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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I am having a problem with my Adamas 1688 12 string that I have never come across before and would appreciate any advise from the technicians on the board that may be able to help...
When I received the guitar I noticed that the high G string wouldn't stay in tune and assumed it was just a bad or worn string. After I changed the strings, the problem persists...
I have looked at all the obvious things... machine head, string sticking in the nut, sloppy winding etc., but this doesn't seem to be the problem.
When I tune the high G string to the lower (thicker) G string of the pair and play it open, the tuning is perfect. As soon as I start freting down the neck, the higher G string gets progressively flatter the higher I go (in relation to the lower thicker G string of the pair). If the string was going sharp, I would think it might be an intonation problem relating to the frets (ie. pulling the string down to the fret would cause it to go sharp), but going flat doesn't seem to make any sense? Also, when I slightly detune the higher G string (so that it is minutely flat when played open...), the pair will sound in tune all the way up the neck.
This has got me completely puzzled. I'm sure someone here must have seen this before?
To play any 12 string guitar out of tune is annoying... but to play an Adamas out of tune is criminal.
HELP!! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Try some nut sauce. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I should have added... The bridge saddle for the G string pair is tipped ever so slightly toward the bass strings. Not sure if this could make any difference or if it wasn't always like this.
When it comes to bridge adjustments on acoustics... I know absolutely zip (but have even less confidence in the local techs to correct it...).
Thanks |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Swap the bridges between your Adamas and your 12-string Legend. Then see if the intonation changes on either/both guitars. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Hi Dave,
Tried graphite in the nut and although it seemed to make the 'out-of-tuneness' more consistent, I still have to detune the higher G string to have the pair play in tune up the neck.
Bridge adjustment? How do you go about sharpening the intonation on an acoustic bridge saddle you can't move forward (to shorten the string length)?
Have never adjusted an acoustic bridge before, but do most of the basic setups on my electrics and basses. The theory is probably the same, right?
Thanks |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Hi Patch,
Interesting idea!!
How hard is it to get the saddle off. What is actually holding it in place? A post attached to the bottom? Friction?
If I did take this to a tech to correct, he wouldn't be fixing the bridge saddle that is there by adjusting it somehow? He would just replace it? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | This thread tells you how to remove the pick up assembly. Nothing to it really, just be a little bit careful and it usually comes right out. Swapping saddles will tell you whether or not that's exactly where the problem is. If it is indeed the case, it's probably easier to just buy another one. Call your local O dealer or just look online.
Of course, if you swap saddles and find no difference, that's a whole other matter. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Sometimes the groove in the nut is not even or too deep which could cause intonation issues. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Stephen... DEAD ON THE MARK!! Thanks!!
I tried slipping a piece of newprint under the string and while it didn't correct the problem, it was somewhat more in tune, making me think this was the right track. So I tried folding the piece of newsprint over on itself (to make it thicker...) and it corrected the problem.
So if the problem is indeed, a slot in the saddle that is too deep, how do I change the saddle. Are these Ovation/Adamas specific (ie. needing to be ordered from MS), or will a reasonably well stocked guitar tech have them on hand... Don't want the guitar tied up for too long.
Also the set of strings that are on there are Martin ultra-lites (mentioned in another thread...) and the high G is a .008 (which seems insanely light to me). Is it possible putting on a set of ? Lites with a .010 (for the high G) might fix this? Is it possible this was caused by a previous owner using a wound high G? |
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Location: out there | If a 12 string is perfectly in tune it doesn't sound like a 12 string, does it? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I usually run 10's or sometimes 11's.
I think 8's would be way too light for an acoustic 12. |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by stephent28:
I usually run 10's or sometimes 11's.
I think 8's would be way too light for an acoustic 12. Ditto. |
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| Definitely nothing lighter than 10's. The nut is cut for 10's so that's probably where intonation problems come in when using narrower strings. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Must have misunderstood...
On the Martin set I have on there now (MARTIN Ultra-Lite M180's), the gauges are .010 to .047. The .008 I mentioned is the high G (of the G pair with the other being a .020). It struck me as a bit odd as well that the lighter of the G strings would be two gauges down from an already light set. These actually sound fine (a bit thinner on the bass end...), if the G would stay in tune. :D
The general concensus was (from the other thread on string gauges...) that the best choice of strings for an Adamas 12 string should be .012 to .054 (possibly an .053 if that is the company's low end choice... as in some Elixir sets). With the most popular brands being Elixir, Adamas and D'Addario's (which are what Adamas' were shipped with in the most recent release). |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Just comparing 12 string sets from different makers and using a .008 (for a high G...) seems to be a Martin-only thing.
Most of the others, including Elixir and DR only go to .009 on their lightest sets.
Probably just a bad combination of a too deep saddle groove and a ridiculously light string. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
The general concensus was (from the other thread on string gauges...) that the best choice of strings for an Adamas 12 string should be .012 to .054 Maybe for a 6-string but I can't believe the consensus for a 12-string was to use 12's. The factory ships out the 12 stringers with 10's.
They even shipped my longneck 12 with 10s which surprised me cause I assumed they would put 11s or 12s on it. |
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Location: closely held secret | I use a 10 for my high G. I've always used the same gauge for the high G and the E's. |
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Location: SoCal | Elixir 12 string "lights" are .010-.047 with a .009 on the high G string.
Like with an electric guitar, "light" has a different meaning with talking 6 string and 12 string. On a 6, it's .012-.053.... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Stephen...
You are correct about the brands and gauges mentioned. This was mistakenly lifted from the 6 string preferences thread.
.............................
Elixirs 80/20 12 string sets are...
Lights .010 - .047 (high G being a .009)
Medium .012 - .053 (high G being a .010)
Heavy .013 - .056 (high G being a .014)
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Adamas 1616 set is
Extra Light .010 - .047 (high G being a .10)
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DR RPL10/12 set is
Not classified by gauge but looks to be comparable to a light .010 - .048 (high G being a .009)
So definitely lots of variance from one to another... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...".
This is pretty much what I tell people about Adamas', so am hoping that the two combined (Elixirs on an Adamas...) will be the magic combo. :D |
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Location: SoCal | Then the question becomes, which Elixirs? The phospher bronze or the original 80/20's? I use the phos/bronze mediums on the Legend deep bowls and the Adamas deep bowl, but the 80/20 mediums on the 87C and 1537. |
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| Don't like Elixirs, sound dead to me out of the box. I'm on a Cleartone EMP kick right now, the only coated strings that last long enough with my body chemistry to justify their cost, and they sound epic on my Adamii. YMMV. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Are elixers spec'd with or without the coating. I mean is an elixer 10 the same as a normal 10? |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...".
This is pretty much what I tell people about Adamas', so am hoping that the two combined (Elixirs on an Adamas...) will be the magic combo. :D Heh, heh!
I used Elixirs exclusively for over ten years. then I caught GAS.
It didn't take long to discover that different guitars, even different O's, apparently have their own string preferences. Nothing but Elixirs seems to work on my 2001 Collector's, same for the redwood 1537, (Maybe it's the redwood tops. I dunno.) so I didn't dump them entirely. But I now have a mix of D'Addario and Elixirs of various gauges and chemistry all of which were matched via trial and error. My 12-string Custom Balladeer even has Martin Silk-n-Steels on it. Whenever I get a new guitar, half the fun is figuring out which strings really suit it.
FWIW, the one that's given me the toughest fight is the D-42. I've got my fifth set on that critter, and it still ain't quite there yet.
GAS can indeed be a slippery slope, but thou shouldst only warily dip thy big, hairy toe into the vagaries of "stringology". :p |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I spoke with a friend of mine about acoustic string preferences (he's tried practically everything, as it seems have most of you...) and he was of the opinion that "... once you try Elixirs, you will never use anything else...". What he probably meant was "Once HE tried elixers, HE will never use anything else." On the other hand there are some people who think elixers suck dead donkey dick. To each their own. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Well, there seems to be more people here that like Elixirs than hate them (and that is saying something...).
I'm sure EVERYONE will agree they ARE over-priced... The bill for strings at the music store must look like the national debt of Bolivia for some of you if you are re-stringing everything with Elixirs, lol.
As to personal taste, I've used D'Addarios on my Legend for years and don't need to look further for that because they sound fine, play well and last an acceptable length of time. They are very predictable and that is the most important thing to me. Now just to get the two Adamas' singing in tune...
G8R... what gauge of Cleartone EMP do you recommend? |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | G8R... went to Cleartone's site and see they only make one gauge for 12 string... .010 - .047
Got it... thanks.
See Cleartone makes a special electric drop-tuning set... now if they only made one for 12 string as well!! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | AW yes Cleartones. Yeah those are NICE! |
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Location: Flahdaw | I like the brightness of Cleartones for "nuclear destruction of America" songs. The warm woodiness of Elixers would be perfect for "cries of death and sorrow" songs. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | This is stupid - different strings for different songs? Come on, I've heard of different strings for different guitars, but what are proposing to do Dark-Bar, stop in the middle of your set and say "Ooops, hang on everybody I just need to change my strings and then we'll launch into the next song". I suspect your post is not serious.
CLICK |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | That's why you have multiple guitars.
Of course you have to change your shirt for the right "look" with each. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | OK, sorry. I misinterpreted his comment. I thought he was actually proposing to use different strings on the same guitar which obviously makes no sense. |
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Location: south east Michigan | The right tool for the right job.
If I wrote about bitterness, dispare and sorrow, I'd want to play a Taylor. Because if I was playing a Taylor, I'd feel bitter and depressed right from the start.
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I'm sure EVERYONE will agree they ARE over-priced... No, actually, I don't agree with that. For what they are and how long they last, I think they are fairly priced.
Don't make generalized statements. But then, weren't you the Canadian who stated that EVERYBODY hated George Bush? Maybe when you say EVERYBODY, you're just making reference to your small circle of friends? |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Slipkid:
The right tool for the right job.
If I wrote about bitterness, dispare and sorrow, I'd want to play a Taylor. Because if I was playing a Taylor, I'd feel bitter and depressed right from the start.
. Wish I had posted this. Cuts to the heart of the matter...... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | OK, Moody... a blanket statement, you're right... RETRACTED!!
They are more expensive... NOT over-priced.
Anybody want to discuss strings and intonation problems?
No...?
I have been instructed NOT to participate in ANY discussions here of a political or personal nature and I intend to honour that agreement.
Will be back when the thread is on topic... |
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Location: Flahdaw | MY post was clearly about strings. Now, if everyone would just follow my example.... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | 2nd place to Darkbar. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I doubt the company that makes elixers thinks they are overpriced. |
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Location: Flahdaw | There's no cut and dried answer as far as strings go.
Green Days "American Idiot" was performed with D'Addarios
The Briefs "Destroy America" was performed using Elixers (worth the extra money, I guess) |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Can anyone provide a link to a thread explaining how to remove and replace a single bridge saddle... or perhaps briefly describe what is involved in case I need to try that... Thanks |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Try the "frets" site. I think they have a lot of "how to" tutorials. |
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Location: Texas | I sure hope I don't regret joining this thread, but…
Avatar4550's original post and most of the discussion in this thread were pretty direct and on-topic. He seems to be exhibiting a new approach to the board which is more in keeping with the general spirit of conversation here.
Now, if other folks who may have different world-views would also just stick to guitars and related matters and try to avoid baiting people into areas of discussion or behaviors that are inappropriate, much more of our time and bandwidth can be spent on Ovations…
Avatar, before yanking your bridge or anything drastic, did you try replacing JUST the problem string with a slightly different gauge/composition/brand string? It is very possible that the intonation problem you describe can be resolved by simply using a heavier string without modifying your setup at all. That might be the simplest solution, and you could determine that with just a couple of changes of one string. As I'm sure you are aware, many folks use custom combinations of strings to get the sound/feel/intonation "just right."
Strings? I generally use Martin Extra Lights (.010-.047) on my acoustic 12-strings, including my Adamas (1598-MEII.) I have not had any problems with them. They meet my two most important criteria; they sound/play nice and are (relatively) cheap.
Now, if you want to have fun with intonation issues with a 12-string, try a stock Ric 360/12. They have a 6-saddle bridge, so you can only adjust each string pair. It takes quite a bit of tweaking and compromise to get the best overall sound. (Although they can be retrofitted with a 12-saddle bridge, which theoretically solves that problem.)
I also think such "issues" are often why some 12's have such a pleasantly distinctive sound… (see my sig…) ;) |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
I doubt the company that makes elixers thinks they are overpriced. They cost 3x's as much and last 5x's longer. Pretty good deal..... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | ... as long as you don't care how they sound. |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
... as long as you don't care how they sound. ....as long as you LIKE how they sound. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Has anyone tried the Martin "Finger Style" 92/8 acoustic strings? |
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Location: Hanau, Hessen, Germany | Originally posted by Slipkid:
The right tool for the right job.
If I wrote about bitterness, dispare and sorrow, I'd want to play a Taylor. Because if I was playing a Taylor, I'd feel bitter and depressed right from the start.
. :D I'm sorry for posting nothing helpful. But this was just too good! I laughed my butt of. Thank you Slipkid xD |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Hi Standing,
Thanks for the suggestion... Will be at the music store tomorrow, so am looking forward to picking up a bunch of strings that I can try (on several guitars, including my fretless).
I think a thicker high G may help somewhat, but am pretty sure the bridge saddle is cut too deep for even a .010, which I am pretty sure is what was on there when I got it. What I did to allow using it temporarily was to move both G strings slightly off their slots. Just enough so the spacing wasn't too weird and the high G was out of it's too deep slot. Not ideal but it works...
As per G8R and Gallerinski's comments, will be trying on the 12 string Adamas, a set of Cleartone's (if... big IF, they stock them...) and if not a set of Elixirs.
Anybody have a preference between the 80/20's and the Phosphor Bronze? I know for certain they carry both of those. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Hey Avatar! Good to see you back on the forum! I apologize for my previous boorish behavior.
Since you asked, I'll give you MY opinion....
I bought ONE set of 80/20's and thought they sounded a little flat, but then I'm a picker and not a strummer. I prefer PB's 'cos they're brighter and each plucked note seems to stand out better. But, to MY ear, they get a little janngley when strummed hard. Maybe 80/20's will hold up to strumming better. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Elixers never go dead because they are already dead when you take them out of the package. Elixers are stiff and uncomfortable compared with Martin PB's. Elixers will make an otherwise great guitar sound dead on the bass strings and unpleasantly twangy on the trebles. And just in case you wanted to know MY opinion, I hate Elixers. Thank you. |
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Location: SoCal | Originally posted by dark bar:
Hey Avatar! Good to see you back on the forum! I apologize for my previous boorish behavior.
Since you asked, I'll give you MY opinion....
I bought ONE set of 80/20's and thought they sounded a little flat, but then I'm a picker and not a strummer. I prefer PB's 'cos they're brighter and each plucked note seems to stand out better. But, to MY ear, they get a little janngley when strummed hard. Maybe 80/20's will hold up to strumming better. Actually, the 80/20's are a brighter string than the phos/bronze.
Alison, don't mince words. What do you really think?
Personally, I like Elixirs and have either the phos/bronze or the 80/20's on almost all my guitars. Different strokes....... |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | It's good to hear from EVERYBODY!! Especially when they are analyzed from a specific style of playing or slightly different viewpoint.
I tend to play most rhythmic-type stuff on 12 string anyway and like a slightly 'jangly' top end, so that might not be a problem.
I could see how someone that did a lot of fingerpicking could get irritated by that though :D |
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Location: Flahdaw | Actually, the 80/20's are a brighter string than the phos/bronze.
Well, that shows you what the hell I know.
Guess I'll stick to my usual stupid posts. |
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12 String Tuning/Intonation Problem?