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| Almost got my ass kicked in the local Guitar Center Last week.I was in the small high end acoustic room(you know the one,all their stores have them), and said out loud that the Martins and Taylors kinda sucked compared to my LX1778.
And by the way,the Gibson's really stunk.Muddy sound,cheap tuners,just a ripoff.
Anyway,an aged 3 chord hippy enlisted the help of the salsman to lecture me on my lousy attitude.
At that point I realized that these stores are afraid of the upper end Ovations.
I bought my 1778LX for 700 bucks at a GC 3 years ago.I would not have traded for any guitar in the room, period.Even the 3200.00 Martin.
They look and play like toys compared to an LX.
We Ovation folks are like a secret club. |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by rigger173:
We Ovation folks... ... have a secret club, Lyrachord! ;) |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | This is why I find most guitar stores very disappointing. You see all these expensive guitars, but when you play them ... Meh. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I find that the non-chain stores tend to have better sounding guitars for whatever brand they happen to be carrying.
Maybe it's the playing atmosphere but overall they just seem to have the "better" guitars. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I know exactly what rigger is referring to...
I was in one of the local 'high end' music stores recently doing their climate controlled, 'expresso bar' acoustic room and was just appalled at what passes for primo acoustics these days.
Along one wall they had approximately 15-20 Taylors and I went through the line and only found one that sounded appreciably better than my iDea guitar (retail price $299 USD...). This guitar had a price tag on it of 3200 CAD!!
The situation improved somewhat when I crossed the room to another wall that was stocked with Larivees. These sounded WAY better, but I was still somewhat depressed at how much the quality of these had fallen since the last time I had tried one in the early 80's.
None of the music stores here in Winnipeg stock Ovations in any great numbers and most of the ones they do have are all lower end.
When I tell people that I use Ovations for acoustics they generally give this 'smirk' (you know the one I mean...). Most have never seen an Adamas (probably never will...) and their acoustic guitar worldview is shaped entirely by what they see in that posh, albeit overpriced glass room...
How very sad... |
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| I support my local "ma 'n pa" music stores, even if it costs me a little more $$. It's worth it to me. GC takes the fun out of getting new gear. If you want a cure for GAS, shop at Guitar Center. All the ones I've been to (Michigan), the employees are like cheap used car salesmen. "Dude, that pedal rocks man, I've been using it for years." Ask about specifics or about anything technical, they look at you like a dog staring at a ceiling fan. They have quantity, but absolutely no quality. I've never come out of that store satisfied with the experience, so I don't shop there anymore.
As for Ovations, I love them. I've received so many compliments on the beautiful sound it makes from people who don't know an Ovation from a Martin. They are there to listen to the music, and they always send compliments. Plus, I love the sound, and that's enough for me.
My $0.02. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I much prefer the small shops. Just wish there were more of them. GC is convenient for replacing consummables in emergencies, and every now and then, if you happen to be there when some kid is dumping his gear for $.10 on the dollar, you might be able to cash in on a deal. I bought a Fender amp for $20 and two speaker stands retailing at over $100 each for $15 for the pair by being in the right place at the right time. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by rigger173:
I realized that these stores are afraid of the upper end Ovations. Really?
GC has the ability to stock upper end Ovations, so there is no risk that it takes away business. If an upper end Ovation steals a sale away from a Taylor or Martin, so what. A sale is a sale and a good business person couldn't give a shit what the actual name on the headstock is.
The brand or model to be afraid of are the ones that your competitor stocks and sells and you do not. You risk people leaving your store and going to the competitor to buy. Maybe for example Guilds are really hot these days and GC isn't a Guild dealer, so they risk people turning away from Taylor and going over to Street Sounds and buying a Guild. That's something to be afraid of.
But afraid of one model/brand that you can carry vs. another model/brand that you can carry is a complete wash. It's all about units sold. If upper end Ovations were hot sellers, GC would be smart enough to stock a ton of them.
The fact that we (the OFC) are all ga-ga about upper end Ovations doesn't necessarily mean that a shop can make a living selling them to the masses.
JMTC |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Quantity vs Quality... Well Put.
There are two GC's in my area... Neither is easily accessible unless you own a car.
I have gone to both of them with plans on trying-out guitars.
They had many guitars, just nothing that I was looking for.
And yeah, the atmosphere was not really appealing.
(All the charm of a Costco or Grocery Outlet) |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | I happen to like the charm of Costco.
All those little old senior citizen women offering me free food......what's not to like! |
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Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Rigger, what you did is like walking in to a biker bar and yelling out that Harleys suck. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | The fact that we (the OFC) are all ga-ga about upper end Ovations doesn't necessarily mean that a shop can make a living selling them to the masses. Unfortunately, the truth hurts! I can think of but a handful of recent posts on the OFC about a New high end Ovation guitar that was recently purchased. In comparison, on the OFC, I can think of many non-Ovation high end guitars that were recently purchased. Even Al has recently commented on the length of time it took for the OFCII to sell out (and if anyone has taken a look at the new retail price for a 1687 on the new website, the OFC II was a bargain and a half).
Before anyone gets their tighty whities in a wad, one's guitar choice is a highly personal one and their business as it should be. From a business point of view, it comes down to basic supply/demand economics: If the demand is not present, the supply will eventually dry up as well...
I know that is not what many of the Ovation lovers want to hear, but it is just plain fact. The point that GC (and other stores) can stock High End O's and A's may be true but it is still a consumer driven industry...proper marketing plays such a huge part in creating the demand.
While I am glad to see the new website, there has to be a market which equates right back to the demand = supply reality...
.02 |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Excellent Post !!! |
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Location: Flahdaw | Seems to me that MOST of the buyers of the upper end O's and A's are reasonably well off 50+ year old white men. Don't see much marketing targeted at that demographic by Ovation. Maybe they should advertise in AARP magazine.
Just heard on the news today that about the only ones spending money right now in this economy are affluent seniors. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | The Guitar Centers and Sam Ash's have pretty much driven out the Mom and Pop music stores in the Cincinnati area. There's essentially one left, although they have six stores in the region and are not quite the local neighborhood music store. It's Buddy Rogers, and they're great music stores. The atmosphere is great, and they don't have pimply faced kids hacking out "Stairway to Heaven" or "Smoke on the Water" ad nauseum on a telecaster (which I always find amusing, because these kid's DADDIES were gleams in their daddy's eye when those songs were written). Buddy's is a great place to go for accessories and supplies.
Unfortunately they don't stock Ovations. Of any kind - low or high end.
I use a CS 257 and an Ibanez AEF 18 TVS for playing out, and a wonderful '71 Balladeer and mint '74 Pacemaker for recording. Those two old Ovations, for my money, have more tone than those high-enders hanging on GC's walls.
As far as it goes, I'd have to go 50 miles up the road to Dayton to find places where I would have a decent selection of high-end Ovations to choose from.
Supply and demand... |
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| You might be on to something, db. I came a cross a glossy mag at the bookstore the other day, can't remember the name of it. It was ostensibly about (high-end) guitars, but clearly targeted to the "successful" middle-aged guy. There were as many, if not more, beautifully photographed advertisements for high-end audio components, expensive wine & liquor, fine cigars, and expensive sports cars as there were about guitars. All of the ads featured well-dressed, graying-temple men with hot young women on their arms, looking at their sugar daddies with adoring & more than slightly lusting gazes. The publishers know exactly what demographic they want to attract. Ovation could advertise the Adamas line there, since the whole mag is aimed at men trying to recapture their lost yute. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I think the point about supply and demand is valid, but just once I would like to go into a guitar shop and see two Adamas' for every five Taylors.
If that shop existed somewhere, I'm fairly certain, within a year those numbers would be reversed...
You can't buy something that isn't there.
I don't know what the spending demographic in the States is (with the economy the way it is...), but here in Canada it is the 25-30 year old educated singles, with good jobs that are driving the economy. They have TONS of money to blow and are very into toys. Give them the option of taking home an Adamas (rather than an over-priced wooden box...) and they probably will!! |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by dark bar:
reasonably well off 50+ year old white men. You forgot attractive... |
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Location: Cicero, NY | And humble... |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Waskel:
Originally posted by dark bar:
reasonably well off 50+ year old white men. You forgot attractive... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Attractive old rich white guys would limit the market too much. If you include humble, Weaser would be the only one left.
GC obviously caters to the younger crowd and seems to want to push Taylors as the preferred acoustic. I've seen the salespeople steer customers away from Ovations with the "it slips off your knee crap" to a Taylor or Martin. The only new Ovation our local GC has had in years is the iDea and no one there knew how to work the preamp. If the salespeople have no interest in selling the guitars, the only buyers will be old farts like me who occasionally see a deal. OK for me, but not good for the brand. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | If EVERYbody liked 'em, WE wouldn't be so special... |
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Location: closely held secret | You still would be, Phil. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Just my $.02 worth, but some of these comments are based on a presumption that Ovation has an over abundant supply of new Adamas models that they need to move, or that they otherwise want or need to produce and sell more. I'm not sure I subscribe to this thinking. Last time I toured the factory, the Adamas custom shop consisted of a couple of workbenches in the corner. There were 2 or maybe three people working in the area. It looked like there were maybe a dozen models in the process of being built. With such limited resources and labor-intensive processes in place, I'm not sure Ovation wants to increase their production of Adamas models. If they're able to sell most everything else off their product lines, maybe they don't need to sell more Adamas models. Maybe they can't afford to increase production. I do know that at present, if you want a new custom Adamas, they will still make one for you, and for that, I am grateful. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Small observation...It might truly be ALL in the marketing.
The nearest store to me is Daddy's Junky Music...a small to mid-size chain. They have high-end guitars ONLY when they take them in trade. I've recently seen, expensive Taylors, Martins, Larrivees, and...Ovations (though no Adamii).
I've lusted after 'em, and tried to bargain -- to no avail -- for them. The reason they won't haggle: these guitars NEVER last more than two weeks in the store. I've watched some VERY nice slightly higher-end Ovations (Elites, usually) come in and go out, each in only a couple of days.
I've asked Daddy's personnel several times why they have so few high-end Ovations, and the answer is always: They don't sell.
Armed with my Ovation obsevations, I've challenged the two seemingly contradictory statements -- (1) We won't bargain because high-end guitars sell quickly enough, and (2) we don't have high-end Ovations because they don't sell quickly enough -- and I receive only a blank look.
Gotta get some Ovation awareness out there! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Maybe the GC "issue" is Ovation/Fender and not GC.
Maybe Ovation/Fender doesn't WANT to promote and sell the higher end stuff because they make way more profit selling 4 Celebrities than they would selling 1 Legend.
My own job is EXACTLY like that. Our newest high tech stuff is cool as hell, but has crappy margins. Still recouping R&D costs and Mfg startup costs. My bonus is actually weighted towards selling the LOW TECH stuff because it's an absolute cash cow for the company. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Makes good sense. I wonder if John or Kim would be willing to let us in on the answer to the question: "Which are the better margin guitars?" Might go a long way to alleviating some OFC frustration. Or exacerbating it. |
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Location: closely held secret | Well, gosh, that's a tough one...
I guess I would have to say "the ones mass-produced in Asia" over "the ones hand-built in CT". |
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Location: Cicero, NY | I would seriously doubt that anyone at Fender would let a fan club even slightly into their financials. |
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| I wonder if John or Kim would be willing to let us in on the answer to the question: "Which are the better margin guitars?" Might go a long way to alleviating some OFC frustration. Or exacerbating it. Really? You actually expect that the CS representatives who've been with KMC for decades before FMIC took over would commit career suicide by publicizing FMIC business practices to "alleviate...frustration" of a bunch of aging guitar homos who won't shell out the money for a NEW Ovation or Adamas, but who WILL buy, trade, sell, re-buy, and re-sell ad infinitum et ad nauseum the same 30-year-old guitars to one another? Really? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by ProfessorBB:
Just my $.02 worth, but some of these comments are based on a presumption that Ovation has an over abundant supply of new Adamas models that they need to move, or that they otherwise want or need to produce and sell more. I'm not sure I subscribe to this thinking. Last time I toured the factory, the Adamas custom shop consisted of a couple of workbenches in the corner. There were 2 or maybe three people working in the area. It looked like there were maybe a dozen models in the process of being built. With such limited resources and labor-intensive processes in place, I'm not sure Ovation wants to increase their production of Adamas models. If they're able to sell most everything else off their product lines, maybe they don't need to sell more Adamas models. Maybe they can't afford to increase production. I do know that at present, if you want a new custom Adamas, they will still make one for you, and for that, I am grateful. ding ding ding..
I find these discussions interesting. There is always "more sales is better" attitude, mostly from people who do NOT own businesses. I don't know of any warehouses holding 100's or 1000's of high-end Ovations. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, they sell every one they make. THAT is the ONLY thing that really counts.
As long as they keep selling every one they make, Ovation's will be around for a long time to come. |
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Location: Newington, CT | Originally posted by G8r:
I wonder if John or Kim would be willing to let us in on the answer to the question: "Which are the better margin guitars?" Might go a long way to alleviating some OFC frustration. Or exacerbating it. Really? You actually expect that the CS representatives who've been with KMC for decades before FMIC took over would commit career suicide by publicizing FMIC business practices to "alleviate...frustration" of a bunch of aging guitar homos who won't shell out the money for a NEW Ovation or Adamas, but who WILL buy, trade, sell, re-buy, and re-sell ad infinitum et ad nauseum the same 30-year-old guitars to one another? Really? |
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Location: Newington, CT | Ya never know until ya ask. |
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | Personally, I couldn't care less what Fender's margins are on the sales of their better quality guitars, versus their offshore models... They are simply the 'caretakers' of a long and distinguished tradition.
The argument is pretty simple... Everyone wants to support a WINNER!! By choosing to buy, play and covet Ovations, we are already in THAT group.
End of...
Taylor users can lineup, single-file... from here to China and no one would ever convince me their guitars were preferable.
We should all take solace in being able to recogize each other when we meet (being 'guitar homos'...as G8R stated), wink knowingly and share in one of the longest running gags ever perpetrated on the guitar buying community...
"Yeah, buddy... that (wooden box... fill in the blank) sounds just AWESOME... This is a really GREAT store... They stock ten different brands of acoustic guitars and the all look and sound EXACTLY the SAME!! Couldn't ask for more than that..."
;) |
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Location: south east Michigan | I've discussed Ovations with the owner of our very nice local store.
He knows Adamas and the high end Ovations are great guitars. The bottom line, as he stated it, was that he just can't get people to spend 2k, (let alone 3k for the 30th)... on any kind of Ovation. No bias against Ovation, just basic business. |
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| Going back to the original post on this, makes me kind of sorry I don't have any GCs nearby. That might be kinda fun... |
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Guitar Center scene