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November 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Michigan | I stopped by a guitar store the other day and they had and older 1111 on the rack. It was one of the white (creme) colord ones. the neck was perfect and the sound was amazing. I played it next to a couple of vintage martins and they could not hold a candle to it. I noticed there were no electronice so I was wondering how much you think all the electronics, premaps, batteries, etc subracts from the pure acoustic sound? Frankly the paint was pealing but other wise the guitar was in nice shape....mmmm perhaps a project? Anyway any thoughts on the acoustic only models? |
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Joined:
December 2009
Posts: 79
Location: So Cal | IMHO the electronics are so minimal on Ovations. The bridge piezo is well designed and couples the strings to the soundboard very well. I can't imagine the electronics take anything away from an othewise well made acoustic guitar. Many if not most of the older Ovations I have seen were available either with or without electronics. That said, I believe the acoustic versions are just that. Well designed guitars without the electronics. It is possible the space that the pre-amp takes in the bowl diminishes the timber to some small degree but I doubt I could hear it. |
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February 2009
Posts: 194
Location: Huntington Beach | My experience is that the non-electric of the same model is a little mellower "sweeter" than its counterpart. But its a very slight difference. I think my 1617 sounds better now that I have removed the electronics (more bottom) but the piezo bridge is still there. |
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May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | I don't think the issue with A/E models is actually the electronics (pre-amp) per se. Yes, it does decrease the chamber size slightly, but I suspect the impact on tone is minimal.
The real problem is the saddle. Acoustic tone is all about downward energy transfer from string to soundboard and that transfer happens by only one path - the saddle. To achieve best transfer the saddle should be of a fairly dense material and sit absolutely flush to the bottom of the routed saddle slot in the bridge.
The ovation OPP saddle (which is great for pluggd in guitars) places metal, goop, and peizo chrystals in that critical energy transfer path from string to bridge. It is hard for a common sense person to see how this can not impact acoustic tone. I have had the opportunity to own three different "pairs" of guitars: idential ones where one was an acoustic only and the other an acoustic/electric. The difference is more than subtle. Of course the flip side is that the acoustic one sucks plugged in.
So, no Martha your ears are not fooling you. An acoustic/electric guitars does sacrifice some unplugged tome quality. Is it enough to matter? Would 99% of the public notice? Are there far bigger variables?
Another (related) issue is saddle shims. Seems like folks throw shim in their guitars all willy nilly with out even thinking whatit does to the tone. Hell, the factory SHIPS guitars with shims in them. You will NEVER find this on higher end guitars. If you own an ovation acoustic only guitar with shims in the saddle, do yourself a big favor and throw them away. Have a solid saddle shaped to exactly the height you need with a nice flush bridge contact. You will be amazed by the improvement.
Just my opinion. |
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September 2005
Posts: 3619
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Good points Dave. I think the best way to amplify an acoustic guitar would be with a high-end, well-placed condensor mic. |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Dave brings up a VeryGood Point, and it's probably a contributing factor as to why Slot#54(being AcousticOnly) sounds so good . . . |
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Joined:
November 2008
Posts: 1119
Location: Michigan | Did Dave call me Martha?
Thanks for the expanation. It makes sense. I took apart the old saddle on my 1767 and was suprised at all the "goop" or rubbery stuff.
I was just amazed at how crisp that the 1111 sounded sans pick up.
I also agree about the shims. I recently had two ovation plastic shims under the saddle of my UTE. After reading an article about shimming the saddle and how you should never have multiple shims as it dampens the sound, I picked up some ebony and fashoned one shim to the exact thickness of the 2 I was using and I could tell a difference. Not as significant as the 1111 without the saddle vs. my 1767 but...
I wonder how much the vibration of the bowl has to do with the over all sound? It would seem like the weight of all the electronics would dampen the movement and vibration of the back? Any way just a thought but I think your saddle expanation makes more sense than any of it. |
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Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 4996
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by cliff:
Dave brings up a VeryGood Point, and it's probably a contributing factor as to why Slot#54(being AcousticOnly) sounds so good . . . Bastid.
Btw, I used to have a 1615 Pastemaker. I took out the OPP pickup and had a guy mill me a walnut insert that fit perfectly into the wide saddle slot, and then into the insert he routed an acoustic only saddle slot and fit it with a nice boner. Sound was amazing and he got the intonation perfect (not that you could ever tell on a 12-string).
The funny thing was that I sold the guitar on ebay as a regular 1615 acoustic electric and completely forgot to put the original saddle/pickup back in it. And I NEVER heard from the buyer that the "electronics" didn't work. If anyone here bought a 12-string from me and never plays plugged in, you might want to check. You could be the lucky owner of about $200. worth of custom walnut and bone. |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15679
Location: SoCal | The saddle, the vibration of the bowl, the quality of the top, all of these play a factor in the quality of sound of the guitar. Of course, the biggest factor is the bracing.
When I had a new body built for my old Legend, first I specified A bracing. But then I also had a handlaid fiberglass bowl (original type of bowl) made, because they vibrate best. Then I got the best piece of spruce that I could afford, for the best top vibration. Lastly, no electronics and a bone saddle and nut for the best sound transferance.
The saddle came from the factory with a couple of shims under it and I may make a new one so that it won't have any shims.
But the result is an acoustic guitar with what I consider to be, the best tone ever put out by a wood top Ovation. Do I ever regret not putting electronics in it? No because I've got other guitars I can plug in.
If I ever hit so bad an economic turn that I had to sell most of my guitars and could only keep it, I'd put a p/u in it, but not happily because I'd lose some acoustic tone.
I've got my OFC guitar all dialed and I'm looking forward to playing next to Dave's 47 of 47 (what I consider to be his best sounding acoustic). I suspect the 47 will sound slightly better for the reasons Dave spoke about above.
Actually, the most important factor in how a guitar sounds is the player, but I don't want to go there as it means that my guitars are condemmd to sound like ka-ka forever..... |
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Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: Warren,Pa. | I have a '79 Pacemaker that came acoustic-only. I installed an OpPro in it. For the pickup, I installed a bone saddle, and 3 K&K transducers under the soundboard. The acoustic sound is wonderful, and the plugged-in sound is a lot more natural-sounding to me than what I hear from an Ovation pickup. |
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electronics and and acoustic only sound?