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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I had planned to add this as a post on another thread: but this has been bothering me for some time and so here goes:
Someone mentioned that Ovation should cater to finger-style players? I believe they have done that several times in the past if memory serves me correctly (or at least offered a choice). For whatever reason (choose one and insert here) it hasn't maintained saleability from the corporate bottom line. My take on neck width is simple: different strokes for different folks...
In the past several years, I have noticed that the buzz word here on this Ovation forum seems to be instead instruments which are built by a small Texas company having no relationship w/Ovation (Now don't get your panties in a twist,they make outstanding instruments!! One day, I'd love to own one.) Point is, many of them have wide necks: and are favored by a few influential folks here who are not only great folks but also friends of mine. (And this is not meant to say their choices are not good ones: goodness, they are the owners of their guitars and are entitled to be proud of them). For the most part, Ovations as a rule do not: I.E. the other guitars possess a coolness factor (whatever the heck that is)...and currently, Ovations don't.
But from a O corp point of view (if O corp is reading and watching this forum: Hi Folks!) the question might be who would buy them?...Just a general reading of the archives to a new reader seems to suggest that an ever growing number of folks on this forum seem to think that the "lil 'ol guitar from Austin Texas" is THE guitar to own: and since the demographics point to Ovations being played/purchased primarily by women and praise music players (according to one of our administrators who seems to know these things) and our friends in Europe (who are very adapt at the thumb pick style) choose both size neck widths (of course the wider is favored), there would seem to be some confusion at the corp table...Look at the history: seemingly the few they have come out with in the recent past have plowed quickly enough that they were dropped from the line...even though they seem to be truly popular among some of the players on this forum...for the most part, Geez, I just don't see it happening from the corp viewpoint...
I do really like the several wide-necks I own (non-O's) and I play them regularly...I also really like my regular/narrow necked guitars...different strokes for different folks...and different songs/styles/genres of music. My O's and A's get played more than any other guitars I own and I mean in public; not just in the living room...I take the time to explain to the many questioners what the guitar I am playing is made of; where it is made; the history behind it; why it is made the way it is; etc. I do it because I love the guitars!
Anything aimed at mass public appeal would be refreshing at this point...But forgive me but unless I missed the fact that the world's guitar players have all become tattooed death inspired gore and violence oriented shredders (yeah, I know, in this economy whatever sells: blah, blah, blah): which in that case these players are well represented by the current offerings and several other metal-head orientated guitar companies I can think of...which BTW: the point is: does anyone really think those players are interested in a wideneck fingerstyle anything...
Of course, all this is just my humble opinion...yours may differ...I'm just venting and trying not to step on too many toes too hard...
but seriously, what gets the juices flowing more here on this forum: the new O shredder offerings or a new wideneck SB Collings CJ? If O Corp reads this forum (and I sure hope thy do: Hi Folks!), what are they going to think...are we all lemmings blindly following or do we have the ability to think and choose for ourselves? And what choices do we have?
Personally Ovations and the love of Ovations drew me to this site: not other guitars...that's where the majority of my guitar playing loyalty has been for over 35 years...and it still is...sure I like other guitars...but I want to insure that my kids can buy the Ovation of their dreams one day (and yeah, even if its a shredder...shudder the thought): although I hope they will have a choice...and a chance... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by MusicMishka:
Someone mentioned that Ovation should cater to finger-style players? As the author of the comment that started your thread let me clarify one thing ...
What I wrote was actually just a subset of my total thought on the subject. One of the main things that has driven me a little bit away from Ovation (and towards Collings, Takamine and Guild) is that Ovation offers little or no variation in the product lineup. With in a VERY narrow bandwidth they are all pretty much the same. To some people that's a good thing. Not to me.
What I mean is that with VERY few excetions every model is the same body dimensions (OM size), every model is the same nut width, every model is one of 3 body depths, a few variables in soundboard wood, but all back/sides are the same. Where's the choices? Where's the spice of life?
Yes commonality and predictability is good. That makes Ovation a safe bet and easily bought with confidence on the internet. That's not a bad thing. But it's not going to get my juices flowing to invest in a bunch of different models, because they are not really all that different. I went that route years ago and ended up with a tupperware collection (hence the name) consisting of similar containers with different color lids.
Ovation has, does and will continue to make some really nice guitars for the money. I'll always own some and they will always have a place in my heart. But there is just not enough variation in the products to make it exclusive for me anymore. So slap my hand, I've strayed from the nest.
Why Takamine? Like Ovation they are in the "bang for the buck" category. In the 1500-2500 range they offer a wide variety of different models, sizes, woods, configurations, etc. and play/sound fantastic to my own ears. I don't play live much, but I'm blown away by their electronics. Fit, finish and quality are at typically high Japanese levels (no Toyota jokes, please).
Why Collings? They are just in general the best sounding guitars I've ever played and of the highest quality workmanship I have ever seen. Period, end of discussion. It is certaily no coincidence that to my own ears the best sounding Dread in my collection is a Collings, as is the best sounding Jumbo, as is the best sounding OM, the best sound 000 and the best sounding 0. That shit just doesn't happen my accident. Did I mention the mando?
Why Guild? For 8 years I ragged on this forum that given the exceptional skills of the New Hartford factory I would LOVE to see what those guys could do about building a wooden guitar. My dreams got answered with the move of Guild to New Hartford and the results are stunning. My Guild dread is RIGHT THERE with the best of Martin, and others. Top notch quality and a sound to die for. They got it RIGHT, as I suspected they would.
Bottom Line? Variety is good. I've been blessed to play a ton of great guitars in my life and even more blessed that a small handful have been able to be called "mine". Ovation and Adamas included.
Mike, you wrote a GREAT post. Really gets us thinking. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Perhaps one idea to bring this all together would be for Kaman to offer build-your-own guitar options like they do with the Adamas. I understand they need to continue to run their production models, but it would sure be nice to look at a list of options and choose the exact US-Made guitar I'd like. I also know that is already an option if I were to go to Al with my request, but expanding that option through all guitar dealers and the media might just give Ovation a niche in the market. As you have rightly stated ... "people like choices" and a guitar manufacturer that can offer people lots of choices is going to become VERY popular. (Just MY opinion) |
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Location: Flahdaw | As the bittersweet starter of the thread that started this discussion, let me add my two cents worth.
If Ovation doesn't want to cater to fingerstylists, that's fine by me. Lot's of other guitar choices out there. I own 2 very nice wood box wider neck gits right now, and will soon sport something else new. That said, lot's of pickers out there like the narrow necks just fine. Hey, I dealt with them for 20 years til I got a wider neck and "saw the light."
So, Ovation's doing their thing and doing just fine without my help (or my money), so carry on, brudda.
(And for what it's worth, the Collings gits are really superb) |
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Location: NJ | I know something you don't know
na nana naaaaaaa na |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | That's GREAT NEWS, Al!!!
Thanks. |
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Location: Cincinnati | Thanks, Al. You've made my day. I can't wait to share it. |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | What's up Al? School's canceled and you're feeling a little frisky? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Al you promised not to tell that Fender bought the acoustic devision of Gibson and is closing Montana and moving that to Connecticut as well.
That's supposed to be kept real quite for another month. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | :D |
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Location: New Hampsha | Some ramblings:
I'm kinda puzzled about the the perception that there is a lack of diversity in Ovation products?
It's not for lack of trying - I think that Ovation has put forward a bewildering variety on the menu. But we didn't "eat what was on the menu."
Bowls: Contour/deep/shallow/mid/and parlor. (I'm lumping 'artist' bowls with the mids)
Tops: besides the 'normal' tonewoods that other makers use: spruces (englemann, bearclaw, etc.) cedar, and recently Koa; Ovation has led the way in offerering nontradional woods as tops: Tamo ash, cherry, bubinga, lacewood, maple, walnut, redwood, and carbon laminate. And then we can find a variety of plytops and painted tops and snakeskins and bad drug trips....
Paddles and slots with or without broccoli liven up headstocks (I personally find the Martin headstock to be so painfully plain that I couldn't own one for that reason alone.) Narrow and wide necks for both six and twelve strings. Skunk stripes, no stripes, and different woods.
I see a lot a diverse products have been offered, but not bought. I'd be kinda frustrated if I was in Ovation marketing, wondering what I had to offer to hit a home run.
The OFC has seemed to gravitate toward and praise conservative configurations, not the more diverse ones (Fuds and Utes, etc.). I don't remember if or when the OFC has EVER praised a Celebrity. And that goes double for an Applause.
We get what we buy. Plain Janes with black or red tops, or vanilla spruce. That's boring, so maybe I've come around to agree with Dave? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Ovation HAS done a lot with different top tonewoods, I give them that.
The kind of diversity I was talking about is far more profound that a standard vs. carved bridge, or ebony vs. CAB fretboard binding. For example, with the exception of a thousand parlors and three dreads, the other > 1 million ovation guitars have all been the same OM size tops.
Which is FINE, but it's not enough to make me want to buy 2 legends one with an ebony skunk stripe and one with maple and feel like I have two different guitars.
IF, Ovation made a Jumbo I would buy it. I would buy a Dread and I would buy a 00. Might not keep them if they didn't sound good, but I would certainly buy them to see for myself.
But, I think we've been over this story about once every 6 months for the last 8 years or so. Bottom line, Ovation has to make money by selling HUGE numbers of guitars and the few that I or anyone else on this forum might buy aren't gonna make the slightest bit of difference. From a corporate perspective Ovation needs to pick the best horse and ride the hell out of it selling 100's of thousands world wide. Maybe it's a Celeb CC-57. Maybe it's a DJ Ashba, or an Elite-T. What ever it is SELL THE HELL OUT OF IT.
Don't let emotion get in the way of good business sense. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | "I'm kinda puzzled about the the perception that there is a lack of diversity in Ovation products?"
But Dawg, you are speaking historically.
All of the Korean-made Balladeers and Elites are the same guitar... Same nut-width, Same bracing...
Just different holes and colors. Like Dave said, different tupperware lids.
But! You are free to buy other guitars. :eek:
If you want a wider neck, but something with a wider neck.
I can understand why Ovation does not produce that many wide necks...
They believe that most of their customers are electric guitar players who need an acoustic for that ballad intro to "Nothing Else Matters".
[Of course you could buy a Parker, or a Godin, or a VXT!]
You can still buy a Folklore.
[Yeah! What Dave Said! :D ] |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Hey, I get nervous when people start agreeing with me ... |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I love 'em all, and its only a matter of time before I have a nice example of each (with the prerequisite electronics in every one, of course). All other advantages, disadvantages, variety, value vs. quality and exclusivity discussions aside, I find it hard to beat an Ovation or Adamas SSB in comfort for a two hour gig. |
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Location: Vernon CT | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
Hey, I get nervous when people start agreeing with me ... I understand why and Agree! |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | All other advantages, disadvantages, variety, value vs. quality and exclusivity discussions aside, I find it hard to beat an Ovation or Adamas SSB in comfort for a two hour gig. Exactly Brad! |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I've lost track, is everyone agreeing or argueing? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | We call it agrueing |
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm taking a contradictory position |
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Location: Ohio | What was the question?? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I'm just glad the pain meds are helping!
Speedy recovery Mike! |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
I think that Ovation has put forward a bewildering variety on the menu. But we didn't "eat what was on the menu." There are a lot of good points in this thread, I'll use your "ramblings" as a jumping off point.
Bewildering is a good word. It is bewildering to decipher the models. What's a 1778? W597? To be fair, names other brands use such as "Redbird" aren't very descriptive either.
The point is that as a fan it is bewildering even to me what is available. The Ovation website is severely lacking in friendliness to the newbie. This isn't only an O/A problem, many businesses don't have good websites. Try to find a wide neck current production model on their website. Try to find information on out-of-production models on their website. What is the difference between "standard" and "custom", "elite" and "balladeer" and "country artist"? Right now you have to go to each guitar's page and read through a cold list of specs. It isn't easy to notice the differences especially if you aren't already knowlegable.
As to eating from their menu, it seems that there are a lot of different O/A guitars loved amongst this membership. But given our general demographic it makes sense that we gravitate more towards the mid to higher end products.
Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
I see a lot a diverse products have been offered, but not bought. I'd be kinda frustrated if I was in Ovation marketing, wondering what I had to offer to hit a home run. Marketing would help! How about having USA made Ovations on the walls in guitar shops across the country? How about requiring training of sales people at their authorized dealers? A little 10 minute DVD or Youtube would be a good start in training the sales force. How about requiring decent strings be kept on the guitars in the shops? How about hanging a couple of Adamas in the high end room? When was the last time you saw a good selection of Ovations in any store? I have never once seen an Adamas in a store.
The mothership builds a great product! The overseas factory makes a good product for the price, whether it is a "lowly" Applause or a mid level Ovation. I don't think that they need to build anything substantially different to hit a home run, they need to market it.
Originally posted by Mitzdawg:
I don't remember if or when the OFC has EVER praised a Celebrity. And that goes double for an Applause. To some extent you're right, we tend to not praise the lower end products. For the money they are a good value. For the beginner it is a good start. For the guitarist on a budget they are good value. Just because many of us can afford a higher end instrument doesn't mean we should disparage the lower price point instruments. It could be mistaken as guitar snobbery, or worse that we are disparaging the people who cannot afford the nicer instruments. I'm not enough years past buying peanut butter on the credit card (not knowing how I would pay the credit card bill) to feel superior to anybody!
For the record, the little 3/4 size Applause that Sara started with years ago is still a nice little guitar. I would recommend one in a heartbeat to a parent with a child wanting to learn. Sara still uses it as a travel guitar. So there's some praise of an Applause!
If I were to be able to offer a suggestion to the factory, it would be to restructure their websites. On the front page offer photos of the different styles with a brief description underneath. One center hole, one elite style, one panel with several Adamas to take you to the Adamas website. Use maybe 3 or 4 sentences under each picture to describe the product. e.g. Elite series Ovations have multi-hole epaulets instead of the traditional round hole. The LX series has the latest bracing pattern for the clearest, fullest sound. A variety of Elite models are available, find the one that is perfect for you! Click here for more info. Then go to a page that shows different levels of Elites and a brief description of the differences, with links to detailed pages for each model.
The front page shows the basic categories, then the sub pages show the choices within that category, then going deeper one finds lots of detailed specs and options. The potential customer could identify in two clicks which models might be of interest. By the third click they are choosing exactly what they want and imagining owning it.
Al's taunt sounds like good news. |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | It's always a good time for good news. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I just love this place...just when things were getting boring....and Stephen, ;) |
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Location: Michigan | I think flysig nailed it with the marketing. You just don't see the higher end Ovations and Adamas in stores. Hard to sell em if you can't even play them and compare. We can talk all we want about how good they are but when Joe Buyingaguitartoday goes to Guitar Center and picks up an Martin or Taylor and then has to go out to the "regular" guitar room to pick up an Applause...well you get the point. They buy the Martin and post all over places like AGF about how shitty Ovations are.
I also agree that they need more diversity to their product. I know they offer all the different bowl depths but the top size is relativy the same. I quality parlor or size between OM and parlor would be a nice addition if they could get them in the stores.
Getting some big name artists to tour with ovatons would help also. It did in the 70s and would now also. I have seen countless episodes of Elvis Costello's Spectacle and frankly the only acoustic that sounded really good to me plugged in Lyle Lovetts Collings. I know that my Legend and UTE would blow away 90% of the guitars used on that show plugged in. Got to get them in the public eye.
Yes, they do offer all the different tonewoods, but to me there just is not that much difference in sound until you go to the Adamas. I am not saying that the Adamas sound is better but it is far different than the sound you will get from the average deep bowl A braced legend.
Anyway, I am waiting with bated breath for Al's secret..... |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | OK, here's MY take on this: I think there is a WIDE variety of sound available. My 1617 sounds totally different from my LX, which sounds totally different from an Adamas, which sounds totally different from an Elite, etc. (A jumbo might be a good idea though, and I would be the first to buy one!)
I think OMA is right about the (narrow) necks appealing to electric guitarists, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Wide necks are available on some O's, and maybe it would be good to offer more of them, but to say that the wider necks are for fingerstylists doesn't make sense to me. I think no matter what style you play, it is how fat your fingers are that makes the wide/narrow neck option appealing. I know several strummers with big hands who love the wide necks. I know several really good fingerstylists who have smaller hands and so prefer the narrow neck.
And I think Flysig is 100% correct. It isn't lack of tone, playability, looks, or choices that "Ovations don't get the respect they deserve", it is the lack of Ovations in stores. If they had them available for people to try, SO MANY people would choose an Ovation over most brands. I try to keep as many used O's in stock as I can, and they sell quickly. I started buying off the board here less than a year ago. I have bought nine O/A's from here, plus a few that I picked up in my travels. Except for the two I decided to keep, they are all gone. There are other (good!) guitars hanging on my wall that were here before the O's started coming in, and they are still here. There's nothing wrong with any of them, but anyone who has ever played an Ovation WANTS one. Just yeaterday a guy came in specifically looking for an Ovation, and sadly, I was out. (Hey TJ, got anything for me?)
In short, yes, it is marketing, or the lack thereof, which in my opinion, is causing the lackluster image and/or sales. |
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Location: Jet City | +1 on what OMA said.
"You can still buy a Folklore"
And there's 2 different depths too. So....
How many wide necks do you need? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Damon67:
How many wide necks do you need?
Q: How many guitars is enough?
A: Just one more...
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Location: Nîmes, south of France | Originally posted by MusicMishka:
All other advantages, disadvantages, variety, value vs. quality and exclusivity discussions aside, I find it hard to beat an Ovation or Adamas SSB in comfort for a two hour gig. Exactly Brad! |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | For those of us who have toured the Adamas corner of the factory workshop, there shouldn't be any question why we don't see more of these models in the humidified glass rooms at GC. They sell or have already pre-sold every guitar they make, and they don't have any current capability to increase production. To do so requires a lot of investment in time and resources which the execs obviously believe should be directed elsewhere. To a certain extent, the same might apply to the higher end Ovations. Its been a few years since we've been on a tour, but we do know there are some great Guild products coming from that same factory, possibly from the very production lines that may have previously been dedicated to Ovation models. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | When you have as many guitars as Dave, the definition of "variety" might be different from that of normal humans.
I have 4 12 fret Ovations, each very different. I just sold the Country Artist, also very different.
I'm down to only 11 or so other narrow necked Ovations, all very different.
Admittedly, most of these are not new guitars, but they show the variety Ovation has put out over the years. I don't own any other brand of guitar.
And 99.9% of the time I play fingerstyle. If they had any more variety, I'd be in worse trouble. |
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Location: Jet City | Originally posted by stephent28:
Originally posted by Damon67:
How many wide necks do you need?
Q: How many guitars is enough?
A: Just one more...
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Location: Budd Lake, NJ | This is a member of the "Small Hands Club" reporting in--for my friends and cohorts with the ham-hock hands, I truly hope there are a gazillion widenecks in your futures. That would be wonderful for all of you.
But, for me, the reason there are so many cases in my bedroon with salad bowls in them is because those necks are so comfortable for me to play.
Before I had Mother make Jewel, I played quite a few guitars in the $1,500-$3,000 range. (I realize that for some of you, that's not at all high end, but for me it was.) I played Martins, Taylors, Washburns, Guilds, Rainsongs, Ibanezes--if it had six strings I played it, until I was sick of driving, looking, playing and not finding what sounded good and was comfortable. Enter AlPep and Mother--happiness in a super-shallow package.
I agree with what the rest of you have posted, and I hope someone in a suit who makes marketing decisions is reading this thread--people can't buy what they can't experience. I would love to see an LX in my local music store. Have I ever? No. My question is, "Why not?"
--Karen |
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Location: Colorado | Wow - I now own only 5 guitars...each is pretty nice...never saw the need to buy too many more...I really only play one...
1 Adamas 6 - the workhorse
1 Ovation 12 - well - for the fullness
1 Les Paul - well - it is an electric
1 Gibson Chet Atkins - well - it is a nylon
1 Mossman Golden Era - well - it is a dreadnaught...
Covered most of my needs for years.....Al would starve off me....sorry Al.
Am I weird? What was the old saying about the guy with one guitar? |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I wanna know what Al knows. |
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Location: Colorado | Al knows everything - |
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Location: South of most, North of few | but he don't kiss and tell. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | well he doesn't tell, no comment on the other. |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by alpep:
I know something you don't know
na nana naaaaaaa na (sigh!) How much is it going to cost me this time? |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Oh Finally ,.. someone Understands my quest for an Ovi JUMBO , ... Talk`in about Variety ...
Vic |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Unless somebody bought it I thought Al had a jumbo/dread prototype stashed away in his guitar shop. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | I spoke (rather croaked) to Al this AM:
#1: Corporate is definitely watching/reading this forum..(hi again folks!)
#2: There are some cool things afoot at the factory that Al cannot disclose at the moment (that's cool)
#3: Please be patient w/Al: he will let everyone know as soon as possible...
#4: I have discovered that being a patient is a pain in the #&*...SWMBO can clarify and attest to that statement... :rolleyes:
BTW, she's a saint! |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, | Originally posted by alpep:
I know something you don't know
na nana naaaaaaa na Hey MWoody, You need to use the Vulcan mind meld on Al to find out what he knows. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Phil Wong:
Originally posted by alpep:
I know something you don't know
na nana naaaaaaa na Hey MWoody, You need to use the Vulcan mind meld on Al to find out what he knows. |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, |  |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by alpep:
I know something you don't know
na nana naaaaaaa na Are you telling yet? (or did I miss it?) |
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Location: Marlton, NJ | Maybe it was this:
The Big Blowout?
Or is this just the precursor to something bigger? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | "Hey MWoody, You need to use the Vulcan mind meld on Al to find out what he knows."
Sorry,
I keep getting this guy in New Delhi that wants me to "speak more clearly into the receiver please". Since his English is better than mine all I could offer was my sincere gratitude for him to receive my call.
You have to totally understand Alpep and the East Coast method of telling a "really funny" story. First you have to allude that you know a really funny story, but you can't tell it right now. After a period of time when the audience has had a few drinks and they are begging you to tell your story...
It also helps if someone who has heard the story before says something like "Al, tell em your story" or "Ask Al to tell you his really funny story."
So... Alpep has some really cool news to tell you all. Hey Al, tell em your news! |
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Just my 2 cents...FWIW