed for this. All this while insuring the intonation is correct. I'm not sure what model your guitar is, but from what little I can see in the picture, it looks to be a nice instrument. That's my recommendation. BTW, I don't think the strings had anything to do with the failure. Lots of folks on this forum use Elixers. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR |  
And, OOOOoooo! That was a 'wood failure' not a 'glue failure' |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: Warren,Pa. | This is a Guitar Center Baladeer Special with a Cedar top (I'm guessing there's a "GC" somewhere in the model #). It also looks like the new method of attaching the bridge, where they skim the finish off the top and undercut the edge of the bridge. Indeed...the glue joint didn't fail; the Cedar pulled apart. If this guitar was mine, I would send those pics to John or Kim in the service dept. and have a phone conversation about it. Their way is ALWAYS the best!
If I had to do it myself, I would remove the 2 locating pins from the bridge, drill the holes all the way through the bridge, and drill down through the top and the bridge plate. Then I'd glue and clamp the bridge. After it dries, I'd drill a countersink in the 2 holes, install screws, fender washers and nuts, and cover the screws with Abalone dots. How does that sound to ya'all?
John <>{
P.S.- That is a very nice piece of Cedar! Hope you get it up and running again and enjoy it for the rest of your life. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2008
Posts: 747
| Mine lifted worse than that and the local authorized repair place fixed it. They installed a new bridge and you can't tell that any work was done.
I'd suggest having it repaired professionally. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Thank you so much for the suggestions...the problem is, I'm in North Dakota...and there aren't any reputable shops/luthiers that I have to take it to.
I might call Ovation and see what they say. I'm so bummed. This is a really nice guitar. As far as the Guitar Center special designation, you're right. The serial number starts with GC. If I knew it was a GC special I wouldn't have bought it..lol. I can't stand Guitar Center. I got this guitar in a partial trade.
Enough of that, back to the guitar....I do have glue, and I can order the proper clamps from StewMac. If I can fix it myself without paying to ship both ways to someone...that seems like the most likely option...that is, unless you think Ovation would fix it for me.
I've never dealt with Ovation CS so...I don't know. The only other Ovation I ever owned was a Melissa Etheridge sig 12 string which I kick myself every day for selling.
Again, thank you all for the responses...keep 'em coming. I'm not going to touch this until this thread is exhausted. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | bauerhillboy...thank you for your very informative response....I was thinking along those lines. You're talking my language. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | OldManArthur, thank you so much for posting my pics on the forum. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | BHB's advice about installing countersunk bolts, nuts and washers sound good to me.
That I what the Poor Man would do.
But I would contact Kim Keller at the factory and ask their advice.
If you did good in Wood Shop it may be possible to fix it yourself.
Kim and them would have advice on proper glue to use.
Also I would wait on professional and semi-professional advice on whether to remove the top wood from the underside of the bridge, or just glue it the way it is.
[Obviously the glue held, so I might just glue it the way it is...]
Also, experienced people could recommend which glue to use... I wouldn't use Gorilla Glue.
Contact Cement? Hide Glue? Elmer's Wood Glue? Crazy Glue? They are all possibilities.
And the bolts and the abalone dots may make it look like a Celebrity...
But that is how they did it in the old daze!
(1121-1 Artist) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2008
Posts: 1456
Location: Texas | Hey Scottpro1969,
Welcome aboard…
I wonder if the person you got it from was aware that the bridge was lifting? Did it have strings (tuned to pitch) on it when you got it? If not, maybe they were hiding something?
I hate to imply that there was any subterfuge, since that certainly could have happened very suddenly. However, sometimes there are warning signs of of the bridge lifting before it tears all the way loose like that. If so, they should have mentioned that to you in advance… |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | standing,
There wasn't any maliciousness...thank you for the welcome. Bad timing on my part, I'm sure of it. I'll get it fixed one way or another...thanks. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2009
Posts: 143
Location: Ontario Canada | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
BHB's advice about installing countersunk bolts, nuts and washers sound good to me.
That I what the Poor Man would do.
But I would contact Kim Keller at the factory and ask their advice.
If you did good in Wood Shop it may be possible to fix it yourself.
Kim and them would have advice on proper glue to use.
Also I would wait on professional and semi-professional advice on whether to remove the top wood from the underside of the bridge, or just glue it the way it is.
[Obviously the glue held, so I might just glue it the way it is...]
Also, experienced people could recommend which glue to use... I wouldn't use Gorilla Glue.
Contact Cement? Hide Glue? Elmer's Wood Glue? Crazy Glue? They are all possibilities.
And the bolts and the abalone dots may make it look like a Celebrity...
But that is how they did it in the old daze!
(1121-1 Artist)
This is good advice on just regluing the bridge as is. The cedar will fit nicely into where it came from. Just one more thing...I would add another bolt in between the two, making an even better job just like my 1615-4 twelve string.
The difference in the density of the cedar and spruce tops really shows. Up in your area don't let the coldness affect the tuning going sharp on you by slacking off the strings if you leave the instrument in the trunk while going from A to B. Definately take the guitar to bed with you at night. :)
Regards
Jim |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12761
Location: Boise, Idaho | Howdy. I lived in Carrington in the 60s. Played in a high school state sand greens golf tournament in Minot. Lotsa cold wide open spaces. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Hahaha Mark...the Dakota's are beautiful, my friend. I love the winters here, though I grew up i New England. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by bauerhillboy:
If I had to do it myself, I would remove the 2 locating pins from the bridge, drill the holes all the way through the bridge, and drill down through the top and the bridge plate. Then I'd glue and clamp the bridge. After it dries, I'd drill a countersink in the 2 holes, install screws, fender washers and nuts, and cover the screws with Abalone dots. How does that sound to ya'all?
ABSOLUTELY !!
.. and that`s exactly how my ancient 1537 .. 1617 .. 1618 were made , .. and , incidentally why steel`s are not to be mounted on classic gits. , ... either the glue " gives " , or the wood splinters , as ye have noticed .. Glue & Bolt it !! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | If I was going to glue that back on I would use slow cure epoxy. Although I've never glued a bridge on a guitar, I've fixed a LOT of broken model airplanes. When the wood separates like that it is pretty much a self-indexing repair. It should slip right back to where it came from pretty much exactly, as long as you don't mess with either surface it should fit back perfectly. I would test fit it in place & move it around until it feels like it fits solidly & put a piece of making tape on each end, taping it in place. Carefully mask the area around the bridge as closely as possible. Slice the tape carefully from the ends & remove the bridge. Mix up 'a little too much' slow epoxy in a plastic cup or spray can lid. Anything that will keep it from running all over. Be sure to use SLOW epoxy, at least 1 hour, the slower the better. Warm it up with a hair dryer. It will become as thin as water when it's warm enough. It won't take long. Heating will make the epoxy kick faster than advertised, that's one reason for the slow stuff. Brush the thin epoxy on both surfaces with an acid brush or small disposable paintbrush, don't be stingy, try to push it into the wood with the brush. Cover both surfaces completely. Heat it a little more if need be but don't dawdle. You want enough of that hot thin epoxy to wick into that open wood and saturate it as much as possible. Clamp it in place & wipe away whatever oozes out with some rubbing alcohol on paper towels. This may be necessary several times. The slow thin hot epoxy will have time to soak into the wood grain before it starts to cure & will make an extremely strong joint. This should strengthen the wood enough that you shouldn't need anything else. Mike Woody may know a better way. Leave it alone for 24 hours.
All that having been said, if it was mine it would be on it's way to see Kim Keller. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Michigan | I agreee with everything Nils said except the epoxy. It does not look like the glue failed. A good wood might soak into the grain a bit better hand hence do its job. Wood glue was meant to soak into both parts creating a solid joint. I have had mixed results with epoxy and wood but you are correct about the slow set epoxy. The slower the set the less likely it is to be affected by heat or cold. I did use a 24 hour expoxy on my recurve bow I made but it had laminations of fiberglass. I cured it a 200 degrees for 24 hours to make it less likely to delaminate in heat. I think the key might be the screws (or bolts) ala BHB's advise. Or a luthier worth his wood can fix it in a jiffy. Best option would be the mothership. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2003
Posts: 65
Location: Connecticut | In a case like this, I'd probably remove the bridge completely and sand all of the cedar that is still attached to it off. It'll leave a decent size gap between the top and bridge so I would use a 2 part 5 minute epoxy that'll fill the gap. Prefit everything to see that it all goes back together easily and don't forget to tape over the pickup wire hole from inside. You'll need deep throated clamps to reach that far. Mix your epoxy and have a chisel shaped tongue depressor type stick ready for cleaning squeeze out. With a clean soft rag and alcohol you should be able to clean the top without too much of a mess. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Gorilla glue would be a poor choice. Holds great but that foaming action is a real drawback.
.
Looks like a clean break. Personally, I would not do the chisel / remove the wood thing.
.
If you think you got the skills, have at it.
If you don't think you do then you have to find a luthier within driving reach or send it somewhere. If you have to send it somewhere you won't do better that the factory.
.
I might be mistaken but it seems like at least one other member had the same issue with his cedar top. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Yeah, I think there have been a couple of cedar tops losing their bridges mentioned in recent threads.
I would call/email Kim at the Mothership to get his advice first, especially regarding the method of repair. A good local luthier should be able to fix it easily, but the factory will know the right kind of glue and whether to sand the bottom of the bridge.
In my opinion, I would not sand anything. A good wood glue would be my choice as it is made for the job and will make a joint stronger than the wood. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I would follow DaveO's advice to the letter. The man has lots of experience working on Ovations ;) (and Guilds and many others). If anyone should know how best to do this, Dave is the man! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 2793
Location: Atlanta, GA. | Wow! And Dave's advice was almost directly opposite of other member's suggestions (which was sounding OK to my inexperience).
Just goes to show... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | The reason I endorse Dave's advice is that *I used to work with him at a really great guitar factory* and I know for certain that he has LOTS of experience with this. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Very true.
I'm just thinkin' that it might take a guy with Dave's experience to do it that way. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Another good reason to send it back to the factory. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2178
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | If you decide to do it yourself....buy your deep throat bridge clamps from Grizzly.com ....I bought 3 (including freight) for $12.73 ea. (Stew-mac get $24.95 ea. before freight)
I drilled and tapped the bottoms of each one for attaching different cauls...I also painted them to dress up the shop some! ;)
I recently reglued a bridge on an old (early '70's) Epiphone guitar.
I sanded the bridge smooth and used Original Titebond (recomended by a lot of luthiers...Including Frank Ford ~ www.frets.com)
I also added two more screws to the original one! :D That bridge ain't goin' nowheres....
You can see more pics of the bridge fix here at my .ning page |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Michigan | Nice! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2178
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | I've just added more pics with comments to my bridge fix album showing the whole process....
Please take (another) look if you'd like.
Thanks |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Outstanding pictorial!!! 
How 'bout a pic of the adhesive container and applicator? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2178
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Originally posted by 2ifbyC:
Outstanding pictorial!!!
How 'bout a pic of the adhesive container and applicator? 
The above pic is the adhesive & container....And I guess I would be the applicator? (the guitar & bridge would be the applicatee? :rolleyes: :D )
Sorry I didn't take a picture of actually applying the glue because I'm usually in a hurried panic at glue-up time....no time to take pics!
I applied a generous amount to both the bridge and guitar....(a lot more than was originally on the bridge from the factory!) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | TRboy,
Thanks for that!! I was considering the StewMac clamps! I think I'm probably going to end up doing the fix myself. I'm not scared...lol. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 2793
Location: Atlanta, GA. | Nice job TR.
I applied a generous amount to both the bridge and guitar....(a lot more than was originally on the bridge from the factory!)
They were pretty skimpy with the original glue up, weren't they! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2178
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Originally posted by Scottpro1969:
TRboy,
Thanks for that!! I was considering the StewMac clamps! I think I'm probably going to end up doing the fix myself. I'm not scared...lol. Yeah! Have No Fear!.... :D
Re-reading your original post I like to suggest a few things.
1)Lose the Gorilla glue
2)Use bolts instead of screws
3)Think through every step before committing
4)Have Fun!
Grizzly also has Luthier supplies
Correction: I said I used 4mm pearl dots ~ I actually used 6.35mm dots (1/4") I drilled the holes 4mm deep!
Post us some pics and good luck! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 2178
Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Originally posted by cholloway:
....They were pretty skimpy with the original glue up, weren't they! Yep! Looks like they just ran a bead down the middle and clamped it up! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2008
Posts: 39
| I have never fixed a bridge before, so as always, I always turn to several places for advice on changes to my guitars.
1. My local luthier
2. This (and other) guitar discussion boards
3. Online websites (Stew-Mac might have advice as well as tools to do the job)
and, finally, and always...
3. Consult a reference book
Have you looked at Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player's Repair Guide? I just bought a new copy (3rd Edition) from Amazon for just under $20. I find lots of good info in there. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Hey everyone,
I never got around to fixing the bridge problem. I'd like to send this to someone that would like to buy it and fix it up properly. I don't have the time, or skill to fix it.
I got this guitar in a trade and am not sure what it's worth. I know the posting guidelines state that a price must be posted so...
It includes a Road Runner hard shell case that fits it perfectly..perfect condition. A forum member has stated that these were specifically made for Guitar Center because the serial number has a GC in front of it.
Other than the bridge being separated the guitar is in perfect condition.
I can't find much about this model on the web but other Ovation Special's seem to sell for $650.
Let's say $300 shipped anywhere in continental USA. PayPal is fine. I'll include the new set of Elixir Nanoweb strings that I had just installed before the bridge let go.
Check this thread, sounds like an easy fix. I have excellent feedback on both Ebay and TalkBass. I can easily provide references for anyone.
If anyone wants additional pictures from what are included in this thread please let me know.
Scott |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Shoot, how do you delete a post??? I posted this guitar for sale in the wrong place. Moderators, I apologize. I just posted it in the For Sale section. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Well, I've had a change of heart. I'm going to do the repair after all. I ordered the clamps from Grizzly's tonight and will be contemplating how to go about this until they arrive.
I'm scared to drill holes into the bridge. It's such a thin piece of wood I'm afraid it will crack but TRboy's pictorial has me wanting to do it that way.
Thanks for all of the help and support here guys! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 698
Location: Cork, Ireland | Stories like these are so scary! Somehow seems worse when it just happens, at least if a guitar gets dropped and breaks or sat on, you can put it down to carelessness.
'Touch wood' as we say around here. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Well I got the clamps today and decided to use plain old Elmer's carpenters glue. I put a liberal amount of glue to the bottom of the bridge and the body, clamped it and wiped away the excess as best I could. I will be drilling and installing bolts to both sides of the bridge for extra support. I'm hoping this works!
 |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | I just love working on guitars and learning the in's and out's of them. Luthier work is fascinating to me. Bass is my main instrument but there is nothing more satisfying than doing a set-up or repair of your own guitar (to me). It makes the guitar "yours."
So I'll keep everyone informed how this turns out. I'm expecting it will be fine. Again, thank you for all of your advise and help. It's been immeasurable! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | Just an update. It's been over a week and the guitar is perfect. The bridge is not going ANYWHERE. I'm so glad I kept her and decided to do the fix myself. This guitar is a keeper! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2010
Posts: 19
Location: Minot AFB, ND | I just want to thank everyone for all of their encouragement and ideas again. This place is invaluable. Now I'm wanting a 12 string.
I owned a Melissa Etheridge edition Adamas about 5 years ago and kick myself for letting that go. That was the most amazing sounding guitar I've ever played. |
|
| |
Balladeer bridge separated